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  #1301  
Old 04-22-2019, 07:55 AM
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Agreed. I was struck by how this episode showed how Ed had grown since the first season. His explanation of why he and Kelly got divorced would have been very different in the early part of the first season.
In the first season episode where Rob Lowe returned, it was left open ended if Kelly had cheated because he was giving off his irresistible sex pheremones. But in this episode Ed seems to have confirmed it.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:18 AM
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This episode was another example of what The Orville does well:

1. Exploration of personalities

2. Refusing to offer easy solutions to problems

The cool thing about the ending is they could go back to it for more stories or never touch it again. How do we know that's not how it actually happened, after all? Maybe that is the same event that happened in the unaltered timeline - she rejected him on his first call and then thought better of it and later he called again and she went out with him. Memory is a funny thing.

If I can offer a nitpick, it really felt to me like a time lapse of seven years wasn't enough. We don't know for sure how old Ed and Kelly are, but roughly 40ish is a good guess - Seth MacFarlane is 45 and Adrienne Palicki is 35 but the characters don't seem that far apart in age so let's split the difference. So if they're roughly 40 in the show, that would make them in their early 30s when they met.

The idea that you cannot get along with a much younger version of yourself, or of your spouse, makes a lot of sense. It's inconceivable to me that I, a 47-year-old man married to a 42-year-old woman, would be compatible with the 22-year-old version of the exact same woman, and the idea the 42-year-old version of my wife could date the version of me in my 20s is just comical. You're just in a different place in your life. But with the 35-year-old version? Sure. You aren't THAT different seven years apart in full adulthood. "Young Kelly" couldn't have been that young - it's only seven years, she's out of school and already seriously pursuing her career. The dynamic would have made a lot more sense in the difference in time was greater.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:28 AM
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I think you took a bit of a leap there. It's easily plausible to argue that the age difference of the characters is half what it is for the actors. But Kelly is not five years older than Palicki. Women actors don't do that, and I don't blame them. So Kelly is in her early thirties or 35, max.
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Old 04-22-2019, 09:01 AM
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Admiral Perry and Admiral Halsey? Where the hell did they come up with those names???
This has to be a whoosh... right?


But yeah, on the whole episode, I kind of thought 7 years was a bit close in time for a pair of mature adults to have significantly changed. I mean, if we were talking 18 vs. 25 or 24 vs. 31, then we'd be on to something. There's usually at least one, if not two major life changes somewhere in there for most people.

I guess the point was that the divorce was that major life change, but they were trying to make it sound like there was all this massive personality change for them over that period, and that's not as realistic. I mean, it's unlikely that a career-focused military person at say... 32 wouldn't have been acutely aware of being viewed as irresponsible, and would have kept everything more in check than they implied she did.

I think it would have been better had they acknowledged that Kelly of 7 years ago was NOT significantly different, save for the divorce, and that Ed would be attracted to her for all the same reasons he was in the first place. And have Ed realize that it's not really a do-over like he was thinking- HE's the one who's changed, not her.
  #1305  
Old 04-22-2019, 09:05 AM
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Not enough Bortus
Too much Bortus!
  #1306  
Old 04-22-2019, 09:37 AM
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Too much Bortus!
Checking with a micrometer, I find precisely the right amount of Bortus...
  #1307  
Old 04-22-2019, 09:53 AM
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The thing about Ed dating Lt Kelly:

There's no mutual discovery. Say they start to become involved, and Kelly says, "let me tell you about this time in my life that was very important." And Ed already knows the whole story. He's met the people involved. He's visited the location. He has the commemorative T shirt.

It's not going to take too much of that before young Kelly gets annoyed.

And from Ed's POV: Is he going to tell her all his secrets, again? Is he going to teach her how to cross one eye, again? The whole idea sounds good in theory: let's redo our relationship again, but not make the same mistakes. But in practice it won't work.

Let alone what Cmdr Kelly is going to think watching it. "well, it must be about time he told me/tells her about his father." With Ed on one side with his prescience, and the Commander on the other "Did he tell you about his High School yet?", poor Lt Kelly is going to run screaming.

No wonder she turned him down in "the past". Even if her memories were erased, the echoes through time were still there.
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:52 AM
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Beyond that - Ed now remembers all the little things that the younger couple did that he is no longer interested in or can't do - like the binge drinking. She still expects to do these things.
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:54 AM
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The thing about Ed dating Lt Kelly:

There's no mutual discovery. Say they start to become involved, and Kelly says, "let me tell you about this time in my life that was very important." And Ed already knows the whole story. He's met the people involved. He's visited the location. He has the commemorative T shirt.

It's not going to take too much of that before young Kelly gets annoyed.

And from Ed's POV: Is he going to tell her all his secrets, again? Is he going to teach her how to cross one eye, again? The whole idea sounds good in theory: let's redo our relationship again, but not make the same mistakes. But in practice it won't work.
Reminds me of a novel by Ken Grimwood (Replay - highly recommended). The main character is transported back into his 18 year old body (he's 43) - attempts to recreate his first meeting with the woman who would have become his wife do not go well.
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:09 PM
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I think you took a bit of a leap there. It's easily plausible to argue that the age difference of the characters is half what it is for the actors. But Kelly is not five years older than Palicki. Women actors don't do that, and I don't blame them. So Kelly is in her early thirties or 35, max.
Seven years is still not a huge difference, and in the future one gets the sense people live longer; it'd just make a little more sense if the spread was longer.

It worked though. Thematically the concept was clear, and it makes sense. We are different people at different ages.
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Old 04-22-2019, 12:22 PM
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Reminds me of a novel by Ken Grimwood (Replay - highly recommended). The main character is transported back into his 18 year old body (he's 43) - attempts to recreate his first meeting with the woman who would have become his wife do not go well.
I love Replay.

but then on the next go around, didn't he woo her in the manner of the times, and marry her and have the "2.5 kids and yard with picket fence" life?

That's what really worked about that book that The Orville only lightly touched. You CAN try all the different variations. (Just the end was unsatisfying).

It also evokes Groundhog Day, how Phil keeps "perfecting" his one-day date with Rita.

I also appreciated how time travel in the Orville universe works according to my favorite unified theory. That reality is controlled by thought. That minds are really the ultimate power in the universe. If you want something bad enough, it does happen. The trick is, knowing how to "want it" the right way. (it's always the details!)

For example, Q doesn't use the power of his mind to physically reshape the entire universe. He's not "moving things with his mind", as it were. No, he alters quantum probabilities, and the universe does all the heavy lifting. Change a single tiny thing, a single sign from minus to plus, a bit from one to zero, and the whole universe adjusts accordingly. Changing the bit is the "skill" that Q has that humans don't, but knowing which bit to alter is what gives Q his power.

It's also why Marty McFly disappears slowly - because he hasn't altered enough probabilities at that point to make the change exact.

And that's what the time travel experiment in The Orville did. Just like Dr. Crusher in the static warp bubble, Kelly's mind made time travel happen. The machine that Isaac and co. were working on was just the tool.

Last edited by Just Asking Questions; 04-22-2019 at 12:24 PM.
  #1312  
Old 04-22-2019, 12:24 PM
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I love Replay.

but then on the next go around, didn't he woo her in the manner of the times, and marry her and have the "2.5 kids and yard with picket fence" life?
I don't think so. His later loops started less far in the past, so eventually, he was in a loop that started after he was already married, though.
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Old 04-22-2019, 02:02 PM
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A pretty good episode, I thought, although it went over pretty familiar ST ground.

Why the shorter opening credits?

Did they do anything to the actress to make her seem younger other than using a wig (which I kinda liked, BTW) and slightly rosier makeup? A couple of times I thought they might have done some CGI de-aging, but I couldn't be sure.

Hiding in the planet's ring ice was a pretty cool (no pun intended) gambit.

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It's reminded me of the made-for-TV movie Assault on the Wayne, where Soviet agents infiltrate an attack sub in order to steam ABM technology....
Did they iron it, too?

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Can I just say how tickled I was to see Bortus and Klyden tearing it up at the dance club?....
Yes!!!

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I liked Ed's reference to fans arguing about time travel. Loosely, "I'd rather eat glass than argue time travel logic!"....
"My advice in making sense of temporal paradoxes is simple: don't even try." - Capt. Kathryn Janeway, USS Voyager

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Present Kelly thinks it's a bad idea for the captain and XO to have a relationship. Lt. Kelly has no official position on the ship - she's essentially a passenger, not in the chain of command. Now if she were actually assigned to the ship, that would be a problem - but that didn't happen yet....
And did you notice how Ed pitched dating Lt. Kelly to her older self? Not "Would you mind if...." but "If you don't think there's any chance of you and me getting back together, then...." Not cool, dude.

I'm surprised the most obvious argument against a captain dating a subordinate on a starship hasn't been made. Would Ed ever feel able to order Kelly on a dangerous mission if they became lovers again?

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Reminds me of a novel by Ken Grimwood (Replay - highly recommended). The main character is transported back into his 18 year old body (he's 43) - attempts to recreate his first meeting with the woman who would have become his wife do not go well.
I love Replay, too! I remember how badly he botched his "first" meeting. Dumbass.
  #1314  
Old 04-22-2019, 02:42 PM
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KNot cool, dude.

I'm surprised the most obvious argument against a captain dating a subordinate on a starship hasn't been made. Would Ed ever feel able to order Kelly on a dangerous mission if they became lovers again?
Would Ed ever feel able to order Kelly on a dangerous mission if he hoped they could get back together?
  #1315  
Old 04-22-2019, 02:45 PM
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Did they do anything to the actress to make her seem younger other than using a wig (which I kinda liked, BTW) and slightly rosier makeup? A couple of times I thought they might have done some CGI de-aging, but I couldn't be sure.
Looked to me like the added a little bulk to her face. Baby fat. It seems like women's faces become more angular as they age. Not sure if they did it make-up or post.
  #1316  
Old 04-22-2019, 06:39 PM
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Seven years is still not a huge difference

The award-winning "UP" series is based on watching people age at seven-year increments. I have watched all of them, and I'd say there is a noticeable difference between 28 and 35.


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It also evokes Groundhog Day, how Phil keeps "perfecting" his one-day date with Rita.

Of course, in doing so he

SPOILER:
overperfects it and turns her off.
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  #1317  
Old 04-22-2019, 10:46 PM
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I'm surprised the most obvious argument against a captain dating a subordinate on a starship hasn't been made. Would Ed ever feel able to order Kelly on a dangerous mission if they became lovers again?
Pretty sure Kelly made it when Ed started pushing her on the subject. I wish I could remember the episode that was in - she was pretty direct about it, from memory.
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Old 04-22-2019, 11:15 PM
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Am I the only one that was a little creeped out by this episode?

That seemed like a major violation of trust on Ed's part.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:02 AM
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Yeah. Ed is telling her, "Well, if *YOU* won't get back into a relationship with me, I'll do it with the younger you."

So he gets what he wants against what she wants -- a weird form of sorta-rape.

Rather like if Kelley had something happen to her that gave her amnesia about the events of the past seven years, and he swooped in to court her even though he knows she wouldn't have accepted it if she wasn't handicapped by the lack of memories.

Yeah, yeah, Kelley 2 started to become her own person, they would have grown more and more separate as they had differing experiences if they continued to exist at the same time. I still thought it was a pretty skeevy thing to do.
  #1320  
Old 04-23-2019, 10:26 AM
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That's not at all what he was going for, and I don't think we're meant to interpret it that way.

What Ed was saying is "Look, I'm not rushing into dating her. I have reservations. I'm in love with you - the mature, older you that exists right now. You know that's what I most want. I'm not just jumping at the chance of a younger, more naive version of you that I can easily manipulate knowing what I do. So I want to give you first crack at it. If you'll be with me, I won't even be interested in pursuing her. But if you won't, well, then dating her would be the next best thing. She's the closest thing to being back together with you that I can get, so I'll take that if that's the best option I have"

That may have its own ethical problems, but he's not just trying to manipulate and force the older Kelly's hand. At least not in the sinister way you portray it.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 04-23-2019 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:40 AM
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...That may have its own ethical problems, but he's not just trying to manipulate and force the older Kelly's hand. At least not in the sinister way you portray it.
Not sinister, but certainly manipulative. He shouldn't have phrased it as he did, saying that, one way or another, he was going to try to woo a Kelly.
  #1322  
Old 04-23-2019, 10:41 AM
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That's not at all what he was going for, and I don't think we're meant to interpret it that way.

What Ed was saying is "Look, I'm not rushing into dating her. I have reservations. I'm in love with you - the mature, older you that exists right now. You know that's what I most want. I'm not just jumping at the chance of a younger, more naive version of you that I can easily manipulate knowing what I do. So I want to give you first crack at it. If you'll be with me, I won't even be interested in pursuing her. But if you won't, well, then dating her would be the next best thing. She's the closest thing to being back together with you that I can get, so I'll take that if that's the best option I have"

That may have its own ethical problems, but he's not just trying to manipulate and force the older Kelly's hand. At least not in the sinister way you portray it.


I think the closest analogy is, if I can’t date you, then I’ll date your younger sister.
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Old 04-23-2019, 10:58 AM
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I don't think that analogy works. Young Kelly it's the same person young Ed feel in love with. It's not as simple as her being a more naive psuedo-replacement.

This situation it's so unlike anything any of us have had to deal with that any simple analogy is going to be deeply flawed.

This is one of the great things about Sci-fi. We can explore truly new ideas that aren't just a slightly different version of things we're familiar with.

Last edited by SenorBeef; 04-23-2019 at 10:58 AM.
  #1324  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:39 AM
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so, in our new universe, will Capt. Grayson be in command of the Wilbur? With Admiral Ed in charge of the fleet?
  #1325  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:40 AM
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This is one of the great things about Sci-fi. We can explore truly new ideas that aren't just a slightly different version of things we're familiar with.
That's why I think TNG's Second Chances is a similarly good episode. Especially in the question of choices "If I had gotten off the planet, I would have met you on Risa!" "but you did get off the planet, and you didn't!" In almost no other situation could a person see the exact result of a different "choice".

Since both Rikers are identical, whatever choice each individually made, it IS the choice. And if Kelly-in-the-past never dates Ed again (assuming that she did in fact have her memories wiped) then that, too, is "the choice she would have made." It by definition can't be a false choice.

And we shall see come Thursday if the show opens with Kelly in Command of the Orville and Ed is an admiral, or something.

eta: Ninja'd!

Last edited by Just Asking Questions; 04-23-2019 at 11:44 AM. Reason: Post above was not there when I wrote mine. Admiral Ed. ADMIRAL!
  #1326  
Old 04-23-2019, 11:50 AM
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Or possibly - Kelly is a Captain, and Ed is still struggling along as an Lt Commander or something. Like the TNG episode where Picard never gets stabbed, and his career never takes off. His marriage to Kelly inspired his drive to succeed, even though the marriage itself was destroyed by it.
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Old 04-23-2019, 12:02 PM
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Or possibly - Kelly is a Captain, and Ed is still struggling along as an Lt Commander or something. Like the TNG episode where Picard never gets stabbed, and his career never takes off. His marriage to Kelly inspired his drive to succeed, even though the marriage itself was destroyed by it.
Excellent point!
  #1328  
Old 04-23-2019, 12:57 PM
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Excellent point!
Except that his career was then destroyed by the divorce. He only got to Captain the Orville this time because Kelly intervened with Daddy Admiral.

So, its entirely possible that being dumped early on by Kelly puts Ed on an even brighter path and Kelly is no longer held back (not sure how she was held back in the first round, except that she chose to join Ed iniitially and then stayed on because they were a good team).

Last edited by simster; 04-23-2019 at 01:00 PM.
  #1329  
Old 04-23-2019, 02:55 PM
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I would love it so much if the timeline was randomly corrected by a toddler and talking dog that spontaneously appear on a disc thingy.
  #1330  
Old 04-23-2019, 04:51 PM
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Yes, and maybe Dr. Finn can end up as chief surgeon at St. Eligius.
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Old 04-23-2019, 05:18 PM
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Well, we all know that this "show" is all just a fantasy/novel of an overworked, underappreciated 1940s science fiction writer.
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Old 04-23-2019, 09:53 PM
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All of you have it wrong. The final scene shows Ed with a toothbrush mustache and Kelly as Eva Braun.
  #1333  
Old 04-24-2019, 06:35 AM
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Logically, the next episode should have Kelly as the commander and Ed as her second-in-command. And at the end, Ed leaves the series, either by getting a promotion to commander or by dying. I could imagine Macfarlane wanting to cut back.
Someone else already mentioned this down-thread, but I don't see this logic.

Ed was apparently a fast-tracked, rising star until his divorce ruined him. And while the marriage may have given him a boost of some sort, one of the reasons for the divorce was his spending too much time on his career. So, not spending two years or so as an emotional wreck would probably see him farther along, not held back.

Whether Kelly would have made captain already is harder to say - we don't know how the divorce affected her. AIUI, her infidelity in the modern armed services would be a black mark, but we don't know how the Union feels about that. It doesn't seem with in her character to have subordinated her career to Ed's, but it's possible that desires for posting keeping them somewhat close together may have led to more opportunities for Ed then her.
  #1334  
Old 04-24-2019, 09:06 AM
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Are we certain this is the same universe? Maybe it is a new timeline, and then, with her additional knowledge about what's going to happen, Past Kelly will be in a position to return and help the old timeline's Orville against the Kaylon.
  #1335  
Old 04-24-2019, 10:08 AM
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Are we certain this is the same universe? Maybe it is a new timeline, and then, with her additional knowledge about what's going to happen, Past Kelly will be in a position to return and help the old timeline's Orville against the Kaylon.
I think they could have a LOT of fun with their own version of the Star-Trek mirror universe- maybe this Kelly will be part of that?
  #1336  
Old 04-24-2019, 12:01 PM
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Thing is foreknowledge of the Kaylons’ plans might not have helped. Events worked out to get the Krill to join in but going to them with a story of someone who has been to the future might not accomplish that. The alternate timeline may have an earlier conflict that ends badly for the Union.
  #1337  
Old 04-24-2019, 12:17 PM
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Thing is foreknowledge of the Kaylons’ plans might not have helped. Events worked out to get the Krill to join in but going to them with a story of someone who has been to the future might not accomplish that. The alternate timeline may have an earlier conflict that ends badly for the Union.
Are you suggesting that the mind wipe didn't work?
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Old 04-24-2019, 12:27 PM
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Thing is foreknowledge of the Kaylons’ plans might not have helped. Events worked out to get the Krill to join in but going to them with a story of someone who has been to the future might not accomplish that. The alternate timeline may have an earlier conflict that ends badly for the Union.
Foreknowledge of Isaac's duplicitous role would be very helpful. Being able to shore up defenses from the Moclans would be helpful, etc.
  #1339  
Old 04-24-2019, 12:54 PM
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Are you suggesting that the mind wipe didn't work?
In Dendarii Dame’s supposition anyway.

I’m not sure though. Maybe the mindwipe worked for declarative (episodic) memory but the emotional impact is still there?

Different path Ed might be a successful but arrogant asshole high ranking officer never have been so humbled. What would Kelly’s path be without the guilt of the affair?

Back to a post earlier about Q’s power. Even a small change can lead to hugely different results in chaotic systems ... or is there a basin that different paths all lead to?

Sinister,

I’m not sure is all.

Capture Issac early and trigger war early is not necessarily a successful path. A successful path without getting the Krill to align is hard to imagine and it was only because they experienced the Kaylon ship in their space, its power and intent, for themselves, that they aligned ... a path from foreknowledge might not have that.

Moclan weapons alone shored up or not are no match for Kaylon weaponry.
  #1340  
Old 04-24-2019, 02:30 PM
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Did I see young Kelly on the preview?
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Old 04-24-2019, 02:44 PM
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Did I see young Kelly on the preview?
SPOILER:
I did anyway. And I think it is called “The Path Not Taken” ...
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Old 04-24-2019, 03:14 PM
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Are you suggesting that the mind wipe didn't work?
I'm guessing either that, or maybe it was one of those butterfly wings things, where Kelly's acceptance of a second date with Ed was one of those things that could have gone either way, and by putting young Kelly back in her time and giving her a re-do, the coin flipped the other way in her mind.

(actually I suspect this would be the case; having it not work would be kind of lame)
  #1343  
Old 04-24-2019, 04:59 PM
simster is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
I'm guessing either that, or maybe it was one of those butterfly wings things, where Kelly's acceptance of a second date with Ed was one of those things that could have gone either way, and by putting young Kelly back in her time and giving her a re-do, the coin flipped the other way in her mind.

(actually I suspect this would be the case; having it not work would be kind of lame)
I am hoping it didn't work - at all - and Kelly starts using her knowledge of future events to her favor. (yes, she secreted a copy of 'Biff's guidelines for timetravel')
  #1344  
Old 04-24-2019, 05:58 PM
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I am hoping it didn't work - at all - and Kelly starts using her knowledge of future events to her favor. (yes, she secreted a copy of 'Biff's guidelines for timetravel')
But, then what?

Thursday's show starts, and the credits are different, and then Kelly's in command of the Orville, and Gordon's not there, and no Xelayans (either one), no Isaac, and Ed is...somewhere. Admiral maybe. Or homeless bum. or married to that blue guy. And no one remembers the old way. But there's no Guinan to "feel" something is different, that something isn't as it should be.

And the show goes on, and we start to wonder how it will be reset, and then the episode ends, and nothing is "fixed". This is the new reality forever. And then next season we just move on and have the new, less wacky adventures of Capt Grayson of the Orville.

Or the Kaylons attack and kill every last human, Moclan, Krill. The end.

Last edited by Just Asking Questions; 04-24-2019 at 06:00 PM.
  #1345  
Old 04-24-2019, 06:35 PM
Andy L is offline
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Originally Posted by simster View Post
Foreknowledge of Isaac's duplicitous role would be very helpful. Being able to shore up defenses from the Moclans would be helpful, etc.
Though having Isaac be seduced by the human lifestyle turned out to be more useful for the Union than almost any foreknowledge might be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Just Asking Questions View Post
But, then what?

Thursday's show starts, and the credits are different, and then Kelly's in command of the Orville, and Gordon's not there, and no Xelayans (either one), no Isaac, and Ed is...somewhere. Admiral maybe. Or homeless bum. or married to that blue guy. And no one remembers the old way. But there's no Guinan to "feel" something is different, that something isn't as it should be.

And the show goes on, and we start to wonder how it will be reset, and then the episode ends, and nothing is "fixed". This is the new reality forever. And then next season we just move on and have the new, less wacky adventures of Capt Grayson of the Orville.
That would be fun.

P.S. When Lt Kelly was talking about how disappointing CDR Kelly's life was, I was hoping the CDR would say "Hey, I was worshiped as a God by an entire planet for several centuries. How do you like me know?"
  #1346  
Old 04-24-2019, 07:19 PM
carnivorousplant is offline
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In an Orville, Darkly.


Yes! Yes!
  #1347  
Old 04-25-2019, 12:53 PM
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Agreed. I was struck by how this episode showed how Ed had grown since the first season. His explanation of why he and Kelly got divorced would have been very different in the early part of the first season.
In that scene yes, but in the scene where he gave Cmdr Kelly his ultimatum, ("if there's no chance with us, I'm going with her") he was remarkably: a) immature, b) unprofessional, c) irresponsible, and d) dick-ish

He didn't even respect the friendship that they'd built enough to ask if she would be ok with it. Or to ask her advice as a friend as to whether it would be a good idea or not. He just assumed that since Lt. Kelly was willing, he'd go for it.

I liked the episode quite a bit, but Ed came off really horribly in that scene.
  #1348  
Old 04-25-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by gonzoron View Post
In that scene yes, but in the scene where he gave Cmdr Kelly his ultimatum, ("if there's no chance with us, I'm going with her") he was remarkably: a) immature, b) unprofessional, c) irresponsible, and d) dick-ish

He didn't even respect the friendship that they'd built enough to ask if she would be ok with it. Or to ask her advice as a friend as to whether it would be a good idea or not. He just assumed that since Lt. Kelly was willing, he'd go for it.

I liked the episode quite a bit, but Ed came off really horribly in that scene.
Agreed.
  #1349  
Old 04-25-2019, 01:53 PM
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So, we may be hours away from the final episode of the series. Wow.
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  #1350  
Old 04-25-2019, 02:13 PM
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So, we may be hours away from the final episode of the series. Wow.
Tonight is the season finale?

Googling around, it seems they got a California tax credit, so they might get a 3rd season even without ratings.
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