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  #51  
Old 06-01-2005, 02:12 AM
snailboy snailboy is offline
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Getting back to the original topic, can coyotes even distinguish human urine from urine of other species, including cats? No doubt they can tell when another coyote has marked its territory, and may even be able to distinguish canine urine from other forms of urine, but knowing the scent of human urine does not seem like something that would be instinctive for a coyote and could not be learned unless it watched a human urinate outside and then ran up and smelled it.
  #52  
Old 06-01-2005, 02:24 AM
justwannano justwannano is offline
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Look guys
That coyote is going to eat the critter that is easiest to catch.
Also which critter is going to hurt the most when it fights back.
That cat is going to bite back.The field mouse might get in a bite or 2 but nothing like how the cat will fight back.
You've all seen a cat back off a dog with one swipe of its claws.
Well that coyote is just a dog with no upbringing.
Yeah they eat cats and anything else that they can kill but they are lazy will take the easiest critter to kill without getting hurt themselves.
  #53  
Old 06-01-2005, 02:31 AM
justwannano justwannano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snailboy
Getting back to the original topic, can coyotes even distinguish human urine from urine of other species, including cats? No doubt they can tell when another coyote has marked its territory, and may even be able to distinguish canine urine from other forms of urine, but knowing the scent of human urine does not seem like something that would be instinctive for a coyote and could not be learned unless it watched a human urinate outside and then ran up and smelled it.

That coyote will recognize the human urine as from a critter to avoid.
The question is really will it recognize it as a territory marker.
As an old trapper I simply don't know but suspect it will.
  #54  
Old 06-01-2005, 03:37 AM
snailboy snailboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justwannano
That coyote will recognize the human urine as from a critter to avoid.
The question is really will it recognize it as a territory marker.
As an old trapper I simply don't know but suspect it will.
How would it know it's from a critter to avoid? Unless it knows specifically the urine is from a human, I see no way it could know if it came from a large carnivore, a small herbivore, etc. Maybe urine from carnivores have a different scent than that of herbivores, and it can kind of tell the size by the amount of urine (although that seems ineffective since the urine would fade away over time), but I'd sure like to know how it would know that a human (or even just a large carnivore/omnivore) peed on the tree and not just a cat, squirrel, etc.
  #55  
Old 06-01-2005, 08:01 AM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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I think it's clear that DrDeth is simply going to ignore all evidence that doesn't support his point, Blake. Re-reading the thread shows that nobody (including the OP and DrDeth himself) restricted comments to mammals until he realized that his original statement (which I've quoted to him twice already) was incorrect. Now he's trying to change his intent again by eliminating insectivores (which are clearly carnivores) and river otters (which eat primarily carnivorous fish).

There are far more herbivores than carnivores in any given land ecosystem. An opportunistic hunter like a bobcat or coyote will encounter a lot more rabbits than housecats or skunks, so it will eat what it gets. In no way does this give credence to the claim that they won't generally eat carnivores. It just says they don't get as many opportunities.

DrDeth, we've given you numerous examples of land carnivores that eat other meat eaters (including "pure" carnivores, omnivores, carrion-eaters, insectivores, and more). You have yet to provide evidence of one single solitary study that states that a land carnivore shows any preference whatsoever for herbivores when given the opportunity to eat either one.

Your attempts to weasel out of it aren't working. Weasel? Oh, yeah, they're yet another land mammal predators which regularly eat other land mammal predators (shrews, for example).
  #56  
Old 06-01-2005, 08:09 AM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snailboy
Maybe urine from carnivores have a different scent than that of herbivores
It does. And territorial animals commonly use urine as a marker, and recognize their own species. A male mountain lion can recognize mountain lion urine, and tell whether it comes from another male ("my turf--keep out") or a female ("gotta go find her").

I believe that dogs can not only recognize dog urine, but tell which individual it came from, hence the fire-hydrant-sniffing routine ("hey, Fido was here this morning!").
  #57  
Old 06-01-2005, 09:14 AM
justwannano justwannano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snailboy
How would it know it's from a critter to avoid? Unless it knows specifically the urine is from a human, I see no way it could know if it came from a large carnivore, a small herbivore, etc. Maybe urine from carnivores have a different scent than that of herbivores, and it can kind of tell the size by the amount of urine (although that seems ineffective since the urine would fade away over time), but I'd sure like to know how it would know that a human (or even just a large carnivore/omnivore) peed on the tree and not just a cat, squirrel, etc.
Cause its mama said so.
  #58  
Old 06-01-2005, 11:42 AM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
Re-reading the thread shows that nobody (including the OP and DrDeth himself) restricted comments to mammals until he realized that his original statement (which I've quoted to him twice already) was incorrect.

There are far more herbivores than carnivores in any given land ecosystem. An opportunistic hunter like a bobcat or coyote will encounter a lot more rabbits than housecats or skunks, so it will eat what it gets. In no way does this give credence to the claim that they won't generally eat carnivores. It just says they don't get as many opportunities.

DrDeth, we've given you numerous examples of land carnivores that eat other meat eaters (including "pure" carnivores, omnivores, carrion-eaters, insectivores, and more). You have yet to provide evidence of one single solitary study that states that a land carnivore shows any preference whatsoever for herbivores when given the opportunity to eat either one.
.
The OP is about Coyotes eating housecats. Both Land mammals. It isn't about Fluffy being eaten by the Great White Shark. You both, having lost your point quite some time ago, insist on trying to hijack the thread. I won't go there. It's rude.

Yes, indeed- there are more herbivores than carnivores- which is one of the reasons why carnivores don't commonly prey on them. Chronos gave another good reason- carnivores are better armed. Even though a porcupine is slow, stupid and tasty, most carnivores avoid them- too much danger involved in getting a good meal.

There are no studies that try and prove a negative. They can't be done, and that's simply not the way Zoology works. I do have a BS in Zoology you know. Zoologists list prey that the animal does prey on, not animals it doesn't. I won't be able to find a cite that says "the bobcat does NOT prey on the grizzly bear, the Bison, the...." And- it's NOT because the Bobcat does. Insistance that I try and "prove the negative" is a logical fallacy.

I have given you 20 cites. I have given you cites which are footnoted scientific cites amoung them. None list any carnivores as common prey of another carnivore.

Yes, you have ONE cite which shows the Bobcat are having a couple carnivores on it's list of prey. But even there, the author is careful to distinquish them as just "also". And, I have given 6 cites to your one which show the bobcat is considered by most Zoologists and sources not to commonly prey on other carnivores. Note you still have one cite to my 20. I will happily list another 20.

You yourself have stated that there aren't that many carnivores; thus there aren't enough for them to be common, and thus you yourself have proven that carnivores can't be common prey. However, that's not the major reason, I would guess, although it certainly IS a reason.
  #59  
Old 06-01-2005, 02:21 PM
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Chronos Chronos is offline
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Don't read too much into my argument. We've yet to establish that coyotes do prefer rabbits to housecats. Certainly, they will eat housecats if the opportunity presents itself. Blake and others have produced several cites to that effect, and to the effect that other carnivores also eat carnivores when given the chance. You have produced many cites, of which zero counter that claim. None of your cites anywhere says that carnivores make any effort to avoid eating other carnivores.

Now, it may be that carnivores do have some bias against eating other carnivores (how big this bias is, or even if it exists at all, I do not know). If that is the case, then the sharper claws on carnivorous potential prey may be one reason. But we haven't yet established that it is the case.
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Old 06-01-2005, 03:08 PM
groman groman is offline
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Well some carnivores do have a bias against eating other carnivorous mammals, namely myself. It could be argued that I'm an omnivore, but I have trouble digesting things that aren't meat or milk, (even though they taste good, so I eat them).

If I had to hunt for my food, I wouldn't even consider felines or canines.
  #61  
Old 06-01-2005, 03:26 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos
Don't read too much into my argument. We've yet to establish that coyotes do prefer rabbits to housecats. Certainly, they will eat housecats if the opportunity presents itself. Blake and others have produced several cites to that effect, and to the effect that other carnivores also eat carnivores when given the chance. You have produced many cites, of which zero counter that claim. None of your cites anywhere says that carnivores make any effort to avoid eating other carnivores.
.
Well, like I said- in Zoology they list what an animal does eat, not what it doesn't. I can't prove Bobcats don't prey on Grizzlies, either.

They have produced one cite, not many, and that one cite does claim that Bobcats eat foxes and cats 'also".

I have no doubt at all that the urban coyote will scarf a housecat. They have limited prey choices- few rabbits.

However, note this scientific article- which extensively discusses predator/prey and all the major predators of N.America. no-where is preadtion upon other predators mentioned. This article covers coyote preadtion extensively.
http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p16.htm

Here's another scientific article that discuses general predator behavior, including "The subtleties in predator-prey systems are only beginning to emerge. Thirty years ago, who would have thought that prey animals not only detect the urine and feces of the carnivores that prey on them but specifically identify them (Muller-Schwarze 1972; Steinberg 1977; Sullivan 1986; Sullivan et al. 1990)." This answer the question raised about if urine COULD work. It could. (Doesn't mean it will, but it COULD).
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/m...n/maintext.htm

Ah, is finally an article- a scientific article that says "Interspecific interactions can result in the death of a competing predator, or merely the exclusion of the subordinate species. Although aggressive interactions occur, most predators avoid contact." That says that predators tend to avoid each other, thus they don't hunt each other. It does mention that predators do occasionaly kill another predator near a kill site, defending their kill, as I said. It does NOT mention predators hunting others for food.
http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p6.htm

Here is another interesting article. It lists the stomach contents of thousands and thousands of studies of every land mammal carnivore in N.America- those living near civilization, note. In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found. No significant % of coyotes were found with domestic cat, for example.
http://www.stevesrealfood.com/research/foodhabits.html
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Old 06-01-2005, 04:06 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
The OP is about Coyotes eating housecats. Both Land mammals. It isn't about Fluffy being eaten by the Great White Shark.
Oh, good grief. They're both predators. They're both mammals. They're both vertebrates. They're both fuzzy. They're both larger than a typical brick. I didn't assume that the OP just refered to creatures larger than a typical brick, did I? You're being ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
I have given you 20 cites. I have given you cites which are footnoted scientific cites amoung them. None list any carnivores as common prey of another carnivore. ... Yes, you have ONE cite which shows the Bobcat are having a couple carnivores on it's list of prey.
You're not even reading my posts, are you? You're just picking out the bobcats when I also mentioned river otters, weasels, coyotes, and others (which you won't accept because you redefined the original OP to be mammals only.

Look, if you have a degree in biology, you must have studied some logic. You must know that you can't prove a negative through examples (as you stated), although it's easy to do a study where you provide a carnivore with other critters as potential prey. If it eats the herbivores and ignores the carnivores, your thesis is supported. If it eats the carnivores when there are herbivores present, your thesis is disproved. You haven't cited any such study.

This argument is pointless. Every time we make an argument, you either change your original thesis, pretend that the argument didn't get made (yeah, I said what about the river otters?), or use fallacious arguments to try and get around it.

Your statement was disproved. Several times (need I mention river otters again?). Give it up.
  #63  
Old 06-01-2005, 04:24 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat

Your statement was disproved. Several times (need I mention river otters again?). Give it up.
River otters eat fish, Fish are not "land mammals".
  #64  
Old 06-01-2005, 04:27 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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And, if we need to talk about what the Op was about- it was about whether or not urine would scare off a predator. Clearly, this is about marking territory with urine, not fish peeing in the river.
  #65  
Old 06-01-2005, 05:45 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
River otters eat fish, Fish are not "land mammals".
Oh, good grief! Now the predators that they eat have to be mammals, too?

You're simply not worth arguing with.
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Old 06-01-2005, 07:21 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Yes. My point has always been to asnwer the OP, not go off on hijacks.

Now if your argument (which has very little to do with the OP) is that some predators (even "land mammal") commonly eat fish, frogs, reptiles and such like-I conceded that some time ago. They do. Not a big suprise to anyone, I think.

My point is that land mammal carnivores do not COMMONLY prey upon other land mammal carnivores. Do you dispute this? Have you read my now some 25 cites and links? Especially this one: "Interspecific interactions can result in the death of a competing predator, or merely the exclusion of the subordinate species. Although aggressive interactions occur, most predators avoid contact." That says that predators tend to avoid each other, thus they don't hunt each other.
http://texnat.tamu.edu/symposia/coyote/p6.ht

I really don't think you can actually read those cites and still maintain that (land mammal) carnivores COMMONLY prey upon other (land mammal) carnivores.

This is germane to the OP, where whether or not Coyotes would COMMONLY prey upon similar creatures to housecats in the wild is part of the answer. In other words- would a wild coyote commonly include a bobcat or similar other fellow carnivore in his diet? The answer is no, according to my cites. However, also according to my cites- the urban coyote acts differently, so maybe it does eat cats. Now, would the urine of a predator (even though Man is a omnivore, yes) scare off a "fellow carnivore" in the wild? The answer appears to be yes or maybe, with many caveats. Thus- to get back to the OP- COULD human urine "scare off" a coyote? That's the OP, and that's what I am attempting to answer, not go off on any hijacks. It would appear that a coyote would certainly notice human urine, especially in the wild, and would tend to avoid areas marked with it. But would that work on an urban coyotes, so much more used to human smell? There- I am stumped. But the pee is free, so- why not?

If you whole point is that- "ha ha you didn't say "land mammal" in your first post and I proved to you that carnivores do eat other non-land mammal carnivores" -Then, I cheerfully concede. Cherish it. Now, can we get back to the OP?
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Old 06-01-2005, 09:39 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Okay, DrDeth, you've pulled me back for one last response.

YES, I dispute even your heavily-modified and custom-tailored claim. You've completely backed off of what you actually said in post 5, but I've even shot down your current point. I've offered evidence to support my position, not the least of which is the Audubon Society Field Guide to North American Mammals (page 575 of my edition mentions weasels eating shrews and even other weasels, for example).

Every time you make a statement that gets disproved, you disavow that statement and try to get back to the OP (maybe you should have been a politician instead of a scientist).

You want to get back to the OP? Fine. Coyotes eat housecats. And you can't weasel out of it by saying "urban coyotes are different." The county I live in has an average density of three dwellings per square mile and is adjascent to a national park, an Indian reservation, and two national forests. This ain't urban, and coyotes eat housecats.

Save your cute little rolleye icons. We've proved far more than we needed to, and you have no response except to point out some other herbivore that gets eaten by a carnivore. The coyote part of the OP's been answered, and the answer is that coyotes (land mammal carnivores) eat housecats (land mammal carnivores).
  #68  
Old 06-01-2005, 10:09 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InvisibleWombat
Coyotes eat housecats. And you can't weasel out of it by saying "urban coyotes are different." The coyote part of the OP's been answered, and the answer is that coyotes (land mammal carnivores) eat housecats (land mammal carnivores).
Prove it. My cites- and scientific cites, with full footnoting and everything- say different.
  #69  
Old 06-01-2005, 10:32 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
Prove it. My cites- and scientific cites, with full footnoting and everything- say different.
Oh, and before you get funny- prove that coyotes COMMONLY eat housecats.

Here- they dissected THOUSANDS of coyotes- and no cat remains were listed amoung that found."Here is another interesting article. It lists the stomach contents of thousands and thousands of studies of every land mammal carnivore in N.America- those living near civilization, note. In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found. No significant % of coyotes were found with domestic cat, for example."
http://www.stevesrealfood.com/research/foodhabits.html

I am willing to concede that occasionally an Urban coyote will attack, and even eat an occasional housecat. However, that's not the only point that needs to be studies here. You clearly don't know much about Zoological studies.

Here's what we need to know (and what I have been trying to find out):
1. Do (land mammal) carnivores commonly prey on other (land mammal) carnivores? That is would a wild coyote prey upon a wild cat? (The answer is no, according to my cites)
2. Are uban coyotes different from their wild cousins in their eating habits? That is-do urban coyotes commonly eat housecats? Is there a real significant danger? (no statistical data, just ancedotal)
3. Do carnivores in general- and coyotes in particular- avoid the "marking" of territory by other carnivores? (I have found the answer seems to be "yes", according to my research and cites)
4. Do humans count as a 'carnivore" for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? (no data, but in the wild, animals do avoid humans)
5. If 3 & 4 are generally "yes" will an urbanized coyote still respect and avoid the same as his more wild cousin? (no data)

Questions such as "do river otters eat fish" are not relevant. I never stated they didn't nor do I care for the purposes of this OP. (I happen to know that they do, but...) I have never changed my purpose- to answer the Op's question. You seem determined to hijack the thread with statements about river otters and their piscine diets. I have never been talking about anything BUT land mammal carnivores in general. Sure, it appears you were confused by my statement in my first post- which is why I have repeatly clarified myself.

Can we get back to the OP now? Do you have any facts to help the OP? Any real cites about coyotes or carnivore territory marking?
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Old 06-02-2005, 09:01 AM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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You've ignored every fact I've posted, DrDeth, and I have better things to do than present evidence to someone who either doesn't want to see it or doesn't understand it. I'm outta here.
  #71  
Old 03-11-2006, 04:01 AM
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I know it's an old thread, but I just stumbled upon the following while doing a journal search, and was struck by how relevant it was. It certainly proves once and for all that predators commonly prey on other predators.

The Ecology and Evolution of Intraguild Predation: Potential Competitors That Eat Each Other
Gary A. Polk: Christopher A. Myers Robert D. Holt
Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics. Vol. 20. (1989), pp. 297-330

Quote:
Interactions between species are usually categorised as either competition, predation/parasitism, mutualism, commensalism, or amensalism. Intraguild predation (IGP) is a combination of the first two, that is the killing and eating of species that use similar, often limiting, resources and are thus potential competitors. …

Our purpose is to document the ubiquity and importance of intraguild predation and to establish a theoretical framework for its analysis. A taxonomically widespread interaction, IGP significantly affects the distribution, abundance, and evolution of many species….


OMNIVOROUS INTRAGUILD PREDATION Almost any diet or food web study shows that IGP on smaller predators is ubiquitous. Most predators eat food types in a particular size range regardless of that prey’s trophic levels or feeding history[/b] (51, 88, 105, 132). Thus, larger species are frequently omnivorous both on a resource and on smaller (intermediate level) consumers of that resource (see Figure 1a). This “closed loop omnivory” (.132) characterizes freshwater (51, 86, 91. 92, 132), marine (20, 27, 83, 85, 101) and terrestrial (12, 88, 105, 145) food webs. In most cases, large A eat smaller B….

Carnivores eat a variety of vertebrates: e.g. desert coyotes eat … carnivores (roadrunners, reptiles, and mammals)… Carnivorous mammals often overlap substantially in diet (30). Many “readily prey on other carnivores” (125), e.g. tigers prey on bears (black, brown, and sloth bears), dogs, wolves, lynx, and badgers (125): leopards prey on lions, cheetahs, wild dogs, and spotted hyenas (also raptors, crocodiles, and pythons; …


Age-dependent mutual IGP is widespread among terrestrial and aquatic guilds… Leopards are mutual predators with lions, spotted hyenas, tigers, large raptorial birds, crocodiles, and pythons…


Leopards and packs of wild dogs can kill and eat solitary lions; two or more lions eat and kill leopards and wild dogs (30, 126. 139). Similar mutual IGP occurs between leopards and spotted hyenas (30, 126, 139): jackals and cheetahs (14, 30): and wolves and bears (82).

...


Lions cause over half the total deaths of spotted hyenas (67). Red foxes arc the most important predator on Arctic foxes (117). Mortality in cheetah kittens may reach 95% with over half often due to IGP by other carnivores, especially lions and hyenas (14, 30 and included refs; J. Henschel, personal communication). Such IGP may be a major factor limiting cheetah populations. For example, maintenance of large populations of other carnivores (e.g. lions, hyenas, leopards, wild dogs) on African game reserves and parks in Nairobi Park and South Africa) greatly depresses cheetah populations (these carnivores also steal food from cheetahs). In Namibia, where populations of these other carnivores were drastically reduced by hunting, cheetahs are now so abundant that they often are considered “vermin” by ranchers because they eat domestic animals.
Bolding mine of course.
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Old 03-13-2006, 02:31 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Great information, Blake. Thanks!
  #73  
Old 03-13-2006, 07:48 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
Here is another interesting article. It lists the stomach contents of thousands and thousands of studies of every land mammal carnivore in N.America- those living near civilization, note. In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found.
Just noticed that this is just plain untrue. The page you link to quite clearly lists shrews and opposums as dietary items.

Aside from that the there are numeorus references to "domestic livestock", "small mammals", "livestock", "other mammals" and so forth that give no indictaion of what the animals are.




Quote:
1. Do (land mammal) carnivores commonly prey on other (land mammal) carnivores? That is would a wild coyote prey upon a wild cat? (The answer is no, according to my cites)
The answer is an inarguable "Yes" accoridng to my cite from a real zoologist, not someone shilling overpriced dogmeat.


Quote:
3. Do carnivores in general- and coyotes in particular- avoid the "marking" of territory by other carnivores? (I have found the answer seems to be "yes", according to my research and cites)
Would have been more convincing had you been able to share them with us.

Quote:
4. Do humans count as a 'carnivore" for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? (no data, but in the wild, animals do avoid humans)
You just spent the last 6 posts tellieng everyone that opossums, shrews and bears aren't carnivores for the puproses of this discussion. Yet now you want to include humans as carnivores?
  #74  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:00 PM
racer72 racer72 is offline
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No one mentioned the obvious fix. You want pee to keep the coyotes away from the cats. The cats won't stay in the area protected by the pee. Answer: pee on the cats.
  #75  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:11 PM
DrDeth DrDeth is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
Just noticed that this is just plain untrue. The page you link to quite clearly lists shrews and opposums as dietary items.

Aside from that the there are numeorus references to "domestic livestock", "small mammals", "livestock", "other mammals" and so forth that give no indictaion of what the animals are.

Would have been more convincing had you been able to share them with us.

You just spent the last 6 posts tellieng everyone that opossums, shrews and bears aren't carnivores for the puproses of this discussion. Yet now you want to include humans as carnivores?
Shrews are Insectivores. Opossums are Omnivores. And- unless you have been raised on a REALLY strange farm, there are no mammals that can be called "predators" that are raised as "livestock". I guess it is possible that "other mammals" or "small mammals" could indeed include a true mammalian carnivore, but my statement was "In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found." not "none of these could possibly be a predator". Of the identified mammals, not one is a carnivore. Sure, coyotes are known for being "Eatus Anythingus" so I don't doubt that they do scarf an occasional fellow carnivore. But as this study clearly shows, none such are a significant part of their diet.

Did, some half-dozen times. Really, you should read other dudes cites and posts.

Nope, didn't say that. Here's what I said "4. Do humans count as a 'carnivore" for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? (no data, but in the wild, animals do avoid humans)" Notice the little thing called a "question mark" and the qualifing of the term carnivore as " Do humans count as a "carnivore" for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? " Note the quotes, also.

Good cite, however, Blake. Too bad you ruined it by trying to put words in my mouth, misinterpreting what I said, and in general, not trying to help the eradication of Ignorance. Your cite disagrees with mine. But still and all- after dissecting thousands of coyotes, there were no cat remains identified. And still, your cite only helps answer part of question 1. Let's try and fight Ignorance by getting real answers to all the questions, hmm?

I still don't know if "peeing in the backyard" will keep coyotes away*, and this last exchange didn't move the answer forward any, so I am not sure what use it was to ressurect a very old & dead thread, unless it was to try and score "points".


*My WAG is that it will do some good until & when the Coyotes get used to it.
  #76  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:30 PM
ouryL ouryL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje
My wife wants me to pee in the backyard. She says it will scare off coyotes so that they won't get the cats. It sounds a little suspicious to me.

Anyone know for sure?
Well, I suppose it would work if your aim was good.
  #77  
Old 03-13-2006, 08:38 PM
BoringDad BoringDad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by racer72
No one mentioned the obvious fix. You want pee to keep the coyotes away from the cats. The cats won't stay in the area protected by the pee. Answer: pee on the cats.
Actually, someone did mention this.

The obvious rhetorical question to answer the OP's dilemma is "What will it hurt to pee in the backyard?" And if the OP is unable to whiz out in public do to shyness, just flag down a a neighbor boy and tell them you'll give them a buck a week to whizz in your garden. You'll have to plant rain forest plants to handle the resulting irrigation. Nothing boys like better than peeing outside.
  #78  
Old 03-13-2006, 09:09 PM
spingears spingears is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje
My wife wants me to pee in the backyard. She says it will scare off coyotes so that they won't get the cats. It sounds a little suspicious to me.
Borrow a cougar from the zoo.

He will be more effective than you could possibly be!
__________________
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spingears
  #79  
Old 03-13-2006, 09:12 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Good grief. I just looked at yet anoytherone of Dr. Deth's own references, and even it says that he is wrong in no uncertain terms. Coyotes exhibit aggressive actions towards smaller predators, but in most cases they avoid contact with other predator species. . This is the reference Dr. Deth used above to ‘demonstrate’ that predators tend to avoid each other. In actual fact what it says is that predators tend to avoid predators that aren’t smaller than them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
Shrews are Insectivores. Opossums are Omnivores.
Are you trying to claim that shrews and opossums are not predators? If so please provide a reference for such an extraordinary claim.

We all know that shrews are insectivores and opossums are omnivores. But foxes, coyotes and bears are also insectivores and omnivores and are nonetheless predators. Shrews are also predators and opossums are also predators.

I look forward to your references which state that opossums and shrews are not predators given that I have provided highly reputable references stating that they are predators. And please, we don’t want references saying that they are omnivores or insectivores. We all know that just as we know that bears and coyotes are omnivores. We want references for your outrageous claim that opossums and shrews are not predators.


Quote:
And- unless you have been raised on a REALLY strange farm, there are no mammals that can be called "predators" that are raised as "livestock".
live·stock [ l v st k ]
n.
Domestic animals, such as cattle or horses, raised for home use or for profit, especially on a farm.


By the standard definition cats and dogs, being domestic animals raised for home use, qualify as livestock. Now if you have evidence that the authors of those papers used nay other definition then by all means present it. Better yet, present evidence of what classification cats or dogs would have been classified under. But if you cannot then we must concede that it is possible that the category ‘livestock’ includes cats and dogs.

Quote:
my statement was "In no case are any other predators listed as a part of the stomach contents found." not "none of these could possibly be a predator".
And that statement is untrue. I have provided references proving that both opossums and shrews are predators, and both opossums and shrews are listed as part of the stomach contents.

Quote:
Of the identified mammals, not one is a carnivore.
Yes, they were, Both shrews (pdf warning) and opossums are carnivores according to zoologists.

Please provide a reference for your claim that shrews and opossums are not carnivores since actual zoologists state clearly that they are.

Quote:
But as this study clearly shows, none such are a significant part of their diet.
But no one in this thread has been arguing that they are or even could be a significant part of the diet. What we have been taking exception to is your obviously erroneous claims that coyotes prefer not to eat cats and that in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores. The first claim is baseless. The second is provably untrue.

Quote:
Did, some half-dozen times. Really, you should read other dudes cites and posts.
Humour me and post these references indicating that coyotes in particular- avoid the "marking" of territory by other carnivores once more.

Quote:
Nope, didn't say that… Notice the little thing called a "question mark" and the qualifing of the term carnivore as " Do humans count as a "carnivore" for an area a coyote or carnivore will avoid? " Note the quotes, also.
In that case I have no idea what point you are trying to make. You seem to be saying here that you disbelieve that humans are carnivores yet you are simultaneously arguing that coyotes avoid human urine because we are carnivores.

Dr. Deth are humans carnivores or not according to you?

If we are carnivores then why did you spend so much time arguing that opossums and bears are not carnivores?

If we are not carnivores what is the relevance of whether carnivores avoid other carnivores?


Quote:
Too bad you ruined it by trying to put words in my mouth, misinterpreting what I said, and in general, not trying to help the eradication of Ignorance.
What words did I put in our mouth? You said “Not their first choice mind you- in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores” My reference states that “IGP on smaller predators is ubiquitous” in most land ecosystems. One of those statements can’t be true. Either IGP is ubiquitous in land ecosystems or else land carnivores generally don’t prey on other carnivores.

At the moment the only reference says that you are wrong, and that many carnivorous mammals readily prey on other carnivores.

Quote:
Your cite disagrees with mine.
No, it doesn’t. None of your ‘cites’ make any mention of the readiness with which carnivores prey on carnivores.

Quote:
Let's try and fight Ignorance by getting real answers to all the questions, hmm?
Let’s try to fight ignorance by not stating nonsense like “in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores” when we know in fact that predation of land carnivores by other land carnivore sis ubiquitous

Quote:
… I am not sure what use it was to ressurect a very old & dead thread, unless it was to try and score "points".
The point was to demonstrate that scientists have examined the evidence concerning the generality of land carnivores preying on land carnivores. They concluded that it was ubiquitous. Ergo your statement that in general it doesn’t occur is ignorant and untrue. That was the point.

Something can not be both ubiquitous and generally non-occurring.

Similarly your statement that no predators were found was ignorant and untrue. Both shrews and opossums are predators (I provided highly reputable references to this above, and will provide many more if you request).

The point was to fight ignorance. The statements posted in this thread were ignorant and conflicted with scientific knowledge. Demonstrating that with references was justification enough. We don’t just let urban legends and misinformation slip through around here because someone posted them in an attempt to answer the original question.

Just because someone genuinely believed that predation by land predators on land predators wasn’t ubiquitous doesn’t make such a belief any less ignorant. Just because someone genuinely believed that shrews and opossums aren’t; carnivores doesn’t make the claim any less ignorant. Just because someone genuinely believed that shrews and opossums are not predators doesn’t make the claim any less ignorant.
  #80  
Old 03-14-2006, 01:46 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
live·stock [ l v st k ]
n.
Domestic animals, such as cattle or horses, raised for home use or for profit, especially on a farm.
I wouldn't go so far as to classify dogs and cats as livestock, Blake. If we're going to count any animal raised for profit on a ranch or farm (a good definition, I think), then DrDeth is simply going to have to accept alligator farms, mink ranches, fox ranches, and so forth. Animals don't have to be raised as food to be livestock (although we certainly do eat alligators).
  #81  
Old 03-14-2006, 02:55 PM
Steve MB Steve MB is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spooje
Peeing in the back yard to scare off coyotes
I tried explaining it slowly and clearly, but neither the Homeowners' Association nor the Department of Health was having any.
  #82  
Old 03-14-2006, 05:43 PM
BoringDad BoringDad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve MB
I tried explaining it slowly and clearly, but neither the Homeowners' Association nor the Department of Health was having any.
That is why I'll never live in an area with a HomeOwner's association. Telling me when I can or can't urinate in my own backyard. Grumble grumble... cabin in the woods... grumble grumble... show them alll....

(Not implying anything about SteveMB. Just personal rant about HOAs.)
  #83  
Old 03-14-2006, 07:05 PM
MelCthefirst MelCthefirst is offline
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I've just read through this thread and I tend to think DrDeth has a point and Blake and I.Wombat (my favourite animal BTW) are being pedantic. Just let it go already!
  #84  
Old 03-14-2006, 07:48 PM
blondebear blondebear is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NurseCarmen
A pal o mine works for the Department of Natural Resources here in Saint Paul. He says you can tell when Coyotes have moved up the river bottom, because the neighborhoods surrounding mine have missing cat signs popping up all over.
The apartment building I used to live in sat on the edge of a canyon in San Diego...not a rural area, either. You could hear coyotes often at night, and see them wandering around checking out the patios. New tennants were routinely told to keep their cats indoors. Those who igored the warning usually put up their "missing cat" signs within a week.
  #85  
Old 03-14-2006, 08:03 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelCthefirst
I've just read through this thread and I tend to think DrDeth has a point and Blake and I.Wombat (my favourite animal BTW) are being pedantic. Just let it go already!

This is GQ, it is expected that your responses are factual, not baseless opinion.

If you think that he has a point when he says that land predators don't generally prey on other land predators then present some facts to that end. The journal reference says that predators eating other predators is ubiquitous in terrestrial ecosystems. Can you even explain how it can be both ubiquitous and not generally non-existent?

Dr Deth's own reference says that coyotes are agressive towards smaller predators and avoid othe predators. His own reference shows that carnivores routinely show up in the stomach contents of other arnivores.

If you think he has a point when he says that opossums and shrews are neither predators nor carnivores then present some facts to that end. I have presented references where zoologists state clearly that shrews and opossums are both carnivores and predators. Can you provide some facts to support your apparent belief that they are neither?


In short MelC, do you have anything factual to contribute to this GQ thread, or is your entire contribution baseless opinion?
  #86  
Old 03-14-2006, 09:57 PM
Gary Robson Gary Robson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelCthefirst
I've just read through this thread and I tend to think DrDeth has a point...
This entire debate comes down to DrDeth's first post in this thread, which included the statement:
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
in general, land carnivores don't prey on other land carnivores.
This statement has been proven false over and over and over, and DrDeth keeps trying to move the target ("yeah, mammals, I just meant mammals"). Every time he moves it, he's proven wrong again.

Exactly what is this "point" that DrDeth has, MelCthefirst?
  #87  
Old 03-14-2006, 11:05 PM
Blake Blake is offline
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Interference interactions, co-existence and conservation of mammalian carnivores
JOHN D. C. LINNELL* and OLAV STRAND
Diversity and Distributions (2000) 6, 169–176

Quote:
Three studies of remnant populations of San Joaquin kit foxes ( V. macrotis mutica ) in California found that large canid predation (mainly by coyotes) was responsible for between 75% and 90% of mortality among radio-collared kit foxes (Cypher & Scrivner, 1992; Eliason & Berry, 1994; Ralls & White, 1995)…..

High coyote densities have also caused problems for two high-profile reintroduction projects involving black-footed ferrets ( Mustela nigripes ) and swift foxes ( V. velox ). Radio-telemetry documented that the dominant cause of mortality (100% and 91% of mortality where cause was identified, respectively) among released individuals was predation from other predators, mainly coyotes (Carbyn et al. , 1994; Clark, 1994)…..

So here we have clear evidence that predation by coyotes is responsible for in excess of 75% of the total mortaility of three differnt carnivore species. Yet Dr. Deth and MelC still want us to believe that coyotes avoid other predators.



The potential for interspecific competition among African carnivores
T. M. Caro and C. J. Stoner
Biological Conservation
Volume 110, Issue 1 , March 2003, Pages 67-75
Quote:
We found that, on average, African carnivores might be killed and eaten by 8.6 (SE=0.8) other species. The species potentially most vulnerable to interspecific consumption were the zorilla and slender mongoose (potentially eaten by 33 species each), dwarf mongoose (27), and desert dwarf mongoose and Pousargues' mongoose (Dologale dybowskii; 21 each), African linsang (Pioana richardsoni; 18), and Alexander's cusimanse (Crossarchus alexandri; 16). The mean dropped to 5.4 (SE=0.5) species using the >33% range overlap cut-off.

Interference interactions, co-existence and conservation of mammalian carnivores
JOHN D. C. LINNELL* and OLAV STRAND
Diversity and Distributions (2000) 6, 169–176
Quote:
Until intensive field work was carried out the reasons why cheetahs ( Acinonyx jubatus ) occur at low density had long been a subject of concern among conservationists. Cub mortality between birth and independence averaged 95%, of which 73% was due to predation, mainly by lions ( Panthera leo ) (Laurenson, 1994). The effects of this can be seen at the population level, as cheetah density shows an inverse relationship to hyena ( Crocuta crocuta ) and lion density (Caro, 1994)…. The counter-intuitive result is that arctic foxes, cheetahs and wild dogs will probably survive best in areas with low prey abundance because areas rich in prey will be dominated by larger, more aggressive carnivores….
And we see evidence that any African carnivores is on average open to predation by no less than 8 other species and that 73% of juvenile mortality is due to predation by other carnivores. Yet we are expected to believe that such predation is rare.

What was this point that Dr. Deth had exactly?
  #88  
Old 03-15-2006, 01:21 PM
MelCthefirst MelCthefirst is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blake
This is GQ, it is expected that your responses are factual, not baseless opinion.
snip
In short MelC, do you have anything factual to contribute to this GQ thread, or is your entire contribution baseless opinion?
Opinion based on what I have read by you all - what else?!
  #89  
Old 03-16-2006, 05:41 PM
slaphead slaphead is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MelCthefirst
Opinion based on what I have read by you all - what else?!
Leave them to it, Mel. A pissing contest in a thread about pissing in backyards. How can you interfere with such perfection?
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