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Old 09-12-2018, 02:38 PM
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It is illustrative though for showing that, if you believe she thought she was at her apartment, Guyger lacked the mens rea necessary to commit murder. I think it's easier to show beyond a reasonable doubt that Guyger was reckless in her disregard for a bunch of objective evidence that she wasn't in her apartment, and that the guy approaching her had every right to be there and every right to ignore whatever commands she may or may not have given him.
That's exactly what I was trying to say with the manslaughter vs. murder commentary- I just used intent (which is a sort of subset of mens rea, I believe)
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Old 09-12-2018, 03:16 PM
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Not sure if this has been posted yet, either here or in the 'bad cops' Pit thread that people aren't updating as frequently, but here is the Arrest Warrant and the Affidavit for the Arrest Warrant for Amber Guyger: https://www.scribd.com/document/3882...Guyger-Warrant

Here is a Channel 11 in Dallas article quoting local criminal defense attorneys who think the above warrant is insufficiently precise to support a finding that a crime occurred. https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2018/09/11/...icer-shooting/ From the article:
Quote:
CBS 11 asked several prominent criminal defense lawyers what they thought about the warrant.

All of them said they were surprised they didn’t see words like “reckless” or “intentional” which they say would normally be found on similar documents in manslaughter and murder cases.

“It’s an interesting read,” said criminal defense attorney George Milner. “It doesn’t read anything beyond negligence of that they simply do not specify how she is reckless which is the required mental state for manslaughter. It reads much more like an accidental killing. I mean if someone were to drop a gun accidentally and it fired and it hit somebody.”

Milner and others say it doesn’t necessarily mean the DA’s office doesn’t have a good case because the investigation is still ongoing.

But he says it’s clearly a sign the Texas Rangers were careful not to implicate Officer Guyger.

“If it was a reasonable mistake of fact, that’s an affirmable defense that is going to weigh into this thing very heavily,” said Robert Hinton, another criminal defense attorney.

“In my honest opinion, I think if I represented her, she’d walk,” said Milner.
Now, this is not an indictment. It's a warrant that allows the police to go and arrest her for Manslaughter. The indictment is going to need to show that all of the elements of the crime are present, and one of those elements is the mental state of the offender when they committed the homicide. For Manslaughter, it's recklessness. For Criminally Negligent Homicide, it's negligence. And for Murder, it's knowing your conduct was going to cause the death or you were intending that your actions would cause the death.

I agree with the attorneys quoted---the warrant affidavit doesn't mention recklessness anywhere. The recitation of facts doesn't lead one to think the officer was reckless at all, merely mistaken. Hell, it almost makes her mistake sound reasonable.

I'm sure more facts will come out---for the State's sake, they'd damned well better---but right now, I'm not reading in that affidavit a mental state of the offender sufficient to show that the crime of Manslaughter occurred.
  #203  
Old 09-12-2018, 04:55 PM
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Thanks for the link to the arrest warrant. I have even more questions now:

1) Why does the warrant say "The door being opened alerted Complainant Jean to Guyger's presence"? How do they know the victim was alerted by the opening door?

2) The warrant clearly states the door was "slightly ajar" when she inserted her key. Why would she insert her key into a door even slightly ajar? The warrant states the insertion of the key card pushed the door open farther. In fact, from my experience, she would have had to hold the door to steady it in order to insert the key card if the door was even slightly ajar.

3) Assuming the hallway was lit, if the apartment was "almost completely dark," how could she see a "vague silhouette" when she entered--or much of anything at all? It takes the retinal cone cells around 10 minutes to fully adjust to the dark. It'd have to take at least a couple of minutes for her to see a vague silhouette in those conditions.

4)
Quote:
Due to the interior darkness of the apartment, Guyger turned on the lights while on the phone with 911.Upon being asked where she was by the emergency dispatchers, Guyger returned to the front door to determine the address and discovered she was at the wrong apartment.
Why would she have to return to the front door to determine the address? (I assume the warrant means the apartment number, as the address wouldn't be on the door.) With the lights on, even with the apartments having the exact same layout, it'd be almost immediately ( within seconds) obvious the furnishings were different.

5) Is it standard language to say "Guyger believed" on an arrest warrant? I would have thought it'd be phrased as "Guyger stated she believed."
  #204  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:28 PM
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Go ahead and check, sparky. You will find that I have never used that expression, other than to point out to others like you that I have never used it. Swing and a miss for you.
Save you some time putting words in my mouth, Riemann, just because I am nice. In my posting history here, I have consistently noted that I carry a gun to protect me and mine. Not you. Not society. Me. Mine.
  #205  
Old 09-12-2018, 05:51 PM
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4) Why would she have to return to the front door to determine the address? (I assume the warrant means the apartment number, as the address wouldn't be on the door.) With the lights on, even with the apartments having the exact same layout, it'd be almost immediately ( within seconds) obvious the furnishings were different.
She believed she was in her own apartment and the fact that a stranger was there and the furnishings were different confused her. So she went to check the apartment number. It seems plausible to me.
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Old 09-12-2018, 06:07 PM
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Again referring you to Sec. 9.42(2), supra, deadly force may be used to protect property when the actor has reasonable belief that such force was immediately necessary to prevent the immediate commission of, inter alia, criminal mischief at night.
ß 9.42 in full (bolding mine):

Quote:
A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41 ;  and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime;  or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;  and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means;  or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.
https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-c...sect-9-42.html

It starts off with

A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41


Would the person be justified under Section 9.41 (bolding mine)?:

Quote:
(a) A person in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to prevent or terminate the other's trespass on the land or unlawful interference with the property.

(b) A person unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property by another is justified in using force against the other when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to reenter the land or recover the property if the actor uses the force immediately or in fresh pursuit after the dispossession and:

(1) the actor reasonably believes the other had no claim of right when he dispossessed the actor;  or

(2) the other accomplished the dispossession by using force, threat, or fraud against the actor.
https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-c...sect-9-41.html


The person was neither in lawful possession of land or tangible, movable property or unlawfully dispossessed of land or tangible, movable property, so ß 9.42 appears to be moot due to (1).

Also, (2), (A) and (B) say:

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime;  or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;  and


The deadly force part must be believed to be immediately necessary, but it must be that "the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft" or "is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft" is actually taking place, not believed to be, going by a strict reading. I wouldn't be surprised if case law has shown reasonable belief to be enough, but first we have to get past he justification in using force against the other under Section 9.41.
  #207  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:10 PM
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Of course it may be that another statute makes it so her actions are defensible. My post above is just in response to Bricker's claim regarding Sec. 9.42(2).
  #208  
Old 09-12-2018, 06:17 PM
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This is not that complicated, people. As I mentioned in my first post on this thread, either the door was locked (as initially reported) or it wasn't (as reported later) - there is no way the door was "almost" locked. In either case, this was murder.

That all being said, I can easily see how an expensive defense lawyer would be able to get this woman off - unfortunately.

That also being said, I don't see that this woman will work in LE again - but, I could be wrong about that....stranger things have happened.
  #209  
Old 09-12-2018, 07:02 PM
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In either case, this was murder.
I strongly believe this was a crime, but there's little to support that it's murder.
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Old 09-12-2018, 07:06 PM
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I may have to take back what I said in an earlier post about there being no dispute between these two. In a Yahoo article I just read, there is an indication that the woman may have made a noise complaint against the victim, and that it wasn't the first complaint that was made. I do believe she did live directly below him; I've lived in apartments, and if someone above you is noisy you can really hear this if you're directly below them. If this news about the noise complaint is true, I wonder if this had anything to do with what happened?!

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/ever...144500273.html

This being said, there is a lot of info. coming out about this case & who knows what is true. If there were 1 or more noise complaints made, I'd like to see proof of these - if there is any, of course.

Last edited by Roy Batty; 09-12-2018 at 07:08 PM.
  #211  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:02 PM
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Excellent analysis of the legal issues in this case.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/cour...ng-botham-jean

Interesting that defense lawyers feel this isn't a manslaughter case. Murder more closely fits the circumstances.

The article goes on to explain reckless applies to shooting. It doesn't apply to entering the wrong apartment. The explanation is further down after this quote.
Quote:
Longtime defense attorney Brook Busbee said the manslaughter charge doesn't fit what law enforcement said happened in Guyger's arrest warrant affidavit.

"We don't know all the facts, but the facts in the affidavit don't appear to match the manslaughter charge, because the act of shooting him wasn't reckless," Busbee said. "According to the affidavit, in her mind, it was intentional."

Defense attorney John Creuzot, a former judge and prosecutor running against Johnson for district attorney, said in similar cases, suspects are charged with murder. The Guyger case is a "deviation from the norm," he said.

"I am not aware of a case in which a person shoots another person in the torso, with death as the result, and is charged with manslaughter," Creuzot said. "In Dallas County, the longstanding practice of our law enforcement agencies, in similar cases, has been to charge suspects with murder." 

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-12-2018 at 09:05 PM.
  #212  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:10 PM
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Exactly - this was murder, pure and simple. She killed this innocent victim in cold blood.

I'm fucking sick & tired of people in authority getting away with preferential treatment when it comes to cases like this. In fact, the opposite should be true - people in LE, the medical community, lawyers, etc. should actually be held to a higher standard of behavior that others.
  #213  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:12 PM
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Officer Guyger Jean hasn't been fired yet? I haven't seen any confirmation reported.

I wonder if that won't happen until a grand jury indictment?

Anyone know what's typically done?

Last edited by aceplace57; 09-12-2018 at 09:13 PM.
  #214  
Old 09-12-2018, 09:20 PM
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^ It's Amber Guyger. She shot Botham Jean.

Quote:
She was placed on administrative leave immediately, but she remains an employee of the Police Department nearly a week after she killed 26-year-old Botham Jean in his Cedars apartment.

And though the 30-year-old officer turned herself in Sunday on a manslaughter charge, decisions about her employment as a Dallas police officer will be on hold until a criminal investigation is complete, police Chief of Staff Thomas Taylor said Wednesday.

A warrant was issued for Amber Guyger, 30, and she was arrested Sunday and booked into the Kaufman County jail on a manslaughter charge, the Texas Department of Public Safety said. (Kaufman County jail)
It's typical for the Dallas department to wait for a criminal investigation to conclude before undertaking an internal investigation. And in this case, the Texas Rangers asked the police to wait to start the internal investigation, Taylor said.
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/dall...ision-hold-now
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Old 09-12-2018, 09:25 PM
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My mistake for the edit typo. I was searching on Guyger Jean and forgot to edit out the other name after pasting.

Officer Guyger Jean hasn't been fired yet?

Should have said...
Officer Guyger hasn't been fired yet?
  #216  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:29 PM
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Officer Guyger hasn't been fired yet?
She's on administrative leave while the shooting is investigated--standard procedure.
  #217  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:31 PM
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She believed she was in her own apartment and the fact that a stranger was there and the furnishings were different confused her. So she went to check the apartment number. It seems plausible to me.
According to her statement, which is contradicted by two witnesses, who said they heard her knocking on the door and demanded to be let in, as well as the claim that the victim had a red doormat.
  #218  
Old 09-12-2018, 10:58 PM
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Yes. I think her story is bullshit. What it looks like actually happened was that she was knocking at the LOCKED door trying to get in & yelling - then the victim opened the door - and she killed him:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/botham-je...171312877.html

The more I think about the details here, the more I think that this story is a lot more sinister & complex than someone going to a wrong apartment thinking it was her own. I.e., if she did genuinely believe that she was @ her own apartment, why the hell was she knocking & yelling at her own door when she couldn't get in?! I believe she lived alone. So, there doesn't seem to be any reason why she was yelling at someone in the apt. to open the door - unless she really thought someone was in the apartment - i.e., did she intend to kill the victim & then just put together this fabricated story about believing there was a burglar?! Again, since it sounds like she tried her key in the door and it didn't work, shouldn't her first thought have been to check to see if she had the right apartment/floor?! That's what anyone else would have done in that situation.

Another possibility is that - yes - she may have been impaired (due to alcohol/drugs) & not been acting logically as a result. And/or she was just suffering from extreme fatigue. But, that definitely isn't an excuse to kill someone for no reason other than being in their own apartment.

Last edited by Roy Batty; 09-12-2018 at 11:02 PM.
  #219  
Old 09-12-2018, 11:47 PM
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Not saying it happened this way, just imagining different scenarios, I wonder if there is any video footage available in the hallways or the parking garage. I wonder if she really had lodged noise complaints against the victim. I could almost imagine a scenario that she arrived at her apartment after this 12-15 hour shift, got angry over noise coming from his apartment, and went up there to confront him and then something went awry. Its hard to imagine someone driven to kill over noise, but this is America and stranger things have happened.

Not sure what the appropriate legal charge should be in this case, but I imagine if it was not a police officer that they would be charged with murder, its pretty hard to defend the killing even if there was some perfect storm of events that made her accidentally enter the wrong apartment. Either way someone that makes a mistake like that definitely shouldn't keep her job, too much responsibility and power in the hands of someone that would make such an egregious error.
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Last edited by pool; 09-12-2018 at 11:48 PM.
  #220  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:20 AM
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I could almost imagine a scenario that she arrived at her apartment after this 12-15 hour shift, got angry over noise coming from his apartment, and went up there to confront him and then something went awry.
Iíve been hesitant to speculate it, but thatís one of the first things that went through my mind. Having lived in a downstairs apt Iím all to familiar with noisy upstairs neighbors. I can imagine her knocking on the door, him not responding, her yelling (verbal commands) to open the door and with her anger at a peak shooting when he finally did.

Iím not saying I believe that this is what happened, but it did cross my mind. And given the ďfactsĒ that have been released it fits better that the official version.
  #221  
Old 09-13-2018, 03:46 AM
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Has any local media outlet verified whether the doors in this building close automatically? I've seen that claimed in various places. If that's true, it would be unlikely that the door was "ajar."

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 09-13-2018 at 03:47 AM.
  #222  
Old 09-13-2018, 05:44 AM
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Anyway, Bricker's hypo, I'd like to stress, is not what happened here.
Did I misunderstand? I thought the whole point was that Officer Guy-gurr thought it was her apartment and therefore thought she was in danger. If LEO fears had to be founded in reality, there are dozens of killings I've seen on YouTube that would be criminal.
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  #223  
Old 09-13-2018, 07:00 AM
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Let's keep in mind:

1. Police Officer.
2. White.
3. Female.

It will be a mediocre prosecution. She will be acquitted and immediately promoted to Detective.

Welcome to Texas.
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  #224  
Old 09-13-2018, 07:49 AM
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I could almost imagine a scenario that she arrived at her apartment after this 12-15 hour shift, got angry over noise coming from his apartment, and went up there to confront him and then something went awry. Its hard to imagine someone driven to kill over noise, but this is America and stranger things have happened.
That would explain why she was pounding on the door and yelling "Let me in!"

Does anyone know if the type of key-fob locks at that apartment have a log of when they were used? Is there a central computer controlling the locks? If so, it might show where she used her fob that night.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:02 AM
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The ambulance Corps where I was a member used to use these.

Yes the information can be recorded at an off-site station. There was a record of the exactly what time each person came into the building using their fob. Same-looking item.
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  #226  
Old 09-13-2018, 08:22 AM
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Has any local media outlet verified whether the doors in this building close automatically? I've seen that claimed in various places. If that's true, it would be unlikely that the door was "ajar."
One of his neighbors has posted a short video of them using the fob and showing the door in what appeared to be a self-closing mode. Sorry Iím not where I can search for it right now.
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:29 AM
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That would explain why she was pounding on the door and yelling "Let me in!"

Does anyone know if the type of key-fob locks at that apartment have a log of when they were used? Is there a central computer controlling the locks? If so, it might show where she used her fob that night.
This is the type of thing that has me wondering.

If this was a civilian shooting, the cops would be reviewing any and all surveillance video and computer logs, if for no other reason than practice in investigative procedures. They would definitely be looking for inconsistencies in her story.

In this case, however, it appears the attitude is "There is no reason to do any of that, we already know who did the shooting."
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Old 09-13-2018, 08:35 AM
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That would explain why she was pounding on the door and yelling "Let me in!"

Does anyone know if the type of key-fob locks at that apartment have a log of when they were used? Is there a central computer controlling the locks? If so, it might show where she used her fob that night.
We have that sort of electronic locks where I work. The centralized kind that can be reprogrammed remotely is a lot more expensive than the ones that you need to actually be at to reprogram. In a hotel, I can see needing the remote programmability but in an apartment building you wouldn't, so it's possible that there is no log of when and where the keycards are used.
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Old 09-13-2018, 09:03 AM
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I don't think gun control or repeal of castle laws would matter here, but don't let that stop you from trying to make political hay. Since she's a cop, she'd have had a gun no matter what. We don't do the unarmed police thing here, if you hadn't noticed. Castle law doesn't matter, either. She's a cop and they get to play by different rules from the rest of us.
You also don't do the "not on duty" either. Many countries have armed policemen who wouldn't even think of carrying their regulation weapon when not on the clock. I don't know if there are any other countries where it is acceptable for a police officer to wear their uniform while being paid by a private company to act as a security guard, or where actions done while not on duty would be treated as being done by a LEO and not a private citizen (whose job happens to be as a LEO).
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  #230  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:11 AM
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Weird angle to the story


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.the...1829015278/amp

I have no reason to think this was race related. But I am curious as to what her BILs Hand sign really mean, anyone know?
  #231  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:15 AM
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According to your own link, 69. The birthday they were celebrating.

Last edited by Nava; 09-13-2018 at 09:15 AM.
  #232  
Old 09-13-2018, 09:36 AM
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I’ve been hesitant to speculate it, but that’s one of the first things that went through my mind. Having lived in a downstairs apt I’m all to familiar with noisy upstairs neighbors. I can imagine her knocking on the door, him not responding, her yelling (verbal commands) to open the door and with her anger at a peak shooting when he finally did.

I’m not saying I believe that this is what happened, but it did cross my mind. And given the “facts” that have been released it fits better that the official version.
Makes sense. This would definitely explain the yelling the neighbors heard saying "Let me in". Again, if she legitimately thought she was at her apartment - and it's established that she lived alone - why would she think there was anyone in the apt. & be knocking on the door asking to be let in?! If she thought there was a burglar in the apartment that would be an incredibly stupid thing to do -i.e., for one thing it would alert the burglar to her presence; and, a potential burglar could easily shoot through the door - or be prepared for her (with a weapon) as he/she opened the door.

Also, as has been mentioned - this can't be emphasized enough: Not only did the victim have a red door mat (that she didn't have), but apparently she had to pass by numerous other doors to get to the victim's door. So, even if you give her the benefit of the doubt & believe she thought she was going to her actual apartment, how could she NOT notice the different doors she had to pass & also not notice the red door mat?!

It would be great if there were some kind of video camera outside the apartments (in the hall) w/decent sound & picture quality - this would eliminate the guesswork. However, if something like this were available I think we would already have been told about this - unless there's a cover-up going on here.

Last edited by Roy Batty; 09-13-2018 at 09:40 AM.
  #233  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:23 AM
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According to your own link, 69. The birthday they were celebrating.
Oh, I saw it. Iím just not buying it. Given the manner of dress and tats gang sign makes way more sense. If you are at your nieces third birthday ok maybe you hold up 3 fingers... but at grandads? Thatís silly.
  #234  
Old 09-13-2018, 10:37 AM
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You also don't do the "not on duty" either. Many countries have armed policemen who wouldn't even think of carrying their regulation weapon when not on the clock. I don't know if there are any other countries where it is acceptable for a police officer to wear their uniform while being paid by a private company to act as a security guard, or where actions done while not on duty would be treated as being done by a LEO and not a private citizen (whose job happens to be as a LEO).
That's correct. I've never thought that uniformed, sworn police acting as private security had any place in society. In not a few departments, off duty officers are actually required to carry a weapon. The thinking is that, whether on duty or not, they are sworn officers with full powers of arrest and should be equipped to act. It is also common for officers to carry off duty even when not required to do so. Sometimes it is the reasoning just listed, sometimes it is because they believe they may be subject to retaliation attacks.
In any case, this particular incident isn't one of our typical endless gun control/castle doctrine/mental health system arguments. By the nature of her job and because of the very valid reasons why police are widely mistrusted and feared in this country, it is about her and about a system that may be covering for her.

Last edited by Scumpup; 09-13-2018 at 10:37 AM.
  #235  
Old 09-13-2018, 11:07 AM
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Oh, I saw it. Iím just not buying it. Given the manner of dress and tats gang sign makes way more sense. If you are at your nieces third birthday ok maybe you hold up 3 fingers... but at grandads? Thatís silly.
Thing is, the alternate explanation, that he's throwing gang signs at father-in-law's birthday family photo is equally, and I would say even more, silly.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:23 AM
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Also, as has been mentioned - this can't be emphasized enough: Not only did the victim have a red door mat (that she didn't have), but apparently she had to pass by numerous other doors to get to the victim's door.
Actually this has been mentioned over and over again here, despite the fact that there's actually no evidence that her floor's hallway looked any different than the victim's hallway, and she could easily have been checking messages on her phone while she was walking to the door. You don't even know what her doormat looked like either.

There's also tons of evidence that people usually don't notice changes in their immediate visual environment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO8wpm9HSB0

If you don't think she walked into someone else's apartment by mistake, what do you think actually DID happen? A planned assassination of the man who just happened to be living directly above her apartment?
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:38 AM
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Actually this has been mentioned over and over again here, despite the fact that there's actually no evidence that her floor's hallway looked any different than the victim's hallway, and she could easily have been checking messages on her phone while she was walking to the door. You don't even know what her doormat looked like either.

There's also tons of evidence that people usually don't notice changes in their immediate visual environment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO8wpm9HSB0

If you don't think she walked into someone else's apartment by mistake, what do you think actually DID happen? A planned assassination of the man who just happened to be living directly above her apartment?
Iím just having trouble with the door being ajar. As I noted above, a neighbor posted a video of not only opening the door with the fob but allowing it close on its own. From my view they seemed to operate in a similar fashion to hotel doors. Being ajar doesnít make sense. It also doesnít fit with witness statements that she banged on the door demanding it to be opened.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:49 AM
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...she could easily have been checking messages on her phone while she was walking to the door...

There's also tons of evidence that people usually don't notice changes in their immediate visual environment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO8wpm9HSB0
IF it's true that he had a distinctive red doormat, it's quite implausible that she didn't notice it if she was sober. Your video shows changes to an unfamiliar environment; we are much more sensitive to changes in a familiar environment. You aren't checking messages when you get your key out to put it in a lock, at which point the doormat is prominent in your peripheral vision.
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Old 09-13-2018, 11:51 AM
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From the pictures of the lock on Jean's door, it appears it may be the Saflok Insync RD. In the specs it says it offers an audit trail, so it may be possible to see if Guyger went to her apartment first or if she tried to use her fob on his door.
  #240  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:04 PM
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Thing is, the alternate explanation, that he's throwing gang signs at father-in-law's birthday family photo is equally, and I would say even more, silly.
Let's agree to disagree on that.
BTW, killer's sister proudly has her picture taken with a shirt that reads, in huge lettering, ALL LIVES MATTER. Would I guess right that you disagree that's a racist slogan? (What do I win?)
  #241  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:26 PM
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Let's agree to disagree on that.
BTW, killer's sister proudly has her picture taken with a shirt that reads, in huge lettering, ALL LIVES MATTER. Would I guess right that you disagree that's a racist slogan? (What do I win?)
No, in fact you would have guessed wrong.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:26 PM
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IF it's true that he had a distinctive red doormat, it's quite implausible that she didn't notice it if she was sober. Your video shows changes to an unfamiliar environment; we are much more sensitive to changes in a familiar environment. You aren't checking messages when you get your key out to put it in a lock, at which point the doormat is prominent in your peripheral vision.
Agreed. If the doormat were brown/tan or of a color that was equally bland/mainstream, I could see her not noticing this - if her doormat were similar (unless she didn't have a doormat). But, to ignore a RED doormat?! Hell, I don't think I've ever even been to a house with a red doormat, so this type of thing should immediately stand out to anyone....unless she also had a red doormat - and there's no indication that she did (I think that would have been mentioned by now).
  #243  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:36 PM
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Let's agree to disagree on that.
BTW, killer's sister proudly has her picture taken with a shirt that reads, in huge lettering, ALL LIVES MATTER. Would I guess right that you disagree that's a racist slogan? (What do I win?)
The other thing, is that it would also be an amazing coincidence. The photo was taken in 2016 at Joe's Crab Shack. I don't know her dad's name, but I found a William Guyger in Dallas who is 71, and for whom Amber Guyger is listed as a relative. That would line up with him being 69 (if that is her dad) at the time the photo was taken. What makes more sense here? That he's flashing white supremacist signs that happen to look like a 69 (from the brother-in-law's perspective) at a 69th birthday party family photo, or that he is, simply, flashing the age of the father? It would also be dead simple for the media to look up the age of the dad and contradict the story if the age doesn't line up with his explanation for the 2016 photo.

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  #244  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:42 PM
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If you don't think she walked into someone else's apartment by mistake, what do you think actually DID happen? A planned assassination of the man who just happened to be living directly above her apartment?
Both of the above scenarios seem like a stretch. More likely to me, is that she went to his apartment with a beef and it escalated. She's a cop, so she had a gun on her.

From the Yahoo! article Roy linked to earlier:

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And Merritt himself has disputed a number of Guygerís claims in the police affidavit. In an interview on CNN, Merritt argued that Jeanís door could not have been ajar, as doors in the apartment complex building close automatically. Though he declined to offer a theory about what actually took place, Merritt did reveal that the same day as the shooting, someone in the apartment immediately below Jeanís ó which happens to be Guygerís place of residence ó made a noise complaint about Jeanís apartment; furthermore, he said, it was not the first noise complaint.
So the same day that a noise complaint was filed against an apartment, someone living in the apartment the noise complaint was made from accidentally enters the apartment the complaint was made against...and shoots someone living there? A little hard to buy. Consider that with reports that witnesses heard a woman in the hallway shouting "Let me in, let me in" seconds before the gunshot.
  #245  
Old 09-13-2018, 12:44 PM
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Both of the above scenarios seem like a stretch. More likely to me, is that she went to his apartment with a beef and it escalated. She's a cop, so she had a gun on her.
Yeah, this is what it smells like to me right now, and what seems to make the most sense, given what bits and pieces we know.
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Old 09-13-2018, 12:49 PM
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So are they ever gonna release the lab results to see if she was drunk or not?
  #247  
Old 09-13-2018, 01:06 PM
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Both of the above scenarios seem like a stretch. More likely to me, is that she went to his apartment with a beef and it escalated. She's a cop, so she had a gun on her.

From the Yahoo! article Roy linked to earlier:

So the same day that a noise complaint was filed against an apartment, someone living in the apartment the noise complaint was made from accidentally enters the apartment the complaint was made against...and shoots someone living there? A little hard to buy. Consider that with reports that witnesses heard a woman in the hallway shouting "Let me in, let me in" seconds before the gunshot.
Yup, this is a plausible theory. There has been a beef about noise. She comes back tired from a long shift at work, contemplates coming back to noise again, decides that going to see him in uniform might intimidate him into taking her noise complaint seriously. She deliberately parks on his level and goes to his apartment.

If there's evidence that she made such a noise complaint, especially if it's the same day, I would think that's enough for a jury to dismiss her story that she thought she was in her own apartment as bogus. And it makes her look very bad, because she could have come clean about going to confront him about the noise beef if the shooting was remotely justifiable in a context other than defense against an intruder into your own apartment.

Last edited by Riemann; 09-13-2018 at 01:08 PM.
  #248  
Old 09-13-2018, 01:07 PM
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Did I misunderstand? I thought the whole point was that Officer Guy-gurr thought it was her apartment and therefore thought she was in danger. If LEO fears had to be founded in reality, there are dozens of killings I've seen on YouTube that would be criminal.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding. I thought that in Bricker's hypo, it actually was her apartment, not that she only thought it was. If it's her actual apartment, and Mr. Jean is wandering around it in his undies at 10 PM with all the lights out, then her killing him when he won't show his hands (or whatever else he did that'd give a reasonable person in her situation the reasonable apprehension of immediate serious bodily harm---a home intruder who won't show his hands, and is much bigger than you to boot, counts) is justifiable in Texas.

Instead, he's in his own apartment, and she is making a Mistake of Fact about which apartment she's sitting in front of. Mistake of Fact is a term in the Texas Penal Code, and its effects as a defense to criminal prosecution may be found at ß 8.02. https://codes.findlaw.com/tx/penal-c...sect-8-02.html Which reads:
Quote:
(a) It is a defense to prosecution that the actor through mistake formed a reasonable belief about a matter of fact if his mistaken belief negated the kind of culpability required for commission of the offense.

(b) Although an actor's mistake of fact may constitute a defense to the offense charged, he may nevertheless be convicted of any lesser included offense of which he would be guilty if the fact were as he believed.
So, for this to help Guyger avoid responsibility for Murder, which is the appropriate charge when you knowingly or intentionally unlawfully kill someone, the mistake must "form a reasonable belief about a matter of fact," and that the mistake must "negate the culpability required" for the offense. In short, she's not setting out to go confront Jean, like she would be if the theory holds water that she was going to his apartment to yell at him about his music volume, and then in that encounter got so pissed off at him that she blasted him. That would be Murder.

Instead, if her story in the affidavit is true, she's trying to defend herself from an intruder in her place. Which is a mistake. Rather than remove all criminal responsibility from her, I'd argue that her mistake that she was at her own apartment is the result of her negligence, and that this negligence is so overwhelming that it constituted a reckless disregard for the facts. Therefore her killing of Jean was the result of reckless conduct, despite shooting him being a intentional volitional act, and Manslaughter would be the appropriate charge. If you instead think that her negligence was only ordinary, not reckless, then Criminally Negligent Homicide would be the appropriate charge.

I don't think she should avoid criminal liability for what she's done, given the evidence we have so far. I just think that she lacks the mens rea for murder, and that Bricker's hypo was helpful to establish why.

Also, nothing says that you have to believe her story that she made a mistake in thinking it was her apartment. If you disbelieve her story, such that there's no reasonable doubt in your mind that she could think she was in her own place, because it just doesn't make sense to you, then there's no mistake of fact. If there's no mistake of fact, then what we have is a voluntary act in shooting Jean, where you know there's a very high probability that he'll die as a result. Which means she knowingly unlawfully caused his death, which means Murder.
  #249  
Old 09-13-2018, 01:54 PM
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If you don't think she walked into someone else's apartment by mistake, what do you think actually DID happen? A planned assassination of the man who just happened to be living directly above her apartment?
Nope, i don't think that's what happened. However, what may have happened was this:

She got home after a difficult, long, stressful shift & the guy directly upstairs happened to be making a lot of noise (so she couldn't sleep/rest). So, she went upstairs, yelled to him to open the door, and then things immediately escalated to the point that she shot him. Completely plausible. Then, she turned around and made up the "wrong apartment" story to explain the shooting.

Obviously I have no way of knowing whether this is what happened.....but, given the initial story & the neighbors' testimony - it makes sense.

Last edited by Roy Batty; 09-13-2018 at 01:57 PM.
  #250  
Old 09-13-2018, 02:04 PM
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Actually this has been mentioned over and over again here, despite the fact that there's actually no evidence that her floor's hallway looked any different than the victim's hallway, and she could easily have been checking messages on her phone while she was walking to the door. You don't even know what her doormat looked like either.

There's also tons of evidence that people usually don't notice changes in their immediate visual environment:
While people can certainly be amazingly oblivious, the problem with this theory is her banging on the door demanding to be let in. That simply makes no sense if she thought it was her apartment, where she lived alone.

Her story simply isn't logical, and I absolutely disbelieve her. It is obvious she knew it was Jean's apartment.
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