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  #151  
Old 08-27-2019, 04:11 PM
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It's sad that SJWs had to take over and use these films for virtue signalling.
You are just embarrassing yourself.
  #152  
Old 08-27-2019, 11:21 PM
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You are just embarrassing yourself.
That's not even....wait...what?? Virtue signalling in a piece of fiction? I guess its possible, but its difficult enough to define IRL. I mean....you could have Rian Johnson cameo as a bounty hunter in his ship "Hommeorangemal"....and I don't think its virtue signalling.

I don't *think* you can virtue signal in a metaphor or analogy. Isn't the point of virtue signalling to be unequivocal in your action?
  #153  
Old 08-28-2019, 12:06 AM
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Social justice isn't really a bad thing, but virtue signalling to encourage that makes films dreary, especially given Rey's Mary Sue character. What they could have done was make Rey vulnerable and weaker, and throughout the three films, she matures and becomes a hero. That way, her character is developed and audiences sympathize with her.
  #154  
Old 08-28-2019, 12:36 AM
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given Rey's Mary Sue character.
This is no more a "given" than the last time this bullshit was brought up.
  #155  
Old 08-28-2019, 02:08 AM
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I have a question....and I'm asking not cause I think Rey is a Mary Sue...but because I feel like these last two films are so bizarrely structured. We're going in to the third film, and i STILL feel like I don't know shit about these characters or even what is going on re: the state of the galaxy.

So my Q is: What are Reys flaws? Don't give me head canon or fanwank. From the films what are her flaws?* Going into the ROTJ we saw Luke as whiny, impetuous, head-strong, impatient.

*I'm not saying she has none. I can think of maybe a couple. At least one.
  #156  
Old 08-28-2019, 02:27 AM
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She's not whiny, but "impetuous, head-strong, impatient" could all apply. She's a bubbling mess of insecurities re: her parentage. She has major abandonment issues. She's a bit of a fantasist too - regarding her parents coming back etc.

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  #157  
Old 08-28-2019, 02:31 AM
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She's not whiny, but "impetuous, head-strong, impatient" could all apply. She's a bubbling mess of insecurities re: her parentage. She has major abandonment issues. She's a bit of a fantasist too - regarding her parents coming back etc.
Insecurity was the one I had thought of.
  #158  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:13 PM
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I was hoping, going into Episode 8, that they'd flip the script and have Rey turn evil so Kylo/Ben could redeem himself by turning back to the light to defeat her.

I don't think they've got the guts to actually do that, but the teaser footage keeps that as a possibility.
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  #159  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:18 PM
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I was hoping, going into Episode 8, that they'd flip the script and have Rey turn evil so Kylo/Ben could redeem himself by turning back to the light to defeat her.

I don't think they've got the guts to actually do that, but the teaser footage keeps that as a possibility.
No chance in hell. Star Wars is and always has been a kids' movie at heart. They won't take a hero to little girls everywhere and make her evil. It's not lack of guts that stops them; it would be a complete betrayal of their audience to do so.
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Old 08-28-2019, 07:39 PM
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No chance in hell. Star Wars is and always has been a kids' movie at heart. They won't take a hero to little girls everywhere and make her evil. It's not lack of guts that stops them; it would be a complete betrayal of their audience to do so.
That's a good point. I still think it would make a better story. She wouldn't need to die; she could be seduced by the Dark Side then turn back a la Vader.

I guess the next best thing is the idea that there are multiple Rey clones (foreshadowed in Ep. 8) and one is already a Palpatine apprentice/vessel.
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  #161  
Old 08-28-2019, 08:56 PM
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How's this for crazy. At the end of Episode IX, Rey and Kylo stop their swordfighting and say "Maybe we can join together and end this destructive conflict". Then knock off the Emperor who's likely watching (and cackling).

There's stormtroopers and First Order tech for the military/security, experienced Imperial Officers can be administration (figuring they're educated leaders). Likely doing a better job that the 15 remaining rebels. There's now no Snoke or Emperor pulling evil Dark Side strings. No Luke say Light is always the better side.

I thought of this remembering a novel called "Death Star", where it focused on average joes working the Death Star. There were contractors, restaurant owners, professional military gunners, architects, etc. Then about 3/4 of the way through, Lucas must've read a draft and reminded the author "Remember, the Empire is EVIL". Then suddenly, the main characters decided to join the Rebellion.
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  #162  
Old 08-28-2019, 09:38 PM
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This is no more a "given" than the last time this bullshit was brought up.
The thread doesn't counter my argument, i.e., if you saw the films and realized she's not just a "kick-ass" fighter but can achieve what Jedi knights, ship pilots like Solo, and using the force with little or no training. That's obviously a Mary Sue.

There were actually attempts to develop her character, with the most memorable for me involving her acting like an urchin in the desert, eating scraps of food and playing with helmets.

There is obviously a problem with writing for these recent films, and lack of character development is only part of it.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:45 PM
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She's not whiny, but "impetuous, head-strong, impatient" could all apply. She's a bubbling mess of insecurities re: her parentage. She has major abandonment issues. She's a bit of a fantasist too - regarding her parents coming back etc.
These appear to be padded on to her character and are barely mentioned or shown throughout the films. Even her training takes place only once, and after that she is shown to be able to achieve many things fairly quickly (how else can one sell a tent-pole flick to international audiences except by cramming the films with as much spectacle as possible, including as many chase and fight scenes as possible?), and for that is liked by generally everyone on her side. Obviously a Mary Sue.

FWIW, similar problems appear in other characters and even in recent films of other Hollywood franchises.
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Old 08-28-2019, 10:02 PM
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OMFG, Rey is no more a "Mary Sue" than Luke is a "Gary Stu" so STFU.
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  #165  
Old 08-29-2019, 05:40 AM
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  #166  
Old 08-29-2019, 09:14 PM
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OMFG, Rey is no more a "Mary Sue" than Luke is a "Gary Stu" so STFU.
Luke struggles throughout the three movies, and even that continues in the new films. Rey is close to formidable from the first movie onward. That's why one cannot sympathize with her character because there's almost no internal conflict or vulnerability.

And that's just one of several major writing problems with the new movies.
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Old 08-30-2019, 03:39 AM
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These appear to be padded on to her character and are barely mentioned or shown throughout the films.
That's funny, I thought the movies (and Ridley as an actor) did a very good job of showcasing her insecurities. And her prickly independence. Maybe you saw a different cut from what I saw?
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Even her training takes place only once, and after that she is shown to be able to achieve many things fairly quickly
You mean like how Luke blew up the Death Star using the Force, and moved a lightsaber with his mind, after exactly 1 (sword-fighting) lesson?

Personally, I think she got her Force proficiency from the 2-way mind link with Ben. She only displayed actual Force proficiency after that, before that it was just the "undercover" piloting and fighting. And Ben is shown to be Force-proficient in a way no Force user had on film - he froze a frigging blaster bolt!
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and for that is liked by generally everyone on her side.
She's a Force user willing to fight on the Good side, I hear those are in short supply. Plus she's shown as fairly empathetic. And as coming from some pretty shitty beginning circumstances. And she's an attractive-looking young person. Liking her isn't some mind control superpower, especially for a) young men like Flynn and Poe and b) parental figures like Leia and Han. I know I was sold on her as soon as she saved BB8.

Also, note that Luke never really seems to move beyond prickly irritation and distrust of her Dark Side potential. So good thing you had the "generally" in there.
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FWIW, similar problems appear in other characters and even in recent films of other Hollywood franchises.
Let me just take a wild guess - Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, right?
  #168  
Old 08-30-2019, 06:45 AM
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T
Let me just take a wild guess - Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, right?
Wonder Woman no. Her character was very well developed and engaging. Captain Marvel definitely. Just insanely overpowered and not well directed. That's the main problem with Rey, of course, not so much the character herself as much as the piss-poor writing and direction by Johnson.
  #169  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:09 AM
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Captain Marvel definitely. Just insanely overpowered
If anything, she's quite underpowered in the film compared to her most amped comics powerset.

But I really was more interested in who ralfy had in mind.

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  #170  
Old 08-30-2019, 07:18 AM
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That's nonsense, of course. What Johnson was attempting to do was expand the inherent Star Wars concept of a 'chosen few' into the actual reality that rebellions and power aren't inherent in a few but, rather, in the hands of many, many people moving in concert.

You don't know over evil empires with one person making a kill run. You knock them over when large parts of a population realize their own inherent power.

Yes, it's antithetical to what Star Wars has presented in the past. On the other hand, it's a hell of a lot more grown up and mature. And trying to get that out there is one of the better moments we've gotten out of the new movies.

Seriously, depending on the day the fan boys are either complaining that The Force Awakens is TOO similar to Episode IV or that The Last Jedi isn't 'what Star Wars is all about'.
  #171  
Old 08-30-2019, 08:45 AM
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Regarding Rey and how well she did against Kylo Ren, I always interpreted that as revealing more about how much Kylo was lacking rather than how powerful Rey is. My guess is that Kylo Ren would probably lose a duel with any of the major Jedi or Sith from episodes I-VI, and that it wouldn't even be close except maybe against old Obi-Wan or Luke from ANH. Even Finn managed to land a glancing blow on him. My guess is he'd probably be an even match against one of the Jedi mooks that Palpatine took out in episode III when the Jedi went to arrest him.

As for episode IX, I'm hoping that they finish things off well but I'm expecting to be disappointed. I was really disappointed by episode VIII, and while IX seems to be going in a different direction, it doesn't seem like it's a better one. One major issue I have is with the teasing that Palpatine might be back. IMHO in the world of Star Wars dead is dead other than force ghosts. If Palpatine can come back why not Vader, Obi-Wan, Mace Windu, Luke, or any one else you could think of that might be "cool" to bring back. And yes, I'm also disappointed at Darth Maul having not really been dead as of the end of episode I.
  #172  
Old 08-30-2019, 09:19 AM
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That's nonsense, of course. What Johnson was attempting to do was expand the inherent Star Wars concept of a 'chosen few' into the actual reality that rebellions and power aren't inherent in a few but, rather, in the hands of many, many people moving in concert.

You don't know over evil empires with one person making a kill run. You knock them over when large parts of a population realize their own inherent power.

Yes, it's antithetical to what Star Wars has presented in the past. On the other hand, it's a hell of a lot more grown up and mature. And trying to get that out there is one of the better moments we've gotten out of the new movies.

Seriously, depending on the day the fan boys are either complaining that The Force Awakens is TOO similar to Episode IV or that The Last Jedi isn't 'what Star Wars is all about'.
You wont find this fan complaining about The Force Awakens being too similar to Episode IV. I thought that was one of the things that made it good. I will, however, say that Im one of the fan boys who complains about The Last Jedi not being what Star Wars is about.
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:38 AM
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That's nonsense, of course. What Johnson was attempting to do was expand the inherent Star Wars concept of a 'chosen few' into the actual reality that rebellions and power aren't inherent in a few but, rather, in the hands of many, many people moving in concert.

You don't know over evil empires with one person making a kill run. You knock them over when large parts of a population realize their own inherent power.

Yes, it's antithetical to what Star Wars has presented in the past. On the other hand, it's a hell of a lot more grown up and mature. And trying to get that out there is one of the better moments we've gotten out of the new movies.

Seriously, depending on the day the fan boys are either complaining that The Force Awakens is TOO similar to Episode IV or that The Last Jedi isn't 'what Star Wars is all about'.

No, that's not accurate at all. Longtime, hardcore fans of Star Wars are not complaining TFA is too similar, that would be people who are casual fans who just realize that the movie is an intentional soft reboot. The hardcore fans complain about TLJ and rightly so, but casual fans do as well. It's a bad movie. Badly scripted, badly directed and poorly paced. The dialogue is nonsensical inanity and it basically ignores everything that happened before it, not just in TFA but the whole saga. There are beautiful SFX sequences in the movie and some of the fights are well done, but as a story, it fails hard.
  #174  
Old 08-30-2019, 12:32 PM
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No, that's not accurate at all. Longtime, hardcore fans of Star Wars are not complaining TFA is too similar, that would be people who are casual fans who just realize that the movie is an intentional soft reboot. The hardcore fans complain about TLJ and rightly so, but casual fans do as well. It's a bad movie. Badly scripted, badly directed and poorly paced. The dialogue is nonsensical inanity and it basically ignores everything that happened before it, not just in TFA but the whole saga. There are beautiful SFX sequences in the movie and some of the fights are well done, but as a story, it fails hard.
This hardcore fan (ever since seeing ROTJ in the theater as a kid) loved TLJ and thought it was the best of the series since ESB. Why not just speak for yourself? There's no consensus among fans, whether casual or long time.
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Old 08-30-2019, 01:26 PM
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Yeah this authoritative tone of declaring how bad TLJ was is ridiculous. Not everyone agrees, so maybe speak more about your opinion rather than what *is*, since you only speak for yourself.

I saw TLJ and really liked it. Then I heard all of the complaints and went my second time trying to be more critical, but nope, I still really liked it.

Sorry. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Trying to act like you speak for everyone is pretty off putting to be honest.
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  #176  
Old 08-30-2019, 02:16 PM
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One major issue I have is with the teasing that Palpatine might be back.
Yeah... it's pretty much just the one Star War, isn't it?
  #177  
Old 08-30-2019, 04:18 PM
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Yeah this authoritative tone of declaring how bad TLJ was is ridiculous. Not everyone agrees, so maybe speak more about your opinion rather than what *is*, since you only speak for yourself.

I saw TLJ and really liked it. Then I heard all of the complaints and went my second time trying to be more critical, but nope, I still really liked it.

Sorry. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is. Trying to act like you speak for everyone is pretty off putting to be honest.
Yeah, and that's really my issue.

I'd certainly be considered a hard core fan. I was ten years old when the first movie came out - go 1977! - and have seen them too many times to count as well as read the books, seen the shows, done the cons and suchlike.

But anytime ANYone speaks authoritatively about 'the fans' I know they're speaking nonsense. The Star Wars fanbase is wide and diverse and capable of liking and disliking many things - some at the same time - and flying off in all directions.

I get it. You didn't like TLJ. You've made that plain before. But to assume that all hardcore fans do so - instead of just like-minded people on the Internet - is just silly.

Me, for instance. As I said, Johnson attempted to do something that the movies desperately needed: something different in terms of story and pacing. Also something very political in trying to restate the underlying premise of what the force should be. I find all of that to be a good thing. What I would find bad is believing that something should be the same or always punch the same buttons.

As far as TFA goes, I also don't really agree that it was either a soft reboot or a copy of SW. People making that argument should really learn more about narrative structure and storybuilding and realize that the role it had to play - part one of a three act play set in a specific milieu - is going to have specific features and story beats. If it hadn't - and there are ways not to do that but Abrams isn't really a risk-taking creator - we'd be listening to people complain that is WASN'T enough like SW.
  #178  
Old 08-30-2019, 05:44 PM
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You mean like how Luke blew up the Death Star using the Force, and moved a lightsaber with his mind, after exactly 1 (sword-fighting) lesson?
Luke had years to develop that. ESB takes place years after Star Wars, (YES ITS STAR WARS! No New Hope shit!)

And *that* is The last Jedis greatest failing. It takes place pretty much immediatly after TFA and plays like a very expensive and pretty TV episode. Character-wise almost everyone spins their wheels. I still have no idea what The First Order is. Very little about Po, and so on and so on.
Im not saying TLJ is bad....but by the end, I just didn't feel anymore engaged in the overall story then I did in the beginning.

I'm thinking Rise of Skywalker takes place in real time but I dread what could possibly lead them....what macguffin could have them return to that Endor moon. Maybe they need Kyber crystals?
  #179  
Old 08-30-2019, 06:12 PM
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I like both the Force Awakens and the Last Jedi. I like how they redirect the story from the old characters to the new characters. I like how the Force is portrayed. I like the pacing. I like the action. For me, Star Wars is not about the fiddly details, it's about how it makes me feel when I watch. I come away from watching the movies thinking, "yes, I'm glad I watched that again". I'm sorry that not everyone has that.

I don't care about Mary Sue arguments for characters I empathize with. An author's wish fulfillment can fulfill my wishes too.
  #180  
Old 08-31-2019, 09:20 AM
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Yeah this authoritative tone of declaring how bad TLJ was is ridiculous. Not everyone agrees, so maybe speak more about your opinion rather than what *is*, since you only speak for yourself.
You can like a movie and it can still be objectively bad. There are objective criteria in movie-making. Failing to meet those doesn't make it a movie no one will like, but it does make it poorly made. Pacing is a thing. Maintaining tension is a thing. Internal consistency in a story is a thing. TLJ fails at all three on an objective level. That doesn't mean no one will like it, it means the director/writer (same guy in this case) didn't do as good a job as he should have at fundamental things.
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Old 08-31-2019, 09:30 AM
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You can like a movie and it can still be objectively bad. There are objective criteria in movie-making. Failing to meet those doesn't make it a movie no one will like, but it does make it poorly made. Pacing is a thing. Maintaining tension is a thing. Internal consistency in a story is a thing. TLJ fails at all three on an objective level. That doesn't mean no one will like it, it means the director/writer (same guy in this case) didn't do as good a job as he should have at fundamental things.
These are your opinions, not objective facts. It's extremely obnoxious and condescending to declare your opinion on a movie to be objective fact.
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Old 08-31-2019, 11:15 AM
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These are your opinions, not objective facts. It's extremely obnoxious and condescending to declare your opinion on a movie to be objective fact.
If you say so.
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Old 08-31-2019, 11:20 AM
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If you say so.
Thanks! Glad to settle this. It's okay to have different opinions on Star Wars movies, and there's no objective answer to their quality and enjoyability as movies.
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Old 08-31-2019, 11:30 AM
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If you say so.
He's not the only one that says so.
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Old 08-31-2019, 12:32 PM
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He's not the only one that says so.
That must mean he's right then. Glad that's settled.
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Old 08-31-2019, 01:11 PM
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That must mean he's right then. Glad that's settled.
And the great thing is that if I'm right, it means your opinion is perfectly valid! And so is mine, and so is every one else's.
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Old 08-31-2019, 01:19 PM
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There are objective criteria in movie-making. Failing to meet those doesn't make it a movie no one will like, but it does make it poorly made. Pacing is a thing. Maintaining tension is a thing. Internal consistency in a story is a thing.
Can you give me the metrics for "pacing"? Is there a "tension maintenance" scale, and if so, is it linear or logarithmic? Is the statistical spread of "internal consistency" best measured by σ, or a median measure?
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Old 08-31-2019, 01:53 PM
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And the great thing is that if I'm right, it means your opinion is perfectly valid! And so is mine, and so is every one else's.
Cool.
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Old 09-01-2019, 01:10 AM
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That's funny, I thought the movies (and Ridley as an actor) did a very good job of showcasing her insecurities. And her prickly independence. Maybe you saw a different cut from what I saw?

You mean like how Luke blew up the Death Star using the Force, and moved a lightsaber with his mind, after exactly 1 (sword-fighting) lesson?

Personally, I think she got her Force proficiency from the 2-way mind link with Ben. She only displayed actual Force proficiency after that, before that it was just the "undercover" piloting and fighting. And Ben is shown to be Force-proficient in a way no Force user had on film - he froze a frigging blaster bolt!
She's a Force user willing to fight on the Good side, I hear those are in short supply. Plus she's shown as fairly empathetic. And as coming from some pretty shitty beginning circumstances. And she's an attractive-looking young person. Liking her isn't some mind control superpower, especially for a) young men like Flynn and Poe and b) parental figures like Leia and Han. I know I was sold on her as soon as she saved BB8.

Also, note that Luke never really seems to move beyond prickly irritation and distrust of her Dark Side potential. So good thing you had the "generally" in there.

Let me just take a wild guess - Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel, right?
There was almost nothing about Rey that shows her weaknesses. In fact, many of the other characters in the same movies lack development.

For Luke, that was only one battle. You obviously missed the next two movies, not to mention the recent ones!

About your last point, I'm not sure about Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel, but I'm referring to cardboard cutout characters in movies that focus heavily on spectacle. In contrast, there are characters like Ripley and the crew of Alien, Christopher Reeves' Superman and the fantastic scene where he flies with Margot Kidder's Lois Lane, and so on.
  #190  
Old 09-01-2019, 09:54 AM
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There was almost nothing about Rey that shows her weaknesses.
So you missed her looking at that older scavenger woman (i.e. her probable future), the prickly way she didn't want Finn's physical help, the way she had to fight her own fantasies of parental reunion just to leave Jakku...all of that in the first movie? Never mind all that mirror and Dark Side stuff in the second...
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For Luke, that was only one battle. You obviously missed the next two movies
No, you "obviously" seem to have missed that the second part of my example was, in fact, from the second movie. Still only after that one lesson on the Falcon.
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About your last point, I'm not sure about Wonder Woman or Captain Marvel, but I'm referring to cardboard cutout characters in movies that focus heavily on spectacle. In contrast, there are characters like Ripley and the crew of Alien
So, you say Ripley's more than a cardboard cutout - tell me, what does she like to do in her spare time? I know what Rey does...
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, Christopher Reeves' Superman and the fantastic scene where he flies with Margot Kidder's Lois Lane, and so on.
Did nothing for me, sorry. "Can you read my mind" is just so much 70s cheese. Superman and Lois are together in that film because they're together in the comics, not because of any believable chemistry there. Don't get me wrong, I like Reeve's Superman, but his relationship with Lois never worked for me, even as a kid.

Last edited by MrDibble; 09-01-2019 at 09:58 AM.
  #191  
Old 09-01-2019, 11:33 AM
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Did nothing for me, sorry. "Can you read my mind" is just so much 70s cheese. Superman and Lois are together in that film because they're together in the comics, not because of any believable chemistry there. Don't get me wrong, I like Reeve's Superman, but his relationship with Lois never worked for me, even as a kid.
This 3000.

Lana always worked better for me.

By the way....I just realized that "Lois Lane, Superman's Girlfriend" and "Jimmy Olsen, Superman's Best Friend"....are titled from the delusions of said characters.

Man, bring those series back as Vertigo titles cause that's come surreal shit to give two delusional people their own 100+ comic-book run.
  #192  
Old 09-01-2019, 01:01 PM
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This 3000.

Lana always worked better for me.
Yes! And not just because I prefer Annette Toole over Margot Kidder.
  #193  
Old 09-02-2019, 09:51 PM
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So you missed her looking at that older scavenger woman (i.e. her probable future), the prickly way she didn't want Finn's physical help, the way she had to fight her own fantasies of parental reunion just to leave Jakku...all of that in the first movie? Never mind all that mirror and Dark Side stuff in the second...
No, you "obviously" seem to have missed that the second part of my example was, in fact, from the second movie. Still only after that one lesson on the Falcon.
So, you say Ripley's more than a cardboard cutout - tell me, what does she like to do in her spare time? I know what Rey does...

Did nothing for me, sorry. "Can you read my mind" is just so much 70s cheese. Superman and Lois are together in that film because they're together in the comics, not because of any believable chemistry there. Don't get me wrong, I like Reeve's Superman, but his relationship with Lois never worked for me, even as a kid.
Very light attempts in showing Rey's vulnerable side, in contrast to the manner by which Luke's character was shaped. In fact, Luke remains vulnerable even in the new movies.

Spare time? That's your idea of character development? No wonder you are still enchanted by this Mary Sue.

As for what you see as "cheesy," I'm not surprised, especially your view that it is merely meant to show chemistry between the two.
  #194  
Old 09-03-2019, 02:23 AM
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Very light attempts in showing Rey's vulnerable side
Well, you may need everything in 30 ft high blinking neon letters shouting "VULNERABLE CHARACTER HERE ".

Some of the rest of us, we grok subtlety.
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, in contrast to the manner by which Luke's character was shaped.
What, whining and staring at suns?
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In fact, Luke remains vulnerable even in the new movies.
...and he had a whole trilogy to get there.
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Spare time? That's your idea of character development?
Well, yes. Showing what someone's life outside work/adventure is like, especially their internal life, is very much my idea of character development.

Are you saying it's not?
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No wonder you are still enchanted by this Mary Sue.
Repeating it doesn't make it true.
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As for what you see as "cheesy," I'm not surprised, especially your view that it is merely meant to show chemistry between the two.
Yes, the writing is completely fucking cheesy. But hey, go right on thinking it's "fantastic", de gustibus and all that.
  #195  
Old 09-04-2019, 05:49 AM
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Well, you may need everything in 30 ft high blinking neon letters shouting "VULNERABLE CHARACTER HERE ".

Some of the rest of us, we grok subtlety.

What, whining and staring at suns?

...and he had a whole trilogy to get there.
Well, yes. Showing what someone's life outside work/adventure is like, especially their internal life, is very much my idea of character development.

Are you saying it's not?

Repeating it doesn't make it true.

Yes, the writing is completely fucking cheesy. But hey, go right on thinking it's "fantastic", de gustibus and all that.
No, that's not needed. They have to learn to develop characters, and we're not seeing that in this Mary Sue.

What you gave isn't subtlety but over-reaching. If you want an example of a better-developed character, consider what you keep insisting is a "Marty Sue," with besides whining and staring at suns, having limbs cut off. Apparently, that's just one of many things you conveniently forgot.

Finally, it's cheesy because you keep looking for Mary Sues. Anything sentimental, vulnerable, or even banal you avoid. That includes not just a scene involving Superman and Lois that develops throughout the movie, but even the truckers of Alien.

Lots of spectacle involving Mary Sues, sprinkled with bits of the human: that's what you want. So much for your claims that you despise what's cheesy. Apparently, you feed on such.
  #196  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:24 PM
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No, that's not needed.
Apparently it is, since..
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What you gave isn't subtlety but over-reaching.
I'm not the only one seeing that characterisation, so it's exactly enough reaching, it seems.
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If you want an example of a better-developed character, consider what you keep insisting is a "Marty Sue,"
I don't think Luke is a Marty Stu. I think if you think Rey is a Mary Sue, then you have to acknowledge Luke is a Marty Stu to avoid hypocrisy.
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with besides whining and staring at suns, having limbs cut off.
...which happens right at the end of the second movie.

By which time, equivalently, Rey has also had some trauma.
Quote:
Finally, it's cheesy because you keep looking for Mary Sues.
What the everliving fuck are you on about? I haven't mentioned anything about Mary Sues in connection with Superman.

It's cheesy because the writing is cheesy. "Can you read my mind?" is just the most egregious example.
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Anything sentimental, vulnerable, or even banal you avoid.
Cloying fake sentiment, I avoid. Yes, that would be banal. Banality is always negative, IMO, so there's no shame in avoiding it. Did you perhaps mean "mundane" instead?

I've been quite explicit that her vulnerability is one of the characteristics I recognize (and appreciate) about Rey. So clearly I'm not avoiding that.
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That includes not just a scene involving Superman and Lois that develops throughout the movie
"Develops" the way a train wreck develops, because it's clearly on rails...
Quote:
, but even the truckers of Alien.
I haven't said anything negative about Alien at all. Your projection is showing. I pointed out why I consider Rey a "character" and asked if you could apply that same criterion to someone you consider a "character" (which you absolutely failed to do, I noticed) .
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Lots of spectacle involving Mary Sues
Where have I lauded spectacle in this thread, please, that you can so confidently claim it's what I want?
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, sprinkled with bits of the human: that's what you want.
I readily own to wanting my (human) characters to have human characteristics.

You don't?
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So much for your claims that you despise what's cheesy.
Humanity isn't cheesy. Stilted 70s dialogue is cheesy.
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Apparently, you feed on such.
You're a much better projectionist than you are a mind reader, is all I'll say.
  #197  
Old 09-05-2019, 06:43 AM
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Can we not bring poltics and culture wars into it? TFA and TLJ are lousy films on their own (lack of) merits, withoit bringing in nonsence about social justice warriors and PC'ness in.
  #198  
Old 09-06-2019, 07:52 AM
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Apparently it is, since..
I'm not the only one seeing that characterisation, so it's exactly enough reaching, it seems.

I don't think Luke is a Marty Stu. I think if you think Rey is a Mary Sue, then you have to acknowledge Luke is a Marty Stu to avoid hypocrisy.

...which happens right at the end of the second movie.

By which time, equivalently, Rey has also had some trauma.

What the everliving fuck are you on about? I haven't mentioned anything about Mary Sues in connection with Superman.

It's cheesy because the writing is cheesy. "Can you read my mind?" is just the most egregious example.

Cloying fake sentiment, I avoid. Yes, that would be banal. Banality is always negative, IMO, so there's no shame in avoiding it. Did you perhaps mean "mundane" instead?

I've been quite explicit that her vulnerability is one of the characteristics I recognize (and appreciate) about Rey. So clearly I'm not avoiding that.
"Develops" the way a train wreck develops, because it's clearly on rails...
I haven't said anything negative about Alien at all. Your projection is showing. I pointed out why I consider Rey a "character" and asked if you could apply that same criterion to someone you consider a "character" (which you absolutely failed to do, I noticed) .
Where have I lauded spectacle in this thread, please, that you can so confidently claim it's what I want?
I readily own to wanting my (human) characters to have human characteristics.

You don't?

Humanity isn't cheesy. Stilted 70s dialogue is cheesy.

You're a much better projectionist than you are a mind reader, is all I'll say.
Trauma. LOL.

Last edited by ralfy; 09-06-2019 at 07:53 AM.
  #199  
Old 09-06-2019, 08:17 AM
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Rey was tortured by both Ren and Snoke, IIRC. Seems like that would be traumatic to me.
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My new novel Spindown
  #200  
Old 09-06-2019, 10:45 AM
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Trauma. LOL.
What a deeply insightful and convincing response...


... you utterly failed to make, there.

And lack of response to the rest of my post duly noted.

Last edited by MrDibble; 09-06-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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