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Old 06-26-2018, 10:39 PM
DoctorJ DoctorJ is offline
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Illegal immigration from the demand side (aka Zero Tolerance for Employers)

Out of the 11-12 million undocumented immigrants in the US, about 8 million of them work. The overwhelming majority of those who cross the border illegally are not here fleeing violence and oppression, or to plant anchor welfare babies and rape our women, but to do shitty jobs and make money. More to the point, they're here because a whole lot of people are willing to employ them.

I could be wrong (and it's one of the reasons I'm starting this discussion), but I don't feel like I read much about employers of undocumented immigrants getting in trouble. And it seems like it couldn't possibly be that hard to find them if we really wanted to.

So it seems to me that we're aiming the zero tolerance policy at the wrong people, and we could slow illegal border crossings to a trickle in six months if we really wanted to. Just allow a 60-day grace period and then declare that anyone caught employing someone in the country illegally pays hefty fines AND does federal time. Pay an undocumented worker to mow your grass or watch your kids? Three months and $10K. Restaurant employs undocumented dishwashers? Owner does a year and pays $100K. Giant grove full of undocumented workers picking avocados? Owner does five years and pays millions. Ignorance is no excuse. Being fooled by good forgeries is no excuse. Zero tolerance means zero tolerance. Crack down early and make some examples all along the spectrum.

OK, so I know why we don't do this. Whole sectors of our economy would probably collapse. The Republican leaders who want us to believe that illegal Latinx immigration is a serious and imminent threat to our nation are full of shit--they just want to create an "other" that they can promise to protect us from, and they SURE as hell don't want to put a bunch of white tobacco farm owners and contractors in prison.

Could Democrats make an issue of the fact that Republicans won't pursue this fairly obvious solution to their problem? Or would the Republicans call their bluff?
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:01 PM
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Don't rural areas where the farm workers work tend to trend Republican? Any idea what percentage of these illegals are employed by Republicans?
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Old 06-26-2018, 11:06 PM
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Going to jail for not using E-Verify before getting my grass cut by some random guy, who the hell would support that? For the record I've always enjoyed cutting my own grass*
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:08 AM
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Well, it's also a terrible idea that would punish a lot of innocent people. I think most illegal workers are working with fraudulent documents that show them to be eligible for employment (and it's illegal to scrutinize documents all that much). Even e-Verify lets a significant number through.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 06-27-2018 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:09 AM
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I think we need to issue National ID cards to every citizen and legal resident that uses biometric data to create a tamper proof way of establishing everyone's identity. In order to obtain employment in the US, you must have a national ID card.
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Old 06-27-2018, 06:18 AM
Ruken Ruken is offline
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Punishing people who make a good faith effort to comply with the law? No thanks.

We could required expended use of e-verify. I don't know if that would have to be state by state or if congress could mandate it.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:34 AM
D_Odds D_Odds is offline
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The ripple effect on the economy would be horrendous. It would start with agriculture and radiate out from there. Crops would root in fields, food prices would rise as farmers adjust wages to try to get anybody to do the work (and if I weren't posting from my phone, I'd bring cites of the difficulties of finding workers even when increasing wages), and soon these inflationary pressures are affecting the economy as a whole. The rhetoric on the "dangers" of undocumented workers is so wrong, and many congresspeople know it. But it gets votes and motivates people, as long as they promise to do something but never really do. Someone is messing with that formula.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:17 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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We could required expended use of e-verify. I don't know if that would have to be state by state or if congress could mandate it.
It would be messy either way. California bans municipalities from using E-Verify, and Illinois used to ban it but now forbids employers from using it before hiring an employee (cite). An employer can also be sued for discrimination for being too aggressive in requiring documentation before hiring, like insisting on a green card.
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I think we need to issue National ID cards to every citizen and legal resident that uses biometric data to create a tamper proof way of establishing everyone's identity. In order to obtain employment in the US, you must have a national ID card.
Considering the hollering over voter ID, I suspect this one is going to be even less popular, at least with Democrats.

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Old 06-27-2018, 08:21 AM
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Democrats don't like requiring ID for voting. Republicans like requiring IDs, but are opposed to people actually having them.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:25 AM
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I think we need to issue National ID cards to every citizen and legal resident that uses biometric data to create a tamper proof way of establishing everyone's identity. In order to obtain employment in the US, you must have a national ID card.
I disagree. What we need to do is get over our shit, accept that non-citizens who may or may not be undocumented are gonna be doing the shitty jobs that none of us want to do, and move on with our lives.
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:26 AM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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Considering the hollering over voter ID, I suspect this one is going to be even less popular, at least with Democrats.
You think only Democrats would have a problem with a national ID card? You don't think that evangelical Republicans (often also the ones yelling loudest about building the wall) will be quoting Revelation when they hear about this idea?
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Old 06-27-2018, 08:31 AM
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My experience in this regard, with my apologies to those who are sick of hearing it, was:
1) get a graduate degree in the US,
2) get a job as a research lab tech/lab manager for a Pharma company, under the automatic work permit which came with the degree,
3) need to renew work permit,
4) be told that my lawyer and the company have decided it's "best for all parties concerned" if I do not renew the permit and simply overstay my permit and visa, therefore the company will not provide a letter I need as proof of employment,
5) call la migra asking what can I do, will a letter from my direct manager be ok?
6) be called a "stupid fucking Hispanic whore",
7) say "gee whiz, am I glad to be from a developed country whose economy has lately been getting better!",
8) go back home.

I realize I'm biased, but I do think some law enforcement or alternatives to "letter my employer refuses to give me" instead of #6 would have been nice.

Last edited by Nava; 06-27-2018 at 08:33 AM.
  #13  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:37 AM
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Whack-a-Mole Whack-a-Mole is offline
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You think only Democrats would have a problem with a national ID card? You don't think that evangelical Republicans (often also the ones yelling loudest about building the wall) will be quoting Revelation when they hear about this idea?
People freak out over a national ID card which is weird because we already have one...our Social Security card.

Yeah, it was never meant for that but it gets used that way all the time. Thing is it sucks as a national ID and is dangerous to use that way but since people freak out over a national ID card everyone uses the one national ID we all have.

CGP Grey did a good video on this. Worth a watch.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 06-27-2018 at 08:38 AM.
  #14  
Old 06-27-2018, 08:55 AM
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You think only Democrats would have a problem with a national ID card? You don't think that evangelical Republicans (often also the ones yelling loudest about building the wall) will be quoting Revelation when they hear about this idea?
Yeah, they’d be scared that the next time a Dem is in office, they’ll be rounded up and stacked like cordwood in abandoned Walmarts interconnected by a network of secret 500+ mile long tunnels. ( I remember trying to explain to a CT friend of mine the extreme technical improbability of digging a continuous 500 mile tunnel ( all that dirt has to be moved somewhere ), but his response was “how else can you explain the shutting down of all those Walmarts in Texas?” My head exploded.

Seriously, I’d like to see a way to hook up these arriving refugees with job opportunities in agriculture and food processing and give them work visas if they are hired. But the Republicans still maintain the fiction that there are native born Americans that want these jobs. My personal anecdotal survey shows that:

1. I do not know a single Republican that has every harvested crops or worked in a food processing plant.

2. I do not know a single Republican that has ever applied for a job harvesting crops or working in a food processing plant.

3. I do not know a single Republican that has ever been turned down for a job in favor of an immigrant worker.

4. I do know Republicans that think their lazy friends or neighbors on SSDI would work harvesting crops or processing food if their benefits were cut off. These are often Republicans that are collecting SSDI themselves.

5. I know LOTS of Republicans that get tweaked whenever they hear someone speaking Spanish in public. Usually because they think these random Hispanics are talking about them. Or could get away with talking about them. It’s a culture of paranoia.

So, because of 5, my idea will not gain traction. We’ll see how far that $8 a week tax cut goes when an apple costs $6.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 06-27-2018 at 08:56 AM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:06 AM
Babale Babale is offline
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I know, I know; the plural of anecdote does NOT equal data. However....

I am quite familiar with the construction business, where the bottom rung of employees is full of undocumented or recently immigrated day laborers working for a couple hundred dollars a day on a day by day basis. I also know that the one thing contractors most look for in these employees is the ability to speak English. You don't need construction experience. Many of the guys getting hired don't have construction experience. You need to be able to listen to instructions and carry them out, ideally eagerly and quickly. Remember, we aren't talking about skilled laborers installing drywall -- we are talking about an extra set of hands. Believe it or not, there is a huge demand for that.

I've had a number of friends over the last few years who have at some point become unemployed or who worked a minimum wage part time job, barely supporting themselves. I let them know about this opportunity. It's physical labor, to be sure, but for $200 to $250 a day (here in Southern California) in cash, that's a much better return than they get waiting tables. But they just. Won't. Do it. I've even got some of them in touch with people in the business. People who said to them, "come work as my assistant for a few months, after this you'll be able to lay tile or do drywall yourself and can take your own jobs". And without exception every American native I've offered this to turned me down. It's too hard, the hours are long, they'd rather make $5 an hour plus tips waiting tables in an air conditioned restaurant than doing the jobs that migrants are "stealing" from them. So no, we don't need to get rid of immigrants. We need to encourage them. Because the jobs they do, we won't.
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Old 06-27-2018, 09:07 AM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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You think only Democrats would have a problem with a national ID card? You don't think that evangelical Republicans (often also the ones yelling loudest about building the wall) will be quoting Revelation when they hear about this idea?
People freak out over a national ID card which is weird because we already have one...our Social Security card.
Blalron suggested a real, biometrics-based national ID card, which is much more than a Social Security card. (And actually, I haven't had a physical Social Security card in a couple of decades and have never needed it.) For an example of a biometrics-based national ID card in use at a much larger scale, look at what the world's biggest democracy set up. I can see some advantages to such a thing but I also recognize the privacy concerns. (One fun aspect of the Indian system; you can check when government employees arrived at and left from the office.)

Last edited by Jonathan Chance; 06-27-2018 at 09:58 AM. Reason: fixed typo
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Old 06-27-2018, 03:39 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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How much would the pay need to be, for those jobs to be palatable in the free market? $50 an hour?
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:11 PM
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Eh.

Last edited by Gatopescado; 06-27-2018 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:22 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Punishing people who make a good faith effort to comply with the law? No thanks.
Interested in changing the laws around underage drinking, then?

Personally, I've had a lot of ideas like OP's, and have come to the same conclusions: It's the racism, stupid! Or, Law-and-order is only immutable when applied to people other than our White, White voting bloc.
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Old 06-27-2018, 04:25 PM
Derleth Derleth is offline
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Considering the hollering over voter ID, I suspect this one is going to be even less popular, at least with Democrats.
The Democrats would only have a problem with it if the Republicans succeeded in making it impossible for the poor and the non-White to obtain.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:03 PM
Ruken Ruken is offline
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Interested in changing the laws around underage drinking, then?
Like if someone presents a high quality fake ID? Sure.
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Old 06-27-2018, 05:09 PM
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I disagree. What we need to do is get over our shit, accept that non-citizens who may or may not be undocumented are gonna be doing the shitty jobs that none of us want to do, and move on with our lives.
Heck, just legalize it the whole stupid thing. You've already got an underpaid working class and enough people who seem to like it that way, so just create a guest-worker program exempt from minimum wage laws and stop wasting time and resources on enforcement.
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:01 AM
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Look, it's easier than it sounds from a technical level. No fancy biometric Id cards needed. No card at all.

There would be an app. And employers would just have to get a smartphone or borrow one.

They would have to enter : the approximate work hours and location of their new hire. Take a photo of his or her face. Enter the SSN and his claimed name.

There is one SSN per living citizen for the most part.

If two people get registered through the app and the 2 different employers list a person working a long distance away during the same hours and their faces are dissimilar.

Then it's just a matter of scheduling an Ins agent to visit and make the arrest.
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:07 AM
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Yes, there are a small number of SSNs floating around that belong to someone deceased that haven't been marked as dead.

A larger number of them that go to people who aren't in the labor pool.

So the proposed system wouldn't be perfect, but a few more checks (check the claimed name, check the approximate age and gender. That is, the employer would enter in what they think the new hire's real age and gender might be, or a machine learning system would guess it from photos within +- 10 years) would close most of the gaps.

Even then, it doesn't have to be perfect. If 9 of the estimate 10 million illegal workers were found and deported it would still be a huge change.

Or not deported. Since the government could have done something like this decades ago, I think it's a basic failure of the federal government to enforce the rules. They let all these people in by not doing anything meaningful to stop employers hiring them. So I think these people should have the right to stay, they should just seal the system against more newcomers.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:42 AM
Dewey Finn Dewey Finn is offline
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Look, it's easier than it sounds from a technical level. No fancy biometric Id cards needed. No card at all.

There would be an app. And employers would just have to get a smartphone or borrow one.
Not an app, but there is a website.
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Old 07-02-2018, 08:05 AM
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And without exception every American native I've offered this to turned me down. It's too hard, the hours are long, they'd rather make $5 an hour plus tips waiting tables in an air conditioned restaurant than doing the jobs that migrants are "stealing" from them.
I am actual, native-born American who did take a job as "an extra set of hands" in the construction industry a number of years ago. So there are a few of us willing to do this. You are correct, though, there aren't many of us. The fact so many American are out of shape doesn't help, although working such a job can make you more fit and healthy in the long run.

On a couple occasions while doing such work (including working on landscape around a building) I got comments along the lines of "why are you doing this? You aren't Mexican." but that just show how entrenched the practices and biases in that area are.
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Old 07-02-2018, 07:20 PM
Hari Seldon Hari Seldon is offline
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In Canada the essentially universal ID is your medicare card. True, some temporary residents can get one, but I assume they expire when their residency permit expires. It is not biometric, but has a photo. The same photo that appears on your driver's licence if you have one.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:12 PM
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Strict residency requirements for workers never made much sense. But both parties have been pushing variations on punishing aliens, punishing employers, & "securing the border" for so long they've come to believe their own press. They think this is what they have to do.

Remember "containment"? How it led to an unwinnable war in Vietnam and atrocities in Cambodia? Once again we refuse to get off the ride to hell.

This fear-mongering about aliens will lead to a race war and the eventual loss of the Southwest. The end is visible now. I think there's one way it will end up, and it will mean the liberation of whatever we're calling occupied Mexico. But there are decades of hell before we get there.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:09 PM
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Punishing people who make a good faith effort to comply with the law? No thanks.

We could required expended use of e-verify. I don't know if that would have to be state by state or if congress could mandate it.
DO they actually make an effort to follow the law, though?

I thought one of the reasons that illegal immigrants were so in demand is that many (not all) employers exploited the fact that they could get away with breaking various labor laws. (Minimum wage was a big one, also various working conditions, etc)

Aren't a great many of them exploited? (I'm genuinely asking this)
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Old 07-12-2018, 05:54 AM
Ruken Ruken is offline
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DO they actually make an effort to follow the law, though?
Many aren't, but if whatever someone is doing is good enough to trick the feds and pass e-verify, I don't want someone punished for following the rules. The OP is proposing they be punished anyway.
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Old 07-12-2018, 07:50 AM
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Aren't a great many of them exploited? (I'm genuinely asking this)
Define "exploit"? They're coming here looking for work for a decade before going back to Mexico to retire and let the next generation take care of them. They're getting jobs in the fields that they expected to get before leaving Mexico and they're making the sort of money that they were expecting to receive.

It would be just as easy to make the argument that they're exploiting us, since we work our asses off until we're 70 and spend a lot of it stressed out and in debt for school and housing and cars. In Mexico, no school, you work for ten years, and when you get back you're largely done for life so long as you make enough babies to support yourself.

I always found it somewhat face-palmy during the Bush administration when people would say that the US couldn't gain local sympathy in the Middle East so long as we were torturing people and it's like, wait, you think that all of the dictators and terrorists over there aren't torturing people? Of all things that they hate the US for, I'm pretty sure that's only ever raised by any of them in order to use our own media against us not because there's actually a huge amount of hatred of brutal tactics in the region.

But you'll note that nobody ever pointed out how silly the US media was for trying to raise that argument, and that's because most Americans have no external view of life in other countries and other cultures. Looking at Mexico and viewing the people who come from there as doomed migrants with no prospects beyond those that we give them is silly. You may as well say that a hunky young man who tries to suckle up to a rich old woman, to make her his sugarmama, is being exploited by her because well...how else is he to live?

If you give a stray cat food, but you don't give it a new home, are you exploiting it? I mean, sure, you have the option to have given it a home instead, but it's not your cat and fundamentally you're not obligated to take care of it. And it's not like if you don't take care of the cat that it's going to die. It will just hunt or get food from somewhere else.

Mexico is a poor place to live. A significant number of people don't get a full education. A lot of people live without plumbing or electricity, nor floors. If your skin is too dark, your ability to ever get anywhere in life is going to be severely reduced. But at the same time, Mexico is not the 3rd circle of Hell and not having plumbing doesn't actually make people die miserable and regretting their life. It's quite possible that your average Mexican ends up having a higher life satisfaction rating than your average American because the way the human brain works is non-logical.

If we believe that the life that Mexicans live is unacceptable and immoral to allow, then the answer would be to unilaterally annex Mexico as the 51st state and start establishing good infrastructure, proper schools, etc. No? If it's unacceptable for people to live and work there, then how is it moral to only look after the ones who come here to work? Why are we allowing them to leave and go back to Mexico?

Or, alternately, if we believe that Mexico is a real country with people who are free to stay or emigrate as they will, based on their personal life goals, then saying that we're somehow "bad" for forcing Mexican citizens and their children to live in Mexico, go to Mexican schools, and work for Mexican businesses doesn't make sense. Again, if somehow we do believe that Mexico is 3rd circle of Hell, then the right answer isn't ensuring minimum wage for illegal workers, it's to invade and occupy the country just to the South of us, so that we can save all these people from the horror of life in Mexico.

The Mexicans have a system that they're happy with, using the wealth disparity between the US and Mexico, to effectively retire young and make a lot of babies. We have a system that we're happy with, to leave dull and labor-intense jobs to Mexicans, so that we can work in front of a computer with the A/C blazing. There are issues with this arrangement, but exploitation is not really one of them. Everyone's coming into it with eyes wide open, no one is going starving or being thrown into a pit with lions, and people on both sides are retiring happy with grandchildren to bounce on their knees.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-12-2018 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 07-17-2018, 12:34 PM
CBEscapee CBEscapee is offline
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Define "exploit"? They're coming here looking for work for a decade before going back to Mexico to retire and let the next generation take care of them. They're getting jobs in the fields that they expected to get before leaving Mexico and they're making the sort of money that they were expecting to receive.

It would be just as easy to make the argument that they're exploiting us, since we work our asses off until we're 70 and spend a lot of it stressed out and in debt for school and housing and cars. In Mexico, no school, you work for ten years, and when you get back you're largely done for life so long as you make enough babies to support yourself.

I always found it somewhat face-palmy during the Bush administration when people would say that the US couldn't gain local sympathy in the Middle East so long as we were torturing people and it's like, wait, you think that all of the dictators and terrorists over there aren't torturing people? Of all things that they hate the US for, I'm pretty sure that's only ever raised by any of them in order to use our own media against us not because there's actually a huge amount of hatred of brutal tactics in the region.

But you'll note that nobody ever pointed out how silly the US media was for trying to raise that argument, and that's because most Americans have no external view of life in other countries and other cultures. Looking at Mexico and viewing the people who come from there as doomed migrants with no prospects beyond those that we give them is silly. You may as well say that a hunky young man who tries to suckle up to a rich old woman, to make her his sugarmama, is being exploited by her because well...how else is he to live?

If you give a stray cat food, but you don't give it a new home, are you exploiting it? I mean, sure, you have the option to have given it a home instead, but it's not your cat and fundamentally you're not obligated to take care of it. And it's not like if you don't take care of the cat that it's going to die. It will just hunt or get food from somewhere else.

Mexico is a poor place to live. A significant number of people don't get a full education. A lot of people live without plumbing or electricity, nor floors. If your skin is too dark, your ability to ever get anywhere in life is going to be severely reduced. But at the same time, Mexico is not the 3rd circle of Hell and not having plumbing doesn't actually make people die miserable and regretting their life. It's quite possible that your average Mexican ends up having a higher life satisfaction rating than your average American because the way the human brain works is non-logical.

If we believe that the life that Mexicans live is unacceptable and immoral to allow, then the answer would be to unilaterally annex Mexico as the 51st state and start establishing good infrastructure, proper schools, etc. No? If it's unacceptable for people to live and work there, then how is it moral to only look after the ones who come here to work? Why are we allowing them to leave and go back to Mexico?

Or, alternately, if we believe that Mexico is a real country with people who are free to stay or emigrate as they will, based on their personal life goals, then saying that we're somehow "bad" for forcing Mexican citizens and their children to live in Mexico, go to Mexican schools, and work for Mexican businesses doesn't make sense. Again, if somehow we do believe that Mexico is 3rd circle of Hell, then the right answer isn't ensuring minimum wage for illegal workers, it's to invade and occupy the country just to the South of us, so that we can save all these people from the horror of life in Mexico.

The Mexicans have a system that they're happy with, using the wealth disparity between the US and Mexico, to effectively retire young and make a lot of babies. We have a system that we're happy with, to leave dull and labor-intense jobs to Mexicans, so that we can work in front of a computer with the A/C blazing. There are issues with this arrangement, but exploitation is not really one of them. Everyone's coming into it with eyes wide open, no one is going starving or being thrown into a pit with lions, and people on both sides are retiring happy with grandchildren to bounce on their knees.
This post shows incredible ignorance not only of México but of the life of migrant workers in your country. People do not return here after working in the US and retire and make babies! That is ridiculous. Where did you come up with something so absurd? That sounds fantastic! I wish I had known a long time ago I would have gone to the US 50 years ago and have been retired 40 years.

And please spare me the American "saviour" attitude. I'd say the way things are going for your country you need to worry more about your future than ours. We're starting to think the infamous wall might not be such a bad idea.
  #33  
Old 07-17-2018, 02:26 PM
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Sometimes it's not that farm employers hire folks from Mexico to exploit them. I have a relative who earned their living growing strawberries in SoCal. I remember being surprised when watching her do her payroll when I saw that many of the paychecks were larger than mine, and I was a graphic artist working the printing trades. No white Americans ever sought employment to pick strawberries. Not even one. I asked.

I doubt many American citizens are just pining to get back to their first love - itinerant farm labor, so no one is stealing any American jobs.

All of this uproar is pure political theater. I guess everyone needs someone to look down upon. I still have a nephew down there who likes to complain that the Mexicans are taking all the jobs - never mind that he's creeping up on 60 and probably hasn't held an actual job for more than 10 years in his entire life.
  #34  
Old 07-17-2018, 02:40 PM
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I knew a guy who would both rant about how we need to crack down on illegals as they're destroying the country, and also griped about how the undocumented workers he hired in his restaurant were always causing him problems. It would be hilarious if there wasn't so much economic and personal damage from the political theater about immigration.
  #35  
Old 07-17-2018, 03:28 PM
CelticKnot CelticKnot is offline
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Yeah, they’d be scared that the next time a Dem is in office, they’ll be rounded up and stacked like cordwood in abandoned Walmarts interconnected by a network of secret 500+ mile long tunnels. ( I remember trying to explain to a CT friend of mine the extreme technical improbability of digging a continuous 500 mile tunnel ( all that dirt has to be moved somewhere ), but his response was “how else can you explain the shutting down of all those Walmarts in Texas?” My head exploded.

Seriously, I’d like to see a way to hook up these arriving refugees with job opportunities in agriculture and food processing and give them work visas if they are hired. But the Republicans still maintain the fiction that there are native born Americans that want these jobs. My personal anecdotal survey shows that:

1. I do not know a single Republican that has every harvested crops or worked in a food processing plant.

2. I do not know a single Republican that has ever applied for a job harvesting crops or working in a food processing plant.

3. I do not know a single Republican that has ever been turned down for a job in favor of an immigrant worker.

4. I do know Republicans that think their lazy friends or neighbors on SSDI would work harvesting crops or processing food if their benefits were cut off. These are often Republicans that are collecting SSDI themselves.

5. I know LOTS of Republicans that get tweaked whenever they hear someone speaking Spanish in public. Usually because they think these random Hispanics are talking about them. Or could get away with talking about them. It’s a culture of paranoia.

So, because of 5, my idea will not gain traction. We’ll see how far that $8 a week tax cut goes when an apple costs $6.
Concerning #1: I can only assume you've never met a farmer.
Concerning #2, (and probably #3): My husband applied to a pork-processing plant. He was never called, despite the constant radio ads and billboards telling us they need workers. There are many illegal and legal immigrants here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Democrats don't like requiring ID for voting. Republicans like requiring IDs, but are opposed to people actually having them.
Got a cite for that? There's a difference between voter ID laws and biometric IDs.

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Originally Posted by D_Odds View Post
The ripple effect on the economy would be horrendous. It would start with agriculture and radiate out from there. Crops would root in fields, food prices would rise as farmers adjust wages to try to get anybody to do the work (and if I weren't posting from my phone, I'd bring cites of the difficulties of finding workers even when increasing wages), and soon these inflationary pressures are affecting the economy as a whole. The rhetoric on the "dangers" of undocumented workers is so wrong, and many congresspeople know it. But it gets votes and motivates people, as long as they promise to do something but never really do. Someone is messing with that formula.
Can you cite this now? Can you tell us where to find it? Because without it, someone might think you are fear-mongering.

Don't target the employers. Target the money. If there were no benefits given to non-citizens, the nation would be in better shape financially. No proof of citizenship? No SNAP. No Section 8. No welfare. And tax the bejeebers out of remittances. If people could not send so much money back home, it would stay here and be used in our economy. And fewer people would come here if the risks outweighed the benefits.
  #36  
Old 07-17-2018, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by CBEscapee View Post
This post shows incredible ignorance not only of México but of the life of migrant workers in your country. People do not return here after working in the US and retire and make babies! That is ridiculous. Where did you come up with something so absurd? That sounds fantastic! I wish I had known a long time ago I would have gone to the US 50 years ago and have been retired 40 years.
Most of my family has Mexican passports from living there for 20 years and I've spent years of my life there. And yes, it was hyperbole that Mexicans retire after moving back. I believed that was implicit.

Quote:
And please spare me the American "saviour" attitude. I'd say the way things are going for your country you need to worry more about your future than ours. We're starting to think the infamous wall might not be such a bad idea.
I'm pretty sure that my point was the Americans aren't saving anyone, though I should have done a better job of emphasizing that, for the most part, Mexico is just some country with cars and schools and factories, etc.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 07-17-2018 at 04:56 PM.
  #37  
Old 07-17-2018, 06:36 PM
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Wait, wait, wait... You want to hold wealthy white businessmen responsible for breaking the law? Pffft, LOL, that’s never going to happen.

No sane lawmaker is going to actually punish American capitalists when they could be blaming their problems on impoverished foreigners.

Last edited by JB99; 07-17-2018 at 06:39 PM.
  #38  
Old 07-17-2018, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by CelticKnot View Post
Don't target the employers. Target the money. If there were no benefits given to non-citizens, the nation would be in better shape financially. No proof of citizenship? No SNAP. No Section 8. No welfare. And tax the bejeebers out of remittances. If people could not send so much money back home, it would stay here and be used in our economy. And fewer people would come here if the risks outweighed the benefits.
How much of the $98.6 Billion of the 2017 USDA's 15 food and nutrition assistance programs went to illegal immigrants?
  #39  
Old 07-17-2018, 07:50 PM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is offline
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Originally Posted by CelticKnot View Post
Don't target the employers. Target the money. If there were no benefits given to non-citizens, the nation would be in better shape financially. No proof of citizenship? No SNAP. No Section 8. No welfare. And tax the bejeebers out of remittances. If people could not send so much money back home, it would stay here and be used in our economy. And fewer people would come here if the risks outweighed the benefits.
Targeting the employers is simply the efficient and accurate way to target the money. Employers are the ones providing the money. The employer's payroll is the ultimate source of the problem - unless you count the problems inside of Mexico, and US politicians are not going to fix Mexico. If immigrants taking jobs is a problem, then anyone willing to hire on insufficient documentation is actually CREATING the problem, not just making it worse or something. People would not look for jobs unless they knew there was a good chance of getting them.
  #40  
Old 07-20-2018, 02:12 PM
CBEscapee CBEscapee is offline
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Originally Posted by Sage Rat View Post
Most of my family has Mexican passports from living there for 20 years and I've spent years of my life there. And yes, it was hyperbole that Mexicans retire after moving back. I believed that was implicit.


I'm pretty sure that my point was the Americans aren't saving anyone, though I should have done a better job of emphasizing that, for the most part, Mexico is just some country with cars and schools and factories, etc.
I wasn't aware that living here gave someone citizenship in our country. There are many thousands of foreigners living here. But they are not citizens.
  #41  
Old 07-20-2018, 10:25 PM
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I wasn't aware that living here gave someone citizenship in our country. There are many thousands of foreigners living here. But they are not citizens.
They applied. Not sure why.
  #42  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:14 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Punishing people who make a good faith effort to comply with the law? No thanks.
A "good faith effort" like this employer made?

Targeting large businesses and industries that benefit from exploiting cheap undocumented immigrant labor with frequent raids like this would surely go a long way towards solving the problem, while boosting wages for those workers in the country legally. Workplace safety would probably improve too (it's easier for employers to cut corners when their workers are afraid to complain for fear that immigration agents will get involved).

But there's no more political support for such a plan than there is to conduct frequent raids on recycling businesses/junkyards that knowingly buy metals stolen from homes, businesses and construction sites.
  #43  
Old 07-23-2018, 06:28 PM
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I disagree. What we need to do is get over our shit, accept that non-citizens who may or may not be undocumented are gonna be doing the shitty jobs that none of us want to do, and move on with our lives.
None of us want to do at the price that employers are currently offering. There is a difference.
  #44  
Old 07-23-2018, 07:16 PM
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It would be messy either way. California bans municipalities from using E-Verify, and Illinois used to ban it but now forbids employers from using it before hiring an employee (cite). An employer can also be sued for discrimination for being too aggressive in requiring documentation before hiring, like insisting on a green card.
An employer shouldn't try to run the I-9 until after the job has been offered and the applicant has accepted. And when processing an I-9 an employer cannot demand a new hire provide a specific piece of documentation. The feds have a list of documents acceptable for I-9 purposes and if the new employee brings them to me I have to accept it so long as it meets the specifications from USCIS.

I've had employees try to bring me copies of their Social Security card, novelty metal Social Security cards they insisted were valid (they aren't), copies of birth certificates, etc., etc. that weren't up to snuff and I never had any problems telling them their documents were unacceptable and to go get something valid. If an employee doesn't get their I-9 documentation to me within three days of their official date of hire they can be terminated. I haven't had that happen yet though.
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  #45  
Old 07-24-2018, 08:53 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Out of the 11-12 million undocumented immigrants in the US, about 8 million of them work. The overwhelming majority of those who cross the border illegally are not here fleeing violence and oppression, or to plant anchor welfare babies and rape our women, but to do shitty jobs and make money. More to the point, they're here because a whole lot of people are willing to employ them.

I could be wrong (and it's one of the reasons I'm starting this discussion), but I don't feel like I read much about employers of undocumented immigrants getting in trouble. And it seems like it couldn't possibly be that hard to find them if we really wanted to.

Ok, you see, all they have to do is show their had plausible deniability. That they saw a SSN, etc.

And of course the real reason behind all this talk about Illegals is that they are brown-skinned and thus it is based upon xenophobia and racism.

The business owners are Ok, since they are usually white, but in any case Americans.
  #46  
Old 07-24-2018, 08:58 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Blalron View Post
I think we need to issue National ID cards to every citizen and legal resident that uses biometric data to create a tamper proof way of establishing everyone's identity. In order to obtain employment in the US, you must have a national ID card.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ7hkQee9_4

We fought two World wars in order that no jackbooted thug can order us "Your papers please!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzhIPvEanMg
  #47  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:00 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Ruken View Post
Punishing people who make a good faith effort to comply with the law? No thanks.

We could required expended use of e-verify. I don't know if that would have to be state by state or if congress could mandate it.
E-verify is unreliable.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi.../#50c8ec95a539
  #48  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:00 PM
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manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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None of us want to do at the price that employers are currently offering. There is a difference.
Here is a good article about that. Even with an increase in wages and benefits, they can't find workers.
  #49  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:01 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Democrats don't like requiring ID for voting. Republicans like requiring IDs, but are opposed to people actually having them.
Not quite- Republicans like requiring minorities to have IDs, since they are more likely to vote Democratic. It's Jim Crow.
  #50  
Old 07-24-2018, 09:07 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
DO they actually make an effort to follow the law, though?

I thought one of the reasons that illegal immigrants were so in demand is that many (not all) employers exploited the fact that they could get away with breaking various labor laws. (Minimum wage was a big one, also various working conditions, etc)

Aren't a great many of them exploited? (I'm genuinely asking this)
Employers no longer pay them under the table or less than minimum wage. See, they arent so afraid of the INS, but they are (justifiably) afraid of the IRS. One complaint they are paying under the table, and the IRS is on them, and the iRS is not nice about Employment tax violations.

Also, if the INS does come calling, and they find you are paying the Illegals less, then that is proof you knew they were illegal. So, employers want plausible deniability.
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