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  #51  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:32 AM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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Originally Posted by Chingon View Post
Obama quoted himself?
Obama is a Nobel Peace Prize winner. He can do whatever he wants. It's not as if you could stop him.
  #52  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:15 PM
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But it's fair to say that Mr. Gates acted just as stupidly as the police.
Who's more in the wrong, the guy who yells at a cop, or the cop who arrests someone for yelling?
  #53  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:42 PM
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I'll judge that Obama was in the wrong.

1) He didn't know the truth of the case. So while it may be that he was correct that the officer failed to de-escalate the situation when he could have, it is pure chance that he is correct on that matter.

2) The review that was conducted made the determination that both parties were in the wrong, so Obama was also wrong in "clearing" Mr. Gates - again, without knowing anything about the facts.
First, Obama may not have known all the facts, but it is incorrect to say he did not know anything about the facts. Second, the statement made by Obama, the one quoted in the OP for debate and available in the link, was more fully, "...the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home...." Isn't that consistent with the truth of the case?
  #54  
Old 01-09-2019, 08:50 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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Originally Posted by Cheesesteak View Post
Who's more in the wrong, the guy who yells at a cop, or the cop who arrests someone for yelling?
I would need to know the facts before I could say. Or I could bring up things that may or may not be relevant, and base my opinions on that.

Regards,
Shodan
  #55  
Old 01-09-2019, 09:07 PM
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I would need to know the facts before I could say. Or I could bring up things that may or may not be relevant, and base my opinions on that.

Regards,
Shodan
I think you should bring up black-on-black crime.
  #56  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:21 AM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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That may or may not be relevant. But given the long history in this country of burglary, it's safe to conclude that Mr. Gates acted stupidly.

Regards,
Shodan
  #57  
Old 01-10-2019, 09:37 AM
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But given the long history in this country of burglary, it's safe to conclude that Mr. Gates acted stupidly.
What was he thinking trying to fix his front door, out in the open and everything, while BLACK! I mean, what did he expect?
  #58  
Old 01-11-2019, 01:02 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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What was he thinking trying to fix his front door, out in the open and everything, while BLACK! I mean, what did he expect?
Imagine that. A neighborhood resident thought she saw two men trying to break into a home only to find out later that the two men admitted that they were actually trying to break into the house. I guess that's what happens when you don't live in a snitches-get-stitches-type of neighborhood.
  #59  
Old 01-11-2019, 03:24 PM
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Imagine that. A neighborhood resident thought she saw two men trying to break into a home only to find out later that the two men admitted that they were actually trying to break into the house. I guess that's what happens when you don't live in a snitches-get-stitches-type of neighborhood.
You can't break into your own house. cite.
  #60  
Old 01-12-2019, 11:06 AM
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Gates replied, "Yeah, I'll speak with your mama outside."

Nice!
  #61  
Old 01-14-2019, 11:43 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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I think Obama should have refrained from commenting. As President, his remarks have power to influence public beliefs and sway potential jurors. This could have posed problems had this been litigated.

But the cop did act stupidly.
I tend to agree with this. I don't have a problem with the actual substance of Obama's comments, but there was no reason for him to comment.
  #62  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:20 PM
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No legal reason, no. But a President's responsibility for leadership is quite a bit broader than that. He did help shed light on the very real problem of racism among police.
  #63  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:34 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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Sure. He also gave his opponents something to criticize, and didn't need to point out the absurdity of a ~60 year old Harvard professor being arrested for breaking into his own home when it was already national news.
  #64  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:39 PM
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His opponents' criticism was a given anyway, to start with, and the nature of that criticism when presented publicly helped shed light on the problem of police racism. The absurdity of the case did likewise.
  #65  
Old 01-14-2019, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by doorhinge View Post
Imagine that. A neighborhood resident thought she saw two men trying to break into a home only to find out later that the two men admitted that they were actually trying to break into the house. I guess that's what happens when you don't live in a snitches-get-stitches-type of neighborhood.
I'm not sure if anyone besides Cheesecake faults the neighbor--they were, after all, trying to force open a jammed door (not just "fix" it). Although I do find it odd that the neighbor cared enough to call the police about suspicious activity but didn't care enough to know what the man looked like who lived there. The real problem was the police response.
  #66  
Old 01-14-2019, 02:45 PM
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You can't break into your own house. cite.
But how do you keep the neighbors from calling the police when they see suspicious/illegal activity in their neighborhoods? Call them all racists? Threaten them with bodily harm? Remind them that snitches get stiches?

Of course you can break into your own house. It's not illegal to break into your own house. However, you shouldn't expect a passers-by not to call the police when it appears that you are breaking into a house. It's possible that some people do not know everyone who lives in their neighborhood. What's wrong with saying thank you neighbors for trying to keep our neighborhood safe from criminals. Thank you officer for risking your life in order to keep my neighborhood safe. Even Obama has said, "If you see something, say something".
  #67  
Old 01-14-2019, 02:50 PM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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If you were arrested while trying to enter your own home using the front door, would you be grateful?
  #68  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
I'm not sure if anyone besides Cheesecake faults the neighbor--they were, after all, trying to force open a jammed door (not just "fix" it). Although I do find it odd that the neighbor cared enough to call the police about suspicious activity but didn't care enough to know what the man looked like who lived there. The real problem was the police response.
Do you know all of your neighbors by sight? I don't. I know many of them because we attend sub-division meetings. Some neighbors don't attend those meetings. Some neighbors have only moved in recently. There are even a few renters. And a few relatives/friends who stay for a couple of days, or weeks. There is nothing odd about not recognizing every face in your neighborhood.

It looks to me as if Gates wanted to bitch about a neighborhood tradition that he had little experience with. Yes, people do call the police when they see suspicious activity. Yes, police do respond to those calls.
  #69  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ElvisL1ves View Post
His opponents' criticism was a given anyway, to start with, and the nature of that criticism when presented publicly helped shed light on the problem of police racism. The absurdity of the case did likewise.
I don’t think Obama’s comments are what shed light on this issue. The circumstances alone were enough to bring visibility.

2018 saw a bunch of “BBQ Becky” incidents that are quite similar to what happens to Gates. I’m glad Trump hasn’t thrown in his two cents every time one of these stories became viral, because we already know what side he’d come down on and it would not be good.
  #70  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:10 PM
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If you were arrested while trying to enter your own home using the front door, would you be grateful?
Gates, and friend, didn't enter the house thru the front door because it was stuck. They entered thru the back door. After unsticking the front door, Gates later opened the front door in order to confront the police officer. One way to AVOID a confrontation would be to say, "Thanks for checking on me officer. Everything is OK. The front door was jammed shut, and we had to enter thru the back in order to fix it."
  #71  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:11 PM
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Do you know all of your neighbors by sight?
I do. I know every person that lives in the 10 houses nearest to mine and another 10 or 15 in the neighborhood.
  #72  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:41 PM
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I'm not sure if anyone besides Cheesecake faults the neighbor--they were, after all, trying to force open a jammed door (not just "fix" it).
Technically, I'm not trying to fault the neighbor as much as refute the idea that it's "stupid" to try and fix your own door because burglary is a crime.

Certainly Gates could have made different choices, but the ones he did make weren't criminal, and he didn't deserve to be arrested for them.
  #73  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:07 PM
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Do you know all of your neighbors by sight? I don't.
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Originally Posted by CookingWithGas View Post
I do. I know every person that lives in the 10 houses nearest to mine and another 10 or 15 in the neighborhood.
Besides that, this wasn't just some guy breaking into his own house. This was a prominent author, academic, television personality, and all around public intellectual. I might not know everyone who lives within a block of me, but I'm pretty sure I'd know if Skip Gates were one on my neighbors.

Before this incident Gates, who had been at Harvard since 1991, had: received a Macarthur Fellowship (the so-called Genius Grant) in 1981; been listed by Time Magazine as one of its 25 Most Influential Americans in 1997; received the National Humanities Medal in 1998; been elected to the American Academy of Arts and Letters in 1999; received the 2008 Ralph Lowell Award from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting; and been inducted into the Sons of the American Revolution in 2006. All of this in addition to his work on TV, including presenting Great Railways Journeys and African-American Lives on PBS.

I'd be pretty surprised if his neighbors didn't know he lived among them.
  #74  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:12 PM
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I do. I know every person that lives in the 10 houses nearest to mine and another 10 or 15 in the neighborhood.
Good for you.
  #75  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:18 PM
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Technically, I'm not trying to fault the neighbor as much as refute the idea that it's "stupid" to try and fix your own door because burglary is a crime.

Certainly Gates could have made different choices, but the ones he did make weren't criminal, and he didn't deserve to be arrested for them.
It's not "stupid" to try and fix your own door, even if you're a renter.

If someone is looking for a confrontation, they're bound to find one. Do you think you could have handled a similar situation without getting into an argument with a cop? Hello. I'm fine. How are you? Everything is fine. I live here. Door was jammed. Not jammed now. Nice to see my tax dollars at work. Thanks for stopping by. Goodbye. Have a nice day.
  #76  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:25 PM
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It's not "stupid" to try and fix your own door, even if you're a renter.

If someone is looking for a confrontation, they're bound to find one. Do you think you could have handled a similar situation without getting into an argument with a cop? Hello. I'm fine. How are you? Everything is fine. I live here. Door was jammed. Not jammed now. Nice to see my tax dollars at work. Thanks for stopping by. Goodbye. Have a nice day.
Works better if you're white.
  #77  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:13 PM
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Works better if you're white.
Would Gates have been more cooperative if the responding officer had been black?

If I was trying to break into my own home, should I be offended that a passerby called the police in order to report suspicious activity? Personally, I would thank the passerby for doing what they could to prevent my neighborhood from becoming a snitches-get-stiches/anything goes type neighborhood.

If I had just tried to break into my own home, should I be offended that a police officer investigated a possible break-in?
  #78  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:55 PM
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Do you think you could have handled a similar situation without getting into an argument with a cop?
Yes, and I said that right in the post you quoted.

Do you think the cop could have handled the situation without escalating it into an argument? Excuse me, sir is Mr. Gates at home? Oh, you ARE Mr. Gates? That's a relief, one of your neighbors saw someone jimmying the door and called us to investigate. Is everything OK here, were you working on the door? Thank you, I'll note that on the report. If you could, may I see your ID, so I can complete my report? Thank you, sir, and have a good day.

Another question I'm interested in is whether or not arguing with a cop is a crime. Because we only really have a Henry L Gates Case because he was arrested for being "disorderly" on his front porch.
  #79  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:54 AM
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Gates, and friend, didn't enter the house thru the front door because it was stuck. They entered thru the back door.
What does that have to do with anything?
  #80  
Old 01-16-2019, 05:35 PM
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What does that have to do with anything?
I was responding to a previous statement that had made.
  #81  
Old 01-16-2019, 05:51 PM
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I was responding to a previous statement that had made.
Was it already too short to quote?
  #82  
Old 01-16-2019, 06:43 PM
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Was it already too short to quote?
Did you get lost? It was only two posts above yours.
  #83  
Old 01-21-2019, 10:42 PM
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If someone is looking for a confrontation, they're bound to find one. Do you think you could have handled a similar situation without getting into an argument with a cop?
And arguing with a cop when you did nothing illegal is an arrestable offense?
  #84  
Old 01-21-2019, 11:44 PM
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And arguing with a cop when you did nothing illegal is an arrestable offense?
I've heard that it's easy to get yourself arrested if that's your intention.
  #85  
Old 01-22-2019, 05:25 AM
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I've heard that it's easy to get yourself arrested if that's your intention.
I've heard that if you cross MS-13, they'll kill you as soon as look at you. But of course that's not morally right (nor is it legal). And MS-13 is a vicious criminal gang; cops are supposed to be law enforcement officers.

So, to rephrase Saint Cad's question a bit, do you think arguing with a cop when you did nothing illegal ought to be an arrestable offense?
  #86  
Old 01-22-2019, 01:30 PM
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I've heard that if you cross MS-13, they'll kill you as soon as look at you. But of course that's not morally right (nor is it legal). And MS-13 is a vicious criminal gang; cops are supposed to be law enforcement officers.

So, to rephrase Saint Cad's question a bit, do you think arguing with a cop when you did nothing illegal ought to be an arrestable offense?
Are you suggesting that the responding officer killed Gates? I haven't read that anywhere. Maybe that was a poor example?

"Nothing illegal" are the key words, aren't they. Illegal is defined by whatever the law defines as illegal, or unlawful, or a violation, etc.. Arguing with a cop when you did nothing illegal should not be an arrestable offense. Unless, or until, you actually do something that is considered illegal/unlawful as prescribed by existing laws. Then the cuffs are applied. If you're looking for a confrontation with a police officer, I'm sure you can instigate one. Or not. Your choice.
  #87  
Old 01-22-2019, 03:24 PM
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Arguing with a cop when you did nothing illegal should not be an arrestable offense.
Great! I'm glad we cleared that up!

But then you go on to say
Quote:
Unless, or until, you actually do something that is considered illegal/unlawful as prescribed by existing laws. Then the cuffs are applied. If you're looking for a confrontation with a police officer, I'm sure you can instigate one. Or not. Your choice.
So, in this case, at what point do you think Gates crossed the line from "arguing with a cop" (not illegal, therefore not arrestable) to--apparently? maybe? by implication?--doing something that you sort of seem to be saying might be an arrestable offense. (Again, just going by the police version of events as recounted in the Wikipedia article). Not "Professor Gates was being awfully rude to that guy, who was just trying to do his job, protecting and serving" but "Professor Gates has broken the law, and should now be arrested". We agree that "arguing with a cop when you did nothing illegal" should not be arrestable, but you seem to be sort of implying that at some point, I don't know--continuing to argue with a cop, or arguing in a "disrespectful" manner, or something--maybe is an arrestable offense.
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