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  #201  
Old 01-22-2018, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessan View Post
Gaza isn't occupied, it's besieged.

Occupied = troops on the inside.

Besieged = troops on the outside.

That's not a value judgement - just semantics.
Fine besieged.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo View Post
Comparing the Israelis to the Nazis is never any sort of mistake (honest or otherwise) in these sorts of debates. It's a pointed and purposeful comparison.
Oh the precious.

It is the example that came to mind to the stupid idea that there is some kind of free economic situation for the Gaza.

You can get over yourselves and the stupid insinuations.
  #202  
Old 01-22-2018, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
You can get over yourselves and the stupid insinuations.
I'm not sure what you think I'm insinuating. I thought I was being pretty clear: you were not making a mistake. You meant exactly what you said.

You seem to agree. What's the problem?

You're hardly the first person to compare the Israelis to the Nazis. You won't be the last. Maybe not even in this thread.
  #203  
Old 01-22-2018, 10:44 AM
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Yes I meant exactly that it is the example that came to mind as a illustration that just not having soldiers inside the walls is not freedom.

the pretensions about other meanings is just the typical preciousness.
  #204  
Old 01-22-2018, 10:57 AM
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Okie dokie.
  #205  
Old 01-22-2018, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
Yes I meant exactly that it is the example that came to mind as a illustration that just not having soldiers inside the walls is not freedom.

the pretensions about other meanings is just the typical preciousness.
Are the Egyptians also like Nazis?
  #206  
Old 01-22-2018, 11:44 AM
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Are the sterile precious questions also boring like the other sterile questions?

No statement was made about anyone "being like the nazis" the only illustration was it is possible to be occupied or without the freedom even the soldiers are not inside of the walls.

Continue the boring insinuations...

Last edited by Ramira; 01-22-2018 at 11:45 AM.
  #207  
Old 01-22-2018, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
Are the sterile precious questions also boring like the other sterile questions?

No statement was made about anyone "being like the nazis" the only illustration was it is possible to be occupied or without the freedom even the soldiers are not inside of the walls.

Continue the boring insinuations...
At the risk of boring you very much longer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
Who controls its borders and controls literally every in and out movement of the goods and bans free flows?

The Israel

Whatever the reasons (and yes the Hamas generates many of its own), it remains an occuption in the same way that the Warsaw ghettoe was an occupation.



Yes, this tends to happen when you have what is in effect the prison colony economy where there is zero free flow of goods and the economy subsists very much on fucking tunnels dug into Egypt. Tunnels.
Please correct my misunderstanding of your "Warsaw ghetto[e]" statement.

I trust we do not need historical clarification of who was responsible for the Warsaw ghetto.

But, in whatever context your reference applies to Israel, does it not equally apply to Egypt?

Last edited by QuickSilver; 01-22-2018 at 11:59 AM.
  #208  
Old 01-22-2018, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
But, in whatever context your reference applies to Israel, does it not equally apply to Egypt?
So what if it does? Yes, Egypt is helping Israel with locking down the border. Why are you determined to get a "gotchya!"? Ramira has been perfectly ready to criticize Israel's neighbors before so wtf is your point?

Last edited by CarnalK; 01-22-2018 at 01:09 PM.
  #209  
Old 01-22-2018, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by QuickSilver View Post
At the risk of boring you very much longer...



Please correct my misunderstanding of your "Warsaw ghetto[e]" statement.

I trust we do not need historical clarification of who was responsible for the Warsaw ghetto.

But, in whatever context your reference applies to Israel, does it not equally apply to Egypt?
Allah ya Rub.

Well yes it does apply to the Egypt

Where would you get the idea it does not?

Nothing I have ever said would suggest it does not. There was no statement about the actors.

It was the point of the non freedom without even the soldiers inside of the walls.

If the knees were not jerking so much to hit their own noses it would even be clear from what you quoted from what I posted that I put clearly blame on the HAMAS for contributing to this.

and since there is so much knee jerking and so much over reading, I will add to remove any doubt that no, there is no relationship between those in the Warsow ghettoe and the Hamas - that was also not meant in case anyone wants to try to invent that implication as a tortured way to knee jerk.

So there was and is no statement about anyone, not the Israelis, not the Hamas not the Egyptians "being like Nazis" but there is the statement that it is perfectly possible to bein the state of occupation unfreedom or to take Alessan's correction on a utilisation of the language, the Siege, without the soldiers inside the wall.
  #210  
Old 01-22-2018, 02:28 PM
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I can't help but think of how one book on the history of Israel which is seen as being extremely favorable to the Israelis is Connor Cruise O'Brien's The Siege: The Saga of Israel and Zionism.

https://www.amazon.com/Siege-Saga-Is...uise+o%27brien
  #211  
Old 01-22-2018, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
So what if it does? Yes, Egypt is helping Israel with locking down the border. Why are you determined to get a "gotchya!"? Ramira has been perfectly ready to criticize Israel's neighbors before so wtf is your point?
My point was to get Ramira to admit her erudite attempt at analogies happened to be inarticulate and insensitive. It took multiple tries by several posters to get her to grudgingly admit it. Even when she did, it comes across as being overly defensive.

I draw your attention to the earlier exchange:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyGuy
Is Gaza an occupation zone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramira
Of course it is.

Who controls its borders and controls literally every in and out movement of the goods and bans free flows?

The Israel

Whatever the reasons (and yes the Hamas generates many of its own), it remains an occuption in the same way that the Warsaw ghettoe was an occupation.
(bolding mine)

No mention of Egypt above. Yet, the subsequent denial:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramira
Well yes it does apply to the Egypt

Where would you get the idea it does not?

Nothing I have ever said would suggest it does not. There was no statement about the actors.
QED.
  #212  
Old 01-22-2018, 02:47 PM
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Moderating


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
I shall quote from above ...
I note this was identified and acknowledged, but I want to offer a reminder to not change text inside the quote box. It's clear this was unintentional.


I'm looking through your responses in this thread and I've isolated a few:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
Gaza does not have plenty of choices. Be offended as you want with the selective preciousness.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
The USA and the ISrael did just fine with Terrorist leaders...

but maybe they are not the right skin color to fit your deep "analysis. "
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramira View Post
Oh the precious.

It is the example that came to mind to the stupid idea that there is some kind of free economic situation for the Gaza.

You can get over yourselves and the stupid insinuations.
For the first, I may not be understanding the translation, but your uptick in use of the term "precious" and its derivations is clearly meant as a pejorative. Alone I might be inclined to give this a pass with just a notation.

For the second, however, the veneer is insufficient to avoid the obvious accusation of racism.

The third example, is jerkish hostility that is inseparable from insulting the poster. This is a warning for being a jerk. Dial back the hostility outside the Pit.

[/moderating]
  #213  
Old 01-23-2018, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Bone View Post
the third example, is jerkish hostility that is inseparable from insulting the poster. This is a warning for being a jerk. Dial back the hostility outside the Pit.[/moderating]
I know this is not ATMB, but I'd like to comment about this here, where it will be seen.
I am one of the posters Ramira seems to be insulting. I'm not happy about it, but I don't think she deserves a warning.Especially since English is not her first language. And I don't want her to get scared off of this site.

To Ramira: I strongly disagree with almost everything you post. But you often say something worth listening to. Please stay around, so we can keep arguing.

Last edited by chappachula; 01-23-2018 at 03:36 AM.
  #214  
Old 01-23-2018, 09:43 PM
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H.L. Mencken traveled in this part of the world back in the late 1920's. He wrote a book about these travels, and had an entire chapter describing the difference between the land occupied by Arabs and that occupied by Jews. He said it was striking - the Arab occupied areas were unbelievably backward, filthy, and poverty stricken, while the Jewish parts were prosperous, clean and modern. And this was written some ninety years ago (by a very astute reporter). The more things change the more they stay the same.

Last edited by Daylate; 01-23-2018 at 09:44 PM.
  #215  
Old 12-29-2018, 01:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daylate View Post
H.L. Mencken traveled in this part of the world back in the late 1920's. He wrote a book about these travels, and had an entire chapter describing the difference between the land occupied by Arabs and that occupied by Jews. He said it was striking - the Arab occupied areas were unbelievably backward, filthy, and poverty stricken, while the Jewish parts were prosperous, clean and modern. And this was written some ninety years ago (by a very astute reporter). The more things change the more they stay the same.
Yes, it's pretty shocking to visit parts of the West Bank where there are Arab and Jewish villages right next to each other. The Arab villages typically have garbage strewn around and piled up.

But perhaps a more telling difference is that the Arabs in the West Bank generally drive much nicer cars than the Jews. The reason for this, as it was explained to me, is that in a corrupt culture, it's very important to demonstrate to law enforcement that you are person of sufficiently high status that you should not be targeted for harassment or shakedowns.
  #216  
Old 12-30-2018, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
But perhaps a more telling difference is that the Arabs in the West Bank generally drive much nicer cars than the Jews.
Have you actually visited the West Bank and seen this?

I have and it certainly wasn’t true.

Did you hear this somewhere? If so, could you please provide a cite?
  #217  
Old 12-30-2018, 09:28 PM
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Yep good luck finding a cite for what a lucrative market Palestine is for luxury cars.
It's the same old bullshit people say about any group they wish to demonize.
  #218  
Old 12-30-2018, 09:33 PM
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In general, strange thread. Of course it's a polarizing topic.

But in terms of economics, you're talking about a territory with limited, ambiguous land ownership rights and limited control of their own borders. *of course* they are dirt poor. We may as well ask why no fortune 500 companies operate from prison.

Now on the question of who's to blame for that situation, sure we can have a debate. But regardless, the status quo is not conducive to economic growth to say the least.
  #219  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:41 PM
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Yep good luck finding a cite for what a lucrative market Palestine is for luxury cars.
It's the same old bullshit people say about any group they wish to demonize.
No need for a cite, it's obvious just from keeping your eyes open if you spend time in Area B. Cars with "Palestine" registration have a different color license plate from those with "Israel" registration.

Anyway, you can attack my motivations all you like. The fact is that the PA is extremely corrupt.

Do you realize that it's been 14 years since the Palestinian Authority has had a presidential election? Am I "demonizing" the Palestinian Arabs for pointing this out?

Quote:
talking about a territory with limited, ambiguous land ownership rights and limited control of their own borders. *of course* they are dirt poor.
Would you agree that Jordan lacks these attributes?
  #220  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
But perhaps a more telling difference is that the Arabs in the West Bank generally drive much nicer cars than the Jews.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
No need for a cite, it's obvious just from keeping your eyes open if you spend time in Area B. Cars with "Palestine" registration have a different color license plate from those with "Israel" registration.
I visited the West Bank last year, and while I can only offer anecdotal evidence from one day, your statement about cars if far from obvious. Over 90% of the cars we saw were several years old and several looked over 20 years old. The newish cars we saw were generally compacts. The one place where we saw a majority of nice cars? The Jewish settlement we drove through.
  #221  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
I visited the West Bank last year, and while I can only offer anecdotal evidence from one day, your statement about cars if far from obvious. Over 90% of the cars we saw were several years old and several looked over 20 years old. The newish cars we saw were generally compacts. The one place where we saw a majority of nice cars? The Jewish settlement we drove through.
Where exactly did you go? Which towns and settlements?
  #222  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:43 AM
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Bear in mind the context in which cars were originally brought up:

Quote:
Originally Posted by brazil84 View Post
But perhaps a more telling difference is that the Arabs in the West Bank generally drive much nicer cars than the Jews.
I googled it, and it turns out that Palestine has 42 cars per 1,000 population. So "they" don't generally drive (btw car ownership in Israel is about 10x this).

Like I say, it's the same old bigotry -- I hear people say the same thing about Gypsies or any immigrant group they want to denigrate. Not only are they all thieving scroungers but they all drive around in fancy cars.

Last edited by Mijin; 08-15-2019 at 04:44 AM.
  #223  
Old 08-15-2019, 06:19 AM
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Sorry: I used the word "Gypsy" above, without realizing it is an offensive term in many parts of the world.
I could pretend it was meant ironically, but it was just ignorance.
  #224  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
In general, strange thread. Of course it's a polarizing topic.

But in terms of economics, you're talking about a territory with limited, ambiguous land ownership rights and limited control of their own borders. *of course* they are dirt poor. We may as well ask why no fortune 500 companies operate from prison.

Now on the question of who's to blame for that situation, sure we can have a debate. But regardless, the status quo is not conducive to economic growth to say the least.
Martha Stewart!
  #225  
Old 08-15-2019, 09:41 AM
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Where exactly did you go? Which towns and settlements?
Hebron and its outskirts and Bethlehem. The settlement was in the Hebron outskirts.
  #226  
Old 08-15-2019, 10:31 AM
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partly it's a bootstrap effect. The government of israel, for example, was determined to provide electricity, water, roads phones, postal service, etc. to a european standard. The european arrivals expected nothing less. These immigrants also had among them the electricians, engineers, project managers, etc. to implement this infrastructure, and the education (literacy, etc.) to learn what they did not have. Despotic and corrupt arab leaders had much less incentive, money or technical experts to implement these changes, if at all, beyond the big cities.
Basically the founders of the Israeli state and the initial immigrants strove to reproduce a European-style nation in Israel, complete with first-world infrastructure and a similar legal/business climate, including property rights, rule of law and intolerance of corruption.

Meanwhile the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states continued doing their own thing, which wasn't the same thing, and wasn't going to produce the same results.

I suspect the same thing happened vis-a-vis the US and Mexico. Mexico was already there, doing their thing in their own way, and the US settlers to Texas, California and everywhere in between basically remade the area into US-style nations/states with everything that comes with it. And the contrast between the ways of doing things and their subsequent success is pretty stark.

My guess is that there are a small handful of things that have to be in place- a healthy respect for the rule of law, intolerance of corruption (not absolute, but generally a healthy intolerance), and a legal/business climate that allows people to get ahead without being legally handicapped by the government or competing interests.
  #227  
Old 08-15-2019, 04:52 PM
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It also helps if the people who do have wealth spend it on reinvestment instead of building palaces.
  #228  
Old Today, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Mijin View Post
Bear in mind the context in which cars were originally brought up:



I googled it, and it turns out that Palestine has 42 cars per 1,000 population. So "they" don't generally drive (btw car ownership in Israel is about 10x this).
That's not inconsistent with anything I have said. The area referred to as "Palestine" is poor and corrupt. That explains both general the lack of car ownership as well as the presence of nicer cars among those who do own them.

Anyway, please answer my questions:

1. Do you agree that the PA is far more corrupt than Israel?

2. Are you aware it's been 14 years since the PA had elections?

3. Do you concede that Jordan lacks the attributes of "ambiguous land ownership" and "limited control of its borders"?
  #229  
Old Today, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Wrenching Spanners View Post
Hebron and its outskirts and Bethlehem. The settlement was in the Hebron outskirts.
Which settlement?
  #230  
Old Today, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by blood63 View Post
Here are some possible answers.
1) Israeli got all the good land in 1948.
2) Rich Jews send a lot of money to Israeli. Why rich Arabs do not send money to Palestine is a mystery.
3) The US supports Israel with huge amount of cash (loans?) because the US has a strategic interest in the area.
4) Israelis are industrious and Arabs are lazy. (I somehow doubt this one)
5) any or all of the above.
Why are oppressed poorer than the oppressors? It's an enigma.

Are the Palestinians culturally, genetically or otherwise any different than the people in the surrounding countries?

Last edited by Damuri Ajashi; Today at 04:35 PM.
  #231  
Old Today, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bump View Post

Meanwhile the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab states
Putting aside issues of nomenclature, I basically agree with this. The per capita GDP of the area known as "Palestine" is comparable to that of Jordan and Egypt. Which are very similar to "Palestine" in terms of the people living their and their culture.

Neither Jordan nor Egypt are occupied by Israel.
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