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  #51  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by spifflog View Post
And at some point, you have to ask "why didn't this come out 20 years ago?"
Why would you ask this? It should be very clear to you that even now, telling the authorities about rape and sexual assault is extremely dangerous for women, only occasionally resulting in a positive outcome (i.e. justice), with a very high risk of humiliation, social shaming, and further trauma. Twenty years ago it was much, much worse. And against a powerful, wealthy man?

Are you joking, or were you really ignorant of this?

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  #52  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:19 AM
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And at some point, you have to ask "why didn't this come out 20 years ago?"

Hell I think he's a pig. And I don't like the guy. But what took her 20 frick'n years to come forward? Why now? And why has this woman been assaulted by so many men?

No one is condoning rape or assault. But it's pretty f'ing hard to prove a negative, and it's really hard to prove a negative 20 years later. At some point, you've allowed your opportunity at outrage pass.
For most people, and especially women, it is really hard to come out and say you've been sexually assaulted. Can you get your head around that? There are so many stigmas there that only the brave, the broken or the desperate come out right away and make a public claim.
  #53  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:20 AM
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Hate crimes happen too, but Jussie Smollet is still a liar. Everyone knows this woman's story is fishy, even if they won't openly admit it. Liberals just don't care, that's all.
OK, then how about a House investigation into what is it now, all 22 credible sexual assault accusations against Trump?

I'm sure you wouldn't object to separating the wheat from the chaff.
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Old 06-27-2019, 08:26 AM
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For most people, and especially women, it is really hard to come out and say you've been sexually assaulted. Can you get your head around that? There are so many stigmas there that only the brave, the broken or the desperate come out right away and make a public claim.
This.

Plus the conviction rate on rape charges is astonishingly low. Hell, the indictment rate is astonishingly low. In a situation like Ms. Carroll describes, it's her word against his - hardly a 'beyond a reasonable doubt' level of evidence: what prosecutor is going to indict?

Women know this. They know that in situations like this, there will be no justice, just an adding-on to the trauma they've already been through. So what's the point in coming forward, until they see their attacker becoming someone whose name they can't avoid, reminding them all the time of what they went through?
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Old 06-27-2019, 08:26 AM
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No, it is a fishy story, as you well know.
I understand your emotional dedication to Trumpism, but there is no element of the story that's hard to believe.

Trumpists come in two categories; those who just engage in cognitive dissonance to pretend he's not what he obviously is, and those who actually LIKE the fact he's a monster - the "as long as he hurts the right people" crowd, if you will. There are no other Trumpists; all are one of those two types. But there's no doubt at all he's a monster; no one, save maybe his kids, really believes he's not.
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  #56  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:27 AM
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OK, then how about a House investigation into what is it now, all 22 credible sexual assault accusations against Trump?
We only need those for consensual bj's.
  #57  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:27 AM
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It's so weird how posters like Shodan can put effort into thoughtful and reasonable posts on a variety of topics, but then something like this comes out and all he can do is mindlessly denigrate a woman for doing nothing more than talking about something that happened to her. Are you deliberately turning off a switch that turns you into knee-jerk mode? Is it really that much more important to fight liberals than to fight rape and sexual assault that you'd so gleefully abandon even the possibility of thoughtfulness and compassion towards a possible rape victim?
  #58  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:36 AM
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Like Christine Blasey Ford, E. Jean Carroll's allegation is very vague. You know why? Because the moment she puts a specific date, Trump is going to produce evidence he wasn't even in the area when she claims it happened. Trump was the King of New York. He every movement is probably documented in some way. Why doesn't Ms. Carroll give a specific date? Because she is lying.

"Carroll places the ensuing incident in late 1995 or early 1996, during which time Trump was married to Marla Maples."
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...ccusation.html
  #59  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:47 AM
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Like Christine Blasey Ford, E. Jean Carroll's allegation is very vague. You know why? Because the moment she puts a specific date, Trump is going to produce evidence he wasn't even in the area when she claims it happened. Trump was the King of New York. He every movement is probably documented in some way. Why doesn't Ms. Carroll give a specific date? Because she is lying.

"Carroll places the ensuing incident in late 1995 or early 1996, during which time Trump was married to Marla Maples."
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/...ccusation.html
Sometimes things bear repeating:

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I understand your emotional dedication to Trumpism, but there is no element of the story that's hard to believe.

Trumpists come in two categories; those who just engage in cognitive dissonance to pretend he's not what he obviously is, and those who actually LIKE the fact he's a monster - the "as long as he hurts the right people" crowd, if you will. There are no other Trumpists; all are one of those two types. But there's no doubt at all he's a monster; no one, save maybe his kids, really believes he's not.
Only question, LAZombie, is which one are you?
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  #60  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:51 AM
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Sometimes things bear repeating:

Only question, LAZombie, is which one are you?
E. Jean Carroll is an author who writes about herself constantly, but in this case, she forgot to write down the date of this horrific event? I think not.
  #61  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:55 AM
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Why doesn't Ms. Carroll give a specific date? Because she is lying.
Just wanted to make sure this accusation, in all its absurdity, bad faith, and sheer stupidity, was set out in all its glory.
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Old 06-27-2019, 08:57 AM
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Like Christine Blasey Ford, E. Jean Carroll's allegation is very vague. You know why? Because the moment she puts a specific date, Trump is going to produce evidence he wasn't even in the area when she claims it happened. Trump was the King of New York. He every movement is probably documented in some way. Why doesn't Ms. Carroll give a specific date?
I am totally with you on this. If she were to make up a date, it would just prompt the right-wing Fox News crowd to find that Trump could not have been there on that date.

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Because she is lying.[/url]
Wait, what?!?

You're saying that she can't give us a specific date because she's lying? What weird world do you live in, where people have to know the specific date of something that happened more than 20 years ago? You think everyone keeps a diary or something?
  #63  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:58 AM
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And at some point, you have to ask "why didn't this come out 20 years ago?"
It’s obvious that she listened to the one friend that advised her to stay quiet about it, out of concern that Trump would try to destroy her.

Just like he’s doing right now.
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Old 06-27-2019, 09:02 AM
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E. Jean Carroll is an author who writes about herself constantly, but in this case, she forgot to write down the date of this horrific event?
You've never experienced an event in your life that you'd want to put behind you but couldn't, and the only thing you could manage is to forget the exact date?

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I think not.
Clearly. Never too late to start.
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  #65  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:42 AM
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I understand your emotional dedication to Trumpism, but there is no element of the story that's hard To believe.
Well.....

A guy walks up to you in a clothing store and suggests you model lingerie for him (literally the creepiest pick up line ever, but it’s Trump, so ok.)

You respond positively to this and pick out a transparent piece of lingerie and go with him into the dressing room of Bergdorf Goodman. He then aggressively tries to have sex with you. You push him away laughing (this is her story, mind you). Then he engages in intercourse. You never say “no” “stop” or scream for help, though it is a small dressing room in a crowded store in a public place. It’s not really clear from your own story that you ever withdrew consent You don’t describe the aftermath. You don’t go to the police. You don’t tell anyone except two close friends. You don’t mention in your columns or public forums though you have a platform and a voice that would let you do so. You don’t come out and mention during the 2016 elections when many other credible allegations against Trump and his bad behavior come out.

In fact, you don’t mention it until you are writing a book and making your tour to sell books. A strong argument made with many of these types of allegations is that the women coming forward have nothing to gain. You, trying to sell a book have a lot to gain.

You refuse to press charges or let the police investigate though there is not a statute of limitations on rape in NYC. You model the coat that you were raped in, but refuse to let it be examined forensically. In fact, you refuse to do anything that will subject your account to verification beyond a he said/she said. You say that your reason for this is that you don’t want to distract from the migrant workers being raped 24/7. Never mind that going on TV and talking about might be distracting. You don’t appear to be handling this allegation you are making very seriously, beyond the selling books. You go on TV and you say very odd non sequiturs like most people think rape is sexy.

So you are right. There are no red flags here. Nothing at all to detract from credibility.

Wanna buy a bridge?
  #66  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:46 AM
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How dare you talk about your experiences in a way that seems unusual to me? If you don't tell your story in exactly the right way that resonates with me personally, you're a dirty liar!
  #67  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:52 AM
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The two women Carroll says she told about the attack at the time speak out and corroborate her story:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/27/p...interview.html

This probably won't mean anything to people who don't particularly value fighting against sexual assault and rape (or at least don't value it as much as fighting liberals), but I'm hopeful that I'm wrong about some of the posters in this thread and they're just posting without thinking.
Carroll herself speaks about her experiences, in addition to the friends she told afterwards, in the link above. Hopefully anyone actually interested in opposing sexual assault and rape will give that a listen rather than resort to knee-jerk victim-bashing and denigration for political reasons.
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Old 06-27-2019, 10:49 AM
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in a crowded store in a public place
You are directly contradicting her account:
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I have no recollection where lingerie is in that era of Bergdorf’s, but it seems to me it is on a floor with the evening gowns and bathing suits, and when the man and I arrive — and my memory now is vivid — no one is present.
  #69  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:18 AM
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Why would you ask this? It should be very clear to you that even now, telling the authorities about rape and sexual assault is extremely dangerous for women, only occasionally resulting in a positive outcome (i.e. justice), with a very high risk of humiliation, social shaming, and further trauma. Twenty years ago it was much, much worse. And against a powerful, wealthy man?

Are you joking, or were you really ignorant of this?
And yet she's willing to say it now. In a book. To take money.

You mention that it's hard to tell authorities about it. But you know what? In my business we have an adage when people say something is hard. "Hard is fucking authorized."

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  #70  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:23 AM
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Well.....

A guy walks up to you in a clothing store and suggests you model lingerie for him (literally the creepiest pick up line ever, but it’s Trump, so ok.)
Yeah, it’s Trump. And as you note, the creepiness is not out of character for him. It is his character.

But you think him committing rape is just a bridge too far?

I will ask you what I asked Shodan. What would it take for you to believe a woman claiming Trump raped her? Is there any scenario that would not make you say it’s a lie? What would that scenario look like?

Last edited by you with the face; 06-27-2019 at 11:24 AM.
  #71  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:24 AM
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Well.....

A guy walks up to you in a clothing store and suggests you model lingerie for him (literally the creepiest pick up line ever, but it’s Trump, so ok.)

You respond positively to this and pick out a transparent piece of lingerie and go with him into the dressing room of Bergdorf Goodman. He then aggressively tries to have sex with you. You push him away laughing (this is her story, mind you). Then he engages in intercourse. You never say “no” “stop” or scream for help, though it is a small dressing room in a crowded store in a public place. It’s not really clear from your own story that you ever withdrew consent You don’t describe the aftermath. You don’t go to the police. You don’t tell anyone except two close friends. You don’t mention in your columns or public forums though you have a platform and a voice that would let you do so. You don’t come out and mention during the 2016 elections when many other credible allegations against Trump and his bad behavior come out.

In fact, you don’t mention it until you are writing a book and making your tour to sell books. A strong argument made with many of these types of allegations is that the women coming forward have nothing to gain. You, trying to sell a book have a lot to gain.

You refuse to press charges or let the police investigate though there is not a statute of limitations on rape in NYC. You model the coat that you were raped in, but refuse to let it be examined forensically. In fact, you refuse to do anything that will subject your account to verification beyond a he said/she said. You say that your reason for this is that you don’t want to distract from the migrant workers being raped 24/7. Never mind that going on TV and talking about might be distracting. You don’t appear to be handling this allegation you are making very seriously, beyond the selling books. You go on TV and you say very odd non sequiturs like most people think rape is sexy.

So you are right. There are no red flags here. Nothing at all to detract from credibility.

Wanna buy a bridge?
So I have a couple questions:

1. Your review of the facts leading up to the incident omits details in what seems to be an intentional effort to discredit Ms. Carroll. For example you claim that ZTrump "walked up to her in a clothing store and suggested she model lingerie for him" and that she "responded positively to this." But her account details a number of efforts she made to recommend a more innocent gift before Trump even suggested lingerie, recounts repeated efforts to deflect Trump's suggestion that she model it (she kept throwing in back in his face and telling him to model it), and offers an explanation as to why she ultimately consented to shopping for and modeling it (she thought it would be funny- an explanation she acknowledges was foolish in hindsight).

Why did you leave these details out of your account? Don't they suggest that you are, at best, mischaracterizing her willingness to go along with Trump's lingerie-based flirtation?

2. Carroll's account suggests far more resistance to Trump's physical advances than you give her credit for when you say she simply "pushed him away laughing." She recalls stomping his foot and describes a "colossal struggle," one that ultimately leads to her "getting a knee up high enough to push him out and off,' after which she flees.

Why did you leave this information out of your paraphrased account of her resistance? Why not accurately recount her story? You claimed you were offering "her story," but do you really think you did so?

3. You say that she "didn’t tell anyone except two close friends." So she told two people. They corroborated her story. How many people does a rape victim need to tell in order for her story to be believable?

4. Carroll provided extensive explanations for most of the post-incident "red flags" you identify here regarding coming forward publicly. You may not find those explanations adequate, but why are you pretending they don't exist?

Last edited by Les Wizerables; 06-27-2019 at 11:27 AM.
  #72  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:35 AM
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For most people, and especially women, it is really hard to come out and say you've been sexually assaulted.
I (a straight man) was sexually assaulted by a man as a young adult, a bit over twenty years ago as it happens, and the only times I've even mentioned it have been in semi-anonymous online forums like this one. I haven't even talked about it with my long-term girlfriend. I've never told the whole story to anyone. I couldn't, at this point.

I just tried to forget it. Mostly, I have. I don't remember his name, or even what year it happened. But I remember lots of other details: where we met, what he said to get me to his house, what his house looked like, and so on.

So I don't find it hard to understand why women, and all people, don't report this stuff when it happens. I'm not sure I want to post this, frankly, but fuck it, I will, because maybe it will change some other man's thinking about this stuff.
  #73  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:39 AM
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And yet she's willing to say it now. In a book. To take money.
Big fucking deal. This doesn’t make it a lie.

If I become famous enough to publish a memoir, you better believe it will describe personal experiences that few people know about it. Some of those experiences actually might involve minor celebrities*. And? They are still true experiences.



*No sexual impropriety involved, just rudeness.
  #74  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:40 AM
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I (a straight man) was sexually assaulted by a man as a young adult, a bit over twenty years ago as it happens, and the only times I've even mentioned it have been in semi-anonymous online forums like this one. I haven't even talked about it with my long-term girlfriend. I've never told the whole story to anyone. I couldn't, at this point.



I just tried to forget it. Mostly, I have. I don't remember his name, or even what year it happened. But I remember lots of other details: where we met, what he said to get me to his house, what his house looked like, and so on.



So I don't find it hard to understand why women, and all people, don't report this stuff when it happens. I'm not sure I want to post this, frankly, but fuck it, I will, because maybe it will change some other man's thinking about this stuff.
Thanks for sharing. You are not alone.
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Old 06-27-2019, 11:43 AM
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Thanks for sharing. You are not alone.
Thanks, it was really hard to say that
  #76  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:55 AM
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The thing with Jussie Smollett is, when he made his allegations, they were taken seriously. Because they were taken seriously, they were investigated. And because of the investigation, it came out that he was a liar who made the whole thing up, and so he suffered the consequences that he deserved. So, yes, his example illustrates very well that we should take allegations seriously.

If we take Carroll seriously, then we should investigate her claims. Maybe we'll find hard evidence one way or the other, and can take appropriate action based on that. Maybe we'll find soft evidence, that's not good enough for a criminal conviction, but still enough for things like deciding who not to vote for. And maybe we won't find much of anything, in which case we're no worse off than we are now. But in any event, we have to take it seriously.

And yes, spifflog, we really do need to ask why she sat on this for twenty years, because the answer says very important things about us as a society, and what we need to change. With the MeToo movement, we're starting to make those changes. Starting. We still have a heck of a lot of work to do.
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:13 PM
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Slate (yeah, I know, liberal trash) has a long examination of the way Carroll framed her New York essay that's worth reading. It might give some insight into why women have never told their stories until recently.

In addition, the failing New York Times, which has done an amazing amount of first-rate, critically important journalism during its prolonged descent without landing, has confirmed with the friends that Carroll told her story to that she revealed it at the time it happened.
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:16 PM
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You mention that it's hard to tell authorities about it. But you know what? In my business we have an adage when people say something is hard. "Hard is fucking authorized."
Our society is broken if reporting sexual assault and rape is so difficult and risky that relativelyvery few women do it. I'm not content with this; apparently you are.
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Old 06-27-2019, 12:57 PM
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And why has this woman been assaulted by so many men?.
I'm surprised no one has called out this comment yet. Are you aware of how common sexual assault is?

Good grief. I've been sexually assaulted three times (or rather, by three men - one of them more than once) and I think I've led quite a sheltered and lucky life.

Tell me, spifflog, how many times can a woman claim she's been assaulted and still remain credible in your book? If she's been assaulted three times you'll believe her, but four times and you won't?
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Old 06-27-2019, 01:02 PM
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You mention that it's hard to tell authorities about it. But you know what? In my business we have an adage when people say something is hard. "Hard is fucking authorized."
Exactly how does this apply to determining a fact? Walk me through it. Either something happened or it didn’t. What is the relevance of whether reporting that it happened was “authorized,” whatever that’s supposed to mean?
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  #81  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:10 PM
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I'm surprised no one has called out this comment yet. Are you aware of how common sexual assault is?

Good grief. I've been sexually assaulted three times (or rather, by three men - one of them more than once) and I think I've led quite a sheltered and lucky life.

Tell me, spifflog, how many times can a woman claim she's been assaulted and still remain credible in your book? If she's been assaulted three times you'll believe her, but four times and you won't?
Well, if you didn't immediately report it to authorities, I certainly hope you at least had the good sense to document them in your daily journal for posterity. 20 years hence, someone will demand detailed proof and witness accounts, and they'll want to avoid a lengthy search.
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  #82  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:36 PM
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Again we have to through this date crap?

People don't recall the exact date something traumatic happened because the date, itself is not relevant to the experience. When people DO recall the date, it's almost invariably only because they can connect that experience to something else or if they've seen and heard the date repeatedly.

Example: Most people who were alive when JFK was assassinated can recall exactly what they were doing when they heard the news, but very few can recall the date from the experience, itself. If they can tell you the date, it's because A) they've read "November 22, 1963" so many times, the date is affixed in their memories or B) they connect it to some other event: "I remember it was November 22nd, 1963 because it was my tenth birthday."

One more time for those in the back: not recalling the date is indicative of nothing.
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Old 06-27-2019, 01:39 PM
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I (a straight man) was sexually assaulted by a man as a young adult, a bit over twenty years ago as it happens, and the only times I've even mentioned it have been in semi-anonymous online forums like this one. I haven't even talked about it with my long-term girlfriend. I've never told the whole story to anyone. I couldn't, at this point.

I just tried to forget it. Mostly, I have. I don't remember his name, or even what year it happened. But I remember lots of other details: where we met, what he said to get me to his house, what his house looked like, and so on.

So I don't find it hard to understand why women, and all people, don't report this stuff when it happens. I'm not sure I want to post this, frankly, but fuck it, I will, because maybe it will change some other man's thinking about this stuff.
I am so sorry this happened to you. You are not alone.
  #84  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:40 PM
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Just tossing in my $0.02 for posterity:

I believe E. Jean Carroll.

I also wonder why now? #MeToo has been going a long time. There is a long list of women accusing Trump. Why wait till now to spill the beans? Seems very self-serving to me.

But, like Colbert said, if you claim one person pooped in your sink it may be dismissed but when it is 22 people...not so easy to dismiss.

Trump being all rapey is not a hard sell. We have him tape bragging about sexual assault.

My conundrum here isn't believing this woman but trying to separate what seems an intensely self-serving revelation on her part with yet more evidence we have that a rapist is in the White House.

They are two separate things I guess. She is using this for her own benefit and he is a rapist...again.
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Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 06-27-2019 at 01:44 PM.
  #85  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:45 PM
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This.

Plus the conviction rate on rape charges is astonishingly low. Hell, the indictment rate is astonishingly low.
One reason is the unconscionable backlog in the processing of rape kits. This is a California story, but Washington Post also ran a story (link came up in Google, but clicking though gave me a 404). Even when women come forward promptly and get a rape kit done, the kit often then sits gathering dust for years.
  #86  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:51 PM
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And at some point, you have to ask "why didn't this come out 20 years ago?"

Hell I think he's a pig. And I don't like the guy. But what took her 20 frick'n years to come forward? Why now? And why has this woman been assaulted by so many men?

No one is condoning rape or assault. But it's pretty f'ing hard to prove a negative, and it's really hard to prove a negative 20 years later. At some point, you've allowed your opportunity at outrage pass.
People do not come forward at the time for many reasons: they do not feel string enough, they do not have the support they need, they know they won't be believed.

And as far as being assaulted by "so many men" - I hate to use a cliché, but #MeToo. Honestly, some times it does start to feel like maybe I have put out some kind of beacon that calls to sexual predators (actually trauma can cause you to become numb to 'warning signs' that others may notice).

As far as her not remembering the date, I don't remember the date one of my military instructors physically would not let me leave the room, even after I told him I did not want to, and I was on my period. He finally relented, after forcefully putting his fingers inside of me to confirm the presence of blood.

I could not remember the date, or even his name (even though he had been my instructor for weeks).

But I remember exactly what it felt like to have him inside me. And others, ones that grabbed my breasts or stuck their tongues down my throat while others laughed, or raped me.

Coming forward sucks. It really does. People call you a liar, a slut, a whore, or worse. If they do believe you, it changes how they look at you.

But I still talk about it, because other people out there, suffering, because they don't have the support or feel they have the strength, they need to hear it. They need to hear that you can heal, you can live with it. That being sexually assaulted is a terrible thing, but it does not have the define you.

So, yes, I believe her.
  #87  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:54 PM
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Thanks for sharing, Poysyn, and very sorry that you had to go through that.

People handle trauma in different ways, even many years later. It's wrong to try and find an excuse to dismiss and denigrate a woman when she comes forward just because her story might reflect poorly on someone in your preferred political party. Some of the posters in this thread are doing this, and it's absolutely terrible.
  #88  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:06 PM
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I've been sexually assaulted three times (or rather, by three men - one of them more than once) and I think I've led quite a sheltered and lucky life.
I'm sorry, and I think it's great that you tell people about your experiences. People don't like to talk about this stuff, and it's so common.
  #89  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:08 PM
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So, yes, I believe her.
Oh god, that's awful. Thank you for sharing that.
  #90  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:23 PM
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Exactly how does this apply to determining a fact? Walk me through it. Either something happened or it didn’t. What is the relevance of whether reporting that it happened was “authorized,” whatever that’s supposed to mean?
What it means is if one wants their allegations of a crime to be either taken seriously or to be acted on, waiting 20 years to report it isn't the answer. Reporting in a book that you're trying to sell doesn't help either.

I understand all of the arguments about reporting and discussing rape. But this is an educated, intelligent woman with some means who swam in some pretty big ponds in her day. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and concerns. She wasn't a poor, uneducated 16 year old in a factory in 1800.
  #91  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:27 PM
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What it means is if one wants their allegations of a crime to be either taken seriously or to be acted on, waiting 20 years to report it isn't the answer.
This dooms huge numbers of women to be dismissed and denigrated, because they happened to be raped at a time in which to report them could be life-alteringly horrible.

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Reporting in a book that you're trying to sell doesn't help either.
Irrelevant. Unless you have evidence she's lying.

Quote:
I understand all of the arguments about reporting and discussing rape. But this is an educated, intelligent woman with some means who swam in some pretty big ponds in her day. At some point you have to take responsibility for your own life and concerns. She wasn't a poor, uneducated 16 year old in a factory in 1800.
What does this have to do with her credibility? Trump bragged about sexual assault and violating women's consent on multiple occasions, and he's been accused of sexual assault and rape by over 20 women. And every time a woman comes forward, they get death threats and worse, in addition to strangers like you dismissing and denigrating them for speaking out about their experiences.

It's not a shock women don't come forward sooner -- it's a shock that they come forward at all, thanks to reactions like yours.
  #92  
Old 06-27-2019, 02:28 PM
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Coming forward sucks. It really does. People call you a liar, a slut, a whore, or worse. If they do believe you, it changes how they look at you.

But I still talk about it, because other people out there, suffering, because they don't have the support or feel they have the strength, they need to hear it. They need to hear that you can heal, you can live with it. That being sexually assaulted is a terrible thing, but it does not have the define you.

So, yes, I believe her.
I'm just appalled that people don't understand this, even if they haven't experienced this kind of stuff themselves or heard about it from loved ones. I hope that people testifying will make some difference in people's attitudes.
  #93  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:16 PM
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My conundrum here isn't believing this woman but trying to separate what seems an intensely self-serving revelation on her part with yet more evidence we have that a rapist is in the White House.
At no point in time could she have reported this and not been accused of this. As a well-known columnist who has written several books over the decades, the “any publicity, is good publicity” motive could’ve applied just as easily 20 years ago as it does now.

For someone like her who did have a small amount of celebrity to her name, her career could’ve taken a big hit if she’d reported Trump to the police. She, after all, dispensed advice to Elle readership. Knowing good and well her actions would’ve been put under the microscope and torn apart if she’d been outed as the accuser in a rape case against DJT, she had a choice to make. Sacrifice her reputation, her career, and the dreams she been working for by going to the police, or keeping the status quo.
  #94  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:23 PM
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Poysyn and Snoe, I thank you for sharing. You are both incredibly strong for having done so.

As to why Ms. Carroll didn't report sooner. She has given an explanation. Whether you agree or not, at least give her the benefit of her own words on the issue.
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"Receiving death threats, being driven from my home, being dismissed, being dragged through the mud, and joining the 15 women who’ve come forward with credible stories about how the man grabbed, badgered, belittled, mauled, molested, and assaulted them, only to see the man turn it around, deny, threaten, and attack them, never sounded like much fun," she said. "Also, I am a coward."
  #95  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:56 PM
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How sad is it that people that are sexually violated don’t come forward, because they don’t think they will be believed?

To me, that is terribly sad.

I am happy she finally feels strong enough to come forward.
  #96  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:07 PM
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At no point in time could she have reported this and not been accused of this. As a well-known columnist who has written several books over the decades, the “any publicity, is good publicity” motive could’ve applied just as easily 20 years ago as it does now.

For someone like her who did have a small amount of celebrity to her name, her career could’ve taken a big hit if she’d reported Trump to the police. She, after all, dispensed advice to Elle readership. Knowing good and well her actions would’ve been put under the microscope and torn apart if she’d been outed as the accuser in a rape case against DJT, she had a choice to make. Sacrifice her reputation, her career, and the dreams she been working for by going to the police, or keeping the status quo.
That may well be.

I confess to being uncomfortable with anyone being silent about a serious and violent crime, one perpetrated on them, only to pipe up about it decades later. It leaves the accused in a distinctly bad position to defend themself.

I get there are reasons why a woman may not have come forward at the time it happened but it remains deeply problematic.

In this case we have someone coming forward waaaaay after other women have done so publicly. Waaaaaay after it matters for an election. Waaaaaay after society has been accommodating to such revelations.

Yet someone who puts forward these revelations at the same time she is promoting a book she just wrote.

I am not questioning her veracity so much as her timing. I think she can be telling the truth and still be a shithead on the self-serving timing.
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  #97  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:22 PM
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I haven't read the other comments, but is that the same woman that made the controversial comments on CNN within the last couple of days about "most people's" view of cases like hers?
  #98  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:28 PM
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I confess to being uncomfortable with anyone being silent about a serious and violent crime, one perpetrated on them, only to pipe up about it decades later. It leaves the accused in a distinctly bad position to defend themself.
If you think Trump did it (and has zero remorse for doing so), then why care about him being in a bad position? I believe in saving concern for all the people he’s hurt.
  #99  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:33 PM
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Yeah, it’s Trump. And as you note, the creepiness is not out of character for him. It is his character.

But you think him committing rape is just a bridge too far?
Not at all. I am not going to judge the allegation by my opinion of Trump’s character (which is very negative with regards to how he treats women) but by the merits of the accusation.

Quote:
I will ask you what I asked Shodan. What would it take for you to believe a woman claiming Trump raped her? Is there any scenario that would not make you say it’s a lie? What would that scenario look like?
Your question is insulting

1. I didn’t quite call this women a liar. I responded to Rickjay who said that there was nothing that was hard to believe about her story. There are in fact some things that make it hard to believe. But I guess that is close enough to me calling her a liar, so ok. The point is that Trump doesn’t have anything to do with it. I seek to be objective and apply an objective standard. I’d like to think I would apply the same standards to Hitler as to Ghandi.

Your question then is really what constitutes a “good “ accusation. By good, I mean one that is actionable, demands my attention and support, i.e take it seriously. By contrast the less “good” it is, the less I take it seriously. So, I’m an attempt to be objective and fair here in order of importance are the components of accusations:

1. The accuser needs to make their accusation seriously. They have to appeal to the authorities in place to deal with this. If you are accusing somebody of a crime you have to report it to the police, and be willing to prosecute. If it’s not a crime you should be reporting it to the highest authority pertinent. If you are not willing to make an official complaint, I don’t think you are taking your accusation seriously, so neither should I. You have to seek justice through the process and you have to cooperate with the process.

2. The more proof and evidence you have of your accusation the more credible it is and the more seriously I take it. Not just quantity of evidence but quality too. A story is just a story. What elevates what you are saying beyond a story. Do you have physical evidence, witnesses what can you show to document your story?

3. Is the accusation contemporaneous? Contemporaneous is better. Memories change. It’s harder to prove something that happened 20 years ago. I know that sucks and it’s not fair, but it is also true.

4. Are there possible ulterior motives? Is there something to be gained by making the accusation or something to be lost?

5. How “pat” is the story? I distrust accusations that fit a narrative everybody “knows”

6. How credible is the accuser personally?

That’s it. I’m a big believer in innocent until proven guilty. I think somebody being falsely punished for a crime is worse than letting s crime go unpunished.

The unfortunate fact is that false accusations are commonplace. I don’t believe stories. I believe facts.
  #100  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:47 PM
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The unfortunate fact is that false accusations are commonplace. I don’t believe stories. I believe facts.
Scylla, I love you. You are one of my absolute favourite posters. I vehemently disagree with some of what you are saying - mostly because I actually know how hard it is to report to the police.

But - this is actually factually wrong. False accusations are NOT commonplace. Actually, the percentage of false accusations for sexual assault are lower than for other crimes - such as car theft.

Here is one cite:

https://www.thecut.com/article/false...cusations.html

It is also one of, if not the only, crime you have to prove you were a victim of - generally you don’t have to prove you were mugged, instead of just loaning the money.
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