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  #101  
Old 07-28-2019, 03:45 PM
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One of the invisible but important features of a dominant culture is that it, and it alone, gets to define what 'the other' is. Women are other. Blacks are other. Latinos are other, Asians are other. Etc. A great deal of the whatever-liberation focus is to be able to define yourselves, not have white males define you (and if you are a different 'color', then white women also get to define you).

It seems like a kind of fixed psychological rule that the dominant culture cannot, will not, see what they themselves are, and how they affect those they think of as other. They just can't. Rather than see what reality is like for those they dominate, they tie themselves into the most bizarre logistical knots. Even the most enlightened and empathetic individuals have a surprising amount of difficulty with it.

White male culture is super easy to see from the outside, though. Nothing easier really.
  #102  
Old 07-28-2019, 04:31 PM
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Perhaps. What I think is actually weirder is that our copy was actually a reprint published in 2011. And yet no one thought to update the illustrations.
That would cost money.

Rethinking my answer, I think you have an excellent point. One of the things about '50s culture was that while there were "others" around, they were invisible. (Remind you of a book title?)
I grew up three blocks from the black neighborhood. As far as I know, there was little or no crime there, certainly no one from my neighborhood was worried about it. But I never, ever went there and no one from there ever went into my neighborhood. Or to my elementary school. Or to my Boy Scout Troop. They might as well have lived on Mars.
So the editor might have lived and worked in New York, but never have really seen them.
That's '50s White Culture for you.
  #103  
Old 07-29-2019, 02:00 PM
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I don't agree that that's an accurate or clear description of the way "privilege" is typically used, especially with reference to the perspective of white people and male people. The weird bits in particular are the narrow focus on "presumption of innocence" and the suggestion of conscious indifference or even hostility to other people's rights.

As for whether it's an accurate description of how "white male culture" is "often viewed", all I can say is that I haven't encountered it before, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
You disagree, but why? I think we're getting caught up in some sort of word game.

The relevant definition of "culture" is "the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society". Unsurprisingly "white male culture" is the ideas, customs, and social behavior of white male people. There's nothing inherently racist or sexist in that definition, if read in isolation.

My understanding of "white male culture" in the vernacular is not the culture of white males, but "white male privilege". Privilege is "a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group". Therefore a "white male privilege" is a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to white male people as a group. "White male privilege" in the collective noun form refers to all of the rights, advantages, and immunities granted or available only to white male people as a group.

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White privileged is mostly being given the benefit of doubt, a second chance. White culture is expecting that benefit of the doubt.
I disagreed because expecting the benefit of the doubt is not something I associate with white male culture in particular. I believe the presumption of innocence is a right and ought to be part of American culture as a whole. If the meaning of those phrases is "expecting that benefit of the doubt", that implies that there is something negative or wrong with expecting a presumption of innocence, which contradicts my previous assertion.

There is something wrong with white male culture (white male privilege), but it is not merely expecting the benefit of the doubt. I think you and I agree that those phrases convey a hint of racism and sexism, not necessarily an outright amount but at least a small amount. This follows from the plain meaning of the words - if the privilege were not based on race, the word "white" would be meaningless; if the privilege were not sex-based, the word "male" would be meaningless. But surely it is neither racist nor sexist to expect a presumption of innocence? Such an expectation as to a right ought to be encouraged. As I said before, every person ought to demand that their rights are respected. It only becomes "white male privilege" or "white male culture" when one expects a presumption of innocence for white males, and does not expect the same for others.

~Max
  #104  
Old 07-30-2019, 07:46 AM
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I disagreed because expecting the benefit of the doubt is not something I associate with white male culture in particular. I believe the presumption of innocence is a right and ought to be part of American culture as a whole. If the meaning of those phrases is "expecting that benefit of the doubt", that implies that there is something negative or wrong with expecting a presumption of innocence, which contradicts my previous assertion.

There is something wrong with white male culture (white male privilege), but it is not merely expecting the benefit of the doubt. I think you and I agree that those phrases convey a hint of racism and sexism, not necessarily an outright amount but at least a small amount. This follows from the plain meaning of the words - if the privilege were not based on race, the word "white" would be meaningless; if the privilege were not sex-based, the word "male" would be meaningless. But surely it is neither racist nor sexist to expect a presumption of innocence? Such an expectation as to a right ought to be encouraged. As I said before, every person ought to demand that their rights are respected. It only becomes "white male privilege" or "white male culture" when one expects a presumption of innocence for white males, and does not expect the same for others.

~Max
I think most would agree that the presumption of innocence should be a right and part of American culture. Sadly, there are many of us who quite simply don't have that particular privilege. For many of us, we must operate as though we can be accused of wrong doing at any time for any reason and we must be fully prepared to defend ourselves from these accusations else we find ourselves in a hole we might not be able to climb out of. We have been demanding that our rights be respected for more years than I have been alive and things haven't really changed and future improvement isn't looking too good.

In my experience, white guys have never had this problem and typically operate as if everyone will always assume they are good people and their intentions are benign. I believe this is where the "expectation of the benefit of the doubt" comes from.

There's nothing wrong with expecting the benefit of the doubt it's just not something the rest of us get to enjoy with any frequency, thus it is part of that whole white privilege thing.
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Old 07-30-2019, 08:26 AM
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I'm not sure it's a "white male" thing or just a "male" thing, and to which extend it counts as culture is up for debate ; but one of the universal constants I've observed among men of all cultures and most walks of life was the inability to find one's blasted 10 mil socket, even though they just put it there a minute ago.
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  #106  
Old 07-30-2019, 08:53 AM
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There's a movie from the late 60's called "The Incident" . A couple of white punks terrorize a subway car full of people. Spoilers: Long story short, in the end the punks are "handled" by a white soldier who's wearing a cast.
When the train pulls into Grand Central Station, cops run in, see one of the punks injured on the ground and without asking for info, immediately grab the only black man on the car as if "naturally" he must be the villain.
Even with blood on the cast, the white guy is not even considered. This is the privilege being described.
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  #107  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:55 AM
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There's a movie from the late 60's called "The Incident" . A couple of white punks terrorize a subway car full of people. Spoilers: Long story short, in the end the punks are "handled" by a white soldier who's wearing a cast.
When the train pulls into Grand Central Station, cops run in, see one of the punks injured on the ground and without asking for info, immediately grab the only black man on the car as if "naturally" he must be the villain.
Even with blood on the cast, the white guy is not even considered. This is the privilege being described.
What does a fictional film have to do with the OP?
  #108  
Old 07-30-2019, 12:47 PM
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In my experience, white guys have never had this problem and typically operate as if everyone will always assume they are good people and their intentions are benign. I believe this is where the "expectation of the benefit of the doubt" comes from.

There's nothing wrong with expecting the benefit of the doubt it's just not something the rest of us get to enjoy with any frequency, thus it is part of that whole white privilege thing.
I acknowledge and agree with your observations. In many cases, especially for non-whites, cynicism is warranted. But as I said to tim-n-va, the conclusion is inconsistent with the negative connotation in "white male privilege" and "white male culture". You must either strip the phrases of their connotations, and therefore say there is nothing wrong with white male culture/privilege, or you must resolve the contradiction.

White male privilege is wrong, and it is not-wrong to want a presumption of innocence. The transition from wanting to expecting is a matter of consequence - the optimist will expect the presumption of innocence, the cynic will expect a presumption of guilt, and for most people experience determines whether one takes an optimal or cynical view. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with justified optimism or cynicism. Therefore there is nothing inherently right or wrong with an optimistic view; there is nothing inherently right or wrong with "expecting that benefit of the doubt".

Where is the injustice? It is found in people's experience - if you were to experience a situation where you were denied the presumption of innocence, that is unjust and therefore wrong. Therefore it is the denial of a presumption of innocence, the presumption of guilt or at least apathy, which gives "white male privilege" and "white male culture" their negative connotations.

~Max
  #109  
Old 07-30-2019, 12:58 PM
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What does a fictional film have to do with the OP?
The fact that a writer in the 60's knew even then that black people were the default "person of interest" in a potential crime scene. I've seen something like it happen in real life if that makes any difference to you.
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  #110  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:19 PM
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I acknowledge and agree with your observations. In many cases, especially for non-whites, cynicism is warranted. But as I said to tim-n-va, the conclusion is inconsistent with the negative connotation in "white male privilege" and "white male culture". You must either strip the phrases of their connotations, and therefore say there is nothing wrong with white male culture/privilege, or you must resolve the contradiction.

White male privilege is wrong, and it is not-wrong to want a presumption of innocence. The transition from wanting to expecting is a matter of consequence - the optimist will expect the presumption of innocence, the cynic will expect a presumption of guilt, and for most people experience determines whether one takes an optimal or cynical view. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with justified optimism or cynicism. Therefore there is nothing inherently right or wrong with an optimistic view; there is nothing inherently right or wrong with "expecting that benefit of the doubt".

Where is the injustice? It is found in people's experience - if you were to experience a situation where you were denied the presumption of innocence, that is unjust and therefore wrong. Therefore it is the denial of a presumption of innocence, the presumption of guilt or at least apathy, which gives "white male privilege" and "white male culture" their negative connotations.

~Max
I'm still digesting this but I think I agree with you to a certain degree.

The negative connotation doesn't come from white guys wanting/expecting the presumption of innocence or the benefit of the doubt. It comes from white guys wanting/expecting the presumption of innocence while actively denying women and people of color the same privilege. In my opinion it feels more hypocritical than amoral...but it still feels pretty amoral.
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Old 07-30-2019, 02:27 PM
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There are PLENTY of countries out there where white males are NOT dominant.

So I'd guess you would prefer Iran, Saudi Arabia, China... hell most of anywhere in Asia, middle east, Africa, Central and South America.
Of the countries you mention, the only one where the dominant chunk of the population would be considered "not white" by anyone other than an American is China.
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  #112  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:31 PM
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I'm still digesting this but I think I agree with you to a certain degree.

The negative connotation doesn't come from white guys wanting/expecting the presumption of innocence or the benefit of the doubt. It comes from white guys wanting/expecting the presumption of innocence while actively denying women and people of color the same privilege. In my opinion it feels more hypocritical than amoral...but it still feels pretty amoral.
No, you have it right. As soon as someone violates the golden rule, it ceases to be amoral and becomes hypocritical (immoral).
  • merely expecting a presumption of innocence is not wrong, it is optimistic
  • merely expecting a presumption of guilt is not wrong, it is cynical
  • expecting a presumption of innocence for oneself and not extending the same to others on account of race/sex is wrong, because it is hypocritical

~Max
  #113  
Old 07-30-2019, 03:18 PM
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The fact that a writer in the 60's knew even then that black people were the default "person of interest" in a potential crime scene. I've seen something like it happen in real life if that makes any difference to you.
Again, what has that to do with white male culture?

people are hijacking this into "white male privilege" which is rather a different thing.
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Old 07-30-2019, 03:35 PM
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I'm not sure it's a "white male" thing or just a "male" thing, and to which extend it counts as culture is up for debate ; but one of the universal constants I've observed among men of all cultures and most walks of life was the inability to find one's blasted 10 mil socket, even though they just put it there a minute ago.
Nothing specifically male about that. It's just human.

(That wrench has to be here someplace, I couldn't have disconnected this thing in the first place if I didn't have it!)

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White male privilege is wrong, and it is not-wrong to want a presumption of innocence. The transition from wanting to expecting is a matter of consequence - the optimist will expect the presumption of innocence, the cynic will expect a presumption of guilt, and for most people experience determines whether one takes an optimal or cynical view. There is nothing inherently right or wrong with justified optimism or cynicism. Therefore there is nothing inherently right or wrong with an optimistic view; there is nothing inherently right or wrong with "expecting that benefit of the doubt".

Where is the injustice? It is found in people's experience - if you were to experience a situation where you were denied the presumption of innocence, that is unjust and therefore wrong. Therefore it is the denial of a presumption of innocence, the presumption of guilt or at least apathy, which gives "white male privilege" and "white male culture" their negative connotations.
I think it's more a matter of assuming that everyone else has the same experience, and that therefore complaints based on others' actual experience must not be warranted.

Nothing wrong with expecting a presumption of innocence, no. Something wrong with expecting everyone else to behave as if they're expecting a presumtion of innocence, yes. Something wrong with assuming that because in one's own experience one gets a presumption of innocence then there must not be any problem needing fixing about other people not getting it, very much yes.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:05 PM
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Again, what has that to do with white male culture?
Yeah, like I said at the beginning of the thread, I don't think the fundamental issue here really is about "white male culture", because I don't think there really is such a thing. Any more than "nonwhite male culture" is really a thing.

"Culture" implies some group with a particular shared cultural heritage, and "white" isn't a shared cultural heritage. There definitely are ethnic/culture groups that are generally classified as "white" that do have such a heritage, e.g., Swedish, Afrikaner, Bavarian, Italian-American, etc. So referring, e.g., to "Swedish male culture" or "Russian male culture" or "Basque male culture" makes sense because it means "social gender norms for males in Swedish culture" or whichever other culture group you're talking about.

But "white" and "nonwhite" are classifications that aren't really meaningfully defined except in relation to each other. Neither of them references a specific distinct cultural heritage.

So we can talk about "white male privilege", as you note, or about cultural expectations of white male dominance that form part of white male privilege, or about "X male culture" where X is some specific culture group usually identified as racially white, but I don't think it's accurate to describe any of those as "white male culture".
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:07 PM
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One of the invisible but important features of a dominant culture is that it, and it alone, gets to define what 'the other' is. Women are other. Blacks are other. Latinos are other, Asians are other. Etc. A great deal of the whatever-liberation focus is to be able to define yourselves, not have white males define you (and if you are a different 'color', then white women also get to define you).

It seems like a kind of fixed psychological rule that the dominant culture cannot, will not, see what they themselves are, and how they affect those they think of as other. They just can't. Rather than see what reality is like for those they dominate, they tie themselves into the most bizarre logistical knots. Even the most enlightened and empathetic individuals have a surprising amount of difficulty with it.

White male culture is super easy to see from the outside, though. Nothing easier really.
I really think we're looking at it wrong; I think that it's not a culture unto itself, but rather the intersection of white culture/white privilege AND male dominant/male chauvinistic culture.

Look at it this way- men in general have privileges/advantages when compared to women across the board in the US. And white people have the same when compared to non-white people.

"White male culture" is just the conjunction of those two things, not its own separate unique thing that we should vilify white males for independent of the other two phenomena.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:17 PM
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Yeah, like I said at the beginning of the thread, I don't think the fundamental issue here really is about "white male culture", because I don't think there really is such a thing. Any more than "nonwhite male culture" is really a thing. .........

So we can talk about "white male privilege", as you note, or about cultural expectations of white male dominance that form part of white male privilege, or about "X male culture" where X is some specific culture group usually identified as racially white, but I don't think it's accurate to describe any of those as "white male culture".
You make a point here, but although I admit it'd be very hard to generalize about "white male culture" it's not impossible.

And the Op asked about white male culture not white privilege.

So, if you are saying you can't define white male culture- which i admit is difficult and slippery, then isnt coming here to change the thread into white privilege more than a bit of a hijack? And have we not discussed white privilege in several thread?
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:45 PM
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So, if you are saying you can't define white male culture- which i admit is difficult and slippery, then isnt coming here to change the thread into white privilege more than a bit of a hijack?
No, of course it isn't. Re-read the start of the OP:
Quote:
Part of the present-day brouhaha in the US over immigration (etc) seems to stem from fears held by whites, especially white males, over losing majority as non-white immigrants enter the country, and/or non-white birth rates exceed those of whites. This is apparently a very real existential and/or cultural threat to a certain swath of this group, and has of course been credited with driving some of the current populist enthusiasm, not just in the US but abroad as well. I've wondered at the perceived consequences from this "threat." For instance, what kind of "white male culture" is really under threat of being diminished?
My point is, as I said back in my first post in this thread, that these "fears" among "whites, especially white males" about "losing majority" don't stem from any looming threats to "white male culture", because there isn't really any such thing as "white male culture". The source of these fears is our society's entrenched cultural expectation of white male dominance, which is a different thing.

Whether or not fishing and golf and mayonnaise constitute some kind of identifiable "white male culture" is not really germane to the question the OP was asking. Which is why most of the posters in this thread have all along been discussing instead issues relating to the traditional high status of white males in American culture, so it seems a bit late to start calling that a "hijack".
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Old 07-30-2019, 05:03 PM
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One of the invisible but important features of a dominant culture is that it, and it alone, gets to define what 'the other' is. Women are other. Blacks are other. Latinos are other, Asians are other. Etc. A great deal of the whatever-liberation focus is to be able to define yourselves, not have white males define you (and if you are a different 'color', then white women also get to define you).



It seems like a kind of fixed psychological rule that the dominant culture cannot, will not, see what they themselves are, and how they affect those they think of as other. They just can't. Rather than see what reality is like for those they dominate, they tie themselves into the most bizarre logistical knots. Even the most enlightened and empathetic individuals have a surprising amount of difficulty with it.



White male culture is super easy to see from the outside, though. Nothing easier really.
Are there specific attributes of white male culture that you can point to? You seem to be saying that it exists but only those other than white males can accurately define it. From your post I assume that you are not a white male, so I'm curious as to what your definition is.
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Old 08-01-2019, 09:40 AM
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Yeah, like I said at the beginning of the thread, I don't think the fundamental issue here really is about "white male culture", because I don't think there really is such a thing. Any more than "nonwhite male culture" is really a thing.
OMG, don't be so PC. There are things that are inherently White, Black, Chinese, Japanese, Canadian, Greek, etc culture. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many movies or music that tend to be specific to one culture. They don't necessarily define every last person who could be characterized by that demographic. But they present a set of shared experiences and history that are familiar enough that people recognize them.


If I were to characterize a "White Male Culture", at least how I experienced it for my generation I would describe the following:

First, I am primarily talking about non-ethnically identifiable American working through upper middle class culture. As a member of Gen-X, my POV is also skewed towards people born between 1965 and 1985.

* Primarily grew up in suburbs of large cities and small towns.
* Typically being the demographic majority, never really thought about race.
* You spent most of your childhood playing with your friends around town getting into various adventures, involved in various sports and other activities and talking about how you can't wait to get out of that town.
* Everyone's dad worked. Some, maybe most of your friend's mom worked.
* Oddly enough, racist, sexist, homophobic jokes and comments were acceptable, but not in front of actual minorities, women, or LGBTwhatever people.
* Tended to listen to various forms of rock music (classic rock, metal, prog rock, hard rock, alt rock, indie rock, new wave, punk, so on and so forth).
* High school tended to be a "jockocracy". Much of young people's self was viewed by how well they did or did not fit into that social structure.
* Drinking, smoking pot and maybe cocaine if you were from a more affluent town was "cool". Harder drugs not so much.
* Unless you are adopting some subculture uniform (Goth, punk, metal head, grunge, whatever) clothing tends to be fairly neutral styles, like what you might find in a J Crew, Gap or Banana Republic.
* There was a general expectation of a strong correlation between academic and professional success. Even if it wasn't considered "cool", it was generally recognized that the "nerds" would likely go on to college and get decent corporate jobs.
* Young people tended to leave town after graduating high school, whether it was for college, the military or to just start their life somewhere. Still living in town 5 years after high school was considered unusual.
* College was alternately viewed as a pressure cooker of achievement to prepare you for your job in the "real world" and a summer camp country club to party for 4 years.
* Your 20s are typically spent living in a major city like New York, Boston or Chicago where you are both building your career and "finding yourself".
* If you didn't marry your high school or college sweetheart, you spend your 20s and possibly much of your 30s in a series of one night stand hookups and not so great relationships until you find "the one".
* When you are ready to settle down, you typically move out to some small town or suburb with your wife, have some kids and start the cycle over again.
* White women tend to identify with movies like any John Hughes film, When Harry Met Sally, Sleepless in Seattle, You've Got Mail (really any Meg Ryan romcom by this point), etc
* White men tend to identify with any John Hughes film (whether they admit it or not), Fast Times at Ridgemont High, Animal House, Caddyshack, Van Wilder, Swingers, Old School, 40 Year Old Virgin, The Hangover, etc.


Now looking at such a lifestyle from the outside, it would appear relatively dull and safe in a way that people on the outside would want to aspire to, but may feel excluded from. So I think the intent is that this should be more of a "Middle Class AMERICAN" lifestyle than simply a Middle Class WHITE American lifestyle.

Also, looking back, there was a lot of casual sexism, classism, racism, homophobia and lack of cultural diversity that isn't desirable or acceptable these days.

Last edited by msmith537; 08-01-2019 at 09:41 AM.
  #121  
Old 08-01-2019, 12:02 PM
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OMG, don't be so PC. There are things that are inherently White, Black, Chinese, Japanese, Canadian, Greek, etc culture. Otherwise we wouldn't have so many movies or music that tend to be specific to one culture. They don't necessarily define every last person who could be characterized by that demographic. But they present a set of shared experiences and history that are familiar enough that people recognize them.


If I were to characterize a "White Male Culture", at least how I experienced it for my generation I would describe the following:
....
Now looking at such a lifestyle from the outside, it would appear relatively dull and safe in a way that people on the outside would want to aspire to, but may feel excluded from. So I think the intent is that this should be more of a "Middle Class AMERICAN" lifestyle than simply a Middle Class WHITE American lifestyle.

Also, looking back, there was a lot of casual sexism, classism, racism, homophobia and lack of cultural diversity that isn't desirable or acceptable these days.
Yep, that pretty much defines it.
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Old 08-01-2019, 04:04 PM
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There are things that are inherently White, Black, Chinese, Japanese, Canadian, Greek, etc culture.
Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Canadian, sure. "Black" as in a shared culture of all the social/ethnic groups currently identified as racially black? No, not in any meaningful way. "White" as in in a shared culture of all the social/ethnic groups currently identified as racially white? No, not in any meaningful way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537
If I were to characterize a "White Male Culture", at least how I experienced it for my generation I would describe the following:

First, I am primarily talking about non-ethnically identifiable American working through upper middle class culture. As a member of Gen-X, my POV is also skewed towards people born between 1965 and 1985.
I completely agree that it's reasonable to talk about some cultural factors that are common to many of today's middle-aged working- and middle-class American non-urban, non-rural, non-Latino, non-"ethnically"-identified white males, especially those born between 1965 and 1985. However, that is a far more specific designation than simply "white male".

And even with those additional restrictions, most of the "cultural factors" you describe also broadly apply to a lot of groups that don't meet all those restrictions. Some of them apply equally well to, e.g., Latino and/or black men of similar demographics, and some of them apply equally well to women of that era also.
  #123  
Old 08-01-2019, 09:28 PM
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It's about racism again???
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Old 08-01-2019, 10:00 PM
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Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Canadian, sure. "Black" as in a shared culture of all the social/ethnic groups currently identified as racially black? No, not in any meaningful way. "White" as in in a shared culture of all the social/ethnic groups currently identified as racially white? No, not in any meaningful way.

....

In other words, after msmith537 has proven you wrong, and shown clearly there is a such a thing as white culture, you want to get back to your hijack about racism again?

Why fight the hypothetical? If you think there is no such thing as white culture, why are you here? You could, if you should so choose, start your own thread about white male privilege, to join the dozens already out there.

Last edited by DrDeth; 08-01-2019 at 10:02 PM.
  #125  
Old 08-01-2019, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Rayks Marcial View Post
It's about racism again???
With some people, it's always about racism. They have exactly one card and only one card to play- and it's getting kinda worn out and grimy.
  #126  
Old 08-01-2019, 10:50 PM
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In other words, after msmith537 has proven you wrong, and shown clearly there is a such a thing as white culture
Nonsense; msmith537 didn't even come close to "showing there is such a thing as white culture". As I already pointed out, he listed a bunch of cultural factors that are common to many of today's middle-aged working- and middle-class American non-urban, non-rural, non-Latino, non-"ethnically"-identified white males, especially those born between 1965 and 1985. But, as I also pointed out, many of those factors apply equally well to, e.g., Latino and/or black men of similar demographics, and some of them apply equally well to women of that era also.

So no, what msmith537 described wasn't "white culture", and it wasn't "white male culture": it was a bunch of cultural factors that a particular restricted subset of a particular generation of American white males, along with large numbers of American white females and/or American nonwhite people, are apt to have in common.

Trying to equate that scattershot set of characteristics with a coherent description of a culture specific to white males as a group just shows how desperately you're grasping at straws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDeth
If you think there is no such thing as white culture, why are you here?
Well, for the same reason that all the other posters in this thread who are saying that its core issue is "white privilege" and related concepts are here, although somehow you don't seem to be pursuing such a personal vendetta about it with anyone but me.

Namely, we're arguing that the phenomenon the OP started this thread to ask about---i.e., "fears held by whites, especially white males, over losing majority as non-white immigrants enter the country, and/or non-white birth rates exceed those of whites"---is not really about threats to a specific cultural heritage, but rather about potential loss of racial (and gender) privilege.

This argument is strengthened by the fact that nobody in this thread who's trying to claim that "white male culture" is a legitimate specific cultural heritage distinctive to white males as a group has managed to articulate what it supposedly consists of. So the issue of racial privilege wasn't in fact a hijack back at the start of this thread, and is still not a hijack.

Last edited by Kimstu; 08-01-2019 at 10:54 PM.
  #127  
Old 08-02-2019, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
Chinese, Japanese, Greek, Canadian, sure. "Black" as in a shared culture of all the social/ethnic groups currently identified as racially black? No, not in any meaningful way. "White" as in in a shared culture of all the social/ethnic groups currently identified as racially white? No, not in any meaningful way.
I didn't say "all the social/ethnic groups currently identified as racially white". I would characterize it more as "Middle Class American culture that is largely white". I'm really talking about people who grew up in the USA within the past 50 years. Otherwise you are correct. They may have stronger cultural ties to some other country.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
So no, what msmith537 described wasn't "white culture", and it wasn't "white male culture": it was a bunch of cultural factors that a particular restricted subset of a particular generation of American white males, along with large numbers of American white females and/or American nonwhite people, are apt to have in common.

Trying to equate that scattershot set of characteristics with a coherent description of a culture specific to white males as a group just shows how desperately you're grasping at straws.

What is a "culture" besides a "bunch of cultural factors that a particular restricted subset ...have in common"?

And it doesn't have to be "specific" to any group. Various cultures around the world share various traits and characteristics.
  #128  
Old 08-02-2019, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by tim-n-va View Post
White privileged is mostly being given the benefit of doubt, a second chance. White culture is expecting that benefit of the doubt.
Well put.
  #129  
Old 08-02-2019, 11:08 AM
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With some people, it's always about racism. They have exactly one card and only one card to play- and it's getting kinda worn out and grimy.

Bro, when the discussion is about racism, you gotta steel yourself for that race card coming down. I mean it's going to come down at some point, the only variable is how long woke people think they've got to spare your fee-fees, you feel me ?
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Last edited by Kobal2; 08-02-2019 at 11:08 AM.
  #130  
Old 08-02-2019, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DrDeth View Post
In other words, after msmith537 has proven you wrong, and shown clearly there is a such a thing as white culture, you want to get back to your hijack about racism again?

Why fight the hypothetical? If you think there is no such thing as white culture, why are you here? You could, if you should so choose, start your own thread about white male privilege, to join the dozens already out there.
As I pointed out earlier, there's nothing wrong with that definition of white male culture. The only problem is that it is incompatible with a negative connotation. It is possible to use "white male culture" without a negative connotation, but I don't think that is the case in the original post.

~Max
  #131  
Old 08-02-2019, 12:05 PM
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I'd go so far as to say that the OP is kind of off the mark; there's not any kind of inherent racism or sexism or anything there, at least as far as something that's consciously though about. Very, very few people in "white male culture" as msmith537 defined it, are going around thinking about race or sex at all.

If anything, it was/is a sort of comfortable ignorance- a kid growing up in that environment just has NO frame of reference for a lot of the trials and tribulations that say... a child of immigrants, or a child growing up in extreme poverty experiences, or as a different race.

I mean, I can intellectually think about growing up hungry, but I don't have a frame of reference- we ALWAYS had enough food to eat- at the very, very worst, it was that we were having something cheaper as we approached the next paycheck. But there wasn't any question or doubt about whether the next meal would be there. Same thing for stuff like shoes, clothes, school supplies and the like. I might not have got the "cool" shoes, but I never had ones that didn't fit, or were worn out or anything like that, even when my father had his stretch of unemployment.

And the whole system is more or less structured to teach the lesson to kids that if you worked hard, and toed the line on certain things, then you'd be successful job-wise. Not coincidentally, that's why people are so disaffected with their jobs- they got out, and found out that it was only somewhat true- yes, you get paid and keep your job, but it's still the same godawful popularity contest that it was in high school, but now your paycheck/job responsibilities ride on it. Or that a lot of the time, it's more about how you play the "game", and not your actual work product.

So it's just hard to effectively conceive of that kind of thing- your reality growing up in it is pretty much that it's how the world works. Everything else is strange and outside your frame of reference. So the natural reaction is to refactor everything to put it within your frame of reference- people are poor, well that has to be because they're lazy and/or stupid. There's not really another explanation within your frame of reference. We all know that's not the case, but I'd also say that the people around here have expanded our frames of reference to understand stuff like systemic inequality, etc...

I just think it's a mistake to attribute malice where at least in my experience, there's just ignorance and unawareness, and some in this thread are attributing a lot more malice than I think there is, at least for people born after about 1965 or so.
  #132  
Old 08-02-2019, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post
I'd go so far as to say that the OP is kind of off the mark; there's not any kind of inherent racism or sexism or anything there, at least as far as something that's consciously though about. Very, very few people in "white male culture" as msmith537 defined it, are going around thinking about race or sex at all.
Maybe not race...


Quote:
Originally Posted by bump View Post
If anything, it was/is a sort of comfortable ignorance- a kid growing up in that environment just has NO frame of reference for a lot of the trials and tribulations that say... a child of immigrants, or a child growing up in extreme poverty experiences, or as a different race.
My description is largely based on my experience growing up in a relatively upper-middle class household. But I can certainly think of some aspects of "white culture" that I may have witnessed or experienced growing up that aren't all rosy. You mentioned unemployment. I would suggest that culturally, white men have traditionally experienced being unemployed differently from black men. Not really knowing any unemployed black men myself, I have to reference the movies where it is portrayed as a long-term systematic issue. In contrast, white men are usually portrayed as unemployed in an almost comedic "fish out of water" context. Movies like Mr Mom, Gung-Ho, Trading Places or Fun With Dick & Jane (original and remake) where the protagonist often finds themselves unjustly terminated, has to adapt to an increasingly absurd set of circumstances interacting with less affluent classes of people as their standard of living declines, and often wins their lifestyle back through some ridiculous scheme.

But one thing that is rarely portrayed in white culture is the concept of white poverty as a systematic issue. If a white person is destitute in film, it's usually because they are a petty criminal, drug addict or fuckup. Typically "poor" white people in media are working class blue collar laborers working in mills and factories. IOW, still supporting their families earning a modest living. Not milling about their neighborhood Boyz in the Hood or Friday style.
  #133  
Old 08-03-2019, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by msmith537 View Post
What is a "culture" besides a "bunch of cultural factors that a particular restricted subset ...have in common"?
That bunch of cultural factors is part of the culture of that particular subset, e.g., middle-aged working- and middle-class American non-urban, non-rural, non-Latino, non-"ethnically"-identified white males, especially those born between 1965 and 1985. You can't equate that to the culture of a much larger group, such as white males in general. (Especially when many of those cultural factors, as I noted, are also shared by other groups that are nonwhite and/or nonmale.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by msmith537
And it doesn't have to be "specific" to any group. Various cultures around the world share various traits and characteristics.
Well, if we're going to try to define the "culture" of a particular specified group of people as distinct from others, then yeah, we kind of do have to focus on the cultural factors that are specific to that group.

Last edited by Kimstu; 08-03-2019 at 07:49 PM.
  #134  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
There are PLENTY of countries out there where white males are NOT dominant.

So I'd guess you would prefer Iran, Saudi Arabia, China... hell most of anywhere in Asia, middle east, Africa, Central and South America.

Which one do you prefer?
How about Texas?

This state hasn't been majority white in over a decade - the only thing which keeps up that fiction is the classification of hispanic people as white... which I see you corrected in the above post.

So, living here, in a non-white state, I have to ask you... what was your point again?

In 2010, Texas had 11.4 million non-Hispanic whites and 13.7 million minorities.
In 2019, Texas has 12.06 million non-Hispanic whites and 17.1 million minorities.
In 2022, Texas will have 12.27 million non-Hispanic whites, 12.3 million Hispanics, and 18.4 million total minorities (including hispanics).

2022 will be the year which Hispanics outnumber anglos in the "white people" department, which means white people won't even be the majority white people anymore... at least, not in Texas.

Last edited by JohnT; 08-13-2019 at 03:54 PM.
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