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  #51  
Old 09-10-2018, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by monstro View Post
Copy and paste the following and do a Google search on it:

"A Dallas police officer, who spoke with NBC 5 under the condition of anonymity, said Guyger was assigned to the departmentís elite Crime Response Team and had just finished a 14-hour shift serving warrants in high-crime areas. When she arrived home, she took the elevator to a floor that was not hers. She then went to what she thought was her door, put the key in and struggled with the lock. Guyger then put down several things she was holding and continued to fight with the key when the resident swung open the door and startled her. Guyger believed Jean, who was wearing only underwear, was an intruder and shot him with her service weapon. It wasnít until police and rescue units began arriving that she realized she was not at her apartment. Once realizing her deadly mistake, she became emotional and fully cooperated with officers, including offering to provide blood samples.Ē

Multiple news websites come up. But the text no longer appears on any of them. Why? Because the narrative has now mysteriously changed. Now, the door was not only unlocked, but it was ajar (which of course would creep out anyone). Now, Guyger actually went into the dimly lit apartment (which of course means she wouldn't see how different everything was). Now, Guyger shouted commands that were obviously unheeded (if only the guy had obeyed...). Now, she shot him inside the apartment (which of course she'd have every right to do, given that she thought she was in her home).

My guess? She and her lawyer have had a couple of days to figure out a less shitty story.
I did find this
Quote:
Originally Posted by NBC Chicago 5
Editor's Note: A previous version of this story included an account of events told by a Dallas police source. Due to conflicting reports of the incident from various sources, we've removed that account from the story.
I guess it is in the sense of "fairness" they no longer are publishing the original version.
  #52  
Old 09-10-2018, 09:22 PM
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How do police officers tend to be tested for drugs? That kind of confusion is what I'd expect from someone who's seriously intoxicated.
  #53  
Old 09-10-2018, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by excavating (for a mind) View Post
I did find this

I guess it is in the sense of "fairness" they no longer are publishing the original version.
I saw this language. But I would like to know where those details came from in the original version.

Are we supposed to believe that a fellow police officer concocted all those details (like that she struggled with the key for so long that she had to set some items down on the floor...presumbly right next to or on the red door mat that didn't belong to her)? Why would a fellow police officer make all of that up?

Why should the public or the jury (if it comes to that) trust this new narrative over the other one? I wish we knew when she gave her official statement. If it was right after the shooting, great. It means the anonymous police source was full of shit. But if she's had a couple of days to come up with something that conflicts with other accounts (including what she told her fellow officers on the scene) and it just happens to make her look less shady, then that just stinks to high-heaven.
  #54  
Old 09-10-2018, 09:48 PM
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I'm saddened by the man's tragic death, and hope she's punished for her alleged crime if convicted, but I'm not sure I can get too worked up about a 3-day interval before the arrest. Government is mostly slow and incompetent. This (meaning the interval until the arrest) doesn't strike me as a particularly egregious example.
It does to me. The police aren’t guessing what might have happened. She told them. She wasn’t on duty responding to a dangerous police situation. She walked into the wrong home and accidentally (her version) shot a man to death. “Oops” is not a get out of jail free card. What she did is a crime whether she meant to or not. She should have been arrested on the spot.


.

Last edited by Lucas Jackson; 09-10-2018 at 09:49 PM.
  #55  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:01 PM
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The thing that's ridiculous is that people don't seem to think about it this way: what if a cop walked into your house? What if your loved one was the one who didn't immediately comply with a stranger's orders? Would you still be acting like the cop was in the right?

A man died because a cop was too stupid/tired/drugged to realize that they were in the wrong house, and then chose to shoot someone without any signs that they were an actual threat. If she had time to issue orders, she had time to turn the lights on.

People should be not terrorized by the police, constantly worried that a cop may even just show up at their house and shoot them. I should not have to lock my door to keep the police out.

They're supposed to be our friends and helpers. This should be a much bigger deal than manslaughter.
  #56  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:09 PM
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The thing that's ridiculous is that people don't seem to think about it this way: what if a cop walked into your house? What if your loved one was the one who didn't immediately comply with a stranger's orders? Would you still be acting like the cop was in the right?
Huh? Isn't everyone thinking this way? Who has suggested in any sense that "the cop was in the right"?

I think the only think in question here is the exact details, how this could conceivably happen, whether she was drunk etc.

Last edited by Riemann; 09-10-2018 at 10:09 PM.
  #57  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I'm saddened by the man's tragic death, and hope she's punished for her alleged crime if convicted, but I'm not sure I can get too worked up about a 3-day interval before the arrest. Government is mostly slow and incompetent. This (meaning the interval until the arrest) doesn't strike me as a particularly egregious example.
Seriously? So, had it gone the other way, and it was him who had shot her, you think the police let him walk around free for 3 days and turn himself in once they'd gotten around to getting their shit together? And you're okay with that?
  #58  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:21 PM
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Huh? Isn't everyone thinking this way? Who has suggested in any sense that "the cop was in the right"?

I think the only think in question here is the exact details, how this could conceivably happen, whether she was drunk etc.
Post#48.
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka
I'm saddened by the man's tragic death, and hope she's punished for her alleged crime if convicted
  #59  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by excavating (for a mind) View Post
I did find this

I guess it is in the sense of "fairness" they no longer are publishing the original version.
I also found several sites that talked about a "suspicious" change of story by the officer. I don't think this difference is going to die away.
  #60  
Old 09-10-2018, 10:52 PM
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I also found several sites that talked about a "suspicious" change of story by the officer. I don't think this difference is going to die away.
But there must be more to this. Multiple journalists are not going to cover up a genuine prior (and more sensational) account and replace it with a modified one just because a cop says "I misremembered, here's what actually happened".
  #61  
Old 09-10-2018, 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ethilrist View Post
Post#48.
I'm certainly not on the cop's side on this one. She appears to have fucked up royally. I'm glad she's being prosecuted. I hope she's convicted and sentenced to a lengthy prison sentence. I just didn't want to jump the gun on that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing.
  #62  
Old 09-10-2018, 11:52 PM
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Seriously? So, had it gone the other way, and it was him who had shot her, you think the police let him walk around free for 3 days and turn himself in once they'd gotten around to getting their shit together? And you're okay with that?
I'm reasonably confident that they would not have hesitated to arrest him, were the roles reversed. That's unfortunate, and I dislike that I've read so many stories of police misconduct and their thin blue wall that our default assumption here is that the cop is getting special treatment, but in the grand scheme of things, 3 days doesn't appear to much matter to me. They ARE pursuing charges, which is an improvement over some "police shootings", so perhaps this isn't the one to get all outraged about police misconduct on. Just a thought.
  #63  
Old 09-11-2018, 12:32 AM
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How do police officers tend to be tested for drugs? That kind of confusion is what I'd expect from someone who's seriously intoxicated.
Extreme fatigue can mimic drunkenness quite effectively.
  #64  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:10 AM
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Texas law includes "castle doctrine" principles, with minimal duty to retreat.
Does Castle Doctrine only apply if it's really your own "castle", or also if you mistake someone else's castle for your own?

Because if the latter, that's an enormous loophole.
  #65  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:23 AM
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Does Castle Doctrine only apply if it's really your own "castle", or also if you mistake someone else's castle for your own?

Because if the latter, that's an enormous loophole.
No shit. Anyone could break into someone's home, shoot everyone in it, then claim they thought they were in their own home and were defending themselves. Granted, they'd have to have some semblance of a coherent and/or plausible reason for claiming this but still.
  #66  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:37 AM
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The affidavit says that "upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment."

She didn't know her own address?

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 09-11-2018 at 05:38 AM.
  #67  
Old 09-11-2018, 05:48 AM
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The affidavit says that "upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment."

She didn't know her own address?
How long had she been living at this apartment building? Because the only way I'd believe any answer for why she didn't know her own address other than she was higher than a kite/drunker than doorknob is if she had just recently moved in. Just having moved in might explain why, after coming off an exhaustive shift and being dead tired, she may have been disoriented as to where she was in the building and mistook the victim's place for her own. As well as not knowing her address, etc.
  #68  
Old 09-11-2018, 06:12 AM
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How long had she been living at this apartment building? Because the only way I'd believe any answer for why she didn't know her own address other than she was higher than a kite/drunker than doorknob is if she had just recently moved in. Just having moved in might explain why, after coming off an exhaustive shift and being dead tired, she may have been disoriented as to where she was in the building and mistook the victim's place for her own. As well as not knowing her address, etc.
I read only a few months. I'm not sure where I read it though.
  #69  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:10 AM
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The affidavit says that "upon being asked where she was located by emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to observe the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment."

She didn't know her own address?
I suspect when asked by the emergency dispatchers it was the first time she looked around and realized she wasn't in the right apartment. Then she walked to the front door to confirm where she actually was. It doesn't excuse any of her actions, but it could explain this narrative.
  #70  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:14 AM
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See, the way justice works is that if a victim's tragedy is attributable to your actions, whether deliberate or negligent, there are consequences.


I didn't see aceplace57 suggesting otherwise. Yes, she's got to face trial for her actions, and accept the consequences if she's found (or pleads) guilty. Jean has had his life taken from him, but that doesn't mean it's not a tragedy for the officer, too. She will live a long life with the knowledge that she stupidly killed someone. She'll never be a cop again. She'll be a felon, which will severely crimp her career options. She'll never be allowed to legally own a gun again.
  #71  
Old 09-11-2018, 07:53 AM
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You’re assuming she gets convicted.

Is it a fifteen hr shift? Or a 12hr shift with some down time after, where maybe she had some drinks? That’s a pretty easy thing for the police services to cover up I suspect. And if they’re already invested in spinning this, falsifying the drug test result would be the natural next step, dontcha think?

Maybe it’s wrong to be this suspicious. But so many recent police shootings, which saw cops walk away without conviction, AND the silence from the rest of the force, in such cases, naturally results in people always being highly suspect of police transparency.

Heroes don’t stand silently by and watch bad police skate. They don’t get it both ways. If they want to be trusted then more transparency and less spin is required. If they don’t start soon no one will EVER take the police at their word or give them the benefit of the doubt, in future?
  #72  
Old 09-11-2018, 08:50 AM
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She'd just finished a long shift. I'd be interested to know what her sleep/rest and work history were for the prior week as people who are fatigued make poor decisions. That's not to remove responsibility from her but it could point to systemic issues in the police force and the way they roster that leads to cops being less than mentally fit for work.
It's well known and acknowledged that the Dallas Police Department is understaffed and overworked- there are regular newspaper articles and TV news stories about it. There was basically a pension fund snafu a few years back brought on by the fund managers' mismanagement and a sweetheart deal for the cops, and when the city & state fixed it, a lot of older cops bailed.

Combine that with pay that's not quite up to the standard of the surrounding towns, and a tougher work environment than many of them, and it's not a surprise that DPD has trouble recruiting new cops.

Based on what I've read, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that she really did work a 15 hour shift. One article I read said that due to understaffing, there were a total of 3 officers available during the day for the entirety of central Dallas.

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/...-says-10875322

If you google "Dallas police understaffed", you'll find dozens of articles about it.

What's irking me about this are two things:

One, that the usual shit-stirrers are trying to make this into a race-related issue, when no signs point that direction. This is NOT an incident in the same vein as say... Michael Brown's shooting.

Two, this sort of pre-emptive conviction in the court of public opinion. What we should be hoping for is a fair and open trial for Guyger- she deserves that. Instead, we're getting calls for "justice" that are thinly veiled calls for a guilty verdict and implications that anything else is unjust. This bothers me- we (as the public) only know what the news has told us, and that's incomplete. And it's not our place to be deciding someone's guilt or innocence based on that. That's the job of the jurors, attorneys and judge.

And Ambivalid, have you never gone on autopilot when you're tired and done stuff you haven't really been thinking about? I mean, I've been really tired in the past and driven halfway to my previous job before I realized I was going the wrong way. And about a year ago, I stood at my previous job (of 9.5 years!) standing there shaking my keychain at the badge reader like I would have at the job before that. Hell, yesterday I got off a floor early at work because I wasn't paying attention. Autopilot. I can totally believe someone could not notice what floor they parked on, especially if there weren't reserved spots, and thus go on the wrong floor and go into the wrong apartment. I mean, how often do you check the room number or address to make sure you're in the right place at your own home?

My personal suspicion is that this was a horrendous series of unfortunate mistakes- she worked a really long and stressful shift, she got home, parked in the wrong place, and didn't notice she had the wrong floor. Jean had left his door not completely latched, so when she inserted her key, it opened. She's suspicious, goes into a dark apartment (still can't easily tell it's not hers) and sees a person in there. She yells at him, and in his bewilderment, he probably either yelled back or froze. She shoots, still not realizing she's not in the right apartment.

That's an entirely plausible sequence of events to my way of thinking. Doesn't excuse anything, but it's a lot more simple than thinking there was anything more going on.

It also doesn't meet the standard for murder; in Texas at least there are 3 levels of homicide- murder, manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide. (https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/PE.19.htm)

Murder: "intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual"
or "intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual" or "commits or attempts to commit a felony, other than manslaughter, and in the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempt, or in immediate flight from the commission or attempt, he commits or attempts to commit an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual"

Manslaughter: "recklessly causes the death of another individual,"

Criminally negligent homicide: A person commits an offense if he causes the death of an individual by criminal negligence.

Say what you will, it's likely NOT murder. Intent is probably not clear. So they're going to charge her with manslaughter, because that's the charge they can probably best prove. To put it a different way, if they were to charge her with murder, she'd probably skate because the prosecution would have a hell of a time proving intent.

Last edited by bump; 09-11-2018 at 08:50 AM.
  #73  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:06 AM
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If they want to be trusted then more transparency and less spin is required. If they donít start soon no one will EVER take the police at their word or give them the benefit of the doubt, in future?
As a spokesman for middle class White Suburbia, I would suggest significantly greater than half of us don't trust the cops already. I would assume the less privileged among us are even more wary of them. These days you only call the cops if you want to document some trouble (i.e. a burglary yesterday, or a car accident if you have time to wait around for them to get there) or if you want to start some trouble. Only a great fool calls the cops to restore order. Because as a group they practice as a gang, protecting and serving themselves first and foremost.
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  #74  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:10 AM
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Murder: "intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual"

Seems to me, firing a gun at someone, in the dark, at close range, is intentionally or knowingly killing someone.
  #75  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:12 AM
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It's well known and acknowledged that the Dallas Police Department is understaffed and overworked- there are regular newspaper articles and TV news stories about it. There was basically a pension fund snafu a few years back brought on by the fund managers' mismanagement and a sweetheart deal for the cops, and when the city & state fixed it, a lot of older cops bailed.

Combine that with pay that's not quite up to the standard of the surrounding towns, and a tougher work environment than many of them, and it's not a surprise that DPD has trouble recruiting new cops.

Based on what I've read, I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that she really did work a 15 hour shift. One article I read said that due to understaffing, there were a total of 3 officers available during the day for the entirety of central Dallas.

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/...-says-10875322

If you google "Dallas police understaffed", you'll find dozens of articles about it.

What's irking me about this are two things:

One, that the usual shit-stirrers are trying to make this into a race-related issue, when no signs point that direction. This is NOT an incident in the same vein as say... Michael Brown's shooting.

Two, this sort of pre-emptive conviction in the court of public opinion. What we should be hoping for is a fair and open trial for Guyger- she deserves that. Instead, we're getting calls for "justice" that are thinly veiled calls for a guilty verdict and implications that anything else is unjust. This bothers me- we (as the public) only know what the news has told us, and that's incomplete. And it's not our place to be deciding someone's guilt or innocence based on that. That's the job of the jurors, attorneys and judge.

And Ambivalid, have you never gone on autopilot when you're tired and done stuff you haven't really been thinking about? I mean, I've been really tired in the past and driven halfway to my previous job before I realized I was going the wrong way. And about a year ago, I stood at my previous job (of 9.5 years!) standing there shaking my keychain at the badge reader like I would have at the job before that. Hell, yesterday I got off a floor early at work because I wasn't paying attention. Autopilot. I can totally believe someone could not notice what floor they parked on, especially if there weren't reserved spots, and thus go on the wrong floor and go into the wrong apartment. I mean, how often do you check the room number or address to make sure you're in the right place at your own home?

My personal suspicion is that this was a horrendous series of unfortunate mistakes- she worked a really long and stressful shift, she got home, parked in the wrong place, and didn't notice she had the wrong floor. Jean had left his door not completely latched, so when she inserted her key, it opened. She's suspicious, goes into a dark apartment (still can't easily tell it's not hers) and sees a person in there. She yells at him, and in his bewilderment, he probably either yelled back or froze. She shoots, still not realizing she's not in the right apartment.

That's an entirely plausible sequence of events to my way of thinking. Doesn't excuse anything, but it's a lot more simple than thinking there was anything more going on.

It also doesn't meet the standard for murder; in Texas at least there are 3 levels of homicide- murder, manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide. (https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/D.../htm/PE.19.htm)

Murder: "intentionally or knowingly causes the death of an individual"
or "intends to cause serious bodily injury and commits an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual" or "commits or attempts to commit a felony, other than manslaughter, and in the course of and in furtherance of the commission or attempt, or in immediate flight from the commission or attempt, he commits or attempts to commit an act clearly dangerous to human life that causes the death of an individual"

Manslaughter: "recklessly causes the death of another individual,"

Criminally negligent homicide: A person commits an offense if he causes the death of an individual by criminal negligence.

Say what you will, it's likely NOT murder. Intent is probably not clear. So they're going to charge her with manslaughter, because that's the charge they can probably best prove. To put it a different way, if they were to charge her with murder, she'd probably skate because the prosecution would have a hell of a time proving intent.
The part you are glossing over is the part where she shoots and kills a man for not obeying her. Iím not convinced that is legal. Even if she was on her own home. As I pointed out earlier, she was not on call. What about her story, as she relates it, warrants killing someone?
  #76  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:32 AM
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That's not intent, at least not in the legal sense. She didn't go into Jean's apartment with the intent to kill him from what we know. And, from the other information we have, she tried to de-escalate with whatever verbal commands there were. That also casts doubt on her having had intent to kill him.

In other words, if you go into what you think is your own place, and find what you think is an intruder, and you try and resolve the situation through verbal commands, that is evidence that you did not intend to deliberately murder him, even if you end up shooting out of a perception of self-defense. It's that deliberate intent that matters in this case, not the innocence or guilt of the victim.


cgg419, that's just a stupid statement. By that criteria, anyone who shoots at anyone would meet the criteria for murder, even if done in self-defense. Intent means that you deliberately intended to murder that specific person.
  #77  
Old 09-11-2018, 09:50 AM
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As a spokesman for middle class White Suburbia, I would suggest significantly greater than half of us don't trust the cops already. I would assume the less privileged among us are even more wary of them. These days you only call the cops if you want to document some trouble (i.e. a burglary yesterday, or a car accident if you have time to wait around for them to get there) or if you want to start some trouble. Only a great fool calls the cops to restore order. Because as a group they practice as a gang, protecting and serving themselves first and foremost.
I subscribe to this view as well.
  #78  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:14 AM
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That's not intent, at least not in the legal sense. She didn't go into Jean's apartment with the intent to kill him from what we know. And, from the other information we have, she tried to de-escalate with whatever verbal commands there were.

And as we know, when police "de-escalate with verbal commands", civilians call it "screaming obscenities at you while pointing a gun at you." If some random stranger barges into your house in the middle of the night and screams something like (imagining here based on known videos of police confrontations) "show me my fucking hands or I'll fucking kill you", I'm sure you feel all calm and de-escalated.

Last edited by Darren Garrison; 09-11-2018 at 10:17 AM.
  #79  
Old 09-11-2018, 10:24 AM
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As a spokesman for middle class White Suburbia, I would suggest significantly greater than half of us don't trust the cops already. I would assume the less privileged among us are even more wary of them. These days you only call the cops if you want to document some trouble (i.e. a burglary yesterday, or a car accident if you have time to wait around for them to get there) or if you want to start some trouble. Only a great fool calls the cops to restore order. Because as a group they practice as a gang, protecting and serving themselves first and foremost.
Well said.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:31 AM
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And as we know, when police "de-escalate with verbal commands", civilians call it "screaming obscenities at you while pointing a gun at you." If some random stranger barges into your house in the middle of the night and screams something like (imagining here based on known videos of police confrontations) "show me my fucking hands or I'll fucking kill you", I'm sure you feel all calm and de-escalated.
WTF does that have to do with intent to murder anyone? My point was that it does show an intent to resolve the situation in a way other than shooting, which is kind of the exact opposite of intent to murder someone. Hence manslaughter instead of murder.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:31 AM
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The New York Times had this from the person living next door to the victim, "To get to Mr. Jean’s apartment, Officer Guyger would have had to walk past 15 to 20 apartments — many of which have distinct wreaths, doormats and trash cans, Ms. Kinsey [the next-door neighbor] said. Mr. Jean, for instance, had a red doormat outside his apartment."

So she didn't notice that the hall looked different? I'll be honest; I've gotten off on the wrong floor of my apartment building once or twice, but as soon as I did, I noticed that the floor, walls and so forth looked different.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:50 AM
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I'm seeing something on facebook that suggests this police officer dated Mr. Jean in the recent past. If that's true, that would be an indication of something else going on. Maybe.

I do hope the truth is told and I hope the family receives justice.
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Old 09-11-2018, 10:59 AM
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Why would you even bother with "news" via Facebook?
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:07 AM
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WTF does that have to do with intent to murder anyone? My point was that it does show an intent to resolve the situation in a way other than shooting, which is kind of the exact opposite of intent to murder someone. Hence manslaughter instead of murder.

How many seconds did she allow for the likely scared and confused person to move in a way that she felt was complying to her orders? Two seconds? Or did she give him a full five seconds before she blew him away? My point is that police "waiting for compliance before shooting" tends to be measured with the second hand of a stop watch and "not complying" tends to mean "moving in any way and also not moving at all."
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:08 AM
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Bump-sure, everybody can occasionally "check out" mentally and go on autopilot from time to time when tired and doing doing mindless routine activities. Where I take issue is her extent of mindlessness, I simply don't buy it as plausible without other as-of-yet unknown mitigating factors, such as being under the influence.
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:09 AM
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Why would you even bother with "news" via Facebook?
If it's on the internet, it has to be true. That's the law. Just like something you hear on TV has to be true.

Duh! Doesn't everybody know this by now?
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:48 AM
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I'm not sure the implication intended by the several posts of the theme 'nobody could really go into the wrong apartment and think it was theirs'. It's not plausible to me the officer deliberately went to the wrong apartment, if that's the suggestion, pending any evidence connecting her to the victim in a way that makes it plausible. She was drunk or on drugs, OK that seems possible.

On credibility, I am moderately but more 360 degree skeptical, of the police *and* the media (and/or crusading bloggers etc to the extent that's the media). And I'd want to see solid evidence that a criminal proceeding has been corrupted, when one occurs which of course it hasn't in this case.
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:50 AM
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How many seconds did she allow for the likely scared and confused person to move in a way that she felt was complying to her orders? Two seconds?
And how long does it take for her to turn on the light switch (one of the articles I read gave that as the explanation for her not knowing she was not in her apartment)?
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Old 09-11-2018, 11:54 AM
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If driving while under the influence is a serious crime you'd think carrying a gun while under the influence would be a no-no as well.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:21 PM
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Will someone explain to me how parking on the wrong level causes the numbers on the elevator buttons to misalign themselves? It doesn't matter what fucking floor she parks on-that isn't going to change what button she pushes to get to her own floor.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:36 PM
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Does Castle Doctrine only apply if it's really your own "castle", or also if you mistake someone else's castle for your own?

Because if the latter, that's an enormous loophole.
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No shit. Anyone could break into someone's home, shoot everyone in it, then claim they thought they were in their own home and were defending themselves. Granted, they'd have to have some semblance of a coherent and/or plausible reason for claiming this but still.
Again, really? Have some imagination. As I said earlier, I didn't mention the fact that Texas has castle doctrine legislation because I thought it was a valid legal defense if you are not actually inside your home. I mentioned it because it may have affected her state of mind - her inclination to shoot rather than retreat if she thought she was in her own home. Castle doctrine and stand your ground laws that reduce the obligation to retreat can have disastrous consequences.

Last edited by Riemann; 09-11-2018 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:39 PM
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WTF does that have to do with intent to murder anyone? My point was that it does show an intent to resolve the situation in a way other than shooting, which is kind of the exact opposite of intent to murder someone. Hence manslaughter instead of murder.
The death occurred during the commission of breaking and entering, therefore intent is irrelevant: felony murder.

mc
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:43 PM
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Will someone explain to me how parking on the wrong level causes the numbers on the elevator buttons to misalign themselves? It doesn't matter what fucking floor she parks on-that isn't going to change what button she pushes to get to her own floor.
There are buildings with attached parking garages where there's a door from every floor of the garage to the corresponding floor of the building itself. So you can park on your own floor and go straight to your apartment (or office), no elevator required.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:44 PM
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Will someone explain to me how parking on the wrong level causes the numbers on the elevator buttons to misalign themselves? It doesn't matter what fucking floor she parks on-that isn't going to change what button she pushes to get to her own floor.
I think this probably means she didn't get on an elevator at all. Just went right from the parking area to the hall/floor of the apartments.

It would be interesting to know if that's the set up, and that's what she usually does.
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:51 PM
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One of the news quotes in this thread says "When she arrived home, she took the elevator to a floor that was not hers"
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Old 09-11-2018, 12:51 PM
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I didn't see aceplace57 suggesting otherwise. Yes, she's got to face trial for her actions, and accept the consequences if she's found (or pleads) guilty. Jean has had his life taken from him, but that doesn't mean it's not a tragedy for the officer, too. She will live a long life with the knowledge that she stupidly killed someone. She'll never be a cop again. She'll be a felon, which will severely crimp her career options. She'll never be allowed to legally own a gun again.
I think it's pretty offensive to say "it's a terrible tragedy for the victim and the officer" as though they are equally victims here. This was caused by the officer, through appalling negligence at the very least, and possibly worse. To call any subsequent prosecution, trial & punishment a "tragedy" on a par with her victim being dead is totally inappropriate. I mean, if you really think that subsequent punishment of the officer is also a tragedy - well the justice system is under our control, so that part could be avoided by not prosecuting her, right? I don't call that part a tragedy, I call it "justice".

Last edited by Riemann; 09-11-2018 at 12:55 PM.
  #97  
Old 09-11-2018, 12:56 PM
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One of the news quotes in this thread says "When she arrived home, she took the elevator to a floor that was not hers"
That's the mystery news story that was allegedly removed from every news site it originally appeared on.
  #98  
Old 09-11-2018, 01:01 PM
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So do we have any confirmation that she walk directly from the wrong parking level to the wrong apartment floor?
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:11 PM
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Seems to me, firing a gun at someone, in the dark, at close range, is intentionally or knowingly killing someone.
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cgg419, that's just a stupid statement. By that criteria, anyone who shoots at anyone would meet the criteria for murder, even if done in self-defense. Intent means that you deliberately intended to murder that specific person.
Yes, intent does not require extensive prior planning. I don't think it requires that she must have planned to kill him before she entered the apartment, for example. But it does require some time for ideation, to consider the consequences and reject alternatives. It would be almost impossible to prove unless there's some more sinister aspect to this, that she didn't enter accidentally.
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Old 09-11-2018, 01:14 PM
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The death occurred during the commission of breaking and entering, therefore intent is irrelevant: felony murder.

mc
This is, shockingly, a completely inaccurate statement of the felony murder rule's application to this set of facts.
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