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  #1  
Old 09-14-2019, 09:28 PM
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New sexual assault allegation against Justice Kavanaugh


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/s...il&login=email (paywall)

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...ett-kavanaugh/

Quote:
We also uncovered a previously unreported story about Mr. Kavanaugh in his freshman year that echoes Ms. Ramirezís allegation. A classmate, Max Stier, saw Mr. Kavanaugh with his pants down at a different drunken dorm party, where friends pushed his penis into the hand of a female student. Mr. Stier, who runs a nonprofit organization in Washington, notified senators and the F.B.I. about this account, but the F.B.I. did not investigate and Mr. Stier has declined to discuss it publicly. (We corroborated the story with two officials who have communicated with Mr. Stier.)
Is this a surprise to anyone? Still okay with him on the SCOTUS?
  #2  
Old 09-14-2019, 09:33 PM
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Further:

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Ms. Ramirez’s legal team gave the F.B.I. a list of at least 25 individuals who may have had corroborating evidence. But the bureau — in its supplemental background investigation — interviewed none of them, though we learned many of these potential witnesses tried in vain to reach the F.B.I. on their own.
There wasn't a serious investigation before. The GOP Senators valued protecting their nominee over determining whether or not he might have been an abuser of women. That should be obvious to anyone paying attention who isn't blinded by partisan goggles.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-14-2019 at 09:35 PM.
  #3  
Old 09-14-2019, 09:35 PM
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He's got his lifetime appointment. There is no way that anyone who supported his nomination is going to change their mind.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:36 PM
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Off to the Pit from Elections.

[/moderating]
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:38 PM
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He's got his lifetime appointment. There is no way that anyone who supported his nomination is going to change their mind.
Here's a way -- more investigations, resulting in more victims coming forward. Who knows how many women and girls he abused, and are staying silent because of how horribly the other accusers have been treated, and how listless our government is in preventing the elevation of abusers? If there are more and more -- handfuls, dozens, etc. -- I think there's a decent chance he'd resign.

But it's more important than just politics -- it's about striking terror into the hearts of abusers everywhere. Abusers of women and girls should be terrified, and every decent public official should make terrorizing abusers one of the highest priorities.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Further:
There wasn't a serious investigation before. The GOP Senators valued protecting their nominee over determining whether or not he might have been an abuser of women. That should be obvious to anyone paying attention who isn't blinded by partisan goggles.
Question: is this the FBI's job? Let's suppose that they determined that, due to the length of time and the unreliable testimony of the witnesses and statutes of limitations, that a successful prosecution was basically impossible. (not to mention it's really hard to prosecute a judge who's also a lawyer who's also well connected who also has means)

So anything the FBI discovered was not going to lead to a prosecution, merely call into question the character of judge Kavanaugh. Is this then an appropriate use of FBI resources?

(and note I'm not defending him. Most likely he basically did what he's accused of...like many other men of that era...)

Last edited by SamuelA; 09-14-2019 at 09:39 PM.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:41 PM
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Question: is this the FBI's job? Let's suppose that they determined that, due to the length of time and the unreliable testimony of the witnesses and statutes of limitations, that a successful prosecution was basically impossible. (not to mention it's really hard to prosecute a judge who's also a lawyer who's also well connected who also has means)

So anything the FBI discovered was not going to lead to a prosecution, merely call into question the character of judge Kavanaugh. Is this then an appropriate use of FBI resources?

(and note I'm not defending him. Most likely he basically did what he's accused of...like many other men of that era...)
That was certainly within their purview, which was to provide information to the Senate that would be useful in determining whether he should be elevated to the SCOTUS.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:41 PM
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Off to the Pit from Elections.

[/moderating]
I decided to move this after the tone of the 2nd post, but then I see that was edited. I think this can live in Elections so I'll move it back. Nothing to see here.

[/moderating]
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:43 PM
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I decided to move this after the tone of the 2nd post, but then I see that was edited. I think this can live in Elections so I'll move it back. Nothing to see here.

[/moderating]
Thank you!
  #10  
Old 09-14-2019, 10:22 PM
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This does not surprise me at all but for what it's worth I don't think this accusation will go any further than the others. Kavanaugh, like Trump, has reached a position where he is immune to prosecution because of the perception that it is politically motivated. It would not matter if there was video of him doing it, bragging that he was doing it and citing a law textbook for the exact statute he was breaking in that moment. His party will simply dismiss it as partisan fake news and will demonize Bill Clinton in response.

The real justice may be long in coming but Kavanaugh will have to face it eventually. He has two daughters. Because of the world we live in, those daughters will at some point in their lives end up in a situation where a man is demanding something sexual of them that they are not prepared to give. And they will go back to their dad thinking that he will get justice for them... And Brett Kavanaugh will have to look at someone who raped his daughter and he'll have to check their political affiliation to see if that person is an up and coming Republican. And if the answer to that question is yes, he's going to have to tell his own daughter to stop being a slut because look what you made the decent, honest man do to you and look at how you almost ruined his career with your whoring. While I expect the blatant hypocrisy to cause him no more than a moment of dismay, his daughters will hopefully realize what a scumbag their father is and will appropriately disown him.
  #11  
Old 09-14-2019, 10:33 PM
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It's too late. Not that it would be actionable when it happened, nor if it happened today. And yes, he is on the Court now.

Am I okay with him on the Supreme Court? If one of my senators, Dianne Feinstien, had not sat on an allegation she had heard, we would hopefully have someone better in his place.

Fellow California voters, still okay with DiFi in the Senate?

The lesson you should be spouting is "Report criminal action ASAP!", not years later, and definitely not repeating the meme that victims should be "terrified" to report.
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Old 09-14-2019, 11:04 PM
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He doesn't belong on the Supreme Court anyway. He doesn't have the intellect, he's a political hack who was appointed as a judge as a reward for aiding Ken Starr in his Clinton fiasco.
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Old 09-14-2019, 11:55 PM
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Not surprised. Agree he's a partisan hack. I have zero confidence he will ever suffer any consequences.
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Old 09-15-2019, 01:52 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/14/s...il&login=email (paywall)

https://lawandcrime.com/high-profile...ett-kavanaugh/



Is this a surprise to anyone? Still okay with him on the SCOTUS?
Your title calls it a "sexual assault allegation". The article you quote calls it just a "story", and it's not clear to me, even if the story were true, whether Kavanaugh's role is that of an assaulter or a victim.

Yes, I'm still good with him on SCOTUS.

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  #15  
Old 09-15-2019, 03:00 AM
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Some guys pushed his penis into some ladyís face and.....thatís on him?
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Old 09-15-2019, 03:14 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Your title calls it a "sexual assault allegation". The article you quote calls it just a "story", and it's not clear to me, even if the story were true, whether Kavanaugh's role is that of an assaulter or a victim.

Yes, I'm still good with him on SCOTUS.
First sentence of the article iiandyiiii quoted:

Quote:
A brand new sexual misconduct allegation has been leveled against Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.
(Bolding mine, of course.)

An allegation inevitably includes an account of the incident--in other words, the story--on which the allegation is based.
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Old 09-15-2019, 03:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nelliebly View Post
First sentence of the article iiandyiiii quoted:

(Bolding mine, of course.)

An allegation inevitably includes an account of the incident--in other words, the story--on which the allegation is based.
He decided his viewpoint just after reading the R.

That is the only letter that matters in the story. Of course he didn't read anything else. He might find out stuff he doesn't like.

The people who support Trump because of the judges will go to amazing lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance when they suspect those are scum as well.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:18 AM
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Yes, I'm still good with him on SCOTUS.
My question is really aimed at people who actually think sexual assault and rape are terrible things that society should be heavily focused on fighting, not those who have repeatedly and gleefully defended accused and admitted sexual abusers.
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Old 09-15-2019, 06:26 AM
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Yeah, not gonna lie, if I start a thread wondering, "should we be bothered that a presidential candidate probably killed a dude", I'm not super interested in hearing the opinion of the head of the Ted Bundy fan club.

Anyways, as is the typical pattern, the message here is simple: believe women. Take these accusations seriously. Do not ignore them because the evidence isn't strong enough for a criminal conviction. Now this guy is essentially above the law in his position, so there's little to no action that can be taken.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 09-15-2019 at 06:27 AM.
  #20  
Old 09-15-2019, 08:46 AM
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Some guys pushed his penis into some ladyís face and.....thatís on him?
It's exactly the nightmare scenario we guys have been warning about, right? You're at a party with your pants around your ankles, you and your exposed penis innocently minding your own business, and then out of the blue you get accused of improper behavior...
  #21  
Old 09-15-2019, 09:40 AM
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It's exactly the nightmare scenario we guys have been warning about, right? You're at a party with your pants around your ankles, you and your exposed penis innocently minding your own business, and then out of the blue you get accused of improper behavior...
Kavanaugh: I was the victim of sexual assault!
Cop: Oh yeah? What were you wearing?
Kavanaugh: Uhhhhh.....
  #22  
Old 09-15-2019, 09:41 AM
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The real justice may be long in coming but Kavanaugh will have to face it eventually. He has two daughters.
Oh, man. When your justice fantasy involves a woman getting raped, that's fucked up.
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:58 AM
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... Anyways, as is the typical pattern, the message here is simple: believe women. Take these accusations seriously. Do not ignore them because the evidence isn't strong enough for a criminal conviction. Now this guy is essentially above the law in his position, so there's little to no action that can be taken.
What woman? This story isn't even being told by a woman, it's being told by a man. If the purported victim comes forward, we can examine the evidence she presents then, but even that much hasn't happened in this case. We've got a rumor from some guy without any corroboration or evidence, and only the vaguest description of what happened.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 09-15-2019 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:05 AM
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What woman? This story isn't even being told by a woman, it's being told by a man. If the purported victim comes forward, we can examine the evidence . . .
What?

It's being reported by two women (in the NYT). And the "purported" victim did come forward, as did 25 other witnesses, although the evidence was hardly examined. What exactly is your point?

Last edited by KarlGauss; 09-15-2019 at 10:06 AM.
  #25  
Old 09-15-2019, 10:43 AM
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Some guys pushed his penis into some ladyís face and.....thatís on him?
A gentleman does not have his penis out where it might be pushed into the face of a lady.

Is it surprising that a confessed sexual predator would nominate another serial sexual predator to the Supreme Court? Is it surprising that Republicans would turn a blind eye to old evidence and new evidence as long as they get someone on the Supreme Court to let them gut regulations and who believes that embryos deserve protection under the law but schoolchildren should fear being gunned down? Is it surprising that the FBI under a lawless Department of Justice should fail to investigate credible claims of sexual assault? Not to anyone who's been awake for the past 2 1/2 years.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:25 PM
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They had no problem overlooking corroborated evidence that Bret Kavanaugh sexually assaulted women last week. They'll have no problem overlooking corroborated evidence that Bret Kavanaugh sexually assaulted women next week.

They had no problem overlooking obvious lies told by Bret Kavanaugh in his confirmation hearing last week. They'll have no problem overlooking obvious lies told by Bret Kavanaugh in his confirmation hearing next week.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:31 PM
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What?

It's being reported by two women (in the NYT). And the "purported" victim did come forward, as did 25 other witnesses, although the evidence was hardly examined. What exactly is your point?
You're talking about Deborah "can't-be-sure-it-was-Kavanaugh" Ramirez, not the story being told by Max Stier?
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:42 PM
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You're talking about Deborah "can't-be-sure-it-was-Kavanaugh" Ramirez, not the story being told by Max Stier?
The story being told by Max Stier appears in the 9th paragraph of a NYT article about Kavanaugh's sexual assault of Deborah Ramirez. It's weird that you're focusing on that.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:46 PM
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The story being told by Max Stier appears in the 9th paragraph of a NYT article about Kavanaugh's sexual assault of Deborah Ramirez. It's weird that you're focusing on that.
It's the story quoted in the OP. Why is it weird that I'm focusing on that?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 09-15-2019 at 12:46 PM.
  #30  
Old 09-15-2019, 12:50 PM
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My question is really aimed at people who actually think sexual assault and rape are terrible things that society should be heavily focused on fighting, not those who have repeatedly and gleefully defended accused and admitted sexual abusers.
Your OP asked "Still okay with him on the SCOTUS?" That's presumably a question directed at people who were originally "okay with him on the SCOTUS", and not the crowd that never was.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:53 PM
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He decided his viewpoint just after reading the R.

That is the only letter that matters in the story. Of course he didn't read anything else. He might find out stuff he doesn't like.

The people who support Trump because of the judges will go to amazing lengths to avoid cognitive dissonance when they suspect those are scum as well.
Spot on except that I don't think they get as far as suspecting anybody they've supported is scum. That cognitive dissonance is pretty powerful stuff.
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:59 PM
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Spot on except that I don't think they get as far as suspecting anybody they've supported is scum. That cognitive dissonance is pretty powerful stuff.
I'm not sure if it's even that. I suspect many of these folks just really value angering Democrats and liberals far more than they value fighting sexual assault and rape. Whether or not Kavanaugh actually sexually abused someone is far, far less important to many of them than his politics.
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Old 09-15-2019, 01:10 PM
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Some guys pushed his penis into some ladyís face and.....thatís on him?
This is a whoosh, right?
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Old 09-15-2019, 01:20 PM
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Your OP asked "Still okay with him on the SCOTUS?" That's presumably a question directed at people who were originally "okay with him on the SCOTUS", and not the crowd that never was.
Can someone who was not "okay with him" but resigned to him and moved along opine?

It does nothing to change my assessment. I believed he was an out of control young adult whose bad things crossed into sexual assault as part of bad entitled crowd of punks then, and who lied about it during his confirmation hearing, that there was no appropriate investigation, that the D side mishandled it as well, and that his politics and qualifications as an adult jurist were not what I would have wanted, but that battle was lost, move along.

Further evidence consistent with his young adult bad, even criminal behavior, consistent with the lack of an adequate investigation, changes none of that. I am unapologetically partisan and revisiting a round my side lost (we wuz robbed!) is not an at all effective approach to winning the next round IMHO.

And partisans of the other side will fail to see this further evidence as any proof. Any expectations that anyone would change their minds or positions based on this are I believe very foolish.
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Old 09-15-2019, 01:27 PM
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Spot on except that I don't think they get as far as suspecting anybody they've supported is scum. That cognitive dissonance is pretty powerful stuff.
It stems from the need to be seen as a Good Person. Waterboarding can't be torture because Good People don't support torture. There are no concentration camps in the US because Good People wouldn't support concentration camps; the camps must be some other kind of camp.

I don't know why they don't just come out and say "Kavanaugh is a scumbag but he'll make decisions I like so I support him anyway. All I care about is getting my way, I don't care who gives it to me."
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:18 PM
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... I don't know why they don't just come out and say "Kavanaugh is a scumbag but he'll make decisions I like so I support him anyway. All I care about is getting my way, I don't care who gives it to me."
Perhaps it's because some people don't think he's a "scumbag".
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:20 PM
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Can someone who was not "okay with him" but resigned to him and moved along opine? ...
Certainly. I just think it's contradictory to say, in effect, "those of you who used to support Justice Kavanaugh, do you still?" and then turn around and say you didn't want to hear from those who supported him.
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:27 PM
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Certainly. I just think it's contradictory to say, in effect, "those of you who used to support Justice Kavanaugh, do you still?" and then turn around and say you didn't want to hear from those who supported him.
That would indeed be contradictory, but that's not what I said.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-15-2019 at 02:27 PM.
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:36 PM
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This is a whoosh, right?
I was wondering when youíd show up on the bandwagon!

  #40  
Old 09-15-2019, 02:37 PM
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Certainly. I just think it's contradictory to say, in effect, "those of you who used to support Justice Kavanaugh, do you still?" and then turn around and say you didn't want to hear from those who supported him.
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That would indeed be contradictory, but that's not what I said.
Hmm, let me turn on my mind reading powers, also known as reading powers.
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Still okay with him on the SCOTUS?
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Yes, I'm still good with him on SCOTUS.
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
My question is really aimed at people who actually think sexual assault and rape are terrible things that society should be heavily focused on fighting, not those who have repeatedly and gleefully defended accused and admitted sexual abusers.

Last edited by CarnalK; 09-15-2019 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:39 PM
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Hmm, let me turn on my mind reading powers, also known as reading powers.
What? Care to connect the dots for me? I described a very specific "flavor" of person I wasn't particularly interested in hearing from (highly specific, in fact -- much more specific than just "those who supported Kavanaugh"). I never said I wasn't interested in hearing from anyone who supported Kavanaugh.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 09-15-2019 at 02:41 PM.
  #42  
Old 09-15-2019, 02:40 PM
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HurricaneDitka, is it so important to you that America become a dictatorship? Because that's the only actual policy that Kavanaugh holds, it's the reason he was chosen for his position, and it's the basis on which he's going to make his decisions as a judge.
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:45 PM
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What? Care to connect the dots for me? I described a very specific "flavor" of person I wasn't particularly interested in hearing from (highly specific, in fact -- much more specific than just "those who supported Kavanaugh"). I never said I wasn't interested in hearing from anyone who supported Kavanaugh.
Bullshit. As if you need the dots connected. Not going to bother trying to nail down jello again though.
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:49 PM
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Bullshit. As if you need the dots connected. Not going to bother trying to nail down jello again though.
I'm often very specific on purpose. It's because I have a very specific target in mind, and deliberately want to avoid making a general comment. If I wanted to make a general comment about Kavanaugh supporters, I would have made a general comment about them. But I made a very specific comment about a very specific subset of Kavanaugh supporters.

We've had this kind of disagreement before -- hopefully you can see this is based on a different way of relating and communicating rather than dishonesty. Best wishes to you.
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:50 PM
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HurricaneDitka, is it so important to you that America become a dictatorship? Because that's the only actual policy that Kavanaugh holds, it's the reason he was chosen for his position, and it's the basis on which he's going to make his decisions as a judge.
There's a list of silly ad hominem attacks. Do you have anything substantive to say? Any evidence to support your assertions?
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:56 PM
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Like, his statement that it should be illegal to investigate the President?
  #47  
Old 09-15-2019, 02:59 PM
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Honestly, the hard truth here is that cases like this have two victims. The innocent man who intended nothing more than to rock out with his cock out, and the wonan who never saw it coming. The friends, apparently just trying to pull a funny boner, are the real dicks here.
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Old 09-15-2019, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'm often very specific on purpose. It's because I have a very specific target in mind, and deliberately want to avoid making a general comment. If I wanted to make a general comment about Kavanaugh supporters, I would have made a general comment about them. But I made a very specific comment about a very specific subset of Kavanaugh supporters.

We've had this kind of disagreement before -- hopefully you can see this is based on a different way of relating and communicating rather than dishonesty. Best wishes to you.
We've had this disagreement before because you quite often dishonestly describe the plain words we see. You weren't specific at all in your original question and when HD answered you basically said "sorry, I meant if non-scumbags have changed their mind" and think we are all supposed to buy that you were merely clarifying your question. Like I said, that's bullshit and I'm done.
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Old 09-15-2019, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
We've had this disagreement before because you quite often dishonestly describe the plain words we see. You weren't specific at all in your original question and when HD answered you basically said "sorry, I meant if non-scumbags have changed their mind" and think we are all supposed to buy that you were merely clarifying your question. Like I said, that's bullshit and I'm done.
I wasn't specific at first, and perhaps I should have been. But why is it "dishonest" to be more specific in a later post? We're just talking here. No reason to get all upset and storm off.
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Old 09-15-2019, 03:04 PM
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Because you weren't being more specific, you were just saying "I don't want your asshole opinion, HD".
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