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  #151  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tim@T-Bonham.net View Post
Probably not.

If a citizen walking by on a public sidewalk pulls out their cellphone and starts recording you, can you demand that they stop recording you in public?

If a news reporter sees this, and reports on it in their newspaper (a commercial venture), can you demand that they don't report about you?

As far as I know, if:
1) this is happening in public, and
2) they are not interfering or obstructing the police,
then I believe that you are not able to stop them from recording, reporting, or publishing about this.
In a non police situation, I'm free to not talk or walk away if I don't like you filming you.
In a police stop situation, the general public &/or news media can't get the same close camera angle as the known-to-the-cop-&-working-with-him cameraman for Cops! or LivePD! You think a cop is going to let you walk up & stand right next to him &/or put your camera in the passenger window? Nor are you or I taking our audio feed from a mic that the cop is wearing.

In the episode that I saw, there were obviously two cameramen on the stop because you could see one running back & forth, side to side to get video of the drug dog sniffing the car. He was wearing a bulletproof vest with "Media" displayed on it & was in the area between the detainee's car & the front bumper of the police car where the driver was now out of his car & standing while being detained. You try walking in that space when there's four or five cops & a police dog & see if they don't blink.
  #152  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Tim@T-Bonham.net View Post
As far as I know, if:
1) this is happening in public, and
2) they are not interfering or obstructing the police,
then I believe that you are not able to stop them from recording, reporting, or publishing about this.
I believe the distinction is with the filming for commercial purposes.

Can you be filmed in public and put on youtube? Probably
Can you be filmed in public and be put on the news? Yes
Can you be filmed in public and you image used for commercial purposes? It depends.
  #153  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:18 PM
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While this is mostly true, it does not give the officer cause to detain someone who is not doing something illegal. He can walk along side them and talk to them, but an actual stop, no. Just because somebody was upset over it and called the police does not make the reported act RS for a stop. People call the police all the time for stuff they don't like. Doesn't make that stuff illegal.

My state added a sub-section to it's Disorderly Conduct statute specifically stating that openly carrying a firearm was not Disorderly Conduct, and a person could not be charged with DC for doing it. So when Granny Fanny Nesslerode loses her shit because someone is walking down the street exercising their right to openly carry a firearm, it doesn't make the OCer suspect just because somebody doesn't like it.
I'm having some dissonance here. So a guy walking into a bank with an AR-15 is not RAS, but a guy having a passenger in his back seat (or maybe not) is? That seems silly.

I'm all for gun rights, but when you compare the two it seems laughable that the first is fully legal, nothing to see here, but the second requires an exposure of the private contents of a vehicle.

I understand that in the second instance you have pulled over the driver for probable cause of a traffic violation, but not the passengers, nor is there RAS that the passengers are armed and dangerous, or indeed if they even exist.
  #154  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
I'm having some dissonance here. So a guy walking into a bank with an AR-15 is not RAS, but a guy having a passenger in his back seat (or maybe not) is? That seems silly.

I'm all for gun rights, but when you compare the two it seems laughable that the first is fully legal, nothing to see here, but the second requires an exposure of the private contents of a vehicle.
....
Banks can and do post signs forbidding such conduct. Thus it would not be legal.
  #155  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:36 PM
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I'm having some dissonance here. So a guy walking into a bank with an AR-15 is not RAS, but a guy having a passenger in his back seat (or maybe not) is? That seems silly.

I'm all for gun rights, but when you compare the two it seems laughable that the first is fully legal, nothing to see here, but the second requires an exposure of the private contents of a vehicle.

I understand that in the second instance you have pulled over the driver for probable cause of a traffic violation, but not the passengers, nor is there RAS that the passengers are armed and dangerous, or indeed if they even exist.

As I have discussed before, the court has ruled that during a traffic stop all occupants of the stop are seized.

This is why passengers have the right to challenge the legality of the traffic stop even though they weren’t the violator getting pulled over.

If I am seizing a car load of people I am liable for their safety during that seizure. Shouldn’t I at least know how many people are in my care during the duration of the stop?
——————————————————————————————————————————————————-

Walking into/onto private property, even that private property generally open to the public, while openly carrying a firearm, can change the dynamic of a police contact compared to just walking down a public street. There are a lot of variables that could be involved.
  #156  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:00 PM
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Banks can and do post signs forbidding such conduct. Thus it would not be legal.
Just to clarify, whether it is"legal" or not depends on the state. In my state, it is perfectly legal to walk into a bank with a gun either carried openly or concealed (with a permit, in the case of concealed). Even if the bank has a sign posted (most don't), the "offense" is not illegal, but more akin to trespassing.

Remember, the laws stipulate what is illegal, not what is customary or accepted.
  #157  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
If I am seizing a car load of people I am liable for their safety during that seizure. Shouldn’t I at least know how many people are in my care during the duration of the stop?
How would knowing that make any difference in how you handle their safety?
  #158  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Orwell View Post
Just to clarify, whether it is"legal" or not depends on the state. In my state, it is perfectly legal to walk into a bank with a gun either carried openly or concealed (with a permit, in the case of concealed). Even if the bank has a sign posted (most don't), the "offense" is not illegal, but more akin to trespassing.

Remember, the laws stipulate what is illegal, not what is customary or accepted.
Yes, and trespassing is illegal.
  #159  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:04 PM
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How would knowing that make any difference in how you handle their safety?

I have every right and duty to know how many people I have detained. If someone is hiding in the trunk and I have no reason to look, then oh well. They got one past.

And, once again ad nauseam, this kind of thing just doesn’t come up. It’s very rare that I can’t see into the back seat of a car. Back in the mid-80’s with the little 2 door hatch backs it was a bit of a pain. But not impossible from plain view from outside the vehicle.
  #160  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:11 PM
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Yes, and trespassing is illegal.
In states where signs have no force of law, someone in the business has to ask you to leave. It isn’t trespass until you refuse.

In the case of an open carrier into a bank, you’ll probably know their intent the first 5 seconds they appear. If it’s just to make a deposit they’ll probably be done and gone long before the police arrive.

The open carriers who are trouble are the sovereign citizen types. They are specifically trying to get a rise out of people and they want to sucker police officers into doing something that will give them cause to sue. They aren’t just your average person openly carrying a weapon minding their own business. They are a pain in the ass who want a reaction.
  #161  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:22 PM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
I have every right and duty to know how many people I have detained. If someone is hiding in the trunk and I have no reason to look, then oh well. They got one past.

And, once again ad nauseam, this kind of thing just doesn’t come up. It’s very rare that I can’t see into the back seat of a car. Back in the mid-80’s with the little 2 door hatch backs it was a bit of a pain. But not impossible from plain view from outside the vehicle.
But this is a separate argument than this is for [i]their[/] safety, which is what you stated.
  #162  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:03 AM
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But this is a separate argument than this is for [i]their[/] safety, which is what you stated.
It involves everyones safety. Mine and theirs. If the vehicle gets struck during the stop it's kind of nice to know how many people may be trapped inside.

Plus I can legally check to see that everyone is wearing a safety belt during a stop. How do I do that if I don't know how many people I'm dealing with?

Last edited by pkbites; 06-18-2019 at 12:08 AM.
  #163  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:09 AM
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How would knowing that make any difference in how you handle their safety?
Since we're deeply into the land of 'what ifs'... what if the officer needs to arrest the driver of the car on an outstanding warrant? I'd say that knowing there's a sleeping infant in the back seat would be pretty useful information before initiating the arrest. I'd also prefer, for everyone's safety, that the arresting officer not be surprised by the appearance of another, unknown, adult person partway through the arrest.

Frankly, the whole idea that the officer doesn't need to know how many people are in the car he just stopped, that idea is just silly.
  #164  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:14 AM
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Yes, and trespassing is illegal.
I should have elaborated. Here, it is only trespassing if the owner/manager asks you to leave and you refuse.
The signs have no power of law, and ignoring or not seeing the sign is not trespassing. It is trespassing only if you refuse to leave when directly requested.

As with nearly everything involving gun laws, the exact laws and rules vary tremendously from state to state. In some states, the "no guns" signs have power, in others (like mine) they don't.

Last edited by Orwell; 06-18-2019 at 09:16 AM.
  #165  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by pkbites View Post

If I am seizing a car load of people I am liable for their safety during that seizure. Shouldn’t I at least know how many people are in my care during the duration of the stop?
And the question on the table is: can you do that without opening the back door and searching the back seat? And if so, can you order a person to roll down a window or open the door on the pretense of ascertaining if someone is there. For example, if you could see through my tinted window enough to see if there is someone there, can you make me roll down the window to make sure or "Maybe he has a gun. I should check because officer safety."
  #166  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:49 AM
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He has a gun and handcuffs, so yes. You pretty much have to do anything he sez. That doesnt mean you can't protest.

Of course if he orders you to do anything illegal, you can & should report him, or even sue.

In this case, a possible violation of your rights, about all that would happen is the the court might throw out any evidence thus obtained. It would take a good lawyer and some $$.

ianal.
check with an attorney and now would be a good time to do it, since it hasn't happened to you--yet; but it might in the future.
  #167  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:58 PM
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I dunno...police in places like the UK somehow manage to not keep killing criminals they are after and I do not think British police are victims more often than US police.

And FTR on the list of most dangerous jobs in the US police officer ranks as #18 so, while not "safe", it is not especially dangerous either. I think they can manage ok without being so quick to "protect" themselves.

But British people don’t have a hundred million guns. And I think being a cop in the U.S. would be higher on that dangerous jobs list if they were not allowed to constantly pull all these moves (like the one that got me busted for weed: “I need to search your bag for my own protection”). But my attitude is “tough shit, find a different job if your own personal safety is paramount”.
  #168  
Old 06-20-2019, 08:06 PM
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Somewhat related question; flipping channels & one of those Cops / Live PD / etc. shows came on. If a private citizen or a TV/movie production company pulls out a camera & starts videoing me doing ____ in public they have that right but I have the right to turn & walk/drive away.
When a police officer stops me, I am not free to walk or drive away. That cameraman is then using my legal detainment to use my image in a commercial endevour which I do not agree to participate in; it is very different than the officer's body cam which is for documentation purposes. If I am pulled over by a cop on one of those shows do I have any right to demand they stop filming/not use that footage in any show?
Can anybody answer this? I know it might depend upon state law but surely there's a GQ answer for this.
  #169  
Old 06-20-2019, 09:47 PM
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Spidey, the media is not permitted to accompany police into the home during execution of a Warrant, see:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/98-83.ZO.html

It discusses police dash cam videos also. Although a general waiver may be at times asked for and signed, (media discretion), they can news broadcast any footage they take, First Amendment.

Out of home video, audio, is not restricted by Layne.

Last edited by LTU2; 06-20-2019 at 09:48 PM.
  #170  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:10 PM
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Spidey, to be more clear, the COPS show generally needs a signed waiver to air it!

The media outlet does not need permission to air it any more than a bystander streaming it live on youtube or posting it later, or selling it to a news outlet.
  #171  
Old 06-21-2019, 05:47 AM
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But British people don’t have a hundred million guns.
Neither do Americans; the number is closer to 400 million.
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