Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-21-2018, 09:50 PM
Machinaforce is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,539

The world is perfect?


Something that just bothered me is all:

Yeah, it's tough not to judge the lower stages. You really gotta grow into deep Yellow and Turquoise in order to be able to look upon Blue and the other stages without animosity. At Turquoise there is a deep realization that everything within reality is necessary and perfect. When you realize that, you see that every person is precisely where they must be. It makes no sense any longer to blame or criticize people for their ignorance because they know not what they do and they cannot help themselves.

The only way to attain peace for yourself is to totally drop all judgment of people and reality. And this can only happen by becoming conscious of the truth of nonduality. You have to realize that self/other are literally identical.

If you accomplish that, you will be left with unconditional love for all. You will see the world the way God sees it: perfect as it is.

One of the biggest obstacles to enlightenment is giving up all your judgments, demonizations, and criticisms of reality.

Imagine being unable to judge anyone or anything ever again. Such a notion scares most people. Unconditional love is very radical. The ego cannot stand it. It's too dangerous from the ego's perspective.

At the deepest levels of nonduality all action is pointless. You could just shoot yourself and it would be okay. It's all perfect. Teaching is pointless of course. But in practice you will probably just carry on with life, for shits and giggles, and probably teach.

The world cannot be improved in any way at all. It is an Absolute singularity, and everything is already contained within it for eternity. But this is not something that can be explained, and it certainly sits outside of Spiral Dynamics so I don't even talk about it. You will only discover this for yourself, at the very deepest levels of nondual consciousness. At which point, you will no longer need me or anyone else to guide you.

It's based on this: http://www.cruxcatalyst.com/wp-conte...amic-image.jpg and this is the thread: https://www.actualized.org/forum/top...video-is-good/

It just got me twisted about whether we are just kidding ourselves about making things better.
  #2  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:48 PM
Der Trihs's Avatar
Der Trihs is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: California
Posts: 38,890
The Just World Fallacy is an enormously destructive belief that causes immense suffering. The world isn't perfect, and blaming victims for what happened to them won't make it any more perfect.

And "unconditional love" is worthless and irrational. It's outright pathological. There's nothing admirable about loving someone who tortures children or beats their wife.
  #3  
Old 06-21-2018, 10:59 PM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,421
@OP: your post reads like

woo woo woo
  #4  
Old 06-21-2018, 11:07 PM
Beckdawrek's Avatar
Beckdawrek is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: So.Ark ?
Posts: 18,020
Dude, you're overthinking it.
  #5  
Old 06-21-2018, 11:08 PM
flurb is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 938
So what you're saying is that sometimes the world looks perfect, nothing to rearrange. But sometimes you just get a feeling like you need some kind of change.
  #6  
Old 06-21-2018, 11:14 PM
raventhief's Avatar
raventhief is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 5,038
What?
  #7  
Old 06-21-2018, 11:18 PM
elbows is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: London, Ontario
Posts: 14,398
Please stop using Buddhist terms you clearly do not comprehend. No, your personal interpretation doesn’t count.

When you use these terms so very wrongly you broadcast a staggering ignorance of a truly beautiful philosophy and it’s structures.

Last edited by elbows; 06-21-2018 at 11:19 PM.
  #8  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:09 AM
Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,382
That won't work.

Sadly our brains are designed to make us need the world to be something the world is not. There is a term for it, weltschmerz.

Quote:
Weltschmerz (from the German, literally world-pain, also world weariness, pronounced [ˈvɛltʃmɛɐ̯ts]) is a term coined in the 1830s by the German author Jean Paul and denotes the kind of feeling experienced by someone who believes that physical reality can never satisfy the demands of the mind.
The mind requires reality to be a safer, more fulfilling, more stable place than it really is. This causes suffering. You can 'try' to give up on the mind's demands, but you will not succeed. Just because you tell your mind to stop suffering because you have no food doesn't make the pain of hunger go away.

On the bright side, life doesn't last forever. And humans are developing new technologies to make life better all the time.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-22-2018 at 12:10 AM.
  #9  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:16 AM
Wesley Clark is offline
2018 Midterm Prediction Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 22,382
Quote:
Originally Posted by flurb View Post
So what you're saying is that sometimes the world looks perfect, nothing to rearrange. But sometimes you just get a feeling like you need some kind of change.
I wonder if the OP and the person who sold him his drugs were friends or if they were perfect strangers.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 06-22-2018 at 12:18 AM.
  #10  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:19 AM
snfaulkner's Avatar
snfaulkner is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: 123 Fake Street
Posts: 8,152
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
I wonder if the OP and the person who sold him his drugs were friends or if they were perfect strangers.
Great. Now I wanna blast some deep purple and rainbow and eat a fistful of drugs. Again.
  #11  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:42 AM
Drunky Smurf's Avatar
Drunky Smurf is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Smurf Village.
Posts: 11,193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
That won't work.

Sadly our brains are designed to make us need the world to be something the world is not. There is a term for it, weltschmerz.



The mind requires reality to be a safer, more fulfilling, more stable place than it really is. This causes suffering. You can 'try' to give up on the mind's demands, but you will not succeed. Just because you tell your mind to stop suffering because you have no food doesn't make the pain of hunger go away.

On the bright side, life doesn't last forever. And humans are developing new technologies to make life better all the time.
Holy crap.

Thank you, for giving me a name for this.

Immortality, as much as I wish it, would truly be Hell.

Last edited by Drunky Smurf; 06-22-2018 at 12:44 AM.
  #12  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:49 AM
Voyager's Avatar
Voyager is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Deep Space
Posts: 46,561
Oddly enough I just watched the ST:TOS episode "Return of the Archons." Are you of the body, OP?
  #13  
Old 06-22-2018, 06:11 AM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 11,714
Quote:
Originally Posted by flurb View Post
So what you're saying is that sometimes the world looks perfect, nothing to rearrange. But sometimes you just get a feeling like you need some kind of change.

Of course not, don't be ridiculous.
  #14  
Old 06-22-2018, 06:24 AM
Inigo Montoya's Avatar
Inigo Montoya is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the level, if inclined
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
Oddly enough I just watched the ST:TOS episode "Return of the Archons." Are you of the body, OP?
Very relevant, brother. "This is a soulless society, captain. It has no spirit, no spark. All is indeed peace and tranquility – the peace of the factory; the tranquility of the machine; all parts working in unison."

My response to the OP was sorta along those lines. Everything IS perfect and how it ought to be, but that doesn't mean you don't get to see problems and that any effort to correct them is misplaced. The individual is no more useless in such a world than a cog is in clockworks. All it means is everyone has a role in this world, and all you need to do is just play it. Someone's role is to be deprived, maybe you role is to prey on them or to help them--don't stress, just do you.
  #15  
Old 06-22-2018, 06:48 AM
BrotherCadfael is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Vermont
Posts: 10,318
Well, as this is the only possible world, it follows therefore that it must be the best of all possible worlds.
  #16  
Old 06-22-2018, 07:13 AM
Shodan is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 40,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beckdawrek View Post
Dude, you're overthinking it.
I would agree if I knew what he is overthinking. He lost me at Turquoise.

Regards,
Shodan (a delicate shade of cerise with hints of melon and saffron)
  #17  
Old 06-22-2018, 07:14 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,629
The fuck did I just read ?
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.
  #18  
Old 06-22-2018, 08:45 AM
Inigo Montoya's Avatar
Inigo Montoya is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: On the level, if inclined
Posts: 16,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherCadfael View Post
Well, as this is the only possible world, it follows therefore that it must be the best of all possible worlds.
Tao. The lighter side of nihilism.
__________________
Y'all are just too damned serious. Lighten up.
  #19  
Old 06-22-2018, 09:21 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 26,280
The OP doesn't know that Turquoise isn't the way - Indigo, here we go!

Of course the world isn't perfect. Because the World is a Vampire.
  #20  
Old 06-22-2018, 09:44 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
You will see the world the way God sees it: perfect as it is.
I suspect you are being a (something I can't accuse you of here by forum rules) but if you mean the Christian God, God never says this world in its current condition is perfect as is; on the contrary, Scripture is quick to state that the current world is full of sin and evil.
  #21  
Old 06-22-2018, 11:44 AM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 18,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
I suspect you are being a (something I can't accuse you of here by forum rules) but if you mean the Christian God, God never says this world in its current condition is perfect as is; on the contrary, Scripture is quick to state that the current world is full of sin and evil.
Christianity doesn't have a colour coded enlightenment graduation scale.
  #22  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:25 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,293
Okay, I know it's probably too much to hope for at this point, but could somebody give a concise summary of whatever the heck the OP is talking about? It doesn't have to lay out the entire cosmology of the religion, but I'd appreciate it if it defined enough terms that the OP would become vaguely comprehensible.
  #23  
Old 06-22-2018, 12:37 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 18,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Okay, I know it's probably too much to hope for at this point, but could somebody give a concise summary of whatever the heck the OP is talking about? It doesn't have to lay out the entire cosmology of the religion, but I'd appreciate it if it defined enough terms that the OP would become vaguely comprehensible.
Here's a simple graph that should answer all your questions.
  #24  
Old 06-22-2018, 01:08 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Here's a simple graph that should answer all your questions.
The turquoise described on the chart doesn't sound like the turquoise described in the op - in fact nothing in your picture suggests the world is perfect. It seems to be spiraling more towards "life sucks and everything you try will fail".
  #25  
Old 06-22-2018, 01:22 PM
asterion is offline
Just Some Guy
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Posts: 11,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
The Just World Fallacy is an enormously destructive belief that causes immense suffering. The world isn't perfect, and blaming victims for what happened to them won't make it any more perfect.
True, but Candide is still an amusing read.
  #26  
Old 06-22-2018, 02:43 PM
CarnalK's Avatar
CarnalK is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 18,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
The turquoise described on the chart doesn't sound like the turquoise described in the op - in fact nothing in your picture suggests the world is perfect. It seems to be spiraling more towards "life sucks and everything you try will fail".
Well yeah, "life sucks and everything you try will fail" but once you get to Coral you'll realize that's ok because you're good enough, smart enough and gosh darn it people like you.


But seriously, I think the OP has personally merged Spiral Dynamics with some other Eastern inspired new agey crap.

Last edited by CarnalK; 06-22-2018 at 02:47 PM.
  #27  
Old 06-22-2018, 02:49 PM
Gatopescado is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: on your last raw nerve
Posts: 22,461
Orange you glad I didn't say Banana?
  #28  
Old 06-22-2018, 03:02 PM
kenobi 65's Avatar
kenobi 65 is offline
Corellian Nerfherder
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Brookfield, IL
Posts: 15,782
Octarine and damned proud of it.
  #29  
Old 06-22-2018, 03:24 PM
begbert2 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 13,293
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
Well yeah, "life sucks and everything you try will fail" but once you get to Coral you'll realize that's ok because you're good enough, smart enough and gosh darn it people like you.
You mean that "solutions fail to meet the needs of individuals" Coral? That Coral?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
But seriously, I think the OP has personally merged Spiral Dynamics with some other Eastern inspired new agey crap.
I'd think you'd want to merge it with something, because based on that chart it's damn depressing on its own.
  #30  
Old 06-22-2018, 04:35 PM
Mangetout's Avatar
Mangetout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 57,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The only way to attain peace for yourself is to totally drop all judgment of people and reality.
So... don't. If the outcome of such a thing is the conclusion that everything is the bleak and unpalatable notion that everything is pointless, then maybe just don't choose to tread that path.

Retain a modicum of judgment, don't attain perfect peace (I mean, honestly, peace sounds fucking boring the way you describe it), and preserve the capacity to make the world better.

There. Problem solved.

Last edited by Mangetout; 06-22-2018 at 04:37 PM.
  #31  
Old 06-22-2018, 05:13 PM
Beckdawrek's Avatar
Beckdawrek is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: So.Ark ?
Posts: 18,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatopescado View Post
Orange you glad I didn't say Banana?
Now here's real color commentary.
  #32  
Old 06-22-2018, 05:14 PM
Kamino Neko's Avatar
Kamino Neko is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Alternate 230
Posts: 15,422
Quote:
Originally Posted by flurb View Post
So what you're saying is that sometimes the world looks perfect, nothing to rearrange. But sometimes you just get a feeling like you need some kind of change.
I hate you for beating me to this.

Oh, well...I'm still standing tall, on the wings of a dream.
  #33  
Old 06-22-2018, 08:53 PM
Machinaforce is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya View Post
Very relevant, brother. "This is a soulless society, captain. It has no spirit, no spark. All is indeed peace and tranquility – the peace of the factory; the tranquility of the machine; all parts working in unison."

My response to the OP was sorta along those lines. Everything IS perfect and how it ought to be, but that doesn't mean you don't get to see problems and that any effort to correct them is misplaced. The individual is no more useless in such a world than a cog is in clockworks. All it means is everyone has a role in this world, and all you need to do is just play it. Someone's role is to be deprived, maybe you role is to prey on them or to help them--don't stress, just do you.
That doesn’t really make sense. What about the part where all action is pointless?

I think he’s getting at that improvement is just in our heads because when we “improve” soemthing it’s more like a story we tell ourselves. In reality, objectively, we are just moving parts around and things happen. Improvement implies some objective scale of better or worse, which doesn’t exist.
  #34  
Old 06-22-2018, 08:57 PM
Machinaforce is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,539
Addendum: I don’t think the world is perfect. It merely is. Saying it is perfect would imply some criteria for perfection and therefor would be a value judgment. It would also imply some standard for imperfection which would violate his alleged claims of nonduality.
  #35  
Old 06-22-2018, 09:26 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
Addendum: I don’t think the world is perfect. It merely is. Saying it is perfect would imply some criteria for perfection and therefor would be a value judgment. It would also imply some standard for imperfection which would violate his alleged claims of nonduality.

Would me saying that make the world a bit less perfect?

Would me refraining from saying that make the world a bit less perfect?

Is there, in your opinion, anything I can do to make the world less or more perfect? Prepare a meal for a hungry beggar? Prepare a meal and eat it in front of that beggar? Save an innocent? Murder an innocent? Set fire to a house full of innocents? Anything?
  #36  
Old 06-23-2018, 02:44 AM
Mangetout's Avatar
Mangetout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 57,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
That doesn’t really make sense. What about the part where all action is pointless?

I think he’s getting at that improvement is just in our heads because when we “improve” soemthing it’s more like a story we tell ourselves. In reality, objectively, we are just moving parts around and things happen. Improvement implies some objective scale of better or worse, which doesn’t exist.
If this is true, it is also automatically false.

If there is no means by which you can judge anything good or bad, true or false, you also can't judge the idea "there is no means by which you can judge anything"
  #37  
Old 06-23-2018, 03:11 AM
Broomstick's Avatar
Broomstick is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NW Indiana
Posts: 29,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
The fuck did I just read ?
Wow. The last time I read something like that it was, I think, 1972 and generated by someone with too much affection for LSD and MaryJane. Wow. Pass the cheese doodles while we sit here in the "safe space". Dude is trippin'
  #38  
Old 06-23-2018, 03:32 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 15,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The only way to attain peace for yourself is to totally drop all judgment of people and reality.
So if an assailant were raping you and also planning to murder you, would you just chant/mumble "the world is perfect" over and over again during the process?
  #39  
Old 06-23-2018, 05:26 AM
Mangetout's Avatar
Mangetout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 57,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broomstick View Post
Wow. The last time I read something like that it was, I think, 1972 and generated by someone with too much affection for LSD and MaryJane. Wow. Pass the cheese doodles while we sit here in the "safe space". Dude is trippin'
The last time I read something like this was pretty much the last time the OP started a thread.
  #40  
Old 06-23-2018, 07:00 AM
Telemark's Avatar
Telemark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Just outside of Titletown
Posts: 22,996
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangetout View Post
The last time I read something like this was pretty much the last time the OP started a thread.
They're all one perfect thread. We're just moving the parts around.
  #41  
Old 06-23-2018, 07:18 AM
Mangetout's Avatar
Mangetout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 57,944
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telemark View Post
They're all one perfect thread. We're just moving the parts around.
Well, they certainly can't be made worse.
  #42  
Old 06-23-2018, 09:50 AM
Marine_One is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Barbeque City, MO
Posts: 581
"Now who can argue with that? Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed the courage little seen in this day and age."
  #43  
Old 06-23-2018, 10:06 AM
Marine_One is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Barbeque City, MO
Posts: 581
Mods, delete the above reply I created.
It isn't appropriate as a response to the thread.
  #44  
Old 06-23-2018, 12:30 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is online now
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 85,162
What about beigeish-pinkish people? Where do we stand in understanding?
  #45  
Old 06-23-2018, 04:22 PM
Mangetout's Avatar
Mangetout is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 57,944
I think you should just mauve out of the way.
  #46  
Old 06-24-2018, 06:19 PM
Machinaforce is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangetout View Post
If this is true, it is also automatically false.

If there is no means by which you can judge anything good or bad, true or false, you also can't judge the idea "there is no means by which you can judge anything"
The point being made, as in the OP, is that the only way to find peace for yourself is to drop all judgment of others and reality.
  #47  
Old 06-24-2018, 06:25 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The point being made, as in the OP, is that the only way to find peace for yourself is to drop all judgment of others and reality.

Nah, I’m good.
  #48  
Old 06-25-2018, 01:18 AM
MrDibble's Avatar
MrDibble is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa &
Posts: 26,280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
The point being made, as in the OP, is that the only way to find peace for yourself is to drop all judgment of others and reality.
Nope. We're judgement machines, designed that way by nature. Denying your own nature is to live an inauthentic life. Far better to make sure you make the best judgements you can, grounded in information and good reasoning (not bullshit colour charts) Anything else is self-deception.

Last edited by MrDibble; 06-25-2018 at 01:18 AM.
  #49  
Old 06-25-2018, 11:01 PM
Machinaforce is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 1,539
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Nah, I’m good.
Why not? WOuld not the alternative to that be choosing to live a lie, as he makes it seem and to choose suffering? TO continue with moralising?
  #50  
Old 06-26-2018, 04:03 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 16,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machinaforce View Post
Why not? WOuld not the alternative to that be choosing to live a lie, as he makes it seem and to choose suffering? TO continue with moralising?

Well, break that down for me: first off, are you, uh, “moralising” when you take that approach right there? You kicked this off by saying that one of “the biggest obstacles to enlightenment is giving up all your judgments” — promptly moving on to talk of “being unable to judge anyone or anything ever again” — and, just so I’m clear: are you, in this thread and right there in that copy-and-pasted quote, judging?

And if the world is “perfect as it is” and “cannot be improved in any way at all”, then what are you trying to accomplish by asking those questions at me? Are you trying to bring about some kind of, as it were, improvement? Or imperfection?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:56 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2019 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017