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  #151  
Old 07-30-2019, 06:10 PM
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Just a note for the posters discussing those who renounce their citizenship above: those "sovcits" morons are not and have not renounced their US citizenship. They cannot do so while within the territory of the United States. Renunciation must be accomplished overseas in front of a consular official at a US consulate, while also paying the appropriate fee (currently $2,350) and proving that you have no outstanding taxes to be paid, IIRC.
  #152  
Old 07-30-2019, 06:16 PM
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Just a note for the posters discussing those who renounce their citizenship above: those "sovcits" morons are not and have not renounced their US citizenship. They cannot do so while within the territory of the United States. Renunciation must be accomplished overseas in front of a consular official at a US consulate, while also paying the appropriate fee (currently $2,350) and proving that you have no outstanding taxes to be paid, IIRC.
Well, they can't renounce their citizenship properly - not that these fuckwads are particularly interested in doing things according to the proper rules of law.

Not that it matters in this case - the fuckwads in question aren't interested in renouncing their citizenship. They like it here - they want the government to leave, or at least get out of their way.

Suffice to say that the government isn't going to get out of their way, nor is it going to play along with the idea that it doesn't have sovereignty over these so-called sovereign citizens. Unless they do leave, via proper methods, they're going to lose every single conflict they have with authority, and reap the legal rewards of any tomfoolery they perpetrate.
  #153  
Old 08-01-2019, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Monty View Post
Just a note for the posters discussing those who renounce their citizenship above: those "sovcits" morons are not and have not renounced their US citizenship. They cannot do so while within the territory of the United States. Renunciation must be accomplished overseas in front of a consular official at a US consulate, while also paying the appropriate fee (currently $2,350) and proving that you have no outstanding taxes to be paid, IIRC.
So we should do them a favor and make a special rule for them.

<SoV of the family cI'T> I am an Article 4 traveler and do not bind myself to any joinder with this admiralty court.

<Judge> So you do not believe you need to obey any US laws?

<SoV of the family cI'T> That is correct. I am a Freeman of Natural Body and have not agreed to any contract of joindership with manmade governments.

<Judge> So you have voluntarily renounced your United States citizenship and we are putting you on the first flight to Eritrea.
  #154  
Old 08-02-2019, 03:12 PM
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What SCs get out of it is a sense of power over their own lives. It's actually kind of like the crazies who believe in QAnon. Both conspiracy theories allow a person to pretend, or maybe quite believe, that they understand things that are actually way too hard to understand; that the government, impersonal and complex and powerful, can be reduced to a very simple set of good buys, bad guys, and simple rules, like it is in the movies.
(snip)
There’s another element at work in the thinking of sovcits and conspiracy theorists, I think: a desire for a sense of coherence. Your son is develops autism. Why did this happen? Genetics, environmental toxins, metabolic imbalances, sheer bad luck; who knows what tipped the scale? Hard to understand just why a random mélange of factors caused this. It’s much easier, and more satisfying, to say that it’s because the gummint and Big Pharma forced you to vaccinate him.

It’s not only about having someone to blame. It’s also about having a sense that misfortunes have a cause, that someone or something is in charge. “My life sucks, but at least I know why: the Jews/government/Illuminati/aliens from Tralfamadore arranged it that way.” We're hard-wired to seek patterns, after all; and a seemingly uncaused phenomenon makes us uncomfortable. Umberto Eco explored that sort of thinking in Foucault’s Pendulum.

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I still maintain the Confederacy was an 1860-version of this movement.
Oh, come on; they didn't even have auto glass and tasers in 1861.
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Last edited by Slow Moving Vehicle; 08-02-2019 at 03:14 PM.
  #155  
Old 08-02-2019, 08:12 PM
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...<Judge> So you have voluntarily renounced your United States citizenship and we are putting you on the first flight to Eritrea.
Upon further consideration, Your Honor....
  #156  
Old 10-03-2019, 10:08 AM
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An AMU article about the dangers posed by SovCitzs: https://inpublicsafety.com/2019/09/w...gn=20191001IPS
  #157  
Old 10-03-2019, 12:03 PM
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There’s another element at work in the thinking of sovcits and conspiracy theorists, I think: a desire for a sense of coherence. Your son is develops autism. Why did this happen? Genetics, environmental toxins, metabolic imbalances, sheer bad luck; who knows what tipped the scale? Hard to understand just why a random mélange of factors caused this. It’s much easier, and more satisfying, to say that it’s because the gummint and Big Pharma forced you to vaccinate him.
I wholeheartedly agree.

The universe is complex beyond the capacity of the human mind to comprehend. Misfortune and difficulty is often - actually, almost always - the product of forces we either do not really understand, or only barely so. There are no sure bets. It's very, very hard to grasp, and harder to accept.

The law is only one billionth of a billionth as complex as life in general, and yet it's still astoundingly hard to fully understand. Look, for instance, at this week's verdict and sentence in the infamous Amber Guyger murder trial. Most people are to one extent or another dissatisfied with the result; either they think Guyger should have been acquitted/convicted of a lesser charge, or convicted and sent to prison for a thousand years or hanged. In fact, the verdict and sentence were perfectly appropriate - but in fairness, not only is it natural to think of these things emotionally, but the Texas Penal Code section on homicide is a long bit of highly technical reading, using terms of art that are often hard to know the technical meaning of. And that's one of the most simple crimes you can imagine. The complexities of tax law or divorce law or legal procedure are just incredible. To a person caught up in some kind of legal trouble the temptation to believe there is some WAY simpler explanation, something that explains why life is so hard, can be sufficiently overwhelming to defeat reason.

We do this is so many areas of life, just usually at a less insane and ridiculous level.
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  #158  
Old 10-03-2019, 01:44 PM
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Upon further consideration, Your Honor....
Save some money. We have all these detainment camps full of people who shouldn't be there. Let them leave and fill the camps with SovCits, who should be there. I mean, they can't prove they are legally in the USA. Detain them!
  #159  
Old 10-04-2019, 03:24 PM
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To a person caught up in some kind of legal trouble the temptation to believe there is some WAY simpler explanation, something that explains why life is so hard, can be sufficiently overwhelming to defeat reason.
This is backwards. People are in legal trouble because of their sov cit nonsense like not registering their car or having a driver's licence because they are an Article IV traveler or not paying taxes because Ohio is not a state. It boils down that sov cits are selfish - wanting all of the rights of being a citizen without any of the responsibilities so they willingly accept any BS "logic" that justifies their self-centered views.
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  #160  
Old 10-04-2019, 04:32 PM
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I just want to toss in, let's not confuse Soverign Citizens with people who 'test Border Patrol Officers stops' or 'test Fruit inspectors (??) stops'....yes, they also come off as stupid and assholish...but they're also right sometimes. And often in those videos the BP or whoever have been very poorly trained.
  #161  
Old 10-04-2019, 06:46 PM
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Quatloos has forums all about their nonsense in different countries.
You almost have to admire somebody who can appear before a Canadian court, argue that he isn't subject to the United States Constitution, and then have the judge rule against him. It takes a heroic effort to fuck up in court that badly.
  #162  
Old 10-04-2019, 11:11 PM
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What Do Sovereign Citizens Get Out of All Their Nonsense?
Jail. They get jail.
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  #163  
Old 10-05-2019, 12:32 AM
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Does Japan have these guys?
  #164  
Old 10-05-2019, 01:31 AM
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You almost have to admire somebody who can appear before a Canadian court, argue that he isn't subject to the United States Constitution, and then have the judge rule against him. It takes a heroic effort to fuck up in court that badly.
I get your point, but of course nobody physically in Canada is subject to the United States Constitution.

The real wackiness ensues when Freemen-on-the-Land (FOTL) or SovCits cite the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) in a Canadian court, or on their pile of documents. The UCC is not Canadian law, so it holds no weight in Canada. "But wait," says the FOTL, "Canada is a fully-owned corporation of the United States, incorporated in Washington DC." Or sometimes Canada is incorporated in London, UK. Either way, it's not true. It would be humorous, but the fact that FOTLs and SovCits believe it with such fervour makes it scary.
  #165  
Old 10-05-2019, 11:55 AM
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"Canada is a fully-owned corporation of the United States, incorporated in Washington DC."
Of course it is.
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  #166  
Old 10-05-2019, 10:58 PM
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I get your point, but of course nobody physically in Canada is subject to the United States Constitution....
U.S. citizens visiting Canada are. Here are just three examples of Federal laws enacted pursuant to the Constitution that apply outside the U.S.:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreig..._Practices_Act
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROTECT_Act_of_2003
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern...ping_Crime_Act

Canadian criminal law applies to them, too, of course.
  #167  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:30 PM
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Bottom line, they're morons with a deep, fundamental, and complete misunderstanding of exactly what the government is and how it functions. They erroneously believe they can exist outside of the government's authority, yet at the same time benefit from it. They are completely ignorant of the law and yet believe they can manipulate it to their advantage with "magic words" and trivial technicalities like capitalizing certain words in documents. They are near perfect examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
They sound kinda like the founders to me; just came and took.
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