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  #51  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:20 PM
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I think it can be both effective and appropriate in cases where the issue is about kids. I brought up Malala Yousafzai in the other thread.

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And when said kids have a clear interest in the issue, don't want to forget that part.

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  #52  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:23 PM
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I remember back in the day when a woman was praised for having her kids in a protest against nuclear weapons where she had to kids dance on top of a nuclear silo. Also people have used their kids to protest against abortions.

Both sides do it and I have problems pushing kids into an issue they know little about.
  #53  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:27 PM
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I remember back in the day when a woman was praised for having her kids in a protest against nuclear weapons where she had to kids dance on top of a nuclear silo. Also people have used their kids to protest against abortions.

Both sides do it and I have problems pushing kids into an issue they know little about.
1. Somebody here praised that woman?
2. I too hate exploitation of children, no matter what the issue is.
  #54  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:31 PM
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What about that Anne Frank twerp? She wrote a book, but based on what, she was a teenager! Why should anyone read what she wrote. She couldn't have been aware of what was really going on. I'll bet her parents wrote it for her.

/s

In case anyone didn't detect the sarcasm dripping from each word
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:33 PM
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What about that Anne Frank twerp? She wrote a book, but based on what, she was a teenager! Why should anyone read what she wrote. She couldn't have been aware of what was really going on. I'll bet her parents wrote it for her.

/s

In case anyone didn't detect the sarcasm dripping from each word
If only actual examples had been brought up in this thread to debate about.
  #56  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:37 PM
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If only actual examples had been brought up in this thread to debate about.
And if only examples were allowed to show how kids can be capable of understanding things and speaking for themselves, but oh yeah specific examples were outlawed in the OP

Yes kids being manipulated by adults to advocate for things they do not understand is not a good thing, but that does not encompass the entire set of "kids who speak out about politics". I don't think we should be limited to only talking about the former category while being forbidden from talking about the latter. That is not a debate, it's akin to an airing of grievances.
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  #57  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:43 PM
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One other advantage of using kids is that it makes it harder for the opposition to offer up criticism. If they are too critical, they get blamed for being too mean to the kid.
This is part of the PR of it. The plan is to communicate one's idea across, but in a way that neutralizes the opposition's ability to speak back.
  #58  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:46 PM
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And if only examples were allowed to show how kids can be capable of understanding things and speaking for themselves
I didn't say kids can't speak for themselves. I said that their speaking is often negatively interpreted by many - especially the opponents of their cause - as a cynical ploy to use the appeal of youth to win the day.

Suppose that you're pro-same-sex marriage, and a kid is holding a microphone at a public gathering, speaking against gay marriage. Regardless of whether he/she was indoctrinated, or came to those views independently, would the fact that he or she is a kid actually win you over to the anti-gay side? Probably not.
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:47 PM
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This is part of the PR of it. The plan is to communicate one's idea across, but in a way that neutralizes the opposition's ability to speak back.
What plan? Who is doing this planning? Where do they meet? Who is the PR person?

Human beings have a right to speak. Teenagers are human beings. Why should they not be allowed to speak? If people want to listen, then so be it. Why is the idea of teenagers speaking so threatening to some people? 18 year olds can vote. What magic happens between the ages of 16 and 18 that all of a sudden allows you to have your own opinions and makes you worthy of speaking your mind?
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:52 PM
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I didn't say kids can't speak for themselves. I said that their speaking is often negatively interpreted by many - especially the opponents of their cause - as a cynical ploy to use the appeal of youth to win the day.

Suppose that you're pro-same-sex marriage, and a kid is holding a microphone at a public gathering, speaking against gay marriage. Regardless of whether he/she was indoctrinated, or came to those views independently, would the fact that he or she is a kid actually win you over to the anti-gay side? Probably not.
Anybody saying anything related to public policy is going to be negatively interpreted by many. Such is the world we live in. So what do, nobody speaks anymore lest they be misinterpreted by many? Does that apply to anyone older than 18?

As to your question, no, regardless of the voice I will not be convinced to be anti-gay. That goes for 16 year olds, 25 year olds, 50 year olds or 90 year olds. It's not because they are a kid it's because what they would be advocating for is wrong in my opinion.
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  #61  
Old 09-25-2019, 02:53 PM
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1. "Here, honey-stand right here and hold this sign...and don't forget to yell "God hates fags!" to everyone that passes by."
2. "Mom, I'm going down to the anti-abortion rally because I want people to know how feel on the subject."

Can you see the distinction?
How do you tell which is which if you are not party to private conversations between the child and their parents?
  #62  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:22 PM
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How do you tell which is which if you are not party to private conversations between the child and their parents?
Remember the link in post #12? I may not have been personally listening in on the family conversations between the Westboro Bigots Church parents and their children, so I have no absolute proof that those kids didn't pool their allowance and have those t-shirts and signs professionally made all on their own, then show up at the protests where their parents coincidentally happened to be(in the same vehicles their parents just happened to arrive in) and coincidentally start shouting the same-hate-filled rhetoric as their parents...so far be it from me to stifle the creative spirit of a child.
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Old 09-25-2019, 03:36 PM
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Remember the link in post #12? I may not have been personally listening in on the family conversations between the Westboro Bigots Church parents and their children, so I have no absolute proof that those kids didn't pool their allowance and have those t-shirts and signs professionally made all on their own, then show up at the protests where their parents coincidentally happened to be(in the same vehicles their parents just happened to arrive in) and coincidentally start shouting the same-hate-filled rhetoric as their parents...so far be it from me to stifle the creative spirit of a child.
What about situations that aren't such obvious outliers? Is Gavin Grimm best described by your first scenario, or your second? David Hogg? Malala Yousafzai? Which of the teenagers on this list are being exploited, and which are expressing their own opinions?
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Old 09-25-2019, 03:43 PM
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What about situations that aren't such obvious outliers? Is Gavin Grimm best described by your first scenario, or your second? David Hogg? Malala Yousafzai? Which of the teenagers on this list are being exploited, and which are expressing their own opinions?
Do you want me to give my best judgement(subject to correction when further evidence is brought forth) on each one individually, or are you expecting a blanket statement about all of them?
edited to add: And do you have anything to say about the examples already given in this thread?

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  #65  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:44 PM
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*Reads thread*

*Looks at Hector Pieterson print on the wall*

*Recalls his own schooldays"

*Shakes his head"
  #66  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:51 PM
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Do you want me to give my best judgement(subject to correction when further evidence is brought forth) on each one individually, or are you expecting a blanket statement about all of them?
Either, or both, as you feel most comfortable. Your reasoning for putting them in one bucket or the other would also be appreciated.

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edited to add: And do you have anything to say about the examples already given in this thread?
I don't have any problem with teaching children your political or ethical values.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:10 PM
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Either, or both, as you feel most comfortable. Your reasoning for putting them in one bucket or the other would also be appreciated.

I don't have any problem with teaching children your political or ethical values.
So you want me to give judgement on cases I know about, somewhat know about, and know next to nothing about...but you have nothing but a blanket statement about the different examples given in this thread prior to specific list you presented to me?
Look-I gave my opinion that there is a difference between children fighting for a cause they believe in, and children being exploited by adults, and I thought the examples I gave supported that opinion. Apparently not, according to you. You seem to want nothing less than a firsthand account of parents instructing children what to do and say and, human that I am, I just can't give that to you. I can only form judgements on what is reported and what I see with my own eyes.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:45 PM
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If only actual examples had been brought up in this thread to debate about.
Boy you sure hate it when someone doesnt follow your rules when you are the OP, but I guess when it's someone else's OP, you are Ok with it.

Look, we all know what would happen if the Op allowed GT- that would be the only thing and we'd get into trump, UN, EU, global warming and a whole host of other crap and the Ops main point would be lost.
  #69  
Old 09-25-2019, 07:04 PM
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So you want me to give judgement on cases I know about, somewhat know about, and know next to nothing about...but you have nothing but a blanket statement about the different examples given in this thread prior to specific list you presented to me?
You said it's okay for kids to speak their own mind, but not okay for parents to coach kids on what to say. I'm trying to figure out how you know which is which. You could do this with a blanket statement describing how you know the difference, or you could go through the list and describe how you decide to evaluate each individual. The fact that you don't know much about these specific kids is, obviously, the point I'm trying to make: you've staked out a moral stance, but you don't seem to have any way to determine if someone is acting in accordance with the stance you've staked out, or in opposition to it. So far, it seems like you're taking kind of an opportunistic stance: if the message is sufficiently extreme (such as the WBC) you can blast them for politicizing their children, but when the message is something closer to what you agree with (climate change, gun control, queer rights) you can say, "Well, I don't know the situation well enough to make that judgement."

As for myself, I can make a blanket statement instead of running down a list of individual cases, because my take on the subject is sufficiently universal: there's nothing wrong with a parent teaching their children their politics. I don't need to go case by case, because my answer isn't going to change based on special pleading related to the specific child. My issue with WBC isn't that they're raising their kids with their politics, my issue is that their politics are horrible, and that applies whether they're trying to convince their children to follow their politics, or whether they're trying to convince adults.

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Look-I gave my opinion that there is a difference between children fighting for a cause they believe in, and children being exploited by adults, and I thought the examples I gave supported that opinion. Apparently not, according to you. You seem to want nothing less than a firsthand account of parents instructing children what to do and say and, human that I am, I just can't give that to you. I can only form judgements on what is reported and what I see with my own eyes.
Yes, again, that's sort of the whole point I'm trying to get at. You, being human, aren't really equipped to make the sort of judgments you're making. You don't have the insight into people's family lives to know if a kid is being exploited, or if a kid is expressing their own will. Further, I don't think you've really made a case for those being different things. Take your hypotheticals; is the teen going to the pro-choice rally doing so of their own free will, or are they doing so because they were raised by pro-choice parents who taught the kid the importance of pro-choice policies and the necessity of public protest to protect those rights? Your placing a lot of emphasis on direct facilitation - if, in that example, the parent replies, "Great! I'll give you a lift to the protest!" does that now tip the situation into the other category? If not, how much direct influence does the parent have to express before it becomes inappropriate?
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:16 PM
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Us, being humans, make judgements without having absolute knowledge all the time.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:56 PM
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Us, being humans, make judgements without having absolute knowledge all the time.
You're quite a bit short of "absolute" here.
  #72  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:00 PM
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You're quite a bit short of "absolute" here.
I can live with that.
  #73  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:04 PM
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look, I don't know what people are arguing about here. I interpret OP to mean he/she dislikes when parents drag their kids along to a protest, put signs in their kids hands, and tell them "say what I tell you to say." The kids don't understand what a protest is, much less what mom and dad are telling them to protest. The kids are being used as pawns.

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  #74  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:38 PM
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1. "Here, honey-stand right here and hold this sign...and don't forget to yell "God hates fags!" to everyone that passes by."
2. "Mom, I'm going down to the anti-abortion rally because I want people to know how feel on the subject."

Can you see the distinction?
You're skipping over a lot of middle ground. There's also:

2. Mom and Dad are going downtown today to march for women's rights. We don't like the new president and we think he doesn't respect women, so we are going to join a huge crowd to show him that the country DOES support women and that he better not forget it, or make any laws that aren't fair to women. Do you want to come with us, or stay with grandma?

3. This family supports women's rights, and we are going to join the march downtown today. Your mom and i would really like you to come with us, to show the world what this family thinks. Will you come with us?
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:43 PM
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I can live with that.
I'm sure you can, but it does serve as a useful barometer for how seriously people should take your opinion on this subject.
  #76  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:38 PM
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You're skipping over a lot of middle ground. There's also:

2. Mom and Dad are going downtown today to march for women's rights. We don't like the new president and we think he doesn't respect women, so we are going to join a huge crowd to show him that the country DOES support women and that he better not forget it, or make any laws that aren't fair to women. Do you want to come with us, or stay with grandma?

3. This family supports women's rights, and we are going to join the march downtown today. Your mom and i would really like you to come with us, to show the world what this family thinks. Will you come with us?
There is always middle ground. Is my opinion useless unless I make a public statement about every single variation possible? Must I withhold judgement on any unless I make judgement on all?
  #77  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:43 PM
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As it stands, you're accusing thousands of people of exploiting their kids. That's a really serious thing. I just don't think a famil in a "March for Science" photo should be accused of such, even if they let Sissy hold the sign while she rides on Daddy's shoulders.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:52 PM
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As it stands, you're accusing thousands of people of exploiting their kids. That's a really serious thing. I just don't think a famil in a "March for Science" photo should be accused of such, even if they let Sissy hold the sign while she rides on Daddy's shoulders.
Bullshit. You are superimposing what I said about a couple of groups over all groups across the spectrum. Go to the link I provided in post #12, then tell me there is no difference between what is happening in those photos and letting little Sissy hold a sign as she rides on Daddy's shoulders.
Once again, I have not even suggested that all examples are exploitations of children. Is anyone here suggesting that there are no examples that might qualify as exploitation?
  #79  
Old 09-26-2019, 01:13 AM
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Who is "using" her? Isn't she doing what she is doing of her own accord?

Isn't saying she is being used by someone taking away her agency? What makes you think her words and her actions are not her own choices?

How is the NRA doing since the Parkland kids decided to speak up after their friends were murdered? Were they being "used" too?
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Right, you don't want to talk about a specific kid, but that means you can say whatever you want about kids in general without having to defend statements about any particular kid. Inoculating yourself from having anyone take issue with your statements because you can just keep saying "well I'm not talking about that kid, that one is ok, it's just all the other ones that are being used and have no agency of their own".

Seems like a problematic condition for the OP if you want to have any kind of meaningful debate here. You are assuming your premise and wanting to force everyone to accept it as a condition of the debate.
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And that's a problem because?
How quickly they forget. . . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue_(duo)
  #80  
Old 09-26-2019, 03:40 AM
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I interpret OP to mean he/she dislikes when parents drag their kids along to a protest, put signs in their kids hands, and tell them "say what I tell you to say."
Really? Because I interpret the OP as wanting to take an obvious dig at Greta Thunberg as somehow being "manipulated" while disallowing any defence of her.

Last edited by MrDibble; 09-26-2019 at 03:41 AM.
  #81  
Old 09-26-2019, 05:49 AM
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Bullshit. You are superimposing what I said about a couple of groups over all groups across the spectrum. Go to the link I provided in post #12, then tell me there is no difference between what is happening in those photos and letting little Sissy hold a sign as she rides on Daddy's shoulders.
Once again, I have not even suggested that all examples are exploitations of children. Is anyone here suggesting that there are no examples that might qualify as exploitation?
You said:

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But once you put a sign in their hands and/or lead them in a chant you've stepped over that line.
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1. Exploitation of children
2. Pressure and attacks from peers
3. Pressure and attacks from total strangers
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
If the kids are brought to these events and hold up signs made by their parents or other adults I find it exploitive no matter what the cause is.
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I think this is more about adults exploiting children and not about children speaking for themselves.
I don't know any way to interpret that but accusing families at protests of being exploitative, unless they strictly ensure that their kids don't chant along or hold a sign.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:56 AM
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Which kids are being exploited and how?
So Thurnberg, just showed up at the UN, without an invitation, walked up to the podium and gave her speech?

Wow, why don't more people in the world, just do that?
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:03 AM
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So Thurnberg, just showed up at the UN, without an invitation, walked up to the podium and gave her speech?

Wow, why don't more people in the world, just do that?
Not sure how that demonstrates she’s being exploited.
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Old 09-26-2019, 10:17 AM
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So Thurnberg, just showed up at the UN, without an invitation, walked up to the podium and gave her speech?
So, she's being exploited by the UN, who invited her? And before that, by the US Senate?

Did you really think that comeback made sense, in your head?
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Old 09-26-2019, 11:07 AM
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How quickly they forget. . . . .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Blue_(duo)
Again, the issue there isn't "teaching your children your values," the issue there is, "white supremacy is a terrible 'value.'"
  #86  
Old 09-26-2019, 12:09 PM
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How do you make the distinction between one and the other?
If the child is using words that are supposed to be way above their education level, they've likely been coached.
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Old 09-26-2019, 12:15 PM
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1. "Here, honey-stand right here and hold this sign...and don't forget to yell "God hates fags!" to everyone that passes by."
2. "Mom, I'm going down to the anti-abortion rally because I want people to know how feel on the subject."

Can you see the distinction?
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How you can know which is which passing by a rally on the street is impressive.
Pay attention to which children look like they'd much prefer being anywhere else when not mugging for a camera.

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Old 09-26-2019, 12:39 PM
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If the person's actions have been focused on their particular cause and they now advocate for it publicly then that seems fine to me. Far better in a way than poorly educated adults taking talking points from ALEC.

Parrots, or props, simply mouthing words is always a turn off. The age of the prop hardly matters.
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Old 09-26-2019, 12:42 PM
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What about situations that aren't such obvious outliers? Is Gavin Grimm best described by your first scenario, or your second? David Hogg? Malala Yousafzai? Which of the teenagers on this list are being exploited, and which are expressing their own opinions?
If I were to lay down a standard, it would be two-fold. Here is the first part:
If the issue directly affects or threatens to immediately affect children, and if the children have a clear interest in the issue, and if the children can be reasonably expected to understand that the issue affects or threatens to immediately affect them, then it is appropriate and effective for the child to raise awareness of the issue. It's like they have standing in the court of public opinion.

If someone lacks this standing, it does not invalidate their message. In my opinion it still makes it harder to take them seriously.
This covers awareness-raising activities of Mr. Grimm, Mr. Hogg, Ms. Yousafzai, Ms. Brown, Ms. Chavez, Mr. Contreras, Ms. Copeny, Ms. Dias, Ms. Jennings, Mr. Napoles, Ms. Kasky, Ms. Corin, Ms. González, Mr. Wind, Ms. Reid, and Ms. Totah.

Ms. Elder and Ms. Shahidi's activities are sort of on the borderline because they try to get out the young adult vote, which doesn't really apply to children per se. But neither of them are children and the target group (I believe) is young adults. I would still use the same standard but with "young adults" instead of children. As such their activism is appropriate and not held back by their ages.

Ms. Margolin, Mr. Martinez, and Ms. Thunberg don't qualify unless and until they show that climate change has directly affected them or threatens to immediately affect them. Someone from the recently submerged villages of the Solomon Islands, for example, would have that superficial "standing" that Margolin, Martinez, and Thunberg simply don't have.

Here is the second part of the standard:
Children are still at a disadvantage when it comes to proposing or endorsing a solution. The assumption is that children can recognize pain and inequity, but they don't yet understand how the world works. What does it take to do away with this handicap? Reputation, endorsements from adults ("this kid knows her stuff"), interviews, essays, debates, pretty much anything that shows that the kid knows how the world works like an adult would (should).
I do not now take the time to evaluate the previously mentioned children under this half of my standard.

~Max
  #90  
Old 09-26-2019, 12:49 PM
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If the child is using words that are supposed to be way above their education level, they've likely been coached.
So, the smarter a kid is, the less weight we should give to their words and ideas?

Terrible standard.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:08 PM
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So, she's being exploited by the UN, who invited her? And before that, by the US Senate?

Did you really think that comeback made sense, in your head?
What, the UN and the US Senate can't or won't exploit children or anyone else for that matter? Does that really make sense to you?
  #92  
Old 09-26-2019, 02:12 PM
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One problem with kids speaking on political or global matters is that knowledge is limited and their views are simplistic.
And that's not true of grown-ups? If grown-ups had unlimited knowledge and wisdom, there wouldn't be any need for border controls, prisons, asylum processes...
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Last edited by Nava; 09-26-2019 at 02:12 PM.
  #93  
Old 09-26-2019, 02:13 PM
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Exploitation = they are saying something I don't like

At least that's how a lot of posters in this thread seem to be using that word.
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  #94  
Old 09-26-2019, 02:18 PM
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What, the UN and the US Senate can't or won't exploit children or anyone else for that matter? Does that really make sense to you?
The UN "exploiting" Greta Thunberg into yelling at them for twenty minutes doesn't make a ton of sense to me.
  #95  
Old 09-26-2019, 02:20 PM
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Trying to explain what might qualify as exploitation to those that refuse to believe that exploitation even exists is a fool's errand.
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Old 09-26-2019, 02:34 PM
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Trying to explain what might qualify as exploitation to those that refuse to believe that exploitation even exists is a fool's errand.
I certainly believe that exploitation exists. I have yet to see any evidence that it applies to any examples from current events (whom I'm not allowed to name specifically).
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Last edited by Airbeck; 09-26-2019 at 02:35 PM.
  #97  
Old 09-26-2019, 03:06 PM
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What, the UN and the US Senate can't or won't exploit children or anyone else for that matter? Does that really make sense to you?
So your answer is "Yes, I really did think that made sense."
  #98  
Old 09-26-2019, 03:53 PM
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nevermind.

Last edited by Miller; 09-26-2019 at 03:54 PM.
  #99  
Old 09-26-2019, 06:02 PM
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Exploitation = they are saying something I don't like

At least that's how a lot of posters in this thread seem to be using that word.
???

Exploitation is using someone else to further your own agenda. There are many parties in the Senate and the UN that would like to see the world take a tougher policy stance on climate change. Inviting a 16 year old girl to help influence that agenda seems like a no brainer. And when Trump makes fun of her, like they all knew he would, even better.
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Old 09-27-2019, 01:44 AM
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Exploitation is using someone else to further your own agenda.
It's using someone else unfairly. What's unfair about inviting a known climate change activist to speak on ... climate change?
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