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Old 10-10-2019, 10:57 AM
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Transgender toddlers


Theres probably no subject that hasn't been discussed here, so forgive me if theres already one on this subject.
I recently went to a PFLAG meeting and one of the guests mentioned their 3 year old grandchild, and said they were transgender, and the parents are being supportive.
I am thinking 3 is too young to decide something like this, isn't it? When I was 3, I used to pretend I was a dog sometimes.
Should children this young be guided to this decision, which they could possibly regret?
can you know that young?
And why is there such a sudden flux of transgenders? When I was little, there were hardly any. I don't think its because they were, and didn't speak out, I think its just happening all of a sudden. Is it something in the water/
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:17 AM
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I'm gonna take your post seriously because I know IRL people who basically believe what you've laid out here. But it is worth noting that your post is pretty offensive and doesn't read like a genuine effort to learn given your comparison of gender identity to human identity and your suggestion that there is "something in the water."

On "the sudden influx": People who are transgender who grew up in earlier decades often weren't familiar with the concept of being transgender. Sometimes they recognized that they were gender non-conforming and often identified themselves as gay or lesbian. Sometimes they just felt "off" or bristled at gender norms that did not make sense to them. With the rise of awareness of people who are transgender, you naturally get more people identifying as transgender, even if there were no other factors involved. Obviously, you also hear more often about transgender people as the culture becomes more accepting and people are less closeted.

On kids: When did you decide your own gender? You probably didn't do so consciously. Your gender identity was formed and imposed upon you in innumerable ways from a very young age, like everyone else's. You get labeled a gender at birth, in most circumstances, based on your genitals. And then you slowly learn how conforming or non-conforming you are to that label. Unfortunately, there is a ton of gendered activity and gender performance even at 3. It should not be a huge shock that kids at that age would start to encounter dissonance between their assigned gender and how they feel. Why does it strike you as a huge and consequential decision, potentially made at too young an age, for a three-year-old to be identified as transgender? Why is that more consequential, in your mind, than identifying them as a cis boy or cis girl at the same age?

Last edited by Richard Parker; 10-10-2019 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:25 AM
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I did not mean my post to be offensive. I've actually read somewhere that hormones in our food and water may contribute to changes. What I meant was, its a very young age to decide and start hormone therapy at puberty, we don't let those under age 18 vote, so
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:28 AM
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Are they starting hormone therapy at 3?
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:29 AM
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I did not mean my post to be offensive. I've actually read somewhere that hormones in our food and water may contribute to changes. What I meant was, its a very young age to decide and start hormone therapy at puberty, we don't let those under age 18 vote, so
Did this grandparent mention hormone therapy? Perhaps their grandchild has simply not been pushed into conforming to traditional gender choices and activities. With almost no information none of us can evaluate what is happening here.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:37 AM
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I'm unaware of any hormone therapy or any medical or pharmaceutical treatment being prescribed for very young children who identify as transgender. Does anyone have a cite for this, or is this just fear that a kid might call themselves transgender, and their parents might be supportive? If the latter, it sounds like absolutely nothing to be afraid of or worried about in any sense at all.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:48 AM
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I did not mean my post to be offensive. I've actually read somewhere that hormones in our food and water may contribute to changes. What I meant was, its a very young age to decide and start hormone therapy at puberty, we don't let those under age 18 vote, so
At the age of 3, there's certainly no commitment to hormone treatment. But, AIUI, if a child is quite certain before puberty that they are transgender and wish to undergo hormone treatment, the physiological outcomes (and therefore probably also the psychological/social outcomes) are better if artificial hormone therapy begins before natural pubertal hormones begin flowing. AIUI, this may involve treatment to block/delay the onset of natural puberty, but I think this is something that's not done until close to when natural puberty is expected to begin.

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I am thinking 3 is too young to decide something like this, isn't it? When I was 3, I used to pretend I was a dog sometimes.
Should children this young be guided to this decision, which they could possibly regret?
I think guiding toddlers to a transgender life is not the intent; rather, the intent is to avoid psychosocially binning them (either intentionally or unintentionally) as either male or female. Example, if a parent has a 3YO physiological boy who decides he likes playing with the girls and wearing cute dresses like they do, maybe the parent shouldn't yell "STOP DOING THAT SHIT - YOU'RE A BOY, NOW ACT LIKE IT". Instead of guiding the kid towards a transgender life, or binning him to a cisgender life, let him explore himself.

FWIW, environmental estrogens are an issue. Not sure what it does to boys, but for girls, it's been implicated in the early onset of puberty, a widespread trend that's been going on for several decades now.

Last edited by Machine Elf; 10-10-2019 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 11:57 AM
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What I meant was, its a very young age to decide and start hormone therapy at puberty, we don't let those under age 18 vote, so
Good lord.

Okay, first, the kid isn't going to start hormone therapy "at puberty." At most, they might take hormone blockers at that point, which delay the onset of puberty, and give the kid more time to figure out their gender stuff. Also, they're three. There's about a decade between now, and when they start going through puberty, for them to change their mind. Lastly, these sorts of decisions are made under medical supervision. There's going to be a doctor, who specializes in this field, working with the kid and making sure that they're genuinely trans, and not "confused" or whatever you're worried might be happening here.
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:09 PM
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Good lord.

Okay, first, the kid isn't going to start hormone therapy "at puberty." At most, they might take hormone blockers at that point, which delay the onset of puberty, and give the kid more time to figure out their gender stuff. Also, they're three. There's about a decade between now, and when they start going through puberty, for them to change their mind. Lastly, these sorts of decisions are made under medical supervision. There's going to be a doctor, who specializes in this field, working with the kid and making sure that they're genuinely trans, and not "confused" or whatever you're worried might be happening here.


This is the part that the "It's just a phase!" crowd seem to miss. Hey, if it is "just a phase", then what's the problem? Just wait it out, like you would if the kid got a mohawk, or something. If they're still in this "phase" after a decade, hey, maybe you were wrong about it being a phase?
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:11 PM
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I too will give you the benefit of the doubt that you are asking these questions in good faith and are open to having your mind changed. When you personally have never had any doubts about your gender or felt like something was off, it can be difficult to understand people who have not had certainty (or had certainty in the opposite direction).

But when you ask questions, first do a little introspection. If you are concerned that a toddler might change their mind and decide they aren't trans at age 10, ask yourself, why are you concerned about that? Is it an issue for the kid, or for you? If you think hormone treatment at age 3 is too early, maybe do a little research to find out if that's even a thing. Or ask people here, what age would they start hormone therapy, without jumping to commentary that it's a bad thing.

People will be very open to educating you. it's a new topic for a lot of people, and those who understand the topic are generally happy to discuss it, if you come at it with an open mind and leave your preconceived ideas out of your initial questions.

Last edited by TroutMan; 10-10-2019 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:15 PM
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1) What is a "PFLAG Meeting". I don't recognize the acronym.

2) How does a 3-year old "decide" gender?

3) How do parents "force" toddlers into a gender? For example, is buying a skirt for your 3-year old girl a definition of "force"?
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:17 PM
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There is a chance that the grandparents are overreading something in the toddler's behavior. A designated-male kid who dresses up in fairy princess dresses isn't necessarily going to identify as female. Maybe the kid just likes the swish and beauty of dresses.

I'd rather we de-emphasize gender for young kids, not pushing them to be Boy or Girl but just be whoever fits for them.

Of course, if the kid is already strongly identifying as a boy or girl, then ferchrissakes there's no harm at all in taking them at their word. And if their word changes next week, the awesome thing is, we can adapt to that change as well.
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:27 PM
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1. PFLAG is a support and advocacy organization for friends and family of LGBTQ individuals (the acronym stood for for Parents and Friends of Lesbians And Gays).

2. How did you decide your own gender? It typically isn't a conscious decision, it's just something you know. It can be much harder to "know" it when what you feel conflicts with what society is imposing on you.

3. Yes, dressing a girl in a skirt is imposing a gender on them. If they feel like a girl and want to wear a skirt, then it's not a problem. If they don't want to wear a skirt because "it's girly" and they like boy stuff, then it can be called "forcing" a gender. There are myriad things we do that tell kids what gender we think they are, like colors, toys, and behavior.
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:30 PM
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1) What is a "PFLAG Meeting". I don't recognize the acronym.
PFLAG is a gay rights organization. It originally was an acronym for "Parents and Families of Lesbians and Gays."
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Old 10-10-2019, 12:32 PM
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This is a serious question and not trying to be disrespectful to anyone. I would imagine that the vast majority of transgenders live out their lives as they are biologically born. How hard on them has that proved out to be? Is there some compromised state that many of them adapt to make their lives more tolerable?
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:27 PM
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This is a serious question and not trying to be disrespectful to anyone. I would imagine that the vast majority of transgenders live out their lives as they are biologically born. How hard on them has that proved out to be? Is there some compromised state that many of them adapt to make their lives more tolerable?
First, the sad fact is that the time frame in which they "live out their lives" is often cut short by suicide. From a study in the American Academy of Pediatrics:
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Nearly 14% of adolescents [overall] reported a previous suicide attempt; disparities by gender identity in suicide attempts were found. Female to male adolescents reported the highest rate of attempted suicide (50.8%), followed by adolescents who identified as not exclusively male or female (41.8%), male to female adolescents (29.9%), questioning adolescents (27.9%), female adolescents (17.6%), and male adolescents (9.8%).
How hard it is to live as the wrong gender will be very personal. I'm not aware of studies that attempt to quantify this, or even how you could quantify it (although suicide attempts seems like a pretty good metric). One place to start would be listening to stories of transgender people who hid it for a while before coming out and possibly transitioning. This might also be pertinent, from a Q&A in psychiatry.org on gender dysphoria:

Quote:
Q: How can a person deal with gender dysphoria without gender reassignment?

A: ...Nor do all individuals with gender dysphoria desire a complete gender reassignment. Some are satisfied with taking hormones alone. Some are satisfied with no medical or surgical treatment but prefer to dress as the felt gender in public. Some people make use of Trans affirming social networks online and in local supportive communities to cope with gender dysphoria and claim a gender identity and forms of expression that do not require medical treatments. Some individuals choose to express their felt gender in private settings only because they are either uncomfortable or fearful of publicly expressing their felt gender. However some people who are denied or have no access to gender reassignment treatments can become anxious, depressed, socially withdrawn and suicidal.
(bolding mine)
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:38 PM
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I'm gonna take your post seriously because I know IRL people who basically believe what you've laid out here. But it is worth noting that your post is pretty offensive and doesn't read like a genuine effort to learn given your comparison of gender identity to human identity and your suggestion that there is "something in the water."
I think it is an earnest question and, though naive, not offensive when taken in context.

The remark about pretending to be a dog just illustrates the boundless imagination of children, nothing more. There was a little boy across the street from us who used to come over so my daughter could put nail polish, make-up, and a tutu on him. He was not transgender (we know him now as an adult), just liked to play dress-up. Kids like to pretend to be things they are not, whether it is the opposite sex, astronauts, or dogs. Pretending to be a dog does not indicate a child identifies as a dog, and not all children who pretend to be another gender are transgender.

The question about why there appear to be so many more transgender people now than decades ago is also an earnest one, and one worth asking (and I liked your answer).
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:48 PM
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Has this child had a thorough medical examination? Maybe s/he is intersex and it's not obvious just by looking at them from the outside.
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:59 PM
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I too think that age 3 is far too early to read this much into a child's behavior. I can't even recall anything much from before age 4. I would sure hate to be told, when older, "Well, when you were 3, you said this, therefore......."
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:17 PM
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So, a boy who likes playing with dolls and likes dresses has to be a girl? Talk about being sexist. He's a boy who likes "girly" stuff. Or are you saying that only girls can play with dolls?

"We're just delaying puberty" makes it look like you're taking a gap year before going to college. You're pumping hormones into a healthy child and stopping a normal, natural progression in their lives.


This is an atrocity and I'm sure in 10 to 20 years we'll hear from those kids living conflicted lives that their parents brought upon them. We'll look at those parents as we do antivaxxers.
Parents are projecting a fashion onto their kids and harming them. Yes, I used the word fashion.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:20 PM
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My kid came out at 14 (M-F). When asked how long she had known the answer was "Pretty much from birth."

We had no idea. So, I think it's certainly reasonable that this kid knows what s/he's talking about, and if s/he's incorrect there is plenty of time between now and puberty to figure it out.

Last edited by Leaffan; 10-10-2019 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:24 PM
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So, a boy who likes playing with dolls and likes dresses has to be a girl? Talk about being sexist. He's a boy who likes "girly" stuff. Or are you saying that only girls can play with dolls?

"We're just delaying puberty" makes it look like you're taking a gap year before going to college. You're pumping hormones into a healthy child and stopping a normal, natural progression in their lives.


This is an atrocity and I'm sure in 10 to 20 years we'll hear from those kids living conflicted lives that their parents brought upon them. We'll look at those parents as we do antivaxxers.
Parents are projecting a fashion onto their kids and harming them. Yes, I used the word fashion.
Well this post is about as ridiculous as the OP.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:35 PM
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So, a boy who likes playing with dolls and likes dresses has to be a girl...

This is an atrocity...
I was going to respond with where you are wrong with the first part of your response. Then I got to the last part and realized that any response would be wasted.

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Well this post is about as ridiculous as the OP.
The OP seems to be willing to learn, even if the questions were a little ignorant. The other post is pure bigotry.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:35 PM
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I too think that age 3 is far too early to read this much into a child's behavior. I can't even recall anything much from before age 4. I would sure hate to be told, when older, "Well, when you were 3, you said this, therefore......."
Yeah. I'm all for supporting older kids who identify as transgender, but three seems way too young to say anything more definitive than "I think this kid might identify as transgender when they're older." Most three-year-olds are still at an "all dogs are boys and all cats are girls" level of (mis)understanding.

Incidentally, I spent six months or so when I was around seven insisting that I was a boy and wanted to be called Christopher. Nobody took me remotely seriously, as it was 1983. As it happened, they were right not to take me seriously; I had merely discovered that sexism was a thing and that I didn't like it, so I'd come up with a slightly bizarre form of imaginative play that I thought would protect against it. (I would, of course, never have been able to articulate this at seven.) Nowadays I suppose it would be taken very seriously indeed, and under different circumstances with a different kid, that would be the right thing to do. I don't quite know where I'm going with this, but I do think kid-behavior is often too idiosyncratic to fit neatly into adult paradigms.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:38 PM
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Yeah. I'm all for supporting older kids who identify as transgender, but three seems way too young to say anything more definitive than "I think this kid might identify as transgender when they're older." Most three-year-olds are still at an "all dogs are boys and all cats are girls" level of (mis)understanding.
What do you think is being done with a 3-year old that is more definitive than saying "they might identify as transgender when older?" Of those things you think are happening, which do you think are bad?
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:45 PM
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* I think that even at the age of three, people perceive gender roles and expectations and gendered notions of "how one should be", and can be aware of being a misfit within that.

* I do think that, from a previous utter lack of social awareness of the possibility of transgender -- the only possibility that seemed to dawn upon parents for a long long time was that their child might be gay or lesbian -- we have moved to a point where people who perceive gender variance are immediately thinking in terms of male-to-female or female-to-male trans.

That is narrow.

Message boards frequented by teens and 20-somethings are chock-full of people who identify as demigirls, agender people, genderfluid folks, persons "on the masculine spectrum", and a huge host of other gender-variant options that may include hormonal or surgical intervention but often do not. I think it would be a better world if more parents were better acquainted with the depth and width of choices and options for identities. Binary trans is not the end-all and be-all of being gender variant. The tolerance and acceptance, on the other hand, is an unmitigated good thing.


* I don't know why it is, but I am finding it difficult to envision the OP at a PFLAG support group.

Last edited by AHunter3; 10-10-2019 at 02:46 PM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
[...]You're pumping hormones into a healthy child and stopping a normal, natural progression in their lives.


This is an atrocity and I'm sure in 10 to 20 years we'll hear from those kids living conflicted lives that their parents brought upon them. We'll look at those parents as we do antivaxxers.
[...]
People who give pubescent trans-identifying youths hormones to delay the onset of dismaying secondary sex characteristics are opting to do what current medical practice indicates. Antivaxxers are refusing to allow what current medical practice (and even some laws) indicates.

I think throwing that final punch about "fashion" suggests you're just trying to be hurtful, and not to bring something valued to the discussion.
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Old 10-10-2019, 02:46 PM
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My experience is that even at a young age boys and girls act so different.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:21 PM
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There is a chance that the grandparents are overreading something in the toddler's behavior. A designated-male kid who dresses up in fairy princess dresses isn't necessarily going to identify as female. Maybe the kid just likes the swish and beauty of dresses.

I'd rather we de-emphasize gender for young kids, not pushing them to be Boy or Girl but just be whoever fits for them.

Of course, if the kid is already strongly identifying as a boy or girl, then ferchrissakes there's no harm at all in taking them at their word. And if their word changes next week, the awesome thing is, we can adapt to that change as well.
Yeah, that. ALL that. There's nothing at all about the life of a three-year-old that means you need to think about their gender at all, either "matching" or "non-matching". They're not even going to have to choose a bathroom for another two years - nearly half their life away. Bunches of three-year-olds haven't yet figured out that there ARE two pronouns, let alone what the 'right' way of using them is. There may be people in the child's life (other children, particularly) who will pull the "you can't do XYZ, only girls/boys can do that" but the appropriate everyone-affirming response to this is "that's dumb" not "well I AM a boy/girl so there!"

If the grandparents have decided they'll be affirming of their grandkid if/when they decide to live as the other gender, that's great. Hopefully that should take about thirty seconds - now you can think about whether you're going to take them to the park, the library or the museum this afternoon, and what they'll eat for tea. Going to PFLAG meetings at this stage (unless they're already there on behalf of another family member) does strike me as a little over-invested, though that's not the worst thing in the world to be.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:25 PM
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My kid came out at 14 (M-F). When asked how long she had known the answer was "Pretty much from birth."

We had no idea. So, I think it's certainly reasonable that this kid knows what s/he's talking about, and if s/he's incorrect there is plenty of time between now and puberty to figure it out.

How does a boy know he is a girl? Because the like femenine things?

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People who give pubescent trans-identifying youths hormones to delay the onset of dismaying secondary sex characteristics are opting to do what current medical practice indicates. Antivaxxers are refusing to allow what current medical practice (and even some laws) indicates.

I think throwing that final punch about "fashion" suggests you're just trying to be hurtful, and not to bring something valued to the discussion.

You're already making a choice, it's not a neutral decision. People who hate their bodies have mental issues that won't be corrected. Yes, my use of fashion is intentional because parents who harm their children can at least take that very minor insult.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:26 PM
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* I don't know why it is, but I am finding it difficult to envision the OP at a PFLAG support group.
My son was gay (was meaning he died two years ago).
I have a friend who has transitioned mtf. I suppose I am going to have to take lessons on how to phrase my posts, as I see I've misrepresented my opinions.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:28 PM
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(sorry about the doublé post)

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I was going to respond with where you are wrong with the first part of your response. Then I got to the last part and realized that any response would be wasted.

How does a three-year-old boy know he is actually a girl?
How do the parents know?

Can't Boys be "girly"? Are we saying the effeminate boys cannot exist and thus they must be girls?

There's a hint of bigotry in "if he acts like a girl and likes girly thing he can't be a boy".
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:33 PM
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Yeah, that. ALL that. There's nothing at all about the life of a three-year-old that means you need to think about their gender at all, either "matching" or "non-matching". They're not even going to have to choose a bathroom for another two years - nearly half their life away. Bunches of three-year-olds haven't yet figured out that there ARE two pronouns, let alone what the 'right' way of using them is. There may be people in the child's life (other children, particularly) who will pull the "you can't do XYZ, only girls/boys can do that" but the appropriate everyone-affirming response to this is "that's dumb" not "well I AM a boy/girl so there!"
Thirded.

I'm sure that a transgender adult in retrospect can understand that their 3 year old feelings were an indication of their adult identity, but that doesn't mean we can look at a 3 year old and determine what their gender identity will be as an adult.
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Old 10-10-2019, 03:34 PM
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How does a boy know he is a girl? Because the like femenine things?
How does a grown male know that he is a woman?

How does a grown female person know she is?

How does she know she has meaningful things in common with other people who are also female? What makes it an "identity"? How does she know which of the things she feels and values and so forth are uniquely her own and which ones are things she has in common with other women?

Under what valid circumstances could a male, of any age, come to feel that he has more in common with them than he has with other people whose bodies are male?
  #35  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:40 PM
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I can't help but suspect also that if the parents and grandparents are heavily in favor of the trans movement, that they might also project their inner assumptions onto their 3-year old. It's like how to those who have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. They may be so keenly attuned to the trans cause that they're reading "trans" in their kids' behavior where there isn't any.
  #36  
Old 10-10-2019, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
How does a grown male know that he is a woman?

How does a grown female person know she is?

How does she know she has meaningful things in common with other people who are also female? What makes it an "identity"? How does she know which of the things she feels and values and so forth are uniquely her own and which ones are things she has in common with other women?

Under what valid circumstances could a male, of any age, come to feel that he has more in common with them than he has with other people whose bodies are male?
This is probably a good point in the conversation to bring up that there's not only a divide between people who feel like they match their assigned gender and people who feel like they don't - there's also a divide between people who have a strong feeling about it, and people who don't.

This is what the useful term Cis by Default is good for.

Conversations like this can often get derailed because the transperson "side" is saying things like "well, imagine you suddenly had the opposite body - it would feel all wrong, right?" and the other side is full of CBD people shrugging their shoulders and going "eh - wouldn't feel like anything much". Bacause for them, that's actually true.
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  #37  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:11 PM
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My experience is that even at a young age boys and girls act so different.
That's a generalization, and you can't apply a generalization to any one specific person.

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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
How does a three-year-old boy know he is actually a girl?
How do the parents know?

Can't Boys be "girly"? Are we saying the effeminate boys cannot exist and thus they must be girls?

There's a hint of bigotry in "if he acts like a girl and likes girly thing he can't be a boy".
I have no personal experience with this but parents of transgender girls have reported that their child said things like, "When is my penis going to fall off?" There are behaviors that go beyond being effeminate that could indicate a child is transgender.
  #38  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:16 PM
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When you proclaim social acceptance and medial treatments, naturally more trans folk are going to come forward. My opinion- there aren't more trans people than there were in previous generations. There are just more being open about it.
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  #39  
Old 10-10-2019, 04:20 PM
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There's a hint of bigotry in "if he acts like a girl and likes girly thing he can't be a boy".
Luckily, you are literally the only person in this thread who is saying that.
  #40  
Old 10-10-2019, 05:24 PM
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What I meant was, its a very young age to decide and start hormone therapy at puberty, we don't let those under age 18 vote, so
My goodness, here we go again! The practice currently is not to start administering hormones but to BLOCK hormones to delay puberty until the child is more mature/legally of age. That delaying action is entirely reversible - just stop taking the blockers and puberty ensues. It allows more time before any permanent, non-reversible action is taken, whether that's remaining the birth gender or transitioning via hormones and/or surgery.

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"We're just delaying puberty" makes it look like you're taking a gap year before going to college. You're pumping hormones into a healthy child and stopping a normal, natural progression in their lives.
No, you're BLOCKING hormones, not "pumping them in". And there are other conditions, such as precocious puberty where medically delaying puberty has been standard practice for decades. It's not some wholly new treatment cooked up this past year for just the transgender population, these medications have been used for decades for various conditions. Their effects, side effects, risks, and benefits are well known.

Someone who is transgender, whether treated or not, is not, in fact, normal. They have a serious and unusual condition that, untreated, can have terrible consequences. So no, we're not talking about a "normal" progression in the lives even if it's "natural". So is cobra venom and botulism, but we stop those when we can.

The acid test is whether or not we have better outcomes with gender transition or by denying it. You might be squicked out by trangender people and/or their condition, but it's not about YOUR comfort. It's about THEIR best interests. What treatment results in better outcomes?
  #41  
Old 10-10-2019, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
Can't Boys be "girly"? Are we saying the effeminate boys cannot exist and thus they must be girls?

There's a hint of bigotry in "if he acts like a girl and likes girly thing he can't be a boy".
I was asked this numerous times myself: "Why can't you just be a boy who happens to like girly things? Why does this have to make you a girl? Aren't you just perpetuating the notion that to be a boy you have to (only) do boy things and exhibit boy mannerisms?"

It's a valid question.

My answer is that in my case my experience caused me to have an epiphany moment where I realized it was a big freaking deal — in this world, in this society — to be a boy who happens to be girlish. And that the word "just" in the sentence "Why can't you just be a boy who happens to be like a girl?" is a meaningless word aside from being an attempt to dismiss the conversation. There's nothing "just" about it. It makes one as different from boys who don't fit that description as being gay or being conventionally transgender and seeking to transition. It makes a lot of other things in life very different, especially courting and flirting and hooking up and all that stuff.

Of course we can "be girly". I was. I didn't consider it to be a big deal originally. It was just a way in which I was different. I was wrong. It's a big deal.
  #42  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:02 PM
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My experience is that even at a young age boys and girls act so different.
Sure they do, because it's impossible even at a young age to not pick up gender expectations projected by the people in your life--parents, siblings, day care providers.

I offer as proof the idea of the doll tea party, which little girls are supposed to just adore, and apparently some of them do. Where the hell would they get this idea? This is not an idea that will spontaneously arise, in anyone. Not in a little girl, not in a little boy. It's a really weird idea when you think about it. "Hey, let's sit around a table, with our dolls and little doll-sized teacups, and pour imaginary tea for our dolls!" Now where would you pick that up? Why would that occur to anyone? Maybe, if their mothers had tea parties. In my experience most American mothers do not. But there it is.

If you happen to be a little girl who thinks that idea is ridiculous and you'd rather go out and build a snow fort and have a snowball fight, you're labeled "a tomboy."

But if you're a little boy who thinks the tea party sounds like a great idea, you're labeled "a sissy."

Tomboys are good and wholesome, sissies are bad. Because tomboys aspire to be men, which is better, and sissies aspire to be women, which is lesser.
  #43  
Old 10-10-2019, 06:54 PM
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My experience is that even at a young age boys and girls act so different.
In general. Nothing wrong with making a generalizations.

Guess what? There are exceptions, as there are to most generalizations.
  #44  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:04 PM
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I can't help but suspect also that if the parents and grandparents are heavily in favor of the trans movement, that they might also project their inner assumptions onto their 3-year old. It's like how to those who have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. They may be so keenly attuned to the trans cause that they're reading "trans" in their kids' behavior where there isn't any.
I get a vibe that the parents need to be in counseling if they're not. A "3 year old m-f" is really just a fact about the family situation at least for the time being, and not the kid. I would drag them all in, but I'm biased that way. Kids get used for all kinds of covert purposes.
  #45  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:27 PM
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I get a vibe that the parents need to be in counseling if they're not. A "3 year old m-f" is really just a fact about the family situation at least for the time being, and not the kid. I would drag them all in, but I'm biased that way. Kids get used for all kinds of covert purposes.
If you don't know anything about this, can you just not post.
  #46  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:48 PM
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So, a boy who likes playing with dolls and likes dresses has to be a girl? Talk about being sexist. He's a boy who likes "girly" stuff. Or are you saying that only girls can play with dolls?

"We're just delaying puberty" makes it look like you're taking a gap year before going to college. You're pumping hormones into a healthy child and stopping a normal, natural progression in their lives.


This is an atrocity and I'm sure in 10 to 20 years we'll hear from those kids living conflicted lives that their parents brought upon them. We'll look at those parents as we do antivaxxers.
Parents are projecting a fashion onto their kids and harming them. Yes, I used the word fashion.
Who the hell are you responding to? What does this have to do with this thread?
  #47  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:48 PM
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To Velocity and drad dog (and anyone else bothered by this), I'll ask the same question I asked Fretful Porpentine:

If the 3-year old expressed to their parents that they were the opposite gender, what do you think "being supportive" of that child entails? Of those things you think are happening, which do you think are bad?

I suspect you have some incorrect ideas about the process at that age (or any age), but I'd rather address your actual ideas than what I imagine them to be.
  #48  
Old 10-10-2019, 07:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ají de Gallina View Post
(sorry about the doublé post)




How does a three-year-old boy know he is actually a girl?
How do the parents know?

Can't Boys be "girly"? Are we saying the effeminate boys cannot exist and thus they must be girls?

There's a hint of bigotry in "if he acts like a girl and likes girly thing he can't be a boy".
Why does this matter? If a 3 year old wants to be referred to as a girl or a boy, why not go ahead and do it? No hormones, no medical treatment, nothing but referring to the kid in the way they want to be referred to.
  #49  
Old 10-10-2019, 08:21 PM
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Double post.

Last edited by Leaffan; 10-10-2019 at 08:21 PM.
  #50  
Old 10-10-2019, 09:08 PM
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My son was gay (was meaning he died two years ago).
I'm very sorry for your loss, SuntanLotion.
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