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  #201  
Old 09-03-2019, 08:08 PM
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It's never been about commanding a majority. It's about not being openly voted against by a majority.
"Commanding a majority" is the same thing as "not being openly voted against by a majority". If the majority in the Commons votes against the government, the government does not command a majority. It does not have the confidence of the House.
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  #202  
Old 09-03-2019, 08:11 PM
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Well said, and I have to agree.

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Plus, there is likely a strong element of "Fuck off, Boris!"
A sentiment behind which many of us can enthusiastically get.
  #203  
Old 09-03-2019, 08:12 PM
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It may actually have emboldened them. There is party discipline, sure, but there's always a limit to that when a party is internally divided.
I cannot speak to the specific MPs but threatening to end an MP’s career by kicking them out of the party also has little effect if voting with their party would lead that MP losing in the next election anyway. I would suspect that a lot of MPs would be on the chopping block after a No Deal Brexit.
  #204  
Old 09-03-2019, 08:17 PM
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"Commanding a majority" is the same thing as "not being openly voted against by a majority". If the majority in the Commons votes against the government, the government does not command a majority. It does not have the confidence of the House.
Not quite - it's theoretically possible for a minority government to survive if there's a fractured opposition, if one part of the opposition supports it half of the time, and the other half the rest. That could potentially happen if the Lib Dems ever form a minority government.

As for whether the constitution has been altered by the FTPA, again I'd say not quite. Whilst it takes 67% to trigger an election under it, it would only take a simple majority to repeal the law, and replace it with anything at all. The problem at the moment is not that act, it's that the opposition despite having the votes is refusing to hold a vote of no confidence. This refusal on Corbyn's part is a deriliction of duty, much like most of what's happened in Parliament recently.
  #205  
Old 09-03-2019, 09:43 PM
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Oh, I agree with your first point - it doesn't have to be the same majority all the time. In a multi-party House, the government might be able to count on different small parties to support it on different aspects of its platform. The phrase "command a majority" usually connotes a minority government that can get its programme through the House, but the majority doesn't always have to be identically constituted for all votes. A multi-party House can be quite fluid in the voting patterns.

With respect to the change to the constitution, I'd say it is a change. The fact that it can be altered by a statute can be said of every part of the British Constitution. Under the 2011 Act, the rules have fundamentally changed, even if Parliament could decide to change them again.

The reason I say it is a fundamental change is that before, a vote against the government on a key measure was a confidence matter. The Opposition (and government MPs) knew that if they voted against a measure, that would trigger a defeat of the government or an election. That's no longer the case. Corbin and Tory MPs can vote against the government on key issues, without triggering an election.

Corbin is exercising the powers given to him by the new constitutional arrangement. You can call it "dereliction of duty" if you want, but he is acting consistently with the law, using a discretion he now has. He now can defeat the government's programme without triggering an election.

That is a fundamental change to Parliament, whether you like it or not. American style gridlock is now built into the British Parliament.
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  #206  
Old 09-03-2019, 10:24 PM
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I agree. Point of the FTPA was to put parliament, not the executive, in control of the decision to hold an early election. Opposition MPs (and backbench government MPs) have a position in parliament in a way that (obviously) they do not in the executive, so a consequence of this shift of control is to give opposition and backbench MPs a greater degree of influence over the calling of an early election than they previously had. It is not unconstitutional, or a dereliction of duty, for them to exercise that influence.
  #207  
Old 09-04-2019, 12:16 AM
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CNN just likened the current situation in Parliament to Monty Python.
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  #208  
Old 09-04-2019, 01:12 AM
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CNN just likened the current situation in Parliament to Monty Python.
Monty Python was well scripted.
  #209  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:25 AM
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A good common-sense article, in the Spectator (of all places) about the effects of no-deal:

Ivan Rogers: the realities of a no-deal Brexit

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The primary issue with a ‘no deal’ Brexit is not, and never has been, how far our domestic contingency planning enables us to mitigate the short-term shock. That is hugely important. If ‘no deal’ happens, the day to day consequences – malign or benign – will inevitably drown out all else in the news for months. No developed country will have done anything analogous in several generations, let alone by choice.

But this ought, nevertheless, to be secondary. The primary issue is our medium-long term destination. The central problem with ‘no deal’ is that it is being heavily (mis)sold as providing certainty, finality – a ‘clean break’ – when it would manifestly do nothing of the sort.

It encourages a public (many of whom are understandably fed up with the process and the game playing – on all sides – of the political class) to believe that ‘closure’ might be just weeks away. But this is completely spurious. The reality of ‘no deal’ is that it would leave all the most intractable issues about our future relationship with the EU unresolved, and leave it unclear whether there would even be a subsequent process to resolve them. It would, in other words, be just the start, not the end.

The idea, peddled by ministers, that businesses would have the ‘clarity’ and ‘certainty’ they need about the UK’s ultimate destination after a ‘no deal’ exit in eight weeks time, is laughable.
The whole article is worth reading.
  #210  
Old 09-04-2019, 06:47 AM
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The Daily Beast has a beautifully written summary of what just happened:
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Theresa May’s abject humiliation over Brexit was three years in the making as she endured failed negotiations, misfiring political gambles, and a series of internal revolts. Boris Johnson got there in just one vote.
  #211  
Old 09-04-2019, 07:09 AM
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He now can defeat the government's programme without triggering an election.
Honestly? I'll believe that when I see it. If Johnson's still PM on October 31st, we will leave without a deal, and he will blame Corbyn and others for obstructing his chances of getting a deal - and plenty of people will believe him.

Even if Johnson follows the bill to the letter, and asks for an extension, that doesn't mean it will be granted, and really the only reason the EU would have to grant it is if there's a significant change - such as a new party in power that will call another referendum.
  #212  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:31 AM
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I said he can do it, under the new arrangements. No idea if he will do it, or just keep dithering.
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  #213  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:42 AM
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CNN just likened the current situation in Parliament to Monty Python.
Professional comedy is the very careful, methodical process of appearing to be stupid and chaotic.

Brexit is the stupid, chaotic process of appearing to be careful. And they're failing.
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  #214  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:42 AM
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Ruth Davidson, leader of the Scottish Conservatives for the past eight years until standing down this week:
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Originally Posted by Ruth Davidson

How, in the name of all that is good and holy, is there no longer room in the Conservative Party for @NSoames? #anofficerandagentleman
The Conservative Party is no longer the conservative party, and is now the Brexit Party, although that name has already been taken.
  #215  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:49 AM
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I said he can do it, under the new arrangements. No idea if he will do it, or just keep dithering.
And I'm saying that he can't prevent a no deal Brexit unless he's PM himself, as only the PM can do so. Parliament can pass all the laws it wants, but it can't bind the EU, and the current bill does nothing more in practice than tell Johnson to ask the EU nicely, and sets out no consequences if he does not.

Yes, Parliament is supreme - but it has to exercise that supremacy. And currently it, and specifically the Labour party, doesn't appear to have the balls to do so. Had Parliament wanted to, Johnson could have been removed by now, Article 50 rescinded and preparations for a new referendum could have been started.
  #216  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:21 AM
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Because this is where we are now as a nation, this story is making the rounds of the media:

Quote:
Iain Duncan Smith caught 'picking his nose and eating it' during Brexit debate
So....yeah.
  #217  
Old 09-04-2019, 11:41 AM
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Because this is where we are now as a nation, this story is making the rounds of the media:



So....yeah.
Along similar lines, here is the Conservative Leader of the House of Commons yesterday during parliamentary debate.

Latest news: MPs vote by 329 to 300 to back a bill aimed at blocking a no-deal Brexit.
  #218  
Old 09-04-2019, 01:03 PM
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It looks like Dominic Cummings is rapidly going off the rails.

Yesterday Johnson made a last-ditch attempt to persuade rebel Tory MPs before the vote. According to Paul Waugh from Huffpost UK, as the rebel MPs were waiting outside Johnson's office, Cummings arrived and started shouting at them and denouncing them for 'an extended period of time'. Not quite the best way to persuade people to support you.

Later, shortly before the the vote, Peter Walker from the Guardian tweeted, "I just bumped into Dominic Cummings, who was clutching a glass of red wine and wandering along the parliamentary press corridor, lost and looking for a particular newspaper office. This is not a usual occurrence."

After the vote, Cummings started shouting at Jeremy Corbyn to support an election as he was getting into his car. Corbyn ignored him. Labour MP Cat Smith tweeted, "As one of several shadow cabinet members stood right next to Jeremy (who was on the phone at the time) I just thought there was some loud bloke who stunk of booze yelling at us."

I have a feeling Cummings is not going to last much longer.
  #219  
Old 09-04-2019, 01:35 PM
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Johnson now wants an election.

The British government is an absolute train wreck. Tire fire. Clown car. It's all three, really, a train carrying a troupe of clowns crashing into a pile of burning tires.
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  #220  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:45 PM
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What is happening with Benn's bill in the lords? Are they killing it via filibuster? I'm not sure I understand who, if anyone, won today.
  #221  
Old 09-04-2019, 03:52 PM
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What is happening with Benn's bill in the lords? Are they killing it via filibuster? I'm not sure I understand who, if anyone, won today.
Live Lords coverage here https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Inde...c-ee785b88212c
  #222  
Old 09-04-2019, 04:29 PM
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Are they killing it via filibuster?
There are a large number of amendments proposed (about 90-ish, I think), most of which will need to be dealt with, so it is an attempt at a filibuster.

However, the House of Lords dances to its own drum, and a Bill can't strictly be talked out. There's a method where their Lordships can decide that one of their fellows has spoken too long, and a vote can be held to shut them up.

So for each attempted filibuster amendment there needs to be a "sit down, you dolt" vote, and then a vote on the amendment itself. It's not the most youthful and athletic legislature, so these all take some time. Remember, the Lords need to physically walk into a one of two lobbies to vote, just like the Commons.

It's essentially an endurance test - there's certainly a strong majority in the Lords for this Bill to pass, and they'll keep going at it all night and longer if they have to.

Also, and this is weird, if they are still in session by 10:30am BST on Thursday 5th September, the Lords consider the whole of that day a continuation of Wednesday 4th.

Last edited by Baron Greenback; 09-04-2019 at 04:30 PM.
  #223  
Old 09-04-2019, 07:37 PM
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3 defeats in 2 days for BoJo the Clown, eh.

And now he's lying to his peers and to the country about any actual negotiating going on with the EU; lovely. Brits must all be so very proud to have this man representing them and their interests!

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 09-04-2019 at 07:37 PM.
  #224  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:00 PM
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The Lords have decided - after about 20 endlessly-dragged-out amendments being heavily defeated - that they'll just let it go. There's obviously been some hot Whip action behind the scenes.

It also seems like they've committed to passing the actual (Benn) Bill that the Commons has sent them by close of play on Friday.
  #225  
Old 09-04-2019, 08:54 PM
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Professional comedy is the very careful, methodical process of appearing to be stupid and chaotic.

Brexit is the stupid, chaotic process of appearing to be careful. And they're failing.
:: Golf clap ::
  #226  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:02 AM
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3 defeats in 2 days for BoJo the Clown, eh.

And now he's lying to his peers and to the country about any actual negotiating going on with the EU; lovely. Brits must all be so very proud to have this man representing them and their interests!
Judging by local Facebook groups and the like, a depressing number of people seem to have the 'yeah, Boris, don't let the stinking EU and those weak MPs boss you around!' attitude. There are many who basically seem to think that 'no deal' a) is somehow 'sticking it to the EU' and b) will be the end of it, then they can just get back on with normal life.
  #227  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:49 AM
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Judging by local Facebook groups and the like, a depressing number of people seem to have the 'yeah, Boris, don't let the stinking EU and those weak MPs boss you around!' attitude. There are many who basically seem to think that 'no deal' a) is somehow 'sticking it to the EU' and b) will be the end of it, then they can just get back on with normal life.
True, but there are an equally depressing number of people who think that simply notdoing it will be the end of it as well. From the start of this process there has been an unwillingness to honestly acknowledge the implications of a vote either way or of not having a vote in the first place.

Notice that the Liberal Democrats spend all of their time saying that they want to cancel the whole thing and precisely 0% on what the likely implications would be of doing so.
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  #228  
Old 09-05-2019, 04:58 AM
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True, but there are an equally depressing number of people who think that simply notdoing it will be the end of it as well. From the start of this process there has been an unwillingness to honestly acknowledge the implications of a vote either way or of not having a vote in the first place.

Notice that the Liberal Democrats spend all of their time saying that they want to cancel the whole thing and precisely 0% on what the likely implications would be of doing so.
Politically, UK governments would be in a difficult position in terms of influencing any future developments within the EU (though our number of votes in the Council can have a pretty powerfulf effect), and the Brexit party people in the parliament would continue to be an annoying sideshow until Farage gets sick of them.

But there's no indication that revoking the Article 50 withdrawal would bring any particular legal penalty with it, or that the legal frameworks for any of the things currently within the scope of EU law would be any different from what they are now.
  #229  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:25 AM
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But there's no indication that revoking the Article 50 withdrawal would bring any particular legal penalty with it, or that the legal frameworks for any of the things currently within the scope of EU law would be any different from what they are now.
The E.U. would not be so clumsy as to overtly threaten anything but a complete revocation would not be taken by the E.U. as a return to the status quo. The thought that everything returns to how it was is fanciful. When the dust settled, moves would be made.
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  #230  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:30 AM
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Boris Johson's brother Jo has quit Parliament, saying:
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It’s been an honour to represent Orpington for 9 years & to serve as a minister under three PMs. In recent weeks I’ve been torn between family loyalty and the national interest - it’s an unresolvable tension & time for others to take on my roles as MP & Minister.
Ouch.

Last edited by galen ubal; 09-05-2019 at 05:32 AM.
  #231  
Old 09-05-2019, 05:59 AM
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That kinda says it all, doesn't it? "I want to support my family, but you're acting too much like an asshat, bro, sorry."
  #232  
Old 09-05-2019, 06:01 AM
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That kinda says it all, doesn't it? "I want to support my family, but you're acting too much like an asshat, bro, sorry."
Heh. Just saw this come over my Twitter feed:
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BREAKING: Jo Johnson resigns to spend less time with his family.
  #233  
Old 09-05-2019, 06:03 AM
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The thought that everything returns to how it was is fanciful. When the dust settled, moves would be made.
But legally, nothing substantial could change without our concurrence - either those "moves" would require a treaty (i.e., unanimity) or the kind of majority in the Council that can be blocked with our allotment of votes. Plus, politically (though this is a card to be played carefully), the point can be made to enough other member states that they might, in their turn, have reason to resist an increase in punitive attitudes in the central institutions of the EU.
  #234  
Old 09-05-2019, 06:15 AM
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And this on mine, a suggested tabloid headline

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BoJo bro Jo: No
  #235  
Old 09-05-2019, 06:31 AM
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But legally, nothing substantial could change without our concurrence - either those "moves" would require a treaty (i.e., unanimity) or the kind of majority in the Council that can be blocked with our allotment of votes. Plus, politically (though this is a card to be played carefully), the point can be made to enough other member states that they might, in their turn, have reason to resist an increase in punitive attitudes in the central institutions of the EU.
But do you really think that a complete revocation of the article 50, with no intention invoke in the future, would see the E.U. and the UK's position in it carry on exactly as before?
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  #236  
Old 09-05-2019, 07:39 AM
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But do you really think that a complete revocation of the article 50, with no intention invoke in the future, would see the E.U. and the UK's position in it carry on exactly as before?
One would hope not as it would mean that we (and they) have learned nothing from the last three years.

If there is ever another referendum, I would hope the Remain side would highlight the benefits of remaining in the EU but I hope they'd also point out some of the many defects of the EU and explain how they plan to remedy them.

I would also hope that the leadership of the EU would recognize that some of those defects helped cause these three years of chaos and would want to remedy them.

For instance, the EU could create some limitations on Freedom of Movement while still allowing genuine migration. IMO, without Merkel's promise to admit 1 million refugees just before the referendum, Vote Leave would not have won. I think the EU should reflect on that and amend the policies that made Merkel's promise so daunting (and not just for British voters).

It's been well-documented that the British government had levers to restrict the massive immigration from Eastern Europe over the last 20 years but they did not use them. Why not? What could we (and they) do differently?

The press in the UK shines a spotlight on the Ever Closer Union rhetoric coming from Brussels but these policies are unpopular in many EU member states. Britain could become a champion for national sovereignty within the EU.

I hope we don't carry on exactly as before.
  #237  
Old 09-05-2019, 09:16 AM
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One would hope not as it would mean that we (and they) have learned nothing from the last three years.

If there is ever another referendum, I would hope the Remain side would highlight the benefits of remaining in the EU but I hope they'd also point out some of the many defects of the EU and explain how they plan to remedy them.

I would also hope that the leadership of the EU would recognize that some of those defects helped cause these three years of chaos and would want to remedy them.

For instance, the EU could create some limitations on Freedom of Movement while still allowing genuine migration. IMO, without Merkel's promise to admit 1 million refugees just before the referendum, Vote Leave would not have won. I think the EU should reflect on that and amend the policies that made Merkel's promise so daunting (and not just for British voters).

It's been well-documented that the British government had levers to restrict the massive immigration from Eastern Europe over the last 20 years but they did not use them. Why not? What could we (and they) do differently?

The press in the UK shines a spotlight on the Ever Closer Union rhetoric coming from Brussels but these policies are unpopular in many EU member states. Britain could become a champion for national sovereignty within the EU.

I hope we don't carry on exactly as before.
I agree with all of the above but it is a conversation that the remain side singulalry fail to engage with. Also, given that for the E.U. the solution is always "closer political union" regardless of the problem, it is right to raise the possibility that a UK revocation will be taken as implicit endorsement of that destination and show a lack of will to think otherwise.
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  #238  
Old 09-05-2019, 09:20 AM
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Also, I think that if all we do is learn from just the last three years then that will be a monumental failure as well. The seeds of this have been long in the ground
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  #239  
Old 09-05-2019, 09:21 AM
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One would hope not as it would mean that we (and they) have learned nothing from the last three years.

If there is ever another referendum, I would hope the Remain side would highlight the benefits of remaining in the EU but I hope they'd also point out some of the many defects of the EU and explain how they plan to remedy them.

I would also hope that the leadership of the EU would recognize that some of those defects helped cause these three years of chaos and would want to remedy them.

For instance, the EU could create some limitations on Freedom of Movement while still allowing genuine migration. IMO, without Merkel's promise to admit 1 million refugees just before the referendum, Vote Leave would not have won. I think the EU should reflect on that and amend the policies that made Merkel's promise so daunting (and not just for British voters).

It's been well-documented that the British government had levers to restrict the massive immigration from Eastern Europe over the last 20 years but they did not use them. Why not? What could we (and they) do differently?

The press in the UK shines a spotlight on the Ever Closer Union rhetoric coming from Brussels but these policies are unpopular in many EU member states. Britain could become a champion for national sovereignty within the EU.

I hope we don't carry on exactly as before.
Without meaning to sound like a jerk here, have you been paying attention to the Brexit negotiations at all? Because the main lesson from them is "The UK does not have nearly the bargaining power that it seems to think it does". The idea, especially after failed Brexit negotiations and the bad faith and ill will involved (not to mention the projections of just how insanely damaging it would have been to the UK!), that the UK will be in any position to be giving marching orders to the union just strikes me as batty.
  #240  
Old 09-05-2019, 11:19 AM
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Without meaning to sound like a jerk here, have you been paying attention to the Brexit negotiations at all? Because the main lesson from them is "The UK does not have nearly the bargaining power that it seems to think it does". The idea, especially after failed Brexit negotiations and the bad faith and ill will involved (not to mention the projections of just how insanely damaging it would have been to the UK!), that the UK will be in any position to be giving marching orders to the union just strikes me as batty.
I mean the UK had significant power within the formal institutions of the EU; I think you're perhaps misreading his post. He was saying Britain should have worked more forcefully within the EU to work to correct its defects, and that it had more tools at its disposal to push for change in Brussels.

In the negotiations about the UK's relationship with the EU after it exits the union, the UK does not have "formal powers", it has a bargaining position. When talking about its membership in the EU historically and things done or not done, the UK had a lot of formal powers within the structure of the EU, which do weight a number of decision making processes more heavily to the larger countries (with Britain being one of the larger EU countries.)
  #241  
Old 09-05-2019, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Baron Greenback View Post
And this on mine, a suggested tabloid headline:

BoJo bro Jo: No
All it needs is the word "go" on the end, and it's perfect.
  #242  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Without meaning to sound like a jerk here, have you been paying attention to the Brexit negotiations at all? Because the main lesson from them is "The UK does not have nearly the bargaining power that it seems to think it does". The idea, especially after failed Brexit negotiations and the bad faith and ill will involved (not to mention the projections of just how insanely damaging it would have been to the UK!), that the UK will be in any position to be giving marching orders to the union just strikes me as batty.
It's not just that the UK doesn't have the leverage it thought it did; it's that the EU has every incentive to actually be more intransigent in negotiations than a pure calculus of the EU-UK trading relationship would dictate. Any sense of weakness in this will make the EU look weak and will encourage other member states to threaten to take their toys and go home if they don't get whatever their desired changes are. The EU benefits from the UK getting screwed.

All this was incredibly predictable. This isn't Deep Blue chess, it's tic-tac-toe.
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  #243  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir View Post
All it needs is the word "go" on the end, and it's perfect.
Headline: BLOW FOR BOJO AS BRO JO GO GOES

There appears to be a superfluous "go", which risks the whole headline being misinterpreted.
  #244  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:40 PM
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Johnson has said "I'd rather be dead in a ditch than ask the EU for an extension". That may well be a stupid position, but it is at least a position, and one that will appeal to a substantial amount of the electorate. Corbyn is presumably still trying to find out what "having a position" actually is.

You know when people though no-one could lose to Trump? Corbyn is doing a good impression of Hilary here.
  #245  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:50 PM
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Johnson has said "I'd rather be dead in a ditch than ask the EU for an extension". That may well be a stupid position, but it is at least a position, and one that will appeal to a substantial amount of the electorate.
That's a little ambiguous, as both "no extension" and "Boris Johnson dead in a ditch" appeal to substantial parts of the electorate.

Last edited by Miller; 09-05-2019 at 12:53 PM.
  #246  
Old 09-05-2019, 12:53 PM
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That's a little ambiguous, as both "no extension" and "Boris Johnson dead in a ditch" both appeal to substantial parts of the electorate.
That is very true.
  #247  
Old 09-05-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Headline: BLOW FOR BOJO AS BRO JO GO GOES

There appears to be a superfluous "go", which risks the whole headline being misinterpreted.
I think it flows that way, the syllabic structure lines up. (if you consider them to be connected by the "as".)
Blow for bojo
bro jo go goes
  #248  
Old 09-05-2019, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Without meaning to sound like a jerk here, have you been paying attention to the Brexit negotiations at all? Because the main lesson from them is "The UK does not have nearly the bargaining power that it seems to think it does". The idea, especially after failed Brexit negotiations and the bad faith and ill will involved (not to mention the projections of just how insanely damaging it would have been to the UK!), that the UK will be in any position to be giving marching orders to the union just strikes me as batty.
The question I was responding to was "But do you really think that a complete revocation of the article 50 [snip] would see the E.U. and the UK's position in it carry on exactly as before?"

Presumably, if Article 50 is revoked, it means that the people responsible for the bad faith and the ill will are no longer in power and a more Europhillic government is in place.

I think there are folks in some countries in Europe who have some sympathy for British (Europhile) opinions on the future of Europe. We are not talking Farage & Cummings here. We're not even talking conservative-pm-held-hostage-to-euroskeptics. There are Europhiles who fervently believe the the EU is a force for good but recognize that unrestricted migration and immigration and over-regulation and all the rest are damaging to the public's support for the European project.

And not just in Britain.

Other countries like the Netherlands and Denmark have always been more sympathetic to the British point of view and France, Germany and Italy all have movements that are pushing back on Ever Closer Union. They might welcome a little bit of populist reform that they can blame on the British. No marching orders required.
  #249  
Old 09-05-2019, 02:30 PM
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Robert Peston, ITV News:
Quote:
[Boris] could break the new law, refuse to sign the letter requesting a Brexit delay and dare Parliament to impeach him, under ancient and rarely used rules.

It seems extraordinary that senior Tory MPs tell me that a serving prime minister should break the law, rather than break a promise that under no circumstances would he fail to take the UK out of the EU by October 31.

The choice is between keeping his word or disobeying the law of the land.

"He can't sign the letter" said a Tory grandee and former Cabinet minister.

"He has to precipitate a very real constitutional crisis".
  #250  
Old 09-05-2019, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
An ally of the PM blamed “parliament’s disastrous conduct for years” which means “the system is necessarily adapting to basics”.

He added: “MPs want to stop Brexit and the public wants this resolved. So stuff will break”.

And how.
Wow! Sounds almost like what's happening in the US right now: rich people are trying to break the system so they can then try and take complete control and re-form it how they want, without all these pesky regulations and laws and rules and traditions and things.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 09-05-2019 at 02:37 PM.
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