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  #101  
Old 06-05-2019, 02:26 PM
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Bernie Sanders provides an example of how to talk about socialism for his fellow Dems - disown its history:

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Sanders, I-Vt., dismissed the connection between the failed socialist states and his own vision for America, during an interview on Comedy Central’s “The Daily Show” Tuesday.

“Obviously, Soviet Union was an authoritarian society with no democratic rights, and I think if you know history, you know the democratic socialists fought and stood up against that,” the 2020 Democratic hopeful said.

“You can look at what existed in the Soviet Union or Venezuela, that is not what I’m talking about at all.”
That's right, Bernie thinks the "democratic socialists" fought against the USSR and Chavez / Maduro regimes. LOL!
  #102  
Old 06-05-2019, 02:28 PM
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Good points and also raises an interesting question. How is it that forced collectivization be it called “radical” socialism or communism is not 1/100th as toxic as fascism? Especially with the historical body count associated with both of these systems of government. My guess would have to be that there is an ideological affinity for collectivism among academia and such that sugar coats the present and historical realities of that system.
Well, do you consider what we have to be as toxic as fascism? You pay taxes for social services.

That you choose to call paying taxes towards providing public services as "radical" socialism or communism doesn't make them so.
  #103  
Old 06-05-2019, 02:33 PM
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Bernie Sanders provides an example of how to talk about socialism for his fellow Dems - disown its history:



That's right, Bernie thinks the "democratic socialists" fought against the USSR and Chavez / Maduro regimes. LOL!
Yeah, that army wasn't paid for by the people who voted for it to exist, right? LOLz all the way to anyone that didn't know that the we use all volunteer armies with private funding.

Or maybe you were missing the point that he was explaining what a democratic socialist was, but you are insisting that you already know.
  #104  
Old 06-05-2019, 02:47 PM
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That's right, Bernie thinks the "democratic socialists" fought against the USSR and Chavez / Maduro regimes. LOL!
Did they not? Cite?

I was under the impression that Democratic Socialists all across the West, but including in the US, were pretty clearly opposed to the Soviet system.
  #105  
Old 06-05-2019, 05:29 PM
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I think the dems need to change the messaging if they want to get the middle voters to show up in the swing states. I hope to hell they slow down on this socialism branding because I don't think it helps one bit.
  #106  
Old 06-06-2019, 11:22 AM
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Who says it's not "as toxic as fascism"? I hear my conservative acquaintances deriding liberals as communists just as often as I heary my liberal acquaintances deriding conservatives as fascists.
Because liberals have included those who expressed sympathy for Communists, have identified as Communists, and have been members of the CPUSA.

And as long as I'm replying to a post of yours; few people are going to see your medical care while on active duty as equivalent to Medicare for All. It was a benefit included with your job as an inducement to work for the USN (a particularly demanding job), while MfA is just another benefit perceived to be available for free to those who are not working/ earning it.
  #107  
Old 06-06-2019, 12:22 PM
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Because liberals have included those who expressed sympathy for Communists, have identified as Communists, and have been members of the CPUSA.
I don't understand how this is relevant. Especially because "conservatives" have included those who expressed sympathy for fascists and even identified as fascists (or white supremacists, or white nationalists, or neo-Nazis, or some similar group).

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And as long as I'm replying to a post of yours; few people are going to see your medical care while on active duty as equivalent to Medicare for All. It was a benefit included with your job as an inducement to work for the USN (a particularly demanding job), while MfA is just another benefit perceived to be available for free to those who are not working/ earning it.
I didn't bring it up to show some sort of "equivalence" -- I brought it up to demonstrate that, factually, government can and does run a health care program that provides excellent care. So that anyone who says that government is incapable of this is factually wrong, and this is the evidence (which doesn't mean that all government health programs will necessarily be this good).
  #108  
Old 06-06-2019, 12:29 PM
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nm, screwed up a quote.

Last edited by Red Wiggler; 06-06-2019 at 12:30 PM.
  #109  
Old 06-06-2019, 03:05 PM
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In the 50s, didn't the British get around the S word by calling it "nationalization"? This, as in nationalized health care, nationalized petroleum, etc. Ironically, the hypocrites branded Iranian President Mossadegh a pinko when he attempted to nationalize his country's oil industry using the British system as a model.
  #110  
Old 06-06-2019, 04:30 PM
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Well, do you consider what we have to be as toxic as fascism? You pay taxes for social services.
No. It's not bad paying taxes for public goods and services while fascism is quite unhealthy for quite a few folks.

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That you choose to call paying taxes towards providing public services as "radical" socialism or communism doesn't make them so.
Having a nation that respects private property and individual liberties while collecting taxes and spending on public goods is not the same as collectivism which includes socialism and communism. Public spending is not necessarily socialism. Trying to equate any public spending with socialism and then saying "look, public spending is ok therefore socialism is ok" is nothing more than a tricky rhetorical technique.

Last edited by octopus; 06-06-2019 at 04:30 PM.
  #111  
Old 06-06-2019, 05:59 PM
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Since this thread is still going, thought I'd link to this video on YouTube from VisualPolitik, that talks about Democratic Socialism, Ocasio-Cortez and the Nordic model, since it, again, illustrates to me the disconnect between Democrats, Americans in general, and what the Nordic states are and aren't wrt socialism...and the fact that a lot of the things AOC and Bernie advocate differ quite a bit from what the Nordic model actually is in a lot of cases (admittedly, a lot of what they want IS part of that model).
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  #112  
Old 06-08-2019, 10:12 PM
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IMO, Democrats should emphasize that we already have a hybrid system, and have for many decades -- many of our institutions are socialized (i.e. run by the government -- whether local, state, or federal), and many non-socialized institutions and sectors are regulated by government. We should emphasize that some things (defense, fire-fighting, law enforcement, etc.) have been proven to be more effective and efficient when socialized, and other things are clearly more effective and efficient when delivered by the free market (entertainment and leisure, for example, as well as many tech industries), with many involving both government and the free market. We should reiterate that socialism shouldn't be feared, since it's been part of the American system since its founding.

IMO this should be the basis when beginning discussions of things like universal health care. If we're capitulating to the framework of black and white "socialist vs capitalist" debates, then we're going to lose those debates.
Not to mention the disaster that privatizing prisons turned out to be. Who would have guessed that incentivizing warehousing more and more people for long periods of time could have negative consequences?
  #113  
Old 06-09-2019, 05:53 PM
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I don't understand how this is relevant. Especially because "conservatives" have included those who expressed sympathy for fascists and even identified as fascists (or white supremacists, or white nationalists, or neo-Nazis, or some similar group).
i don't understand how you don't see this is relevant because it is an exact answer to your quoted post.

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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I didn't bring it up to show some sort of "equivalence" -- I brought it up to demonstrate that, factually, government can and does run a health care program that provides excellent care. So that anyone who says that government is incapable of this is factually wrong, and this is the evidence (which doesn't mean that all government health programs will necessarily be this good).
I do not agree the care in the USN was/ is '"excellent", it is really expensive, and the VA is probably more representative of how the gov't would run public care.

Last edited by sps49sd; 06-09-2019 at 05:54 PM.
  #114  
Old 06-09-2019, 06:22 PM
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i don't understand how you don't see this is relevant because it is an exact answer to your quoted post.
My question was "Who says it's not "as toxic as fascism"?" If your answer is the truly minuscule portion of "liberals" who praise communism and advocate for "forced collectivism, then okay, but that's almost no one. Certainly not Bernie or AOC or any other prominent progressives.

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I do not agree the care in the USN was/ is '"excellent", it is really expensive, and the VA is probably more representative of how the gov't would run public care.
In my experience, it was excellent. As good or better than the health care I've received as a civilian (and much cheaper for the consumer in out-of-pocket spending, as well as hassle and paperwork).
  #115  
Old 06-09-2019, 06:56 PM
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My question was "Who says it's not "as toxic as fascism"?" If your answer is the truly minuscule portion of "liberals" who praise communism and advocate for "forced collectivism, then okay, but that's almost no one. Certainly not Bernie or AOC or any other prominent progressives.
Your next sentence was " I hear my conservative acquaintances deriding liberals as communists just as often as I hear my liberal acquaintances deriding conservatives as fascists." I'm saying there were actual Communist Party members among the group called 'liberals', and I am unaware of any real fascists among American conservatives. Which is why deriding liberals as 'communists' has more foundation than calling conservatives 'fascists'.

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In my experience, it was excellent. As good or better than the health care I've received as a civilian (and much cheaper for the consumer in out-of-pocket spending, as well as hassle and paperwork).
Yes, you already said that was your experience.
When I called it expensive, I certainly did not mean your out of pocket expenses.
  #116  
Old 06-10-2019, 04:16 AM
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Your next sentence was " I hear my conservative acquaintances deriding liberals as communists just as often as I hear my liberal acquaintances deriding conservatives as fascists." I'm saying there were actual Communist Party members among the group called 'liberals', and I am unaware of any real fascists among American conservatives. Which is why deriding liberals as 'communists' has more foundation than calling conservatives 'fascists'.
I'm aware of conservatives who are fascists. Your unawareness doesn't mean they don't exist. In my experience, there are significantly more neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists than communists in the US, and the former groups can reasonably be characterized as fascist (and are just as conservative as communists are liberal).
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  #117  
Old 06-10-2019, 07:30 AM
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Exactly, and you'd have to broaden the label to include anarchists to get any comparable far-left violent rallies, and even if you do, the liberal Presidents don't say "i'm sure there are some good people among them."
  #118  
Old 06-10-2019, 10:15 AM
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I'm aware of conservatives who are fascists. Your unawareness doesn't mean they don't exist. In my experience, there are significantly more neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists than communists in the US, and the former groups can reasonably be characterized as fascist (and are just as conservative as communists are liberal).
'In your experience' is anecdotal, and anyone who disagrees with left positions gets labeled as neo-Nazi, white supremacists, and white nationalists, then you add "fascist" to them. I'm unconvinced.

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Exactly, and you'd have to broaden the label to include anarchists to get any comparable far-left violent rallies, and even if you do, the liberal Presidents don't say "i'm sure there are some good people among them."
Trump was talking about the people on both sides of the statue debate. I'm sure everyone who wanted to keep the statues were fascists, right? and therefore can be safely dismissed.
  #119  
Old 06-10-2019, 10:43 AM
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'In your experience' is anecdotal, and anyone who disagrees with left positions gets labeled as neo-Nazi, white supremacists, and white nationalists, then you add "fascist" to them. I'm unconvinced.
And I'm unconvinced by your anecdotal reports.

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Trump was talking about the people on both sides of the statue debate. I'm sure everyone who wanted to keep the statues were fascists, right? and therefore can be safely dismissed.
Anyone who marched alongside those chanting "Jews will not replace us!" and carrying swastika flags (and much more!) can reasonably be characterized as, at best, Nazi/fascist tolerant. I don't believe anyone who is tolerant of Nazi-ism and fascism is a "good person", but YMMV.
  #120  
Old 06-10-2019, 11:08 AM
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... In my experience, there are significantly more neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and white nationalists than communists in the US...
Why should anyone accept your limited experience with a minute fraction of the American populace as indicative of a national trend?

ETA:
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
And I'm unconvinced by your anecdotal reports. ...

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 06-10-2019 at 11:08 AM.
  #121  
Old 06-10-2019, 03:11 PM
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Anyone who marched alongside those chanting "Jews will not replace us!" and carrying swastika flags (and much more!) can reasonably be characterized as, at best, Nazi/fascist tolerant. I don't believe anyone who is tolerant of Nazi-ism and fascism is a "good person", but YMMV.
You are changing what was brought up. Trump referred to people on both sides of the stature debate, you are moving to the much smaller group of wannabe Nazis (self proclaimed with their regalia) and whatever the chant was/ who was chanting (I have not heard the recording; I have heard they were saying YOU will not replace us, but whatever).

I know we have differences, but describing all or most Republicans and/ or right of center Americans as fascists is a calumny and, worse, avoids any resolution of our differences.
  #122  
Old 06-10-2019, 03:14 PM
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You are changing what was brought up. Trump referred to people on both sides of the stature debate, you are moving to the much smaller group of wannabe Nazis (self proclaimed with their regalia) and whatever the chant was/ who was chanting (I have not heard the recording; I have heard they were saying YOU will not replace us, but whatever).



I know we have differences, but describing all or most Republicans and/ or right of center Americans as fascists is a calumny and, worse, avoids any resolution of our differences.
I'm talking about the people who marched at Charlottesville, and so was Trump.
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  #123  
Old 06-10-2019, 03:28 PM
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Exactly, and you'd have to broaden the label to include anarchists to get any comparable far-left violent rallies, and even if you do, the liberal Presidents don't say "i'm sure there are some good people among them."
Are antifa anarchists?
  #124  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:20 AM
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I'm talking about the people who marched at Charlottesville, and so was Trump.
Yeah. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...of_139815.html

An excerpt:

"Here are the unambiguous actual words of President Trump:

“Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit:

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”"

Last edited by sps49sd; 06-11-2019 at 12:21 AM.
  #125  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:28 AM
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Democrats should talk about socialism the same way they would talk about pedophilia.
  #126  
Old 06-11-2019, 04:19 AM
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Originally Posted by sps49sd View Post
Yeah. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...of_139815.html

An excerpt:

"Here are the unambiguous actual words of President Trump:

“Excuse me, they didn’t put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group – excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”

After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit:

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”"
You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis.

Not "very fine people". The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump's explanation is bullshit.
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  #127  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:14 AM
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You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis.

Not "very fine people". The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump's explanation is bullshit.
I'm not one to take that first paragraph too far, but it's definitely appropriate in a rally called "Unite the Right": those who did not want to be considered "united" with Nazis should not have come.
  #128  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:58 AM
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You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis.

Not "very fine people". The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump's explanation is bullshit.
So if you march with Communists, does that make you a Communist? Because I have seen Communists marching at a lot of left-wing marches.
  #129  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:06 AM
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So if you march with Communists, does that make you a Communist? Because I have seen Communists marching at a lot of left-wing marches.
If the communists are dominating the march, shouting communist slogans, and carrying well known communist imagery on flags, then IMO, yes, you can be reasonably characterized as a communist (or communist-enabler).
  #130  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:29 PM
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You know what to call people who march alongside Nazis who are wearing and carrying Nazi/racist flags and regalia? Nazis.

Not "very fine people". The marchers were Nazis, racists, and white supremacists. Trump's explanation is bullshit.
Okay, I'll repeat:

After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit:

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

I'd like someone better to be President, too, but focus on something substantial that doesn't sound to others as fake news. There are real issues with Trump, and this isn't one to beat him with. (Neither is 'collusion'. IMHO.)
  #131  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:32 PM
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Okay, I'll repeat:

After another question at that press conference, Trump became even more explicit:

“I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.”

I'd like someone better to be President, too, but focus on something substantial that doesn't sound to others as fake news. There are real issues with Trump, and this isn't one to beat him with. (Neither is 'collusion'. IMHO.)
Trump's a liar, which shouldn't be news to anyone. He praised the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" marchers; the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" marchers were white supremacists and neo-Nazis. He praised white supremacists and neo-Nazis.
  #132  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:53 AM
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Trump's a liar, which shouldn't be news to anyone. He praised the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" marchers; the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" marchers were white supremacists and neo-Nazis. He praised white supremacists and neo-Nazis.
We are going to remain in disagreement, then.
  #133  
Old 06-12-2019, 11:54 AM
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We are going to remain in disagreement, then.
Except that one of you is arguing with the facts, the other against them.
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