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Old 12-10-2012, 12:58 PM
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Why is Israel rich and Palestine poor?


Here are some possible answers.
1) Israeli got all the good land in 1948.
2) Rich Jews send a lot of money to Israeli. Why rich Arabs do not send money to Palestine is a mystery.
3) The US supports Israel with huge amount of cash (loans?) because the US has a strategic interest in the area.
4) Israelis are industrious and Arabs are lazy. (I somehow doubt this one)
5) any or all of the above.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:02 PM
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All of the above. Except to say re: 4). It's not that Arabs are lazy but that Israelis have more of an entrepreneurial culture.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:11 PM
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In place of 4) I would put that Israel has an open economy and a relatively transparent government with the rule of law and basic property rights. Those are necessary ingredients for a society to create and maintain wealth. Palestine has been run by a succession of corrupt despots or infighting ideologues for its entire history. Nobody is going to invest in Palestine if they are not confident that the government will guarantee fairness and protection.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:14 PM
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In place of 4) I would put that Israel has an open economy and a relatively transparent government with the rule of law and basic property rights. Those are necessary ingredients for a society to create and maintain wealth. Palestine has been run by a succession of corrupt despots or infighting ideologues for its entire history. Nobody is going to invest in Palestine if they are not confident that the government will guarantee fairness and protection.


Right. It’s why most of Africa and South America is poor, too. Terrorist leaders do not make good leaders of nations.

There’s also a ‘blame” issue- if you spend all you time blaming someone else for all your problems and not fixing them yourself, you never get out of that hole. Look at Mexico for a example.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by blood63 View Post
Here are some possible answers.
1) Israeli got all the good land in 1948.
2) Rich Jews send a lot of money to Israeli. Why rich Arabs do not send money to Palestine is a mystery.
3) The US supports Israel with huge amount of cash (loans?) because the US has a strategic interest in the area.
4) Israelis are industrious and Arabs are lazy. (I somehow doubt this one)
5) any or all of the above.


It can’t be 2 or 3.

Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip receive one of the highest levels of aid in the world.[2] Aid has been offered to the Palestinian National Authority (PNA) and other Palestinian Non-governmental organizations (PNGOs) by the international community, including International Non-governmental Organizations (INGOs).
The entities that provide aid to the Palestinians are categorized into seven groups: the Arab nations, the European Union, the United States, Japan, international institutions (including agencies of the UN system), European countries, and other nations.[3]”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interna...o_Palestinians

Last edited by DrDeth; 12-10-2012 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:19 PM
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Right. It’s why most of Africa and South America is poor, too. Terrorist leaders do not make good leaders of nations.

There’s also a ‘blame” issue- if you spend all you time blaming someone else for all your problems and not fixing them yourself, you never get out of that hole. Look at Mexico for a example.
I'm not too familiar with Mexico, but how much blame rhetoric goes on down there? They certainly have huge problems with corruption and transparency, but when it comes to Latin American deflectoscreeching1, I think of Chavez-era Venezuela.


1. Yes, I just invented that. You owe me a dollar each time you use it.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:32 PM
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partly it's a bootstrap effect. The government of israel, for example, was determined to provide electricity, water, roads phones, postal service, etc. to a european standard. The european arrivals expected nothing less. These immigrants also had among them the electricians, engineers, project managers, etc. to implement this infrastructure, and the education (literacy, etc.) to learn what they did not have. Despotic and corrupt arab leaders had much less incentive, money or technical experts to implement these changes, if at all, beyond the big cities.

Of course, if you want to implement a busines n th Palestinian territories, you have to deal with a corrupt local infrastructure - then you have to deal with a bureaucracy in Israel that did not want you to succeed; try to import any parts, and you have to prove they can't be used to make weapons. (I.e, fertilizer and deisel fuel - hope you're not planning an agribusiness). Your shipping will be massively delayed to cross the frontier, and your product could be trapped for weeks by a border closure after some idiot palestinian blows himself and others up and annoys the authorities.

Another part is banking - we have western banking, where a startup business routinely borrows to get started or expand - so does Israel. This presumes an open business environment, standard contract law, fair and open courts to collect debts etc. All this fails in a corrupt and arbitrary legal system.

The typical Arab middle eastern environment is to hide your wealth unless you have connections, as you are prone to arbitrary "tax" collection, extortion, etc.
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:40 PM
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I have often wondered why if the Arab world loves the Palestinians why they don't indeed have the best army, air force and homes, food and agriculture in the world, after all the Arab nations seem to have plenty of cash to throw around. Also if the Palestinians are considered Arabs since they lived in the place now claimed as Israel, why re the Israeli's not Arabs too?
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Old 12-10-2012, 01:59 PM
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I have often wondered why if the Arab world loves the Palestinians why they don't indeed have the best army, air force and homes, food and agriculture in the world, after all the Arab nations seem to have plenty of cash to throw around.
Palestine makes a super convenient proxy army to kill Jews with. The Arab world funnels lots of money/supplies to Palestine, but mainly for the purpose of arming them to fight in a proxy war with Israel. Not to mention the wonderful PR victories that Israel keeps handing over.

An independent and prosperous Palestine is not in the best interest of the rest of the Arab world.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:08 PM
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I have often wondered why if the Arab world loves the Palestinians why they don't indeed have the best army, air force...
Can't speak to the other items on your list, but as far as arab military power is concerned, you might find this article interesting:

Why Arabs Lose Wars

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Originally Posted by Glazer
All of the above. Except to say re: 4). It's not that Arabs are lazy but that Israelis have more of an entrepreneurial culture.
A friend recently completed his MBA. Part of his assigned reading was a book titled Start-Up Nation. He recommended it to me; I haven't read it yet, but I plan to. Amazon's summary:

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Originally Posted by Amazon
START-UP NATION addresses the trillion dollar question: How is it that Israel-- a country of 7.1 million, only 60 years old, surrounded by enemies, in a constant state of war since its founding, with no natural resources-- produces more start-up companies than large, peaceful, and stable nations like Japan, China, India, Korea, Canada and the UK?

With the savvy of foreign policy insiders, Senor and Singer examine the lessons of the country's adversity-driven culture, which flattens hierarchy and elevates informality-- all backed up by government policies focused on innovation. In a world where economies as diverse as Ireland, Singapore and Dubai have tried to re-create the "Israel effect", there are entrepreneurial lessons well worth noting. As America reboots its own economy and can-do spirit, there's never been a better time to look at this remarkable and resilient nation for some impressive, surprising clues.
  #11  
Old 12-10-2012, 02:20 PM
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Palestine makes a super convenient proxy army to kill Jews with. The Arab world funnels lots of money/supplies to Palestine, but mainly for the purpose of arming them to fight in a proxy war with Israel. Not to mention the wonderful PR victories that Israel keeps handing over.

An independent and prosperous Palestine is not in the best interest of the rest of the Arab world.
It does not seem to be good at that,the odd rocket lobed over and they get pasted. If the killing of jews was the idea they are doing it wrong. How much money anyway? Surely not as much as Israel spends in response.

And id agree that a prosperous Palestine would not seem to be the desire they seem to be just used as a rather ineffectual cats paw. Maybe useful only as a uniting force but not really cared about.
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:38 PM
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Can't speak to the other items on your list, but as far as arab military power is concerned, you might find this article interesting:

Why Arabs Lose Wars
That is indeed an interesting article. Sounds rather like WW1 British army though. And like Stalin's ww2 army which proved by sheer weight of numbers one can win.
  #13  
Old 12-10-2012, 03:10 PM
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I think this is better suited to Great Debates than GQ.

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General Questions Moderator
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:15 PM
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If the killing of jews was the idea they are doing it wrong. How much money anyway? Surely not as much as Israel spends in response.
Exactly the point. A very small investment in rockets leads to a huge expenditure of money and a huge loss of international goodwill on the part of the Israel.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:47 PM
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Yes, I just invented that. You owe me a dollar each time you use it.[/sub]
Use it? I can't pronounce it.
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Old 12-10-2012, 03:53 PM
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Use it? I can't pronounce it.
Well, I can pronounce it. "Duh-flehk-toe-screech-ing."


Oh, fudge!

(Hands a loonie to Friedo)

(Glares suspiciously at carnivorousplant)

You're in on Friedo's racket, ain't ya?
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:03 PM
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(Glares suspiciously at carnivorousplant)

You're in on Friedo's racket, ain't ya?
Nah, the last guy who tried to take over Friedo's racket got his knees busted.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:17 PM
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1) Israeli got all the good land in 1948.
I can't evaluate that claim but I'm very skeptical it could be the case. I think we can say Israel worked very hard to make its land usable valuable and the Palestinians have not been able to do that. The fact that their land is currently being part-occupied can't help, but there has also been a shortage of good or even interested leadership and planning.
Quote:
2) Rich Jews send a lot of money to Israeli.
I'm sure a lot of money has been sent to Israel that way, but it's not what keeps the country going. Israel built an economy and it's not subsisting on handouts from rich old Jews.
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Why rich Arabs do not send money to Palestine is a mystery.
Not really.
Quote:
3) The US supports Israel with huge amount of cash (loans?) because the US has a strategic interest in the area.
The U.S. gives Israel a substantial amount of aid, but again, people overestimate how much. Israel does stand on its own two feet economically and if the U.S. stopped its support or reduced it, the country wouldn't collapse.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:23 PM
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Part of the issue might be because Israeli leaders don't steal as much of the aid they get.

Cite.

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Old 12-10-2012, 04:49 PM
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Here are some possible answers.
1) Israeli got all the good land in 1948.
2) Rich Jews send a lot of money to Israeli. Why rich Arabs do not send money to Palestine is a mystery.
3) The US supports Israel with huge amount of cash (loans?) because the US has a strategic interest in the area.
4) Israelis are industrious and Arabs are lazy. (I somehow doubt this one)
5) any or all of the above.
The fact that you use the word "Palestine" demonstrates part of the problem, which is that the Palestinian Arabs are much more interested in the trappings of statehood (which they believe can be used to undermine Israel) than in doing the actual work of building and bettering themselves.

If they took the energy they spend in trying to undermine Israel and used it instead to develop themselves, they would probably be at least as rich as Israel by now.
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Old 12-10-2012, 04:55 PM
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Right. It’s why most of Africa and South America is poor, too. Terrorist leaders do not make good leaders of nations.

There’s also a ‘blame” issue- if you spend all you time blaming someone else for all your problems and not fixing them yourself, you never get out of that hole.
I agree that it's counter-productive. The Palestinian Arabs remind me of some comic-book villain who spends all his time thinking about how he's going to "get" the hero.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:04 PM
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Add 6) constant attacks and harassment by Israel. People who spend their time under occupation, being bombed, being shot, being driven out of their homes, or in refugee camps don't build industrialized nations. I find it highly unlikely that the Israelis would allow them to build such a nation. The Israelis (or anyone else) wouldn't have done much if at all better under the same conditions.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:13 PM
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Add 6) constant attacks and harassment by Israel. People who spend their time under occupation, being bombed, being shot, being driven out of their homes, or in refugee camps don't build industrialized nations. I find it highly unlikely that the Israelis would allow them to build such a nation. The Israelis (or anyone else) wouldn't have done much if at all better under the same conditions.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Israel spend the first 30-odd years of its existence under constant threat of annihilation by its neighbors? It wasn't until the Camp David accords that it had one neighbor that wasn't bent on driving it into the sea.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:19 PM
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Israel spend the first 30-odd years of its existence under constant threat of annihilation by its neighbors?
That's not remotely the same as being actually under occupation or attacked or having your lands fragmented.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:26 PM
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Part of the issue might be because Israeli leaders don't steal as much of the aid they get.

Cite.

Regards,
Shodan
Yeah, most of the disparity between Israel and Palestine boils down to the fact that Israel's government is strong, united, and not overly corrupt, while Palestine's leadership is weak, divided, and thoroughly corrupt.

This says nothing about the people, of course. Obviously there's nothing innate about Israelis or Palestinians that make them better or worse human beings. The framework for a successful Palestinian state just hasn't been laid yet.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:28 PM
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That's not remotely the same as being actually under occupation or attacked or having your lands fragmented.
Certainly not for lack of trying...
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:29 PM
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That's not remotely the same as being actually under occupation or attacked or having your lands fragmented.
Israel was attacked several times over that period, of course, and later there were plenty of bombings and terrorist attacks.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:30 PM
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Certainly not for lack of trying...
Israel was attacked ... what, 3 times? (48, 6-day war, Yom Kippur War) and would certainly have been occupied and fragmented. They were just better at repelling attack.
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Old 12-10-2012, 05:35 PM
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Certainly not for lack of trying...
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:00 PM
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Israel was attacked several times over that period, of course, and later there were plenty of bombings and terrorist attacks.
Still not even close to the conditions the Palestinians have lived under. I don't believe that anybody could have been in the position of the Palestinians and built a modern industrial nation.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:31 PM
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Also if the Palestinians are considered Arabs since they lived in the place now claimed as Israel, why re the Israeli's not Arabs too?
Er...no. The Palestinians aren't considered Arabs because of where they lived. They're considered Arabs because the speak Arabic.

The Israelis, by contrast don't speak Arabic, but speak Hebrew.

You might as well ask why the Turks and the Kurds aren't considered Arabs.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:35 PM
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Israel was attacked several times over that period, of course, and later there were plenty of bombings and terrorist attacks.
They've never been conquered and occupied for almost half-a-century.

I don't see how anyone, particularly when they don't even have a state, could have become a modern industrial nation as the OP is wondering.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:36 PM
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The Israelis, by contrast don't speak Arabic, but speak Hebrew.
Although Arabic and Hebrew do share a common linguistic ancestor.
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Old 12-10-2012, 06:47 PM
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Although Arabic and Hebrew do share a common linguistic ancestor.
So does Spanish and French but Parisians aren't Hispanics.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:01 PM
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Israel has chosen education, and many Muslim nation do not provide non-religious schools.
Some don't even permit them.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:11 PM
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They've never been conquered and occupied for almost half-a-century.
The first citizens of Israel certainly had.
I'm sure the memory of the diaspora colors Israeli culture and mind set.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:20 PM
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Israel has chosen education, and many Muslim nation do not provide non-religious schools.
Some don't even permit them.
Which of the Arab nations surrounding Israel(Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt) don't "provide" or even "permit" non-religious schools?

Besides we're talking about "the Palestinians" not "Muslims".
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:22 PM
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The first citizens of Israel certainly had.
I'm sure the memory of the diaspora colors Israeli culture and mind set.
For starters Palestine is still occupied. Israel isn't. And no, Israel's first citizens were never "occupied".

Obviously most came from countries where they were persecuted minorities but that's a seperate issue.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:22 PM
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The first citizens of Israel certainly had.
But that rather proves my point; Jews who were being occupied and persecuted didn't build anything like Israel under those conditions; they couldn't. No one can.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:35 PM
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Israel has chosen education, and many Muslim nation do not provide non-religious schools.
Some don't even permit them.
That I think is one major key. The Jews came to Palestine with a European heritage that valued education, and a Jewish heritage that revered education (the one thing even a pogrom can't steal from you). They followed in the footsteps of North Americans and Europeans in making education mandatory (since someone was asking why USA was rich vs. Mexico or S. America...) Most technical jobs require education. You can't even process paperwork without literacy, you can't work in a bankk without math, you can't read a repair manual ... education.

Keep in mind too, the Israeli state may not have wanted the Palestinians to get too economically powerful; but so did the Palestinian radicals. A West Bank full of happy, rich families with cars, jobs, and businesses, their own big house with satellite big-screen TVs and internet, vacations in Sharm el Sheik and a pilgrimage to Mecca every decade - these guys would not be interested in backing an intifada. Tick off the Israelis, who are stupid enough to play into the Hamas' hands and bomb the crap out of the infrastructure, bankrupt any business by blockades and trash the economy with blockades... Hey, it makes a perfect base to build a new generation of warriors willing to blow themselves up for the cause. All for a few dozen homemade rockets.

Last edited by md2000; 12-10-2012 at 07:37 PM.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:40 PM
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But that rather proves my point; Jews who were being occupied and persecuted didn't build anything like Israel under those conditions; they couldn't. No one can.
I seem to recall them living in Europe, where they were prominent scientists, and the US, where they helped to build the first nuclear bomb.

I think they did just fine, despite their repression. Indeed, some believe that the above-average IQ of Jews is due to natural selection - the dumb Jews all died.

Then again, given Israel, its pretty clear not all of them did :P

I think a more interesting question is "Why is the Arab world in general poor relative to the west?" The Arabs were in a pretty similar situation to the Europeans if you go back to the first bit of the 2nd millenium.

Likewise, Mexico and all of South America is massively poorer than the US and Canada are, despite also being breakaways from colonial powers.

The answer is very likely "because they don't form a coherent society".
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:41 PM
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Still not even close to the conditions the Palestinians have lived under. I don't believe that anybody could have been in the position of the Palestinians and built a modern industrial nation.
I think most sensible people would agree. There are lots of problems preventing Palestine from attaining legitimate stable statehood, certainly not the least of which is Israel's interference. They're more terrified of a stable and rich Palestine than a fragmented and disorganized one.
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Old 12-10-2012, 07:49 PM
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I seem to recall them living in Europe, where they were prominent scientists, and the US, where they helped to build the first nuclear bomb.
Are you trying to equate the conditions of Jews living in Europe (pre-Holocaust) and America to those of Palestinians in the last 60 years? It's not even close.

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Indeed, some believe that the above-average IQ of Jews is due to natural selection - the dumb Jews all died.
"Some believe?" Who? Certainly nobody who actually knows anything about evolution or genetics.
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Old 12-11-2012, 06:28 AM
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Add 6) constant attacks and harassment by Israel. People who spend their time under occupation, being bombed, being shot, being driven out of their homes, or in refugee camps don't build industrialized nations. I find it highly unlikely that the Israelis would allow them to build such a nation. The Israelis (or anyone else) wouldn't have done much if at all better under the same conditions.
Ahh, the sweet hum of the Liberal Excuse Machine. I'm curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? Or is it 100% the result of misconduct by outsiders like Jews and Europeans?

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Part of the issue might be because Israeli leaders don't steal as much of the aid they get.
Well Arab corruption is surely the result of misbehavior by Jewish people or European colonial powers or something.

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Old 12-11-2012, 06:44 AM
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P.S. If Arabs were poor as a result of Israeli misconduct, then what one would expect to see is that Arabs in general suffer from less poverty if they have less contact with Israel.

For example, Jordan is full of Arabs and has been (somewhat) at peace with Israel for many years now. Same thing for Egypt. Syria is full of Arabs and is in a state of war with Israel but that war has been pretty cool for quite a while now. So by the "Israeli misconduct" hypothesis, these countries ought to be thriving. Which of course they are not.

I would guess a big part of the problem is corruption and absence of rule of law. As well as a culture which has a different concept of honor than the West. In the West "honor" means keeping your promises.
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Old 12-11-2012, 07:59 AM
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I'm curious: Is there any problems the Arabs have which are a result of their own flaws? Or is it 100% the result of misconduct by outsiders like Jews and Europeans?
And where did I even imply that they had no flaws? Nothing I said was even incompatible with the other problems people have listed; I was pointing out that Israel was a contribution to their problems, not the sole source of them.

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Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
P.S. If Arabs were poor as a result of Israeli misconduct, then what one would expect to see is that Arabs in general suffer from less poverty if they have less contact with Israel.

For example, Jordan is full of Arabs and has been (somewhat) at peace with Israel for many years now. Same thing for Egypt. Syria is full of Arabs and is in a state of war with Israel but that war has been pretty cool for quite a while now. So by the "Israeli misconduct" hypothesis, these countries ought to be thriving.
No; it just means they should be better off. Which they are.

And your idea that either everything is Israel's fault or nothing is their fault is a false dilemma and strawman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
As well as a culture which has a different concept of honor than the West. In the West "honor" means keeping your promises.
Then the West isn't very honorable.
  #47  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:39 AM
Malthus is offline
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Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
For starters Palestine is still occupied. Israel isn't. And no, Israel's first citizens were never "occupied".

Obviously most came from countries where they were persecuted minorities but that's a seperate issue.
The first Zionists lived under foreign occupation - the British. In fact, many of Zionism's leaders gained their training doing much as the PLO later did - as "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" (take your pick), fighting a nasty battle against both Brits and Arabs.

To my mind, the main diffeence is that the Israelis were able, once the British left (in fact, even before) to suppress their extremists - the Irgun/Stern Gang types (although some of these fellows came back as politicians, as an organization they were effectively defanged by the Haganah). Thus, once the actual colonial occupation was gone in '48, they could rapidly concentrate on nation-building.

What we see in Gaza today is somewhat what Israel would have been like, more or less, had the Irgun won the internal battle with the Haganah. Only worse because the Irgun were not also religious fanatics.

The problem of course is that the PA is simply not as effective a government-in-waiting as the Yishuv had. I don't believe that the fact that the Israelis put pressure on them makes the primary difference. The Brits put pressure on the Yishuv, without it collapsing into impotence on the one hand and extremism on the other.
  #48  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:41 AM
bahimes is offline
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From Machine Elf's link, though it is directly addressing the military strengths of the Arabs, the cultural context is compelling. Change "military" to "academia" to "business" or "insert your context here".

Bolding mine.

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

Quote:
Why Arabs Lose Wars

by Norvell B. De Atkine
Middle East Quarterly
December 1999

Head-to-head competition among individuals is generally avoided, at least openly, for it means that someone wins and someone else loses, with the loser humiliated. This taboo has particular import when a class contains mixed ranks. Education is in good part sought as a matter of personal prestige, so Arabs in U.S. military schools take pains to ensure that the ranking member, according to military position or social class, scores the highest marks in the class. Often this leads to "sharing answers" in class—often in a rather overt manner or junior officers concealing scores higher than their superior's.

All of which has led American trainers to develop a rule of thumb: a sergeant first class in the U.S. Army has as much authority as a colonel in an Arab army.
This section of the linked article speaks directly to education, it all seems very clear, and may be stereotypical, but check the author's credentials.

You have ruling class, economic and political elite, and everyone else.

My wife has been an EFL/TESOL teacher all her adult life. The hardest students to teach were those from the ME. The concept of "cheating" did not compute. They all failed or passed, depending on if one of them took decent notes. When it came time for the TOEFL exams to go on to a US University, she had to put them in separate rooms or spaced so far apart they couldn't cheat. And the most hateful even scurrilous "teacher evalulation" sheets they handed in...

I saw this effect to a lesser extent in Spain, where the Engineers, who mostly spoke perfect English could not be reliably depended upon to speak clearly and with patience with the installers and technicians to explain process and procedure. Therefore, three retired USN NCOs were hired to lead teams of technicians.

There are little to no "middle class" to even out the society.

Last edited by bahimes; 12-11-2012 at 08:42 AM. Reason: typos
  #49  
Old 12-11-2012, 08:44 AM
chappachula is offline
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Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq View Post
They've never been conquered and occupied for almost half-a-century.
I don't see how anyone, particularly when they don't even have a state, could have become a modern industrial nation as the OP is wondering.
Before Israel became a state in 1948, it was conquered and occupied.( First by the Ottoman Turks, and then by the British Empire.)
But despite the difficulties, the Jewish population living in Palestine focused its energy on the positive aspects of nation building. The Palestinians focus all their energy on the negatives.

During the 40 years before becoming an independent nation, the Israelis built universities, hospitals, banks, electric power stations, the uniquely successful agricultural communes called "kibbutz", and established political parties which took responsibility for their actions and were untainted by corruption.


Yes, there was some violence, too...but violence was never the main raison d'etre of the Israeli leadership, and was never widely supported by the man in the street.
And that is the main difference between Israel and Palestine.



,
  #50  
Old 12-11-2012, 09:30 AM
Noone Special is offline
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Originally Posted by Der Trihs View Post
Still not even close to the conditions the Palestinians have lived under. I don't believe that anybody could have been in the position of the Palestinians and built a modern industrial nation.
This is certainly a valid point post-1967, but I would argue that the groundwork for Israel as a prosperous, Western-style nation was laid before that, and the Arabs in what are now the PA (yes, there are now de facto two of 'em...) could have made the same steps forward in the same time frame. Arguably, had they done so the 1967 war may not have involved Jordan at all (although this latter thought experiment is not applicable to Gaza)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malthus View Post
The first Zionists lived under foreign occupation - the British. In fact, many of Zionism's leaders gained their training doing much as the PLO later did - as "freedom fighters" or "terrorists" (take your pick), fighting a nasty battle against both Brits and Arabs.

To my mind, the main diffeence is that the Israelis were able, once the British left (in fact, even before) to suppress their extremists - the Irgun/Stern Gang types (although some of these fellows came back as politicians, as an organization they were effectively defanged by the Haganah). Thus, once the actual colonial occupation was gone in '48, they could rapidly concentrate on nation-building.
Pretty much this, which is IMO another way of saying what I said above -- it all boils down to how fast and in which direction a society leaves the starting block towards becoming a nation-state; it is extremely difficult to change course later.
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