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Old 05-31-2019, 04:41 PM
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What Do Sovereign Citizens Get Out of All Their Nonsense?


I understand hating the government, and not liking to pay taxes. But what the hell?

I've seen a few of these Sovereign Citizen videos on YouTube, and I can't make head or tail out of why anyone would want to make their own life a living hell by refusing to put a license plate on a car, or renouncing your social security number. The videos show a lot of loud ridiculous incoherent arguing with police and judges, for which car windows are smashed, and contempt of court sentences are handed out.

I should talk. As a Jehovah's Witness when I was younger, I would've refused a blood transfusion if I had needed one. Lots of people think that's stupid, and it is. But Bethel says God said don't have blood transfusions even if you die because you didn't have one. And to one of the faithful, what God says goes, regardless of human laws, or common sense come to that.

As far as I can tell, the Sovereign Citizen motivation is all political and tightwaddery. They never mention God in their ranting. Why would anyone follow this nonsense? All those fake driver's licenses written on cardboard, and being shot by police over not buying a $26.00 fishing permit, and then, fishing in the municipal fish stocking pond. (That was something I heard from the videos, I don't know which one.)

It all seems like your life would steadily get worse and worse doing this stuff, and for what? So you can say, "I know the Constitution better that you ever will."? Who cares, you're not going to win. They must know that.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:43 PM
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I was under the distinct impression that the Sovereign Citizen gameplan is to be able to get all the benefits they want from society and then declare the government has no authority over them to make them do things like pay taxes and obey laws and annoying things like that. It's dumb as shit, but you can't deny that if they actually managed to pull it off and make the government back down they would come off better for it.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:49 PM
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My favorite part is the soopersekrit bank accounts that have millyuns of bucks in them that are there for the asking if you just say the magic words.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:56 PM
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Bottom line, they're morons with a deep, fundamental, and complete misunderstanding of exactly what the government is and how it functions. They erroneously believe they can exist outside of the government's authority, yet at the same time benefit from it. They are completely ignorant of the law and yet believe they can manipulate it to their advantage with "magic words" and trivial technicalities like capitalizing certain words in documents. They are near perfect examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
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Old 05-31-2019, 04:59 PM
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The most annoying sovereign citizen on the planet.

Last edited by running coach; 05-31-2019 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:30 PM
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The most annoying sovereign citizen on the planet.
“You’re raping me. This is rape. This is rape! This is rape!”
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:58 PM
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I think they get the same benefits that every other conspiracy theorist gets.

The ability to feel that they are better than everyone because they know THE TRUTH.
That they are heroes fighting against evil shadow powers and so their life has meaning.
The camaraderie from talking with those who believe the same things they do.
etc. etc.
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Old 05-31-2019, 05:58 PM
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What SCs get out of it is a sense of power over their own lives. It's actually kind of like the crazies who believe in QAnon. Both conspiracy theories allow a person to pretend, or maybe quite believe, that they understand things that are actually way too hard to understand; that the government, impersonal and complex and powerful, can be reduced to a very simple set of good buys, bad guys, and simple rules, like it is in the movies.

I believe you will find that sovereign citizen types are very disproportionately likely to be people who have recurring problems with the law in a sort of minor civil / misdeameanor way - tax problems, failure to pay child support, can't get a disability benefit, traffic tickets, recurring income/property tax crap, stuff like that, things that tend to most affect people who just cannot quite get all their shit together. Dealing with this is frustrating, and if a person feels THE SYSTEM cannot be beaten or even reasoned with, the idea that the system can be defeated though some back channel/magic word type thing - again, like you might see in a movie - can be really, really appealing. People will hold on to those sorts of beliefs with a fervor that defies all logic, because the alternative - to truly admit their own problems and the hard work it takes to fix them - is so much more difficult.
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:01 PM
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By all indications, they exist for the purpose of taser-testing. I expect the mentality, though, is comparable to any conspiracy-theorist in that they feel special because they know The Truth, putting them above all of society's sheeple.

And as others have stated, they want the privileges of living in a free society without any of the responsibilities.
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:31 PM
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Bottom line, they're morons with a deep, fundamental, and complete misunderstanding of exactly what the government is and how it functions.
I think that's really all it is. They're taking the constitution and applying it incorrectly. Fueled by keyboard commandos, they end up taking way too far.
The best example is the 'right to travel'. Sure, you have the right to travel. No one is arguing that point. In fact, I couldn't tell you if 'right to travel' is an actual right, but again, no one has an issue with that. The problem is when you're traveling, by motor vehicle, for which you expressly don't have a right to do (it's a privilege) and you're doing it as illegally as possible (ie no plates, no DL, ignoring officer's directions etc).
I do like it when the cops say that they really don't care about SCs. If they want to meet in chat rooms and message boards and talk about how much they hate the government, so be it. But when they decide to run down a cop because they don't want to get pulled over, that's a problem.

It seems to come down to them deciding that they don't want to play our game, but than being angry when the police won't play their game.

A lot of it can be solved by the officer saying (and I've seen them do this), 'show me where it says that in the constitution and then we'll talk about it'. Too many of these people are parroting what they read online without going through the simple task of fact checking to make sure it's true. The constitution is pretty easy to find on the internet. If you're going to (possibly, literally) die on that hill, you should have good grasp of what's contained in it.
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Old 05-31-2019, 06:40 PM
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Bottom line, they're morons...
This.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:20 PM
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Conspiracy theorists need a combination of two traits. They must possess negative ignorance, e.g. not knowing how the government works. And they must possess positive ignorance, e.g., believing they have knowledge about a system that is wholly imaginary nonsense, in this case that capital letters have meaning in defining a person's name or that fringe on flags determines the legitimacy of a court.

Everybody has negative ignorance about many things. Spouting off on a topic without knowing much about it is the bane of our society. But that's just random and uncoordinated dumbness, which is manageable.

What CTs buy into is a system of positive ignorance. Sovereign citizens share an entire mythology of looniness that is identical to a religion, with common beliefs, benefits of having those beliefs, people to accuse of persecution if they counter the beliefs, and superiority to those who do not believe. The power of a religion is that it can't be refuted from the outside. People have to voluntarily and internally give up the belief. That's extremely hard for most people. Evidence shows that the majority of believers would rather die than give up their beliefs. (Figuratively, today, except in some parts of the world.)

The best aspect of sovereign citizens is that they're lousy proselytizers. But that just means that a new belief system will replace them, and it will be just as loony and as mysterious to outsiders.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:22 PM
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Magical incantations to impose their sense of order on the world.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:28 PM
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As far as I can tell, the Sovereign Citizen motivation is all political and tightwaddery. They never mention God in their ranting. Why would anyone follow this nonsense?
There was a thread a while back talking about the nature vs nurture debate. The science generally shows big chunks of our personality are a mix of both typically falling in the 40-60% explained by genetics in twin studies. Authoritarianism seems to be about 48% heritable rather than environmental or learned. Out at the other end of the distribution we'd expect to find people most predisposed towards a strongly anti-authoritarian (or libertarian) approach to society. Mix those way out towards the extreme end of that tail in the distribution of genetics with the right environmental factors and it's probably not surprising that there's sovereign citizen types.

Around half of sexuality also seems to be accounted for by genetics in the same types of studies. Even in societies far more overtly repressive and violent towards their genetic predispositions, people have been gay. The answer is quite possibly the same. Some people are born with a pretty strong predisposition to be gay. Some are born with a pretty strong predisposition to be sovereign citizens.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:38 PM
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The most annoying sovereign citizen on the planet.

I saw this one recently, who has an incredibly patient boyfriend, but I wonder if she does for long.
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Old 05-31-2019, 07:42 PM
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Seems to me that if you believed the state has no legitimate authority over you it would be liberating. Some people get joy out of bucking the system. Others would rather go with the flow and live more comfortably.
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:00 PM
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I saw this one recently, who has an incredibly patient boyfriend, but I wonder if she does for long.
Thanks for ruining the rest of my night, I have no choice except to watch all these morons on YouTube!
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:18 PM
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By all indications, they exist for the purpose of taser-testing.

And they make a very satisfying thump when they hit the floor.

Last edited by JRDelirious; 05-31-2019 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:29 PM
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The most annoying sovereign citizen on the planet.
"I get all the rights of being a citizen, without having to follow the laws." Sounds pretty sweet, where do I sign up?

Seriously, anyone know whatever happened to her?
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:36 PM
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As far as I can tell, the Sovereign Citizen motivation is all political and tightwaddery. They never mention God in their ranting. Why would anyone follow this nonsense? All those fake driver's licenses written on cardboard, and being shot by police over not buying a $26.00 fishing permit, and then, fishing in the municipal fish stocking pond. (That was something I heard from the videos, I don't know which one.)

It all seems like your life would steadily get worse and worse doing this stuff, and for what? So you can say, "I know the Constitution better that you ever will."? Who cares, you're not going to win. They must know that.
I think you're approaching this from the wrong direction. Sovereign Citizens don't start by studying the Constitution and then develop an ideology that says they don't have to follow any rules. Instead they start with a belief that they don't want to follow any rules and then they seek out an ideology which supports that belief. And they're able to find people who will tell them what they wanted to hear.
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:39 PM
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Sovereign citizens are odd creatures, Moorish-Americans a bit more so since they also work race into the mix.
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:45 PM
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The most annoying sovereign citizen on the planet.
That guy is very patient and why would you post that of yourself?
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Old 05-31-2019, 08:58 PM
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There have also been unscrupulous people who write books outlining how to be an SC. They get money. The police and courts get a headache.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:09 PM
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In Canada, SCs have tried to get out of owing money for debts, not lose their driver's licenses, avoid arrest (actually succeeded ... once), not lose money in a divorce and not pay taxes.

In the first case, someone mailed the bank he had his mortgage some stamps that he claimed were worth millions of dollars. Or maybe fake cheques. Either way, the bank said no, despite OPCA (Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments) saying this was valid.

There's the common story of people saying they're "traveling", not driving. That never works.

Somebody physically resisted arrest. He got arrested anyway. He actually won the case through some BS. I think the police officer had overstepped his authority, but that shouldn't allow violent retaliation. The appropriate response would be to sue the police officer.

A divorced man wanted to get out of paying spousal support. He made a series of claims as to how his marriage wasn't valid in the first place. (Wouldn't signing a marriage contract indicate you gave consent to that contract? He had an unexpected response to that one...)

Canada had one or more "businesses" (such as Paradigm) that taught the "secret technique" to not having to pay taxes. Or even better, Fiscal Arbitrators, who would get you huge refunds based on previous tax returns, by claiming all kinds of personal expenses as "agent" expenses. (The taxpayer is split into two people, one of whom conveniently does not have to pay taxes, since that "person" doesn't have a Social Insurance Number.) Even making that argument in court loses you the case and applies restrictions on you (so you can't go to court anymore without certain conditions).

Many of these people are desperate and, knowing they can't win the case, grab onto some nonsense. It doesn't work and often backfires. And some people (like the detaxers) are just greedy.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:10 PM
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My favorite part is the soopersekrit bank accounts that have millyuns of bucks in them that are there for the asking if you just say the magic words.
Wait, what? I've seen a lot of videos, but I've never seen those claims. That's fantastic - what pot of gold do they think they have the right to, and where do they think the end of the rainbow is?
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:18 PM
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Wait, what? I've seen a lot of videos, but I've never seen those claims. That's fantastic - what pot of gold do they think they have the right to, and where do they think the end of the rainbow is?
It is called "Redemption Theory" and it is covered early on in this article about Sovereign Citizens.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:19 PM
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Rick and the others claiming powerlessness have it correct. Everything stems from that.

SCs and the group of people who know they lack power to control their own lives and don't understand why. Being a SC gives them that sense of power back. And it's like a drug, this believing you are powerful. It makes one feel more secure and in control.

Sadly, it's not the case, but they'll never admit it because to do so would be to come face to face with how small and insignificant they truly are.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:26 PM
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The most annoying sovereign citizen on the planet.
Wow. What was up with the bag? Was she, somehow, wearing it?
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:32 PM
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They're idiots who don't read after the first sentence or think about anything critically. Take Article IV (AOC) Right to Travel
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The better to secure and perpetuate mutual friendship and intercourse among the people of the different states in this union, the free inhabitants of each of these states, paupers, vagabonds and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of free citizens in the several states; and the people of each state shall have free ingress and regress to and from any other state, and shall enjoy therein all the privileges of trade and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions and restrictions as the inhabitants thereof respectively, provided that such restriction shall not extend so far as to prevent the removal of property imported into any state, to any other state, of which the Owner is an inhabitant; provided also that no imposition, duties or restriction shall be laid by any state, on the property of the united states, or either of them.
These SovCits don't stop to think
1) Does this apply in states that never signed the Articles of Confederation?
2) Is this superseded by the Constitution.
3) Does this apply to intrastate travel or does it mean no state can bar me entry?

Most Americans are simply, "Don't need driver's license. Derp!!!"
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:40 PM
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My favorite part is the soopersekrit bank accounts that have millyuns of bucks in them that are there for the asking if you just say the magic words.
And use the proper capitalization and punctuation.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:42 PM
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Seems to me that if you believed the state has no legitimate authority over you it would be liberating. Some people get joy out of bucking the system. Others would rather go with the flow and live more comfortably.
And if you buck the system long enough, in time, you will be bucked OUT of the system.

I wonder if one of my HS classmates and her husband are SVs. Her Facebook page was one of the oddest I've ever seen; in short, they belong to a fringe religious sect whose members work only for cash, pay for everything in cash, do not use banks or insurance, and in their case, they also homeschooled their kids so they wouldn't be exposed to people whose ideas differed from theirs. I later found out that they live in a house that was purchased outright by her very wealthy parents, who then sold it to them on contract.

She was highly intelligent, and I always liked her, but nope, no way was I going to send her a friend request.
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Old 05-31-2019, 09:43 PM
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Sovereign citizens are odd creatures, Moorish-Americans a bit more so since they also work race into the mix.
And pseudo-history. They claim the Moroccans were in North America before white people, and they're descended from them.
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:38 PM
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Seems to me that if you believed the state has no legitimate authority over you it would be liberating. Some people get joy out of bucking the system. Others would rather go with the flow and live more comfortably.
As the philosopher, Robert Fuller, once said "I fought the law. And the law won."

You might not agree with the legitimacy of the government. But your disagreement doesn't make the government disappear.

People who think the pleasure of "bucking the system" is worth the consequences of the system responding are short term thinkers. You get to yell at a judge for a few hours and then you spend a few years in prison.

Smart people recognize that the system exists and figure out ways to get around it.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:01 PM
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Seems to me that if you believed the state has no legitimate authority over you it would be liberating. Some people get joy out of bucking the system. Others would rather go with the flow and live more comfortably.
Well, that's just the thing. I believe the state has no legitimate authority over me. The state is just a mafia protection scheme. The difference between me and the SovCits is that I also believe that the cops and judges and prison guards and soldiers have guns and organization, and if I don't go along with their mafia protection scheme they're going to squash me like a bug, like, you know, a mafia guy would when I tell him that I'm not going to pay him the protection money since I never agreed to submit myself to his authority. No, when I tell the mafia guy I'm not going to pay, he gets out a baseball bat and breaks my kneecaps, that's what makes him a mafia guy. And when I tell the cops and the judges and the prison guards I'm not going to pay my taxes or obey their so-called "laws", my expectation is that they will get out their baseball bats and go to town on my kneecaps. I won't like it when the cops beat the crap out of me for not obeying, but I won't be surprised either.

That's the silly thing. Yes, the government is illegitimate, we get it. You still have to obey their laws, or they get cranky. So either get good at evading the fascist cops, or get good at following the orders of the fascist cops, but either way don't be surprised when the fascist cops start beating the crap out of you, that's a fascist cop's job.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:37 PM
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Yes, the government is illegitimate, we get it.
Who is this "we" of which you speak?
  #36  
Old 06-01-2019, 12:23 AM
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SC's are libertarians on crack.

Fin.
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Old 06-01-2019, 12:55 AM
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As far as I can tell, the Sovereign Citizen motivation is all political and tightwaddery. They never mention God in their ranting.
Some very much do mention God, as they only follow 'God's Laws', not the laws of men, which is why they don't need driver licenses, etc. I've seen their court filings, full of the normal sovereign stuff, but full of biblical references as well. It just varies by your flavor of crackpot.

The Meads v Meads decision by Assoc Chief Justice Rooke, which is the go-to document on sovereign arguments and why they're bullshit, notes the tactics of Edward Belanger, who uses faith in his arguments. Belanger has argued that the King James Bible is the primary overriding law of Canada.

Quatloos has forums all about their nonsense in different countries.
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Old 06-01-2019, 01:10 AM
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I admit I find it interesting that many (most?) don't view it as some kind of cynical evasion but have bought into it as an actual thing, judging from youtube videos of them completely panicking as their rituals fail when confronted by cops who are being TOTALLY uncool about the whole thing.


P. Barnes is still one of my heroes.
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Old 06-01-2019, 01:30 AM
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I think that's really all it is. They're taking the constitution and applying it incorrectly. Fueled by keyboard commandos, they end up taking way too far.
It it were only keyboard commandos, it wouldn't be so widespread. No, people exploit this stuff for profit, writing books where they claim it's worked for them.

That one Canadian court case where the judge explained the history of the movement involved a lot of hucksters.

It's like the "get rich quick" schemes and MLM marketing--you create an idea to appeal to people who feel trapped, and then you make money off of them.

The idea that they are actually the ones doing the reading and coming up with the ideas is silly. The hucksters do that. Sure, maybe some people learn of it online for free, but it was still started by a huckster.

Last edited by BigT; 06-01-2019 at 01:32 AM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 02:16 AM
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Somebody physically resisted arrest. He got arrested anyway. He actually won the case through some BS. I think the police officer had overstepped his authority, but that shouldn't allow violent retaliation. The appropriate response would be to sue the police officer.
That was R. v. Duncan, 2013 ONCJ 160:

https://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/do...ocompletePos=1

Mr. Duncan didn't really win the case through BS, and it certainly wasn't due to his using Freemen-on-the-Land (FOTL) tactics. It was a misunderstanding of the Highway Traffic Act (yep, this all stemmed from a traffic stop over Mr. Duncan allegedly failing to use a turn signal), on the part of the police. When Mr. Duncan refused to identify himself, things escalated.

The judge ruled that since there were no grounds for a traffic stop, owing to the officers' misunderstanding of the Act, then the charge needed to be tossed, and everything that happened subsequently that led to charges should be tossed too. The judge did take care to say that while the matter was dismissed, Mr. Duncan's attempt to use FOTL methods had nothing to do with the dismissal, and all Mr. Duncan did in that regard only wasted his and the court's time.
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Old 06-01-2019, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
What CTs buy into is a system of positive ignorance. Sovereign citizens share an entire mythology of looniness that is identical to a religion, with common beliefs, benefits of having those beliefs, people to accuse of persecution if they counter the beliefs, and superiority to those who do not believe. The power of a religion is that it can't be refuted from the outside. People have to voluntarily and internally give up the belief. That's extremely hard for most people. Evidence shows that the majority of believers would rather die than give up their beliefs. (Figuratively, today, except in some parts of the world.)

The best aspect of sovereign citizens is that they're lousy proselytizers. But that just means that a new belief system will replace them, and it will be just as loony and as mysterious to outsiders.
They're good enough at proselytizing to perpetually aggrieved, especially the people who fit into two categories: People in a lot of debt, frequently to the IRS, and people who had their kids taken away from them by CPS or in a divorce. (There's almost a subculture of people who are really, really angry at the whole idea of Child Protective Services, for reasons which are as depressing as they are obvious.) Get the right mix of desperation and unwarranted self-importance and you have a mindset quite fertile for the whole Sovereign Citizen religion. And there are, of course, people, known as "gurus", who are more than willing to sell seminars and books to spread the nonsense to them.

But the biggest single source of perpetual grievance is race: The original Sovereign Citizens came from the Posse Comitatus organization from the 1960s, which was founded by a member of the Nazi-inspired Silver Shirts. The idea of being "free" from the Federal Government was, therefore, mixed up with the idea of being "free" from the Jew-controlled race-mixing Federal government which was then cracking down on Jim Crow. More recent is the "Black Auxiliary" Sovereign Citizen movement, the Washitaw Nation spun off the Moorish Science Temple (already the parent organization to the Nation of Islam and the Almighty Black P. Stone Nation (El Rukn) street gang) which believes that Black people are the real Native Americans and that all land is therefore theirs and therefore get out of your house now because I'm squatting in it.
  #42  
Old 06-01-2019, 06:08 AM
Derleth is online now
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Here's an interesting list of the kinds of people who become Sovereign Citizens which is part of an introduction to the concept as a whole:
Quote:
Originally Posted by issendai
  1. People with serious money troubles or legal problems. When you’re so deep in the hole that you can’t see daylight any more, you’ll grasp at just about anything that offers a wisp of hope.
  2. People who have had way too many run-ins with the police. Some are sick of being detained for Being in Public While Black. Some are assholes who are going to have the cops riding their asses for the rest of their lives because of their charming personalities and/or fondness for intoxicants. The conventional ways of fighting back don’t work for these people, and they’re desperate for something, anything, that can give them at least the feeling of taking their power back.
  3. People who resent authority. These come in two flavors:
    • Whiners. Best typified by the string of exquisitely passive-aggressive young white men who take cameras into courthouses and police precincts to conduct “First Amendment audits.” They wander the halls, filming, until someone asks them to stop recording, then they spend the next half-hour needling officials, making demands, and being condescending dicks. Their official purpose is to educate the police in the public’s right to record in public. The payoff they’re looking for, by their own account, is much different.
    • Ranters. A more dangerous wing of the movement, focused on gaining absolute freedom, independence, and the right to resist anyone in authority. At the mild end, Ernie terTelgte, “The Natural Man,” who turned a missing $25 fishing license into a year-plus legal saga with multiple jail stints for contempt. At the serious end, the Posse Comitatus.
  4. Conspiratorial nuts. Some people are drawn toward anything that looks like secret knowledge. They want to know what’s behind the curtain, how the world really works. More importantly, they need to feel unique and in control. Sovereign citizens are still uncommon, so being a sovereign is a surefire way to feel set apart from the herd, and the movement’s techniques are all about taking control. It’s conspiracy-theorist catnip.
Some of these people would believe weird shit regardless, others fell into it because they felt hopeless.
  #43  
Old 06-01-2019, 07:05 AM
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The is a peculiar madness to some men who argue for their rights. My mind is always drawn to a young Jefferson Davis.

As a cadet at West Point he was court martialed for being "drunk on spirits." He got out of the charges by saying he had been drinking beer. What a clever lad.

He went on to argue that since the Constitution did not say succession was illegal, it must be legal.

I am now reading his Short History of the Confederate States of America. He was still an argumentative ass. He seems to be pointing out that because of his clever words things that happened did not happen because they should not have happened.

Some people just think they are so smart that the rules do not apply to them.
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  #44  
Old 06-01-2019, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
As the philosopher, Robert Fuller, once said "I fought the law. And the law won."

You might not agree with the legitimacy of the government. But your disagreement doesn't make the government disappear.

People who think the pleasure of "bucking the system" is worth the consequences of the system responding are short term thinkers. You get to yell at a judge for a few hours and then you spend a few years in prison.

Smart people recognize that the system exists and figure out ways to get around it.
Yes I agree that the sovcits have very high time preference and are short term thinkers, especially the characters we see in the funny videos.

I don’t agree that they are less intelligent than the average joe. The average joe doesn’t even comprehend or wish to comprehend the world of ideas.

As someone who lives in an urban environment, sovcits seem a bit nuts. On the other hand, I could see someone living in extreme rural environments being a sovcit and actually doing well for themselves to a certain extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
Well, that's just the thing. I believe the state has no legitimate authority over me. The state is just a mafia protection scheme. The difference between me and the SovCits is that I also believe that the cops and judges and prison guards and soldiers have guns and organization, and if I don't go along with their mafia protection scheme they're going to squash me like a bug, like, you know, a mafia guy would when I tell him that I'm not going to pay him the protection money since I never agreed to submit myself to his authority. No, when I tell the mafia guy I'm not going to pay, he gets out a baseball bat and breaks my kneecaps, that's what makes him a mafia guy. And when I tell the cops and the judges and the prison guards I'm not going to pay my taxes or obey their so-called "laws", my expectation is that they will get out their baseball bats and go to town on my kneecaps. I won't like it when the cops beat the crap out of me for not obeying, but I won't be surprised either.

That's the silly thing. Yes, the government is illegitimate, we get it. You still have to obey their laws, or they get cranky. So either get good at evading the fascist cops, or get good at following the orders of the fascist cops, but either way don't be surprised when the fascist cops start beating the crap out of you, that's a fascist cop's job.
Yes I am inspired by persecuted minorities throughout history who didn’t make waves and ended up being well off. Take the Japanese Americans and the Jews for example. Bucking the system has never worked well for a geographical minority and the individual is the world’s smallest minority.
  #45  
Old 06-01-2019, 10:19 AM
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SovCits are the equivalent of people who see a "you get $1 trillion if you vacate your lease by the end of the year" in the tiny writing on a contract and think they'll get it. Just because it says it doesn't mean you could get it; it's impractical.

Or like 2nd-Amendment people who think that "the right to bear arms shall not be infringed" means you get to have a private nuclear arsenal. The world is not 100% faithful to technicalities; it's impractical.
  #46  
Old 06-01-2019, 11:23 AM
Little Nemo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
Yes I agree that the sovcits have very high time preference and are short term thinkers, especially the characters we see in the funny videos.

I don’t agree that they are less intelligent than the average joe. The average joe doesn’t even comprehend or wish to comprehend the world of ideas.

As someone who lives in an urban environment, sovcits seem a bit nuts. On the other hand, I could see someone living in extreme rural environments being a sovcit and actually doing well for themselves to a certain extent.
Sovereign Citizens are far less intelligent than the average person. Average people can recognize reality and deal with it. Sovereign Citizens are unable to handle something that basic. When you start thinking the world of ideas is somehow more real than the world you live in, you're not living intelligently.

If you're running as fast as you can with your eyes closed and you're in a forest, you're going to run into a tree very soon. If you're running as fast as you can with your eyes closed and you're in a field, you might be able to run along for some time without hitting something. But either way, you're still running with your eyes closed and that's a dumb way to travel. Smart people open their eyes and steer around the obstacles rather than imagine they can run through them. Only idiots think they can run in any direction as long as they refuse to admit obstacles exist.
  #47  
Old 06-01-2019, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
I believe you will find that sovereign citizen types are very disproportionately likely to be people who have recurring problems with the law in a sort of minor civil / misdeameanor way - tax problems, failure to pay child support, can't get a disability benefit, traffic tickets, recurring income/property tax crap, stuff like that, things that tend to most affect people who just cannot quite get all their shit together. Dealing with this is frustrating, and if a person feels THE SYSTEM cannot be beaten or even reasoned with, the idea that the system can be defeated though some back channel/magic word type thing - again, like you might see in a movie - can be really, really appealing. People will hold on to those sorts of beliefs with a fervor that defies all logic, because the alternative - to truly admit their own problems and the hard work it takes to fix them - is so much more difficult.
My brother went SovCit over ten years ago, and this describes him perfectly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
A lot of it can be solved by the officer saying (and I've seen them do this), 'show me where it says that in the constitution and then we'll talk about it'. Too many of these people are parroting what they read online without going through the simple task of fact checking to make sure it's true. The constitution is pretty easy to find on the internet. If you're going to (possibly, literally) die on that hill, you should have good grasp of what's contained in it.
The problem is that they do not believe the constitution is valid. That at the time of the civil war the Constitution of "These United States" was replaced with a forgery for "The United States".

(and that somehow, govt officials are aware of this, and will use the old original valid constitution to treat you if you know the magic words. Or something, don't ask me, it hurts my brain just knowing what I do know.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemur866 View Post
That's the silly thing. Yes, the government is illegitimate, we get it. You still have to obey their laws, or they get cranky. So either get good at evading the fascist cops, or get good at following the orders of the fascist cops, but either way don't be surprised when the fascist cops start beating the crap out of you, that's a fascist cop's job.
I used the same metaphor with my brother. "Is the Mafia a legitimate govt?" "No." "Will they still break your kneecaps if you don't pay them?"

"You will be screaming and yelling that they don't have the right to do this, as they put you in handcuffs, take you to jail, put you in front of a judge, and send you to prison."

Which is exactly how that played out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Sovereign Citizens are far less intelligent than the average person. Average people can recognize reality and deal with it. Sovereign Citizens are unable to handle something that basic. When you start thinking the world of ideas is somehow more real than the world you live in, you're not living intelligently.
Of the SovCits that I've met (sample size 3, with only one I knew well), they were pretty smart, probably smarter than average. The problem is is that they thought that they were much smarter than that.

Smart people are as, or even more, susceptible to delusional thinking.
Quote:
If you're running as fast as you can with your eyes closed and you're in a forest, you're going to run into a tree very soon. If you're running as fast as you can with your eyes closed and you're in a field, you might be able to run along for some time without hitting something. But either way, you're still running with your eyes closed and that's a dumb way to travel. Smart people open their eyes and steer around the obstacles rather than imagine they can run through them. Only idiots think they can run in any direction as long as they refuse to admit obstacles exist.
Or, those deluded enough to think that the trees will get out of their way as the recognize the superior qualities of the blind runner.
  #48  
Old 06-01-2019, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
The problem is that they do not believe the constitution is valid. That at the time of the civil war the Constitution of "These United States" was replaced with a forgery for "The United States".
That may be the case, but I'm guessing a good chunk of what they say isn't in the original draft either. In fact, if you dig up a 200+ year old document, I think we can all be sure that it doesn't give anyone the right to drive a car.
  #49  
Old 06-01-2019, 01:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey P View Post
That may be the case, but I'm guessing a good chunk of what they say isn't in the original draft either. In fact, if you dig up a 200+ year old document, I think we can all be sure that it doesn't give anyone the right to drive a car.
Please don't think that I am in any way defending them, nor even trying to make sense of their argument, but to show that the very basis of their argument is based in conspiracy against them.
  #50  
Old 06-01-2019, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
The problem is that they do not believe the constitution is valid. That at the time of the civil war the Constitution of "These United States" was replaced with a forgery for "The United States".

(and that somehow, govt officials are aware of this, and will use the old original valid constitution to treat you if you know the magic words. Or something, don't ask me, it hurts my brain just knowing what I do
.
Gods, it’s like those hilarious throwaway lines from the OSI in The Venture Brothers: “You’ll be vanquishing enemies for the organization that’s been defending the us since the 2nd American Revolution! The Invisible one!”

“Don’t tell Secret President about my condition!”
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