Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:09 PM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 8,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...I didn't suggest you treat poetry as policy. I asked if Urbanredneck agreed with the sentiment. Do you agree with the sentiment? Do you believe in compassion and nobility? Do you think that "Mexico and Central America with millions of people there desperate for a better life" should not have the opportunity to seek a better life in America?
I don’t mind migration if there are limits and controls that are actually enforced. I am not for open borders. If those countries are that bad that tens of millions need to flee I am not opposed to a fundamental restructure of those countries.
  #252  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:10 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uzi View Post
I think a better testament would be staying in the troubled country and fixing it rather than breaking other people's laws just because it's easier.
...seeking asylum doesn't (necessarily) involve breaking any laws.
  #253  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:16 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
I don’t mind migration if there are limits and controls that are actually enforced. I am not for open borders. If those countries are that bad that tens of millions need to flee I am not opposed to a fundamental restructure of those countries.
That's good, but what would you say to Mexican farmers who got crushed out of business by American ag subsidies? What would you say to Central American migrants who've lived under American-backed right wing regimes that later devolved into failed states? Obviously, not everything that happens south of the border is big, bad America's fault, but there are probably literally millions of people who have been economically and literally screwed by the United States, and many of these people just want to live where it's safe and where they can save some cash. That doesn't entitle them to break our immigration laws, but I think they are entitled to some sort of political solution beyond "restructuring their country." It's worth pointing out that until some Republicans ran on racism starting around 2006, the GOP actually had some not-so-bad ideas and GWB clearly tried to be part of the solution on immigration reform. Alas, the GOP became the party of Tom Tancredo and Steve King.

The problem, octopus, is that they really are better off without American involvement in any kind of restructuring; the other problem is, if they restructure in ways that are deemed "communist" or detrimental to American economic and political interests, we have a tendency to undermine their stability. So the solution's a wee bit more complex than what you've flippantly tossed out.

Last edited by asahi; 08-13-2019 at 09:18 PM.
  #254  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:20 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
I don’t mind migration if there are limits and controls that are actually enforced. I am not for open borders. If those countries are that bad that tens of millions need to flee I am not opposed to a fundamental restructure of those countries.
...the current administration has cut aide to the countries that need help with a "fundumental restructure." Do you consider that a prudent move or a problematic one?

The current administration has dropped the number of refugees it will accept from 100,000 to 15,000. There are over 25.9 million refugees in the world, 3.5 million people are seeking asylum. Do you consider only accepting 15,000 people to be a noble and considerate ideal? Do you think you could do better, or is that a number you feel comfortable with?
  #255  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:15 PM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 8,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
That's good, but what would you say to Mexican farmers who got crushed out of business by American ag subsidies? What would you say to Central American migrants who've lived under American-backed right wing regimes that later devolved into failed states? Obviously, not everything that happens south of the border is big, bad America's fault, but there are probably literally millions of people who have been economically and literally screwed by the United States, and many of these people just want to live where it's safe and where they can save some cash. That doesn't entitle them to break our immigration laws, but I think they are entitled to some sort of political solution beyond "restructuring their country." It's worth pointing out that until some Republicans ran on racism starting around 2006, the GOP actually had some not-so-bad ideas and GWB clearly tried to be part of the solution on immigration reform. Alas, the GOP became the party of Tom Tancredo and Steve King.

The problem, octopus, is that they really are better off without American involvement in any kind of restructuring; the other problem is, if they restructure in ways that are deemed "communist" or detrimental to American economic and political interests, we have a tendency to undermine their stability. So the solution's a wee bit more complex than what you've flippantly tossed out.
It’s not flippant if you look at the numbers. 8 billion is a lot of people. 10-12 billion on a planet with rising sea levels? Tell me, aside from restructuring the globe or conceding our rule to a magical and benevolent A.I., how you fix what’s bound to happen in 40-60 years:
  #256  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:16 PM
octopus's Avatar
octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 8,596
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...the current administration has cut aide to the countries that need help with a "fundumental restructure." Do you consider that a prudent move or a problematic one?

The current administration has dropped the number of refugees it will accept from 100,000 to 15,000. There are over 25.9 million refugees in the world, 3.5 million people are seeking asylum. Do you consider only accepting 15,000 people to be a noble and considerate ideal? Do you think you could do better, or is that a number you feel comfortable with?
I think we can take in and assimilate more than 15,000. The US alone probably could, if fear mongering subsided, take in that 3.5 million.
  #257  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:20 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
I think we can take in and assimilate more than 15,000. The US alone probably could, if fear mongering subsided, take in that 3.5 million.
...awesome I agree. My country (New Zealand) also doesn't take in as many refugees as it could, we could could do much better here and my government really needs to do better as well.
  #258  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:24 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Molyneux and Southern downplayed the nigh-genocidal violence of colonists against native Australians.
...here was the live-tweets of someone who was in the audience as these two spoke:

https://twitter.com/simoncopland/sta...537536?lang=en

They came to New Zealand just after that disgraceful performance and they arrived to protests, having their venue canceled, and the only thing they left behind were memorable moments like this ( they didn't know what a Māori person looks like) and this (demanding to know why a former Māori politician was in the lobby to a media outlet. The moment he took his glasses off were gold)

In the end it didn't work out well for these grifters.
  #259  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:25 PM
Ale is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 5,236
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
They don't have to take over the entire US, whatever that means. Just the Oval office, which they've done.
Didn't that already happen with GWB?

People, in this very message board, were absolutely, positively certain that was the case then, and now, it's just people tilting at windmills.
  #260  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:40 PM
Ale is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Bangkok
Posts: 5,236
As for the OP, and connected to my previous post, the biggest threat you face is the descent into LARPing politics.
  #261  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:20 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post

“Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!” cries she
With silent lips. “Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

Do you agree with that sentiment? ?
In general, yes. But remember that is a poem. A quote. It is not a law. It is not a public policy voted by anyone or passed by congress. It is not part of the constitution or part of the bill of rights.

Its at most a general concept or principle BUT like all concepts, must also be balanced out thru reality.

We HAVE and continue to help millions do just that. But the US has come to a point we can NOT take any more. WE ARE FULL!

We can NOT TAKE ALL THE WORLDS POOR.

BTW, we will NOT eliminate world poverty thru immigration.
  #262  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:26 AM
Airbeck is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 2,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
We HAVE and continue to help millions do just that. But the US has come to a point we can NOT take any more. WE ARE FULL!
No we are NOT. That is a lie that you have been told.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/ali-...and-prosperity
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes

Last edited by Airbeck; 08-14-2019 at 10:26 AM.
  #263  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:29 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...awesome I agree. My country (New Zealand) also doesn't take in as many refugees as it could, we could could do much better here and my government really needs to do better as well.
Is it wrong to set limits on how many you will take and for how long? Can you not have rules on where they will stay, what rules they will follow, and what government services they will be provided? Might you serve them better by helping them solve issues in their home countries?
  #264  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:32 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
No we are NOT. That is a lie that you have been told.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/ali-...and-prosperity
How many illegals are in your hometown? How many more classrooms and teachers must your schools have for them?

I have no problem with good green card programs for temporary workers.
  #265  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:37 AM
Airbeck is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago - South Side
Posts: 2,818
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
How many illegals are in your hometown? How many more classrooms and teachers must your schools have for them?

I have no problem with good green card programs for temporary workers.
So no comment on the cite then?

Republicans don't want immigrants because they believe they will vote Democratic once they become citizens and it will make it harder for them to win elections. That is the root of all of this. We are not overrun with "illegals". They are not a burden. Immigrants benefit our country. This report was buried by the Trump administration because it showed all of this fear mongering to be lies:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/18/u...ort-trump.html

You are being lied to and manipulated to be angry and afraid of immigrants, not because they are a problem for America, but because the GOP fears they are a problem for electoral prospects. At least understand and be honest about what's really going on here.
__________________
"Sometimes I think that the surest sign of intelligent life in the Universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." - Calvin and Hobbes
  #266  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:37 AM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ale View Post
Didn't that already happen with GWB?

People, in this very message board, were absolutely, positively certain that was the case then, and now, it's just people tilting at windmills.
No, the GWB people may or may not have been racists, but they were mainly big business corporate profit above morals types. Trump has white supremacists calling shots and determining official US policy.
  #267  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:42 AM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
How many illegals are in your hometown? How many more classrooms and teachers must your schools have for them?

I have no problem with good green card programs for temporary workers.
Let me ask you something... When folks take the time to do your research for you and provide you with factual information that is in direct contraction to what you think you know or have been told elsewhere, do you actually spend time and energy reading these new (to you) sources? Does it have any impact on you at all with respect to changing your opinion in light of the new evidence?

I ask because you return to these discussions time and again but never with any new insight or sign that you are willing to take in any information that contradicts your already established views. You don't even engage, really; Just dump and run without so much as a courtesy of a thoughtful response. I'm curious as to what you get out of this.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #268  
Old 08-14-2019, 11:53 AM
Red Wiggler is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
So no comment on the cite then?

Republicans don't want immigrants because they believe they will vote Democratic once they become citizens and it will make it harder for them to win elections. That is the root of all of this. We are not overrun with "illegals". They are not a burden. Immigrants benefit our country. This report was buried by the Trump administration because it showed all of this fear mongering to be lies:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/18/u...ort-trump.html

You are being lied to and manipulated to be angry and afraid of immigrants, not because they are a problem for America, but because the GOP fears they are a problem for electoral prospects. At least understand and be honest about what's really going on here.
This. All this. We're nowhere near full. People who want to come here and make better lives for themselves are who we are.
  #269  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:25 PM
TimfromNapa is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
https://forward.com/fast-forward/429...arlottesville/

White supremacists have murdered 73 people since the Charlottesville march. I don't believe any other ideology, including extremist versions of Islam, comes close. I've thought that the thread title has been accurate for pretty much all of American history, but it's becoming more urgently dangerous in the last couple of years, as compared to recent decades.

This has always been the worst of America, and the biggest ideological danger to Americans, IMO. If you disagree, what other ideology do you think possess such a clear and deadly threat to Americans?
Let's see. The greatest ideological threat is not necessarily the greatest physical threat, so we can leave body counts out of the question. I believe the greatest ideological threat is religious fundamentalism. Christian, Muslim, Jewish? I don't care what brand it is. It runs counter to logic, ignores demonstrated facts, and pushes a sociopolitical agenda that runs counter to our Constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Oh, and sometimes militant fundamentalists of all stripe kill for attention or to suppress or punish opposition. They really suck.
  #270  
Old 08-14-2019, 04:39 PM
etasyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimfromNapa View Post
Let's see. The greatest ideological threat is not necessarily the greatest physical threat, so we can leave body counts out of the question. I believe the greatest ideological threat is religious fundamentalism. Christian, Muslim, Jewish? I don't care what brand it is. It runs counter to logic, ignores demonstrated facts, and pushes a sociopolitical agenda that runs counter to our Constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Oh, and sometimes militant fundamentalists of all stripe kill for attention or to suppress or punish opposition. They really suck.
What part of that isn't true of white supremacists?
  #271  
Old 08-14-2019, 08:02 PM
Banquet Bear's Avatar
Banquet Bear is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Posts: 5,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
In general, yes. But remember that is a poem. A quote. It is not a law. It is not a public policy voted by anyone or passed by congress. It is not part of the constitution or part of the bill of rights.
...thank you for informing me that a poem is just a poem. I don't know what I would have done if you weren't here to inform me that a poem written over 100 years ago is not actually enshrined in law. I asked you if you agreed with the sentiment or not. It was a simple question. It appears that you do agree with the sentiment. Which makes your opinion all the more confusing.

Quote:
Its at most a general concept or principle BUT like all concepts, must also be balanced out thru reality.
Do people seeking out a better life in the "Land of the free" not happen in your reality? Does your reality preclude helping people that need help?


Quote:
We HAVE and continue to help millions do just that. But the US has come to a point we can NOT take any more. WE ARE FULL!
Full?

The United States has 9 million people living abroad. If those 9 million decided to come home one day do you have enough room to fit them?

Can you quantify "full?" I can do that with a glass of water. If the glass is empty it "isn't full." If I pour water into it and the water over-flows, that glass "is full." So if the United States is full, then what about the hundreds of kilometres of empty land across the borders that the President wants to build a wall on? There is nothing there right? How about instead of building a wall you built a massive housing complex instead?

I find your statement that the United States "is full" and that "you can't take any more people" to be an extraordinary statement. You've got the land. America is the 10th richest country in the world. It has the resources.

So can you objectively demonstrate that the US can't take any more people?

And if you can't take any more people, why are you still taking more people? They are still coming in. But you aren't throwing white Australians that have over-stayed into the detention camps: why is that exactly? We should set up detention camps set up in the middle of New York, where white Europeans are thrown into tiny cells that are standing room only and not given access to showers for weeks on end. America is full. Why are you not demanding this?

Quote:
We can NOT TAKE ALL THE WORLDS POOR.
Hey, guess what?

Nobody is asking the United States to TAKE ALL THE WORLDS POOR.

The current US administration has decided that it will only accept 15,000 of the world's poor this year. America, one of the richest, most powerful nations in the world, that has 38 military bases in 15 countries, that has invaded and plundered countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, that has covertly toppled leaders in Iran, will only take 15,000 refugees.

That's pathetic. Its the action of a parasite. Me and Octopus are on separate sides of the political debate but he/she is absolutely right here: America can afford to accept more than 15,000 people. It can definitely accept the figure set by the Obama administration (of 100,000) as they had been doing that regularly before. I would like to think that you could accept more than that. Its not only the compassionate thing to do, but as the country that is directly caused for many of the bad things that have happened in the world, the responsible one.

Quote:
BTW, we will NOT eliminate world poverty thru immigration.
A strawman. A great big fat strawman.

Quote:
Is it wrong to set limits on how many you will take
Nope.

Quote:
and for how long?
What on earth does this mean?

Quote:
Can you not have rules on where they will stay, what rules they will follow, and what government services they will be provided?
Who is suggesting otherwise?

Quote:
Might you serve them better by helping them solve issues in their home countries?
Nope. The New Zealand economy is tiny. Our influence on a global scale is insignificant. We do significantly invest in our Pacific neighbours, both logistically and financially. We provide Peacekeepers around the world. We do our part on the world stage. We definitely could do more.

But we would serve a genuine asylum seeker better by granting them asylum. Because we are not going to solve the issues in their home country overnight. But if we send the asylum seeker home overnight there is a good chance they will end up dead.

And if you really think "helping them solve issues in their home countries" is the solution, can I suggest you tell the Trump administration that cutting aid to countries that need help solving their issues is are really fucking stupid thing to do?
  #272  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:06 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,962
An incredible new article goes into great detail in documenting (among other things) the terrible toll, in human suffering and human life, taken by white supremacism in America:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...democracy.html

It also posits, with a very well supported argument, IMO, that no group has done more for the cause of freedom in America than black Americans.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-15-2019 at 07:07 AM.
  #273  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:07 AM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 195
In my mind, the only questions of immigrants that we should ask (and make pretty sure of), "Are you going to be a burden of the financial type on the US of A?" "Are you going to follow all the laws of the US of A?"

If the answer to those are no and yes, we could let a lot more in. The problem is that most of those answers won't be no and yes for a good chunk of those wanting to migrate.
  #274  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:14 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
In my mind, the only questions of immigrants that we should ask (and make pretty sure of), "Are you going to be a burden of the financial type on the US of A?" "Are you going to follow all the laws of the US of A?"

If the answer to those are no and yes, we could let a lot more in. The problem is that most of those answers won't be no and yes for a good chunk of those wanting to migrate.
I see it as a math problem, and in my understanding the math overwhelmingly favors a permissive and "liberal" immigration policy.

For example, let's say X is the overall economic benefit wrought by all beneficial (from an economic perspective -- i.e. industrious folks who generate far more financial activity than the social benefits they consume) migrants, and Y is the overall economic drain (including criminal activity) wrought by all non-beneficial migrants. But those aren't the only factors. There's also Z, the cost of administrating the border and trying to sort out which migrants fall into which category.

In my undestanding of the relevant statistics, the more restrictive the immigration system is, the overall benefit to the country goes down, as a combination of reduction in X and increase in Z greatly overwhelms any savings by reduction in Y.
  #275  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:08 AM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 61,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
In my mind, the only questions of immigrants that we should ask (and make pretty sure of), "Are you going to be a burden of the financial type on the US of A?" "Are you going to follow all the laws of the US of A?"

If the answer to those are no and yes, we could let a lot more in. The problem is that most of those answers won't be no and yes for a good chunk of those wanting to migrate.
Are you saying that a good chunk of them will say that they won't follow our laws?
  #276  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:10 AM
thorny locust is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Upstate New York
Posts: 969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
In my mind, the only questions of immigrants that we should ask (and make pretty sure of), "Are you going to be a burden of the financial type on the US of A?" "Are you going to follow all the laws of the US of A?"

If the answer to those are no and yes, we could let a lot more in. The problem is that most of those answers won't be no and yes for a good chunk of those wanting to migrate.
Plenty of people who are likely to need temporary financial assistance are also likely to be of long-term financial benefit.
  #277  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:58 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
No we are NOT. That is a lie that you have been told.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/ali-...and-prosperity
It's the notion of scarcity, which is the fear-based world that informs the way conservatives, particularly nativists, think. I'm sometimes amazed at how conservatives can bloviate about the free market's creative forces on one hand and then talk about scarcity on the other.
  #278  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:41 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
Let me ask you something... When folks take the time to do your research for you and provide you with factual information that is in direct contraction to what you think you know or have been told elsewhere, do you actually spend time and energy reading these new (to you) sources? Does it have any impact on you at all with respect to changing your opinion in light of the new evidence?

I ask because you return to these discussions time and again but never with any new insight or sign that you are willing to take in any information that contradicts your already established views. You don't even engage, really; Just dump and run without so much as a courtesy of a thoughtful response. I'm curious as to what you get out of this.
You cherry pick some facts and then get mad when I dont accept them?

And yes we ARE full. Just look at all the pictures of homeless around the country and the massive traffic jams especially in California and then tell me why we need to bring in a million more. Not to mention all or most of our state and national parks have waiting lists and traffic jams. Why? Because again, we are full.

No - dont cherry pick some article. Just look at those videos and tell me why we need to bring in a million more people?
  #279  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:44 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
It's the notion of scarcity, which is the fear-based world that informs the way conservatives, particularly nativists, think. I'm sometimes amazed at how conservatives can bloviate about the free market's creative forces on one hand and then talk about scarcity on the other.
The article mentions nothing about overcrowding and homelessness. Yes, immigration has tended to be good but our system is coming close to a breaking point where new immigrants will overwhelm our ability to provide and this will cause big problems.

Just look at videos of all the homeless and the overcrowding in California and tell me why we need a million more.
  #280  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:47 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
..

Nope. The New Zealand economy is tiny. Our influence on a global scale is insignificant. We do significantly invest in our Pacific neighbours, both logistically and financially. We provide Peacekeepers around the world. We do our part on the world stage. We definitely could do more.
I didnt realize you were from New Zealand.

What gives you the right to tell me how I should vote and feel as an American?

What gives you the right to quote the Statue of liberty?

You dont live here. You dont see our overcrowded roads, parks, and schools.

PS. I suspect if we were not already taking in millions across our southern border we might have room to take in more than 15,000 refugees.

Last edited by Urbanredneck; 08-15-2019 at 02:48 PM.
  #281  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:49 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Yes, immigration has tended to be good but our system is coming close to a breaking point where new immigrants will overwhelm our ability to provide and this will cause big problems.
On a scale of 1-10, the problem with "our ability to provide" would probably have immigrants rated at like a 2.5 and Republican efforts to intentionally undermine the social safety net at like a 9.

For example, immigrants without insurance going to the emergency room for non-emergencies is not a good thing. Republican efforts to strip health care from 20 million Americans is a damned disaster.
  #282  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:50 PM
bobot's Avatar
bobot is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Chicago-ish
Posts: 8,523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
...And yes we ARE full. ...
I mentioned in another thread about a recent drive I made from the south suburbs of Chicago, through central Illinois to Indianapolis. Boy, full is an understatement. Heading south through Illinois every hundred or so miles a town would pop up out of nowhere, home to- I'm guessing- 2 or 3 thousand people. It was amazing. And don't get me started about this place I went through called Champaign-Urbana. I'm guessing again that that place must have had 100,000 people. And there it was, RIGHT in between Chicago and Indianapolis! Full to the brim we are.
  #283  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:52 PM
Ravenman is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I didnt realize you were from New Zealand.

What gives you the right to tell me how I should vote and feel as an American?

What gives you the right to quote the Statue of liberty?

You dont live here. You dont see our overcrowded roads, parks, and schools.

PS. I suspect if we were not already taking in millions across our southern border we might have room to take in more than 15,000 refugees.
Why don't you defend your opposition to the poem on the Statute of Liberty on its "merits," rather than telling foreigners not to speak to you?

Last edited by Ravenman; 08-15-2019 at 02:52 PM.
  #284  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:54 PM
manson1972's Avatar
manson1972 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Just look at videos of all the homeless and the overcrowding in California and tell me why we need a million more.
You do realize that there are 49 other states in the United States, right?
  #285  
Old 08-15-2019, 02:56 PM
Bone's Avatar
Bone is online now
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,571

Moderating


Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I didnt realize you were from New Zealand.

What gives you the right to tell me how I should vote and feel as an American?

What gives you the right to quote the Statue of liberty?

You dont live here. You dont see our overcrowded roads, parks, and schools.

PS. I suspect if we were not already taking in millions across our southern border we might have room to take in more than 15,000 refugees.
This is a forum that is open to anyone in the world, provided they post in English. Questioning a person's right to post based on where they are from is unacceptable in this forum. Do not do this again.

[/moderating]
  #286  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:01 PM
Bone's Avatar
Bone is online now
Extrajudicial
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 10,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
You cherry pick some facts and then get mad when I dont accept them?

And yes we ARE full. Just look at all the pictures of homeless around the country and the massive traffic jams especially in California and then tell me why we need to bring in a million more. Not to mention all or most of our state and national parks have waiting lists and traffic jams. Why? Because again, we are full.

No - dont cherry pick some article. Just look at those videos and tell me why we need to bring in a million more people?
You're criticizing cherry picking while simultaneously cherrypicking. It's meta.

America is hardly full. The idea is laughable. From here:

Quote:
America is the 146th most densely populated country on earth, sandwiched between Venezuela and Kyrgyzstan.
...
America’s population growth is increasingly concentrated in an ever-smaller number of counties, while the declines are spread across ever more counties. So though America’s population is growing overall, half of US counties are shrinking each year, and “over 50 million people, or 15% of the U.S. population, live in counties that have shrunk over the past decade.
There's even a picture to look at if you're into that kind of thing.
  #287  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:20 PM
etasyde is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
The article mentions nothing about overcrowding and homelessness. Yes, immigration has tended to be good but our system is coming close to a breaking point where new immigrants will overwhelm our ability to provide and this will cause big problems.
Overcrowding and homelessness is not a population issue. It's mostly intentional gross mismanagement from the fed and conservative politicians. The Fed's policy is to balloon asset prices as much as humanly possible, and that has made housing unaffordable to most. They've also obliterated interest rates, which makes everyone capable of borrowing money, which makes demand (those willing and able) to buy artificially high, further driving up asset prices. Where this was once risky, banks found out how to bundle this stuff up and sell it off before it blows up. You thought that stopped after 2008? Hah! Thank our conservative friends for making all the regulations toothless, then rolling them back when you weren't looking.

Speaking of conservatives, they have done everything in their power including union busting to keep wages down and therefore incapable of keeping up with the asset bubbles. Tax cuts (both federal and state level) prevent any kind of state-run intervention, not to mention laws (see California below) to prevent housing developments. Furthermore, our insane health-insurance system bankrupts enough people to deprive a fair amount of those who were able to scrape together enough to own a home, and now they're homeless.

So homelessness is a problem, but not because of population. It's because of gross mismanagement. Strange that the policies of the group that campaigns on "government doesn't work" makes government... not work.

*Note, I'm actually conflating Neoconservatives and Neoliberals into "conservatives" - not singling out the republican party. Most republicans accept the neocon economic model (specifically Reaganomics) as a religion, so they're mostly in this group, but this isn't actually an indictment of the republicans. Just those that follow Reagan's malarky. These also tend to be the loudest in opposition to immigration. Which is hilarious irony.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Just look at videos of all the homeless and the overcrowding in California and tell me why we need a million more.
In California specifically, that's just capitalism at work. Laws were passed to prevent the state from funding new housing developments in order to create artificial scarcity and prop up home values.
  #288  
Old 08-15-2019, 03:26 PM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
tell me why we need a million more.
Plenty of room for a million more people in Detroit alone.
  #289  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:17 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreysonCarlisle View Post
Plenty of room for a million more people in Detroit alone.
The people who are trying to immigrate are generally trying to get out of a shitty, dangerous place to somewhere nicer. Moving to Detroit would seem to frustrate that goal.
  #290  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:50 PM
Czarcasm's Avatar
Czarcasm is online now
Charter Member
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 61,668
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
The people who are trying to immigrate are generally trying to get out of a shitty, dangerous place to somewhere nicer. Moving to Detroit would seem to frustrate that goal.
Comparing the refugee's plight favorable to living in Detroit.
Classy.
  #291  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:10 PM
DigitalC is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Obamatopia
Posts: 11,102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
The article mentions nothing about overcrowding and homelessness. Yes, immigration has tended to be good but our system is coming close to a breaking point where new immigrants will overwhelm our ability to provide and this will cause big problems.

Just look at videos of all the homeless and the overcrowding in California and tell me why we need a million more.
Right, ignore actual facts and focus on random bullshit that has absolutely nothing to do with the issue. We need to bring a million more because it benefits us to do so, pictures of homeless people do not change that fact. Our system is nowhere close to any kind of breaking point, and if it was the thing pushing it there would be Republican policies, not immigrants.
  #292  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:47 PM
The Tooth is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
Comparing the refugee's plight favorable to living in Detroit.
Classy.
Plenty of room in Utah.
__________________
"It would never occur to me to wear pink, just as it would never occur to Michael Douglas to play a poor person." - Sarah Vowell
  #293  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:28 PM
HurricaneDitka is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,977
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
Plenty of room in Utah.
They wouldn't like it here either. We're full of Republicans.
  #294  
Old 08-15-2019, 07:34 PM
The Tooth is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 4,728
Glad to hear it! Rock-ribbed patriots all, humbled by what the refugees have gone through to get there and eager to welcome these people to their new home, the Greatest Country On Earth(tm)! Of this I have no doubt.
__________________
"It would never occur to me to wear pink, just as it would never occur to Michael Douglas to play a poor person." - Sarah Vowell
  #295  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:14 PM
QuickSilver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
You cherry pick some facts and then get mad when I dont accept them?

And yes we ARE full. Just look at all the pictures of homeless around the country and the massive traffic jams especially in California and then tell me why we need to bring in a million more. Not to mention all or most of our state and national parks have waiting lists and traffic jams. Why? Because again, we are full.

No - dont cherry pick some article. Just look at those videos and tell me why we need to bring in a million more people?
California is a crowded state. No doubt. But that isn't the whole story, is it? Here's a map of population density around the world. Take a look, zoom in and out, and describe in your own words what you see. Compare population densities of the US with places like western Europe and the UK. How does that match up with your claim that there is no room left in the US for any more immigrants?

You can make all sorts of other claims, I suppose. Like NYC, L.A. and S.F. are much too crowded and real estate prices are complete out of reach of most people living there. You can argue that we could improve urban planning, infrastructure and lots of other contributing factors to over-crowding in concentrated areas of the country. All valid points.

If in fact you were making them. But you're not, are you? You're just ranting about immigrants. You know, the people who come into this country to literally pick cherries (among other back-breaking work) for much less pay than most americans would ever get off their asses for.
__________________
St. QuickSilver: Patron Saint of Thermometers.
  #296  
Old 08-15-2019, 08:54 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,574
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
If in fact you were making them. But you're not, are you? You're just ranting about immigrants. You know, the people who come into this country to literally pick cherries (among other back-breaking work) for much less pay than most americans would ever get off their asses for.
Solid post, QuickSilver, but this jumped out at me.

Indeed, immigrants do the jobs Americans don't want to do. Americans don't want to work in fields, and they don't dream of busing tables or working the register at Burger King. Yes they'll do it if they must, but it's not what they want. All of this labor demand-supply is deeply woven into the economy, particularly when it comes to consumer pricing. If we end up giving Americans the jobs that cheap Mexican or immigrant labor gladly works at a cheap price, we'll pay more for things and businesses will most likely lose efficiency.
  #297  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:27 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
California is a crowded state. No doubt. But that isn't the whole story, is it? Here's a map of population density around the world. Take a look, zoom in and out, and describe in your own words what you see. Compare population densities of the US with places like western Europe and the UK. How does that match up with your claim that there is no room left in the US for any more immigrants?

You can make all sorts of other claims, I suppose. Like NYC, L.A. and S.F. are much too crowded and real estate prices are complete out of reach of most people living there. You can argue that we could improve urban planning, infrastructure and lots of other contributing factors to over-crowding in concentrated areas of the country. All valid points.

If in fact you were making them. But you're not, are you? You're just ranting about immigrants. You know, the people who come into this country to literally pick cherries (among other back-breaking work) for much less pay than most americans would ever get off their asses for.
I knew someone would pull out the arguement "but we are not as crowded as other places" bit.

Why, do we HAVE to be as crowded as other places? Do the people in more crowded nations like it that way?

I live in Kansas and yes, we have lots of supposed "empty" spaces. But to live in them you have to provide jobs, schools, roads, water treatment plants and other infrastructure. so called "empty" spaces exist that way for a reason. People cannot live there.
  #298  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:28 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Tooth View Post
Plenty of room in Utah.
Where? It seems to me Utah's cities are pretty full already and to bring in more people you have to start using up valuable farmland or areas set aside for nature preserves.
  #299  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:31 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,538
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobot View Post
I mentioned in another thread about a recent drive I made from the south suburbs of Chicago, through central Illinois to Indianapolis. Boy, full is an understatement. Heading south through Illinois every hundred or so miles a town would pop up out of nowhere, home to- I'm guessing- 2 or 3 thousand people. It was amazing. And don't get me started about this place I went through called Champaign-Urbana. I'm guessing again that that place must have had 100,000 people. And there it was, RIGHT in between Chicago and Indianapolis! Full to the brim we are.
Its that way for a reason. Notice all those crops being grown on that supposed "empty" land? Notice all the cows? Those towns support about all the people they can and to bring in more you have to start covering up farmland and cutting down forests.

You want that?

We are full!
  #300  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:37 PM
GreysonCarlisle's Avatar
GreysonCarlisle is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 1,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Its that way for a reason. Notice all those crops being grown on that supposed "empty" land? Notice all the cows? Those towns support about all the people they can and to bring in more you have to start covering up farmland and cutting down forests.

You want that?

We are full!
Where were you in the 1500s?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017