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  #1  
Old 10-07-2019, 11:47 AM
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Is it time to bring up the 25th Amendment again?


Because our Fearless Leader just tweeted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by I Am Oz, the Great and Powerful
As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (Iíve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

....the captured ISIS fighters and families. The U.S. has done far more than anyone could have ever expected, including the capture of 100% of the ISIS Caliphate. It is time now for others in the region, some of great wealth, to protect their own territory. THE USA IS GREAT!
No, not The Onion. If only.


Link above is to the Trump Twitter Archive, where you can read Trump's tweets without having to click on his actual Twitter feed. Direct links follow, if you must go there.

https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...32249821388801
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/...32251390042118

Memo to Republicans: it's your easiest out. Might want to take it.
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Old 10-07-2019, 11:56 AM
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A couple of tweets you dislike are not sufficient evidence "that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office". Sorry.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:05 PM
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You don't think insanity is a disability?
  #4  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:06 PM
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You don't think insanity is a disability?
I don't think those two tweets are evidence of "insanity".
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:06 PM
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After decades of climbing, Trump finally ascends the Peak of "Mt. Stupid" and surveys the world around him in a state of omniscience. Next up: the Valley of Despair.
  #6  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:27 PM
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A couple of tweets you dislike are not sufficient evidence "that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office". Sorry.
That's true, it's not sufficient evidence. It's the latest evidence.
  #7  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:32 PM
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Hey, the good news is that you don't have to convince me. You've just got to convince Vice-President Pence, and a majority of the Cabinet. Do you think you've done that yet? Do you think you're even close? I don't.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
A couple of tweets you dislike are not sufficient evidence "that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office". Sorry.
Apparently you're unfamiliar with what Trump says and tweets. Apparently you're under the misapprehension that he sounds totally sane the rest of the time.
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Old 10-07-2019, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Because our Fearless Leader just tweeted this:

No, not The Onion. If only.
...
Link above is to the Trump Twitter Archive, where you can read Trump's tweets without having to click on his actual Twitter feed. Direct links follow, if you must go there.

...
Hey thanks for that link! I have avoided clicking Trump tweet links, and now have a way to view the carnage.
  #10  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:37 PM
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Hey, the good news is that you don't have to convince me. You've just got to convince Vice-President Pence, and a majority of the Cabinet. Do you think you've done that yet? Do you think you're even close? I don't.
Well, I guess that shuts down this forum (and Elections too), since there's no reason to believe our debates here aren't read by anyone like that, so none of our debates will ever convince the people who need convincing.

OK everybody, time to shut down these forums!
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Old 10-07-2019, 01:25 PM
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Is it time to bring up the 25th Amendment again?


In a word: no.
  #12  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:26 PM
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Is so.
  #13  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:07 PM
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Apparently you're unfamiliar with what Trump says and tweets. Apparently you're under the misapprehension that he sounds totally sane the rest of the time.
I don't follow President Trump's (or anyone else's) Twitter account with any regularity. As I told ElvisL1ves, I don't think he sounds "insane" in the two tweets from your OP. If you think there were some other tweets that were better evidence of insanity, perhaps you should have included those in your OP instead of the ones you did.

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Originally Posted by RTFirefly View Post
Well, I guess that shuts down this forum (and Elections too), since there's no reason to believe our debates here aren't read by anyone like that, so none of our debates will ever convince the people who need convincing.

OK everybody, time to shut down these forums!
The forums are fine. Your thread title was "Is it time to bring up the 25th Amendment again?" I assumed you meant that in the context of taking action authorized under the 25th Amendment (having the VP & Cabinet remove the President from office). The answer to that is a simple "no". You don't have the votes to do what you want. And trying and failing would get any allies you might have in the Cabinet promptly fired.

If you were actually asking if it's time to bring up the 25th Amendment again to engage in pointlessly calling President Trump "insane", then carry on I guess, but you won't accomplish anything by it. That doesn't mean the forums need to be shut down. It just means that it's not time to bring up the 25th Amendment again (a direct answer to your question), because you don't need to bring it up to tell us that you think President Trump is "insane".
  #14  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Hey, the good news is that you don't have to convince me. You've just got to convince Vice-President Pence, and a majority of the Cabinet. Do you think you've done that yet? Do you think you're even close? I don't.
I guess that just moves us to the next issue; Are Vice President Pence, the cabinet, and other Republicans refusing to carry out their constitutional duties by allowing an unfit person to act as President? And how should we, as voters, respond to this?
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:36 PM
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I guess that just moves us to the next issue; Are Vice President Pence, the cabinet, and other Republicans refusing to carry out their constitutional duties by allowing an unfit person to act as President? ...
No, they are not. They, like me, are unpersuaded that President Trump is "unfit" (the 25th Amendment says "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office", which by my reading is a bit higher bar than his political opponents judging him "unfit", but YMMV.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
... And how should we, as voters, respond to this?
Same as always: we should support the candidates we believe will do the job best.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 10-07-2019 at 02:37 PM.
  #16  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:45 PM
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No, they are not. They, like me, are unpersuaded that President Trump is "unfit" (the 25th Amendment says "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office", which by my reading is a bit higher bar than his political opponents judging him "unfit", but YMMV.)
How high do you set that bar, btw? What specifically would put him over that bar?
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:47 PM
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You're asking that of a guy who thinks someone claiming to have "great and unmatched wisdom" is mentally healthy. Good luck.
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:50 PM
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You're asking that of a guy who thinks someone claiming to have "great and unmatched wisdom" is mentally healthy. Good luck.
Just wondering if that bar actually exists at all.
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Old 10-07-2019, 02:56 PM
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How high do you set that bar, btw? What specifically would put him over that bar?
I don't have a comprehensive list, but things like unconsciousness, serious injury or illness, etc. Perhaps some circumstances of extreme mental anguish / duress, like a kidnapped wife or child in the hands of bad guys. I believe when President GWB was going in for a medical procedure he temporarily transferred authority to VP Cheney.

"he's not doing it the way I want him to" shouldn't count as "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office".
  #20  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:00 PM
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I guess that just moves us to the next issue; Are Vice President Pence, the cabinet, and other Republicans refusing to carry out their constitutional duties by allowing an unfit person to act as President?
Unfit as defined as "you disagree with him"?
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  #21  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:04 PM
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You're asking that of a guy who thinks someone claiming to have "great and unmatched wisdom" is mentally healthy. Good luck.
You're absolutely correct. Anyone that says things like
Quote:
I think that Iím a better speechwriter than my speechwriters. I know more about policies on any particular issue than my policy directors. And Iíll tell you right now that Iím gonna think Iím a better political director than my political director.
should not be President
  #22  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:04 PM
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No, they are not. They, like me, are unpersuaded that President Trump is "unfit" (the 25th Amendment says "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office", which by my reading is a bit higher bar than his political opponents judging him "unfit", but YMMV.)
I think they are very well aware of his unfitness and this goes all the way back to Day 1 when he walked into the White House completely unprepared for the job, Day 2 where he yelled at Australia because it was getting a little late, all the way to today where he threatens an ally via Twitter. There have been reports that any time something crazy happens in the White House, Pence disappears or suggests that he doesn't know anything about it.

There is profit to be made by having Trump rile up the Fox News, underinformed, and racist base and as long as it's profitable, you won't get any traction out of Mr. Pence's Mother's husband.

Last edited by Intergalactic Gladiator; 10-07-2019 at 03:04 PM.
  #23  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:42 PM
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Maybe I should make a distinction here. His willingness to throw an ally to the wolves if they didn't dig up some political dirt for him isn't evidence that he is unfit for office in the sense of lacking the ability to properly function - IOW, the proper response to such activity is impeachment, NOT the 25th Amendment.

OTOH, his flailing with respect to Turkey and Syria, where he's just doing shit without having a clue about what he's doing, might arguably be evidence for using the 25th Amendment, IMHO. He's a danger to our allies and to that part of the world, but out of no more evil intent that I can see than a bull in a china shop has. You get bulls out of china shops before they break things without knowing what they're doing. Same with President Trump.

To the tune of the "March of the Toreadors":

Please keep your bull outside the china shop
No bulls allowed, that's where they stop
It's the rule, the way it's always been
Your bull cannot come in
By this I must insist that you abide
And keep your bull outside.

-Beethoven's Wig

President Trump is going to be impeached. That's pretty much a given at this point. He may or may not be removed - odds are still heavily in favor of 'not' at this point - but much to my surprise, Mitch is going to make his Senators actually vote on the question. And it's going to be very much a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' vote for GOP Senators in purple states: do you piss off your base and get primaried, or do you piss off everyone not in the hardcore 42% and lose next November?

The 25th Amendment is a way out. There's a very good argument that while he still has the mental capacity to sign his name to contracts and stuff, the demands of the Presidency are quite simply beyond him. This wouldn't involve the GOP repudiating anything he's done that his base actually cares about: they can still hate the libs and the Hispanics and black people and Muslims as much as they want, but they can point to things like the Turkish mess as evidence that the job is simply beyond him. And they can tell the base, "we've got up-and-comers like Tom Cotton and Josh Hawley who agree with Trump on practically everything, but are actually capable of operating the levers of power, and we'll get one of them, or someone similar, into the White House in 2020. And meanwhile, that pathetic dipshit Pence can hold down the fort."
  #24  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:24 PM
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Apparently you're unfamiliar with what Trump says and tweets. Apparently you're under the misapprehension that he sounds totally sane the rest of the time.
You just made my day. Geo-politics is sort-of-kind-of complicated. Something our current commander in chief con not quite grasp.

Last edited by Cabin_Fever; 10-07-2019 at 06:28 PM.
  #25  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:36 PM
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No.

At the end of the 25th procedure, if the President claims he is able to perform the duties of the office - it takes a two-thirds vote of the House and the Senate to refute that claim.

IOW - more difficult than impeachment.
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:47 PM
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No.

At the end of the 25th procedure, if the President claims he is able to perform the duties of the office - it takes a two-thirds vote of the House and the Senate to refute that claim.

IOW - more difficult than impeachment.
Just tell Trump that Obama would fight it every step of the way, and he'll do the opposite.
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Old 10-07-2019, 07:02 PM
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Just tell Trump that Obama would fight it every step of the way, and he'll do the opposite.
Let's see how well that works out for Lindsey - he tried reverse psychology today.
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Old 10-07-2019, 07:20 PM
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I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Obama had ever referred to his own "great and unmatched wisdom". Probably something like this*.

*Link to very gory GIF from Scanners.
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  #29  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:30 PM
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After decades of climbing, Trump finally ascends the Peak of "Mt. Stupid" and surveys the world around him in a state of omniscience. Next up: the Valley of Despair.
Enclosed by the Cliffs of Insanity.
  #30  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:13 AM
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All Iíll say is that if Boris Johnson had tweeted that, Parliament wouldíve held a vote of No Confidence before heíd put his phone down.
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Old 10-08-2019, 02:19 AM
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I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Obama had ever referred to his own "great and unmatched wisdom". Probably something like this*.

*Link to very gory GIF from Scanners.
Trump does three things every week which wouldíve had the Republicans invoking the 25th if Obama had done them.
  #32  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:48 AM
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I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Obama had ever referred to his own "great and unmatched wisdom". Probably something like this*.

*Link to very gory GIF from Scanners.
Everyone here pretty much ignored post #21, so ... that, I guess.
  #33  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:32 AM
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Everyone here pretty much ignored post #21, so ... that, I guess.
Post #21 in context.
Got any more "Look! Over there!"s you'd like to share?
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:35 AM
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When the post I'm responding to starts out "I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Obama had ever ..." then Obama's actions, and Dopers' hypocritical reactions to them are not "Look! Over there!"s.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 10-08-2019 at 09:35 AM.
  #35  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:02 AM
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When the post I'm responding to starts out "I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Obama had ever ..." then Obama's actions, and Dopers' hypocritical reactions to them are not "Look! Over there!"s.
I just had the same reaction when I read over in the other thread how Republicans will never convict a Republican president on impeachable offenses because they are partisan assholes.

SPOILER:
Because perjury is apparently not an impeachable offense except when it is
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  #36  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:05 AM
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What specifically would put him over that bar?
If Trump announced he was switching back to the Democrats.
  #37  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:09 AM
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Everyone here pretty much ignored post #21, so ... that, I guess.
Obama's statement was arrogant. Trump's statement was delusional.

Last edited by Little Nemo; 10-08-2019 at 10:10 AM.
  #38  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:11 AM
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When the post I'm responding to starts out "I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Obama had ever ..." then Obama's actions, and Dopers' hypocritical reactions to them are not "Look! Over there!"s.
Oh? I don't think you really understood the context. Obama's was a private comment made to a single individual interviewing to be political director, and was part of his strategy to inspire his staff to excellence (Elon Musk does the same thing). If you think it's the same as a certifiable ignoramus sending an illiterate tweet to the entire world with a comical claim to "great and unmatched wisdom" then please go ahead and keep saying it. It's wonderfully entertaining to watch!
  #39  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:21 AM
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Yes, the Clown-in-Chief's Twitter feed is to reality and logic what the sunken city of R'lyeh is to architecture and geometry. That suffices to prove that he's a nitwit, but isn't quite enough to prove that he's incapacitated.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:39 AM
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I thought the most disturbing part of that tweet was actually

"...if Turkey does anything that I... consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (Iíve done before!)."

It just makes all U.S. diplomacy meaningless.
  #41  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:49 AM
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I thought the most disturbing part of that tweet was actually

"...if Turkey does anything that I... consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (Iíve done before!)."

It just makes all U.S. diplomacy meaningless.
US diplomacy became meaningless around the time that he of the "great and unmatched wisdom" had personally insulted the leader of every major US ally at least once.
  #42  
Old 10-08-2019, 12:02 PM
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When the post I'm responding to starts out "I'm just trying to imagine the reaction if Obama had ever ..." then Obama's actions, and Dopers' hypocritical reactions to them are not "Look! Over there!"s.
Did Obama tweet this out to the world? Or did he say it to one guy during a job interview? Because thereís a difference between the two.

Also, itís a bit different watching Obama bragging about how smart he is because Obama actually is smart. Watching Trump do it is like watching a morbidly obese guy flexing and taking selfies in front of a mirror going ďBeefcake!Ē Itís more than a bit delusional.
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