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  #51  
Old 08-10-2018, 08:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Icarus View Post
I would add that the leaders of the hazing are frequently college age, which studies have shown lack developed judgement.

Regarding workplace models of hazing, would we include the models in use in medical and law careers, where new hires are expected to put in ungodly hours, because that is "the way it is done"? While there will always be those that argue strenuously that there are very legitimate business reasons for this, it sure seems like those arguments are just self justification for hazing the newbies.
I think they are just self justification. Some sorts of stress are unavoidable. Others are just people in power being horrible because they can get away with it.
  #52  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:47 PM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is online now
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For those against hazing, I'm curious what you think of the case of Oliver Smoot. In 1958, a group of pledges to an MIT fraternity were given the task of measuring a bridge across the Charles River (leading directly to the MIT campus) using Smoot as the unit of measure. The task has become the stuff of legend; the markings on the bridge are repainted every year and Google recognizes the Smoot as a unit of length. The task was rather difficult and silly, but not harmful.
  #53  
Old 08-10-2018, 09:55 PM
a dudes thought's a dudes thought's is offline
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Hazing is demonic imo and there is no real justification for it other than some people being ignorant and demonic. I worked at a job with that hazing crap and I told those dudes to get lost.
  #54  
Old 08-10-2018, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
I think hazing is evil when it crosses the line into pain or humiliation. I've seen examples* of it that I was happy to miss out on although they were essentially harmless.

The ship that I sailed on several years ago still does a line-crossing ceremony when they cross the equator. They're a bit secretive about the details, but I get the impression it's rather like an amateur talent show for the first-time crossers. I don't think they'd take it too far.


* Well, one example, at a curling tournament. The first year I played in it, I was just too exhausted to stick around for the event that turned into the hazing. The second time, I saw it coming before it happened.
Bit of a hijack, but my father served in the Navy in the lae 40s/early 50s, and he had something in his papers that indicated some sort of "ceremony" had taken place when the ship went 'round the Cape, I think. He NEVER talked about his Navy days, and so I have wondered for years what that ceremony might have been.
  #55  
Old 08-10-2018, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by chappachula View Post
And here's an interesting data point, which surprised me:

The frats known for the most difficult, and even brutal, hazing were the most popular ones..They had huge numbers of new recruits hoping to allowed to pledge.

The frats known for minor hazing were the least popular ones, and had trouble filling their new pledge class every year.
in advance that they would be forced to go through a lot of hazing.
They seemed to enjoy it.
Why does that surprise you? It's a vehicle for artificial demand inflation.
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Originally Posted by Wikipedia
Artificial demand constitutes demand for something that, in the absence of exposure to the vehicle of creating demand, would not exist.
Difficult hazing, like highly selective recruiting, is one way to create a higher demand for something that otherwise has little utility.
  #56  
Old 08-10-2018, 11:40 PM
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Dr. Strangelove Dr. Strangelove is offline
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I oppose hazing for much more fundamental reasons.

We don't need more mechanisms to artificially boost tribalism; we need mechanisms to reduce it. Yes, team cohesion is important, but in my view that's orthogonal to tribalism. You learn to work with your teammates by understanding their individual nature and everyone's role, not by finding ways to divide people into an in-group and out-group.
  #57  
Old 08-11-2018, 02:25 AM
kopek kopek is offline
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
That sounds a lot wimpier than the Ohio State marching band, which became well known a few years ago for more than its public performances.
Well this was high school after all.

Not being able to afford a college education I attended Pitt mid 70s. Alcohol abuse we had in the band but no real hazing or even really initiation stuff. Maybe it happened but being a little more frightening than the average freshman it just didn't happen around me. The frats; another story. Some of those got epic. But Greek Life just wasn't my scene.
  #58  
Old 08-11-2018, 12:03 PM
Daylate Daylate is offline
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I went to an engineering school back in the 1950's, back in the day that there was a lot of hazing (paddling, etc.) going on in the fraternities. However, my pledge class was mostly made up of WWII veterans - I guarantee you that whatever hazing was done to that class was very mild.
  #59  
Old 08-12-2018, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Quoth ftg:

As to the meals: What makes you think they would go to waste??? The frosh could just as easily give the extra meals to other people, e.g., people who aren't mean and harassing them.
I probably didn't explain it well. If someone wanted to use their guest meals in some other way (for instance, for visiting family, which is what they were supposedly intended for), that was fine. And it was never a matter of an upperclassman saying "Hey, you, Joe, you're paying for my supper today". It was more that a group of friends were all entering the cafeteria at the same time because, being friends, they were eating together, and one of the upperclassmen would say "Hey, does anyone have any guest meals on their account?", and invariably one of the freshmen would, because they had way more than they'd normally be able to use, and so someone would volunteer.

And it's not really dividing the world into two kinds of people, because the freshmen of today are the same people who will be the upperclassmen next year. And anyone who did anything to deliberately make the scutwork harder for the freshmen would have been told by their peers that that wasn't cool, and probably made to fix it themselves.
  #60  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:17 AM
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There was a fraternity at my college that had a house with a big, enclosed courtyard. I was brother in the fraternity next door. Often, when my brothers and I hung out in the back late into the evening, we'd hear bottles breaking in the courtyard next door for hours.

The story goes that, during one particularly hard night of hazing, the brothers at said house would throw glass on the courtyard. Then, they'd order the pledges to crawl through the courtyard, picking up pieces of borken glass on their hands and knees.
  #61  
Old 08-12-2018, 10:33 AM
DavidwithanR DavidwithanR is online now
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Originally Posted by Roderick Femm View Post
DaRvid, college is fantasy land compared to any work environment you can name.
If that's true, then any work environment you can name is fantasy land compared to college. That doesn't mean either one of them is outside the real world.

Complaining that college is contrived and artificial doesn't help, because of all the work environments that are ALSO contrived and artificial. There's no special pixie dust that makes work more "real" than anything else, and it's a silly fantasy to claim that there is.

Last edited by DavidwithanR; 08-12-2018 at 10:37 AM.
  #62  
Old 08-12-2018, 11:18 AM
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I'm not a fan. I don't believe the whole camaraderie stuff.

That doesn't mean you can't have some sort of fun games you play or some sort of prank war as part of initiation. But remove it from the concept of hazing, and just make hazing itself against the rules. There should not be some sort of thing new recruits have to suffer through to get in that they then do to the new recruits next time.

A prank war is at least bidirectional. And games are games. Just make sure they don't turn into hazing, by keeping them light and fun, not "it's just a prank, bro" style. If everyone is having fun, it's fine. But hazing is about humiliation (or worse). And that's not good.

Even if I did believe hazing helped with camaraderie, I wouldn't approve, as I would see it as preying on some weird quirk of human nature. You shouldn't feel more friendly towards people who are humiliating you for their own amusement. And you really shouldn't want to do it to others.

(Excluding completely consensual kink things, of course.)

Last edited by BigT; 08-12-2018 at 11:21 AM.
  #63  
Old 08-12-2018, 11:49 AM
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The closest my school came to hazing (unless some others in the area at the time) was upperclassmen lining up the hallways to check out the incoming class on the first day. No remarks, no touching. To the newbies it was unnerving, but that's all.

The real tests of whether you belonged involved chemistry, physics, crystallography, numeric calculations, differential calculus I and algebra I. Once you passed those you were allowed to buy your first lab coat and start calling yourself a quimiquito (student or alum at Químic, that being the name of the school).

Last edited by Nava; 08-12-2018 at 11:51 AM.
  #64  
Old 08-13-2018, 09:41 AM
MarvinKitFox MarvinKitFox is offline
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What modern american educational institutions call "hazing", is almost always illegal torture.
It can sometimes inflict lasting physical injuries, and it *almost always* involves significant psychological trauma.
.
It didn't use to be like this, Hazing used to be a purely social thing whereby a new member starts with zero status, and has to earn it.
In the process learning, adapting and growing into the group that they joined.
.
Nowadays? Its purely an excuse for the perverts to practice their sadism.
  #65  
Old 08-13-2018, 10:01 AM
DesertDog DesertDog is offline
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Originally Posted by Robot Arm View Post
The ship that I sailed on several years ago still does a line-crossing ceremony when they cross the equator. They're a bit secretive about the details, but I get the impression it's rather like an amateur talent show for the first-time crossers. I don't think they'd take it too far.[/size]
Here is an animated summary of the events in a crossing line ceremony. It can be quite rough but the participants are grown and really do want to become part of the fraternity. I have no idea how many ships still do the ceremony, especially now that there are women in the crew. Perhaps they have their own ceremony apart from the mens'.

A mark of distinction the Navy makes other services do not is promotion from E-6 to E-7, P.O. First Class to Chief P.O. It is entirely voluntary but the new inductee can be 'welcomed' into the ranks of chiefdom. About a month before the promotion, he is given a journal and told to carry it on his person at all times. Any chief catching him doing any action "unbefitting a chief" makes an entry in the journal and, at the ceremony, he is brought up on these transgressions and, needless to say found guilty.

I was not privy to what the punishments were and am pretty sure they vary from ship to ship or station. My last duty station, Winter Harbor ME, one inductee was a crewman on Pueblo when it had been captured ten years before and was still a bit frail. I was told they went easier on him than usual, and that anything involving alcohol had been eliminated for a couple years in any event.
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  #66  
Old 08-13-2018, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Here is an animated summary of the events in a crossing line ceremony. It can be quite rough but the participants are grown and really do want to become part of the fraternity. I have no idea how many ships still do the ceremony, especially now that there are women in the crew. Perhaps they have their own ceremony apart from the mens'.
Just because people really "want" to become part of the fraternity, and the fraternity really wants to create a sense of scarcity by setting up some barrier, doesn't mean that such barriers aren't nasty exercises.
  #67  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:32 AM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is online now
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Here is an animated summary of the events in a crossing line ceremony. It can be quite rough but the participants are grown and really do want to become part of the fraternity. I have no idea how many ships still do the ceremony, especially now that there are women in the crew. Perhaps they have their own ceremony apart from the mens'.

A mark of distinction the Navy makes...
I wasn't in the Navy. In fact, my ship looked a bit like the one in the video. And I did cut off my hair and go swimming, but strictly for comfort.
  #68  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:42 AM
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A recently commissioned AF officer I met a few years ago was an enlisted Marine before OTS. He told us of his ceremony when he was on a ship that crossed the equator. One of the things he was supposed to do was eat an olive out of the belly button of some fat CPO. He absolutely refused, even when the Marine Full Bird Colonel was screaming in his face to just do it one time. He was a pretty good guy.
  #69  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:50 AM
ZonexandScout ZonexandScout is offline
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Some form of hazing shows up in remarkable places. For example, the BSA Order of the Arrow had an "ordeal" that new members had to undergo before being inducted as members of the lodge. Back in the 60s, this included not speaking for a period of time (usually a day) and being dropped off in a semi-remote location in the woods to sleep by yourself for the night. The food was pretty minimal during this period, too. It's rather tame stuff, but it's definitely meant to challenge new OAs and help build a bond between members. At the induction ceremony, you got to learn some secret stuff, including the handshake and an admonition that must only be whispered.

Last edited by ZonexandScout; 08-13-2018 at 11:51 AM.
  #70  
Old 08-13-2018, 11:53 AM
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I find that when I join a group where the people are nice to me, I bond just fine.
  #71  
Old 08-13-2018, 05:33 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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I'm reading Keith Hernandez's semi-autobiography (he was a star with the Cardinals and Mets in the 1970s-80s).

In talking about his reception by veterans when he was in the minors and as a major league rookie, he mentions players and staff who went out of their way to help him and give him advice. On the other hand there were people like Bob Gibson who was offended that a rookie would dare go to the trainer's room to get first aid for his blister, and yelled at Hernandez to get out.

I'm not sure how this sort of thing results in bonding, not to mention a better team. It's gone on for a long time in pro sports and the overriding theme consistently seems to be ugly human nature.

One of the worst examples involved hazing of a young Ty Cobb by many of his Detroit Tigers teammates. Arguably they created a (nearly literal) monster in the process. And while Cobb became a great player, his Tigers teams never won a championship.
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