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  #201  
Old 03-08-2019, 01:03 PM
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Let me know when that pipeline benefits Alberta. Until then, the most likely reason for the purchase was to bail out the company that realized its investment was going nowhere due to the environmental protests and legal challenges of the sort that Trudeau actually approves of.
They bought it to keep the project alive and hint hint, that wasn't because Quebec wants the project alive.
  #202  
Old 03-08-2019, 01:13 PM
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Just how connected to the Liberal party are the companies involved? Because given the events of the past few weeks, that seems important.

It also seems bizarre to spend 4.5 billion on a pipeline project, then put forward a bill (C-69) which effectively kills the ability to build a pipeline across Canada. But that may be more a result of stupidity than corruption. It's hard to tell with Trudeau, because he does both so well.

This sounds similar to our to our government's insane plan to buy thousands of railroad tanker cars because they couldn't negotiate pipelines. Of course, since our leaders were previously anti-pipeline activists, I'm sure they tried their best to get them built once in government.

We are being ruled by idiots.

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  #203  
Old 03-08-2019, 05:46 PM
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Federal Court today dismissed SNC-Lavalin's attempt at judicial review of the federal Crown Prosecutor's refusal to consider a remediation agreement.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/snc...tion-1.5048561
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  #204  
Old 03-11-2019, 01:36 PM
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Here's CNN on how the scandal is snowballing: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/opini...ntl/index.html
  #205  
Old 03-11-2019, 07:53 PM
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Here's CNN on how the scandal is snowballing: https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/09/opini...ntl/index.html
"...Trudeau's gender parity move in the cabinet firmly placed the former high school teacher as the country's feminist prime minister, and on the global stage, Trudeau was a breath of fresh air, fit-for-purpose in the age of selfies, #MeToo, and squeaky clean politics. Many were entranced by his physical appearance, compassionate demeanor and seemingly insatiable appetite for photos with fans: ..."

And there you have it. Completely unqualified for his position.

ETA: Ill-informed voters.

Last edited by Leaffan; 03-11-2019 at 07:57 PM.
  #206  
Old 03-12-2019, 08:08 AM
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Those things do not speak to a lack of qualifications; they are, rather, largely irrelevant to the issue of qualifications.

Hardly anyone is qualified for the top job before they get it, and after three and a half years it's long past time to drop the issue; Trudeau is the most qualified person in Canada to be Prime Minister who has any interest in having the job. The only more qualified people are the people who've BEEN Prime Minister and none of them want it. It's time to judge Trudeau based on his performance, which is, honestly, mediocre as hell.
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  #207  
Old 03-12-2019, 11:01 AM
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Trudeau is both reasonably qualified and doing a mediocre job overall. Dealing with Trump is not the easiest task and he made a good choice with Freeland. Trade means everything to Canada and if the steel tariffs are taken care of he did stand up for Canada here. He had the good sense to involve Mulroney. He chose a diverse cabinet. But diverse it gets. He has failed badly on pipelines and I agree C-69 is a very poor law. I am hoping he makes tougher decisions now, but doubt it before an election. His hair and Indian costumes are irrelevant. SNC remains a uniquely Canadian scandal where no one broke the law or got rich, but it filled the papers for a month since the optics were bad and Trudeau didnít just come out early and say his piece.
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  #208  
Old 03-12-2019, 06:11 PM
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honestly, mediocre as hell.
Isn't that the Canadian way?
  #209  
Old 03-12-2019, 06:24 PM
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He doesn't hang out with the likes of Faith Goldy and Ezra Levant, and in my view not hanging out with the likes of Faith Goldy and Ezra Levant goes a long way.
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  #210  
Old 03-13-2019, 03:37 PM
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SNC remains a uniquely Canadian scandal where no one broke the law or got rich, but it filled the papers for a month since the optics were bad and Trudeau didnít just come out early and say his piece.
Agreed - and the reason it filled the papers is that those like the National comPost have been running one or two anti-Trudeau screeds every day for the past 6 months. If a cat is stuck up a tree, they'll pen an op-ed about how it's Trudeau's fault.
  #211  
Old 03-13-2019, 04:48 PM
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Um, how do we know no one broke the law, exactly? We haven't had a formal investigation.
  #212  
Old 03-13-2019, 08:40 PM
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Sorry. SNC broke the law. It is true that there hasnít been an investigation. Maybe better to say it is not obvious a politician broke the law. I doubt the law was broken because the decision was not ultimately changed. If there are laws on how much advocacy is permissible or cabinet shuffles, I presume they are vaguely written and untested.
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  #213  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:03 PM
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Agreed - and the reason it filled the papers is that those like the National comPost have been running one or two anti-Trudeau screeds every day for the past 6 months. If a cat is stuck up a tree, they'll pen an op-ed about how it's Trudeau's fault.
Two days ago there was nothing in my Google News feed about Trudeau and SNC.

I was fucking thrilled.

Except it showed up again today...

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  #214  
Old 03-13-2019, 11:15 PM
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Agreed - and the reason it filled the papers is that those like the National comPost have been running one or two anti-Trudeau screeds every day for the past 6 months. If a cat is stuck up a tree, they'll pen an op-ed about how it's Trudeau's fault.
So the newspapers shouldn't be reporting on illegal corruption by companies who routinely receive government funding? And should not report on coercion from the PMO to the Attorney General to bury the corruption?
Seriously?
  #215  
Old 03-14-2019, 12:03 AM
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So the newspapers shouldn't be reporting on illegal corruption by companies who routinely receive government funding? And should not report on coercion from the PMO to the Attorney General to bury the corruption?
Seriously?
I don't disagree with the main thrust of your post, but "receive government funding?" Really? The government buys services from SNC Lavalin when they're the lowest bidder. That's not what any ordinary use of the phrase "receive government funding" means.
  #216  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:43 AM
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I don't disagree with the main thrust of your post, but "receive government funding?" Really? The government buys services from SNC Lavalin when they're the lowest bidder.
Or, apparently, the highest briber.
  #217  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:47 AM
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:: rimshot ::
  #218  
Old 03-14-2019, 10:49 AM
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Or, apparently, the highest briber.
Well yeah, but then they're providing government funding, not receiving it!
  #219  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:09 AM
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They bought it to keep the project alive and hint hint, that wasn't because Quebec wants the project alive.
Yes. The simple fact is there's a cost (up to $40/barrel, IIRC) price differential between what Alberta producers get and the world market price, due to transport issues. Hence the pipeline projects, east, west and south, all looking for a cheaper, safer way than exploding rail cars to get the product to market... to the benefit of Alberta, not Quebec.

The thing is, harper's government short-changed the appropriate process. The Supreme Court said, "No, do it right." Trudeau, instead of being a Harper-like asshole and fighting it, is proceeding with the proper process as required by the supreme law of the land. That will take a while. but... the pipe will probably still get built.

The problem so far is the excessive oil production from US fracking; the glut has lowered prices, and Trudeau, MBS, Putin, Maduro or any oil producer can't fight that basic law of economics.

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Sorry. SNC broke the law. It is true that there hasn’t been an investigation. Maybe better to say it is not obvious a politician broke the law. I doubt the law was broken because the decision was not ultimately changed. If there are laws on how much advocacy is permissible or cabinet shuffles, I presume they are vaguely written and untested.
The source for "no law was broken" was Wilson-Reybold herself. She specifically said that while the pressure was inappropriate (in her mind) it was not illegal. Trudeau says she never specifically told him to get everyone else to stop lobbying her, and she has not contradicted this. Therefore, anyone - party brass, Quebec politicians, the PM's office etc. - can express to her their opinion on the damage of convicting the company itself.

IMHO Trudeau is a bit of light-weight goody two-shoes who only got the position on name. But having put up with Harper, I like his earnest approach much better, and frankly, he's not as dumb as he looks. IF opposition politicians continue to underestimate him like Harper did, so much the better. I don't see Scheer as any better, another lightweight but he likes his mother. At least Trudeau did something concrete for his mom, legalizing pot.

IMOH why is the company being prosecuted? It should be the executives who participated, they should be doing serious time as the instigators and approvers of obviously illegal behaviour.

Last edited by md2000; 03-14-2019 at 11:10 AM.
  #220  
Old 03-14-2019, 11:47 AM
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So the newspapers shouldn't be reporting on illegal corruption by companies who routinely receive government funding? And should not report on coercion from the PMO to the Attorney General to bury the corruption?
Seriously?
Right. That's EXACTLY what I said. Your reading comprehension is quite impressive!

For months now, well before any SNC-Lavalin stuff, the National comPost has been featuring an article or two every day about How Horrible Trudeau Is.

These articles verge on the pathetic, and most are laughably partisan.

Anti- Trudeau comments online in this "newspaper" are put forth in Every.Single.Article, even if the article is about floods in Texas or a cat stuck in a tree in Medicine Hat. Now, they are interspersing reporting about SNC-Lavalin with stories about how like Trudeau is being mean, and saying harsh words to people.

Certain media outlets have completely abandoned all pretense at non-partisanship.

But do keep on characterizing this as me saying that they should not report on important developments in a major story. That's precious.
  #221  
Old 03-14-2019, 01:43 PM
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Right. That's EXACTLY what I said. Your reading comprehension is quite impressive!

For months now, well before any SNC-Lavalin stuff, the National comPost has been featuring an article or two every day about How Horrible Trudeau Is.
Which has nothing to do with the issue. They have a political bias, and the Toronto Star has the opposite political bias. We are, however, talking about Justin Trudeau and the SNC Lavalin scandal.

Your claim that "the reason it filled the papers" is because the National Post is biased is ridiculous. If that's so, well, why do I read so much about it in the Star? On CBC? In any Canadian news sources you care to mention?
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  #222  
Old 03-14-2019, 02:17 PM
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For that matter, I'm reading about in places like CNN and the Guardian. I'm guessing those sources aren't in the pocket of Andrew Scheer. And now the OECD is signalling their worry - a group also not in the pocket of Andrew Scheer or the conservatives.
  #223  
Old 03-14-2019, 05:23 PM
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Which has nothing to do with the issue. They have a political bias, and the Toronto Star has the opposite political bias. We are, however, talking about Justin Trudeau and the SNC Lavalin scandal.

Your claim that "the reason it filled the papers" is because the National Post is biased is ridiculous. If that's so, well, why do I read so much about it in the Star? On CBC? In any Canadian news sources you care to mention?
Hey, I'm a USian, and I have read a pretty fair amount about this scandal...in US sources. I don't believe I have ever read anything that appeared in the National Post, com- or otherwise (about Trudeau or indeed about any subject). It seems quite peculiar, from where I sit, to ascribe what's going on to journalistic bias.

Would like to see the articles blaming Trudeau for cats stuck in trees, though. Would somebody like to point me in the proper direction? TIA.
  #224  
Old 03-14-2019, 07:58 PM
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One day in the Globe and Mail, every article and the editorial in the A section was essentially about this issue. I don’t see bias — The Star and National Post have done this as well. Conrad Black came out more positively for Trudeau than average calling it normal politics and blaming the executive rather than the SNC company.

That said, for better or worse, a certain amount of advocacy is unsurprising. Yes, it should have stopped after the first no. It should have been reported. It is of moderate concern since the judiciary requires political independence. Nothing criminal occurred - a low bar, perhaps, but still relevant. I would argue that the politicians involved are generally decent people. I do not think this issue deserves the coverage received, and I do think the coverage takes away from more important business. Still a very Canadian scandal. The only country I can think of where the government would be similarly threatened by a teacup storm might be Sweden.
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  #225  
Old 03-21-2019, 01:19 PM
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I can see why the opposition wants to emphasize this issue. But it seems there may be a little more. SNC says they never threatened jobs or movement, which seems incredible. Some ministers say there is more to the story. Iím sure there is, but I suspect most of the cat is out of the bag. And the government committee ended, seeming to satisfy very few people. Of course, some people donít really want to be satisfied. I still think this is a small storm although perhaps the teacup it is in is growing.
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  #226  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:16 PM
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What a shock that the Liberals investigated themselves, found themselves okay, and now want to close the issue and make it go away. What an amazing development.

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  #227  
Old 03-21-2019, 04:37 PM
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In the meantime, Trudeau's advisor has resigned. The top civil servant in his government has resigned. Two cabinet members in his government have resigned in protest over the treatment of Wilson-Reybould, and one of them said today that there is a lot more about this scandal than Canadians have been told.

But the Liberals say it's all done, and it was trivial, and there were nothing more than 'errors in communication'. So we should just believe them and move on. After all, they have no vested interest in papering over a scandal in an election year.
  #228  
Old 03-30-2019, 08:29 PM
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Trudeau now has a lower approval rating than Trump

And the Tories have a 10 point lead over the Grits, particularly in Ontario and BC, two key provinces for Trudeau. That's majority government territory.

Trudeau's also lost ground among young voters and women, which were two of his key constituencies.
  #229  
Old 03-30-2019, 08:44 PM
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And, on Friday, the former Justice Minister and Attorney General released an audio recording of a phone call she received from the Clerk of the Privy Council, who tells her at least 5 times that "the PM" wants her to give SNC-Lavalin the deal; expresses his frustration that she isn't using the legal tools they gave her in enacting the remediation agreement provision; reminds her that she's a Cabinet minister, expected to take direction from the PM; and says something to the effect that if it doesn't happen, the PM will find a way to make it happen.

Wilsn-Raybould keeps repeating that it's not appropriate for there to be political pressure in prosecution decisions; that non-partisan prosecutions are a basic constitutional principle; and that he is being inappropriate.

Now, she knew it was being recorded and he didn't, which is a factor to assess in credibility.

It's 17 minutes long, but worth listening to; embedded in this CBC article:

PM wanted SNC-Lavalin Deal 'one way or another'
  #230  
Old 03-31-2019, 03:09 PM
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Someone set me straight if I'm totally off base here, but I am frankly getting sick of hearing about Wilson-Reybould. It seems that every time I turn to the CBC News website, there she is again, and lately looking rather disturbingly smug. The recording that she made may be legal under federal law under the "one party consent" rule, but it strikes me as highly unethical and done with malicious intent, and tends to support the rumours about her past that suggest that she's manipulative and self-serving. It seems that her sole objective here is to take down Trudeau and bolster her own credentials as a fearless champion of ... I'm not quite sure what. Throwing a major Canadian company under the bus for doing what is pragmatically necessary to win contracts in corrupt third-world countries?

Yeah, I'm basically just reacting emotionally here, but this woman is beginning to piss me off. In return for being elevated to a Cabinet post, she knifes the PM in the back to elevate her own stature. Whatever Trudeau may be, he isn't a corrupt law-breaking tyrant, and he's being persecuted for what was, at worst, a well-intentioned miscalibration genuinely intended to preserve jobs.
  #231  
Old 03-31-2019, 03:50 PM
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Someone set me straight if I'm totally off base here, but I am frankly getting sick of hearing about Wilson-Reybould. It seems that every time I turn to the CBC News website, there she is again, and lately looking rather disturbingly smug.
Blame the photographers then. It's easy to take many photos and then pick the one that captures the expression you are looking for. It's not Wilson-Reybould's fault that photographers are trying to portray her as 'smug'.

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The recording that she made may be legal under federal law under the "one party consent" rule, but it strikes me as highly unethical and done with malicious intent, and tends to support the rumours about her past that suggest that she's manipulative and self-serving.
Or, instead of malicious intent it was the result of her already being pressured and trying to protect herself from the bus coming her way that she knew she would wind up under if she crossed very powerful people by doing her job.

As for the 'rumors', gee, I wonder who could be planting those. Another example of how she may have been trying to protect herself from the kind of politics of destruction everyone plays these days.

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It seems that her sole objective here is to take down Trudeau and bolster her own credentials as a fearless champion of ... I'm not quite sure what. Throwing a major Canadian company under the bus for doing what is pragmatically necessary to win contracts in corrupt third-world countries?
Yes, exactly that. We have laws against *precisely that, because Canada ISN'T a third world country. And if you think SNC-Lavalin doesn't engage in the same tactics within Canada and other places, I would like to have some of that new legal stuff you are apparently smoking. Since that stuff affects short-term memory, I will remind you that just this February the now ex-CEO of SNC-Lavalin pleaded guilty in a bribery scandal involving a 1.3 billion dollar hospital contract in Montreal, which last time I checked was not in a third world country.

And just last November, SNC-Lavalin's Vice President pleaded guilty to an election fraud scheme in which Lavalin got around campaign finance laws by getting employees to donate to Liberal Party candidates, then reimbursing them through bogus expense accounts and other schemes.

SNC-Lavalin has been doing this for a long, long time. They are at the nexus of dirty politics snd dirty money and the Liberal Party in Quebec. That's why Trudeau was willing to risk everything to bail them out of their mess. And that's WHY the 'tool' of remediation was created in the first place, and was expected to be used to bail out the company. When the AG didn't play along, the knives came out.

I find it amazing that someone on the left, who would normally be reflexively opposed to exactly this kind of big business corruption and hold it up as an example of what's wrong with Capitalism, suddenly finds it absolutely no big deal at all when that corruption threatens to ensnare a Liberal politician.

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Yeah, I'm basically just reacting emotionally here, but this woman is beginning to piss me off. In return for being elevated to a Cabinet post, she knifes the PM in the back to elevate her own stature.
'Knifing someone in the back' is, I suppose, another way of saying 'Trying to follow the law, rather than the needs of the Liberal Party and it's man-child leader'.

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Whatever Trudeau may be, he isn't a corrupt law-breaking tyrant, and he's being persecuted for what was, at worst, a well-intentioned miscalibration genuinely intended to preserve jobs.
Except that the evidence we have is that he is EXACTLY corrupt and law-breaking. There is no question whatsoever that the Trudeau government pulled out all the stops behind the scenes to compel an attorney general to violate her own judgement and independent status and save a corrupt company that doesn't play by the same rules everyone else has to.

And I think you chose the wrong words when you said that this situation was 'at worst' a well-intentioned miscalibration. I would say that that is AT BEST what it was. At worst, it was a bought-and-paid for political party attempting to obstruct justice, and willing to destroy the career and reputation of an honorable woman to do it.
  #232  
Old 03-31-2019, 04:11 PM
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Sam Stone: Bravo.
  #233  
Old 03-31-2019, 06:15 PM
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Throwing a major Canadian company under the bus for doing what is pragmatically necessary to win contracts in corrupt third-world countries?
And I'm getting tired of that "it's only a Third world country so who cares if they're bribing governments to get contracts?" line.

Corruption hurts, especially in Third world countries with less resources. It means things like when that country pays $20 million out of their public treasury, their public funds collected by taxes to benefit their own citizens, to pay a company like SNC, that a chunk of that public money, maybe $5 million, is going to corrupt public officials. It essentially is a hidden tax on the contract. They're only getting $15 million worth of construction, but paying $20 million to that nice First world construction company. Everyone benefits, except the citizens of that Third world country, who are getting cheated by their own officials and that nice Canadian company.

That's why the OECD has identified public corruption as one of the major obstacles to development in post-colonial countries: OECD

That's why there is the 1997 OECD Convention on Combatting Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions: link

And that's why "squeaky-clean" Canada signed the Convention over 20 years ago, in 1997.

And that's why in 1998, to implement that international commitment, the Canadian Parliament made it a criminal offence for Canadian countries to bribe foreign public officials: Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act.

So SNC-Lavalin has had 20 years to adapt its business structures to comply with a Canadian law. They appear not to have got the meno, if the allegations are correct.

So this is way more than bribing foreign officials. It's about a major Canadian company charged with committing a serious breach of Canada's own criminal law.

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Yeah, I'm basically just reacting emotionally here, but this woman is beginning to piss me off. In return for being elevated to a Cabinet post, she knifes the PM in the back to elevate her own stature.
So if you get into Cabinet and are Canada's chief law enforcement officer, you should let politics take priority over your legal duty to ensure prosecutions are non-political? (And if she's trying to elevate herself in the Liberal Party, she's chosen an odd way to go about it.)

Wilson-Raybould is an experienced former Crown prosecutor. She understands the need for non-partisan prosecutions. And she also repeatedly warned the Cletk that he should listen to her, because she was tryng to protect the Prime Minister. She was right.

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Whatever Trudeau may be, he isn't a corrupt law-breaking tyrant, and he's being persecuted for what was, at worst, a well-intentioned miscalibration genuinely intended to preserve jobs.
I agree with Sam Stone : your interpretation is "at best". At worst, it's political interference in a prosecution - a type of corruption. He's not being "persecuted". He's being called to account for breaching a basic principle of our criminal law system.
  #234  
Old 03-31-2019, 11:59 PM
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"Wilson-Raybould is an experienced former Crown prosecutor"

Three years as a crown prosecutor is not what I would call 'experieced'. But whatever, we all have our own definitions.

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  #235  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:53 AM
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Blame the photographers then. It's easy to take many photos and then pick the one that captures the expression you are looking for. It's not Wilson-Reybould's fault that photographers are trying to portray her as 'smug'.
Ah, yes, if she always looks smugly self-satisfied, it's that mean old leftist Trudeau-loving media again!
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Or, instead of malicious intent it was the result of her already being pressured and trying to protect herself from the bus coming her way that she knew she would wind up under if she crossed very powerful people by doing her job.
How was she "protecting herself"? She was a Cabinet minister, and now she isn't, by her own volition. Instead, she's a political hero to Trudeau opponents, of which there are many, and instead of being an unknown she's now one of the most famous people in Canada. Wouldn't "promoting herself" be a better term?
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
And if you think SNC-Lavalin doesn't engage in the same tactics within Canada and other places, I would like to have some of that new legal stuff you are apparently smoking. Since that stuff affects short-term memory, I will remind you that just this February the now ex-CEO of SNC-Lavalin pleaded guilty in a bribery scandal involving a 1.3 billion dollar hospital contract in Montreal, which last time I checked was not in a third world country.
I'm wondering what you could possibly imagine the relevance of that little story could be. First of all if you were not aware that the construction business in Quebec has long been rife with corruption, well, now you know. And no, Trudeau didn't cause it. Secondly, this was something done eight years ago by a former president of SNC who was fired by the board seven years ago. What the hell does that have to do with Trudeau and with anything happening today? Practice "guilt by association" much?
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Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
And just last November, SNC-Lavalin's Vice President pleaded guilty to an election fraud scheme in which Lavalin got around campaign finance laws by getting employees to donate to Liberal Party candidates, then reimbursing them through bogus expense accounts and other schemes.
Never the facts get in the way of a good story! -- this was at the same time as the above, also involves a former executive; it invokes exactly the same "guilt by association" fallacy, and you also forgot to mention it involved donations to both the Liberal and Conservative parties!

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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Corruption hurts, especially in Third world countries with less resources. It means things like when that country pays $20 million out of their public treasury, their public funds collected by taxes to benefit their own citizens, to pay a company like SNC, that a chunk of that public money, maybe $5 million, is going to corrupt public officials. It essentially is a hidden tax on the contract. They're only getting $15 million worth of construction, but paying $20 million to that nice First world construction company. Everyone benefits, except the citizens of that Third world country, who are getting cheated by their own officials and that nice Canadian company ...

... So SNC-Lavalin has had 20 years to adapt its business structures to comply with a Canadian law. They appear not to have got the meno, if the allegations are correct.
That's a valid point about bribery and corruption. I'm not defending it, but describing it as a reality of business in some of these places. I'm not sure it's something that one company or one outside country acting alone can unilaterally fix. I'm just saying it's understandable to want to avoid an overreaction against such a company that would cost thousands of jobs, and that what now appears to be a takedown of a Prime Minister and a governing party over the issue seems like itself an overreaction. Of course conservatives think it's just fine, not because of any intrinsic issues of justice, but because it means that Trudeau, whom they loathe because of his popularity and progressivism, has fallen so far in the public perception that not only his government but maybe even his party leadership is threatened. Conservatives love this because it paves the way for the useless dipshit Andrew Scheer to become the next PM.
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
So if you get into Cabinet and are Canada's chief law enforcement officer, you should let politics take priority over your legal duty to ensure prosecutions are non-political? (And if she's trying to elevate herself in the Liberal Party, she's chosen an odd way to go about it.)
Not at all. If she's playing the long game, having your name in the paper every single day, week after week, as a supposed shining icon of Truth and Justice, is a pretty good start!
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Wilson-Raybould is an experienced former Crown prosecutor. She understands the need for non-partisan prosecutions. And she also repeatedly warned the Cletk that he should listen to her, because she was tryng to protect the Prime Minister. She was right.
If I was trying to protect someone, you know what I would not do? I would not secretly tape conversations that directly incriminate them, and then go public with them!
  #236  
Old 04-01-2019, 08:28 AM
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I think one of the most interesting comments was the Clerk, who said that it was like they were talking past each other.

They were. He was talking politics. She was talking about a key constitutional principle that limits politics. She was warning them that what they were doing could cause them more trouble than if SNC was fined. She was right.
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Old 04-01-2019, 02:19 PM
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One party consent while tape-recording a conversation may not be illegal, but it certainly is sleazy.

When one party is taping another secretly, the party doing the taping has all the power. They go into the conversation with an agenda; "Let's see if I can get this person to say something compromising, so that I then have power over them."

Here's a hypothetical situation that is also legal:

I do not like one of my colleagues at work. No reason - I just dislike them. I want them gone. So I secretly record a conversation with them. I lead them to talk about the Director. "what do you think of him? No, what do you really think? What do you think of their leadership? No really, what do you think?"

They end up saying some unflattering stuff about the company directors, thanks to my leading them in that direction. I then send the tape to HR and the directors. My colleague is fired. I promote my buddy to take his place. Win-win for me and my buddy.

All nice and legal.
  #238  
Old 04-01-2019, 02:40 PM
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I'm curious about the role these deferred prosecution agreements are suppose to fill. It seems odd to me to have 2 kinds of of prosecution for similar acts. Which to choose and if both could be applied why not change the attack approach as you go?

Personally, first party that makes it a platform promise to scrap this kind of legal mechanism gets my vote, though I reserve the right to change my mind if I can better understand their intended use.
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  #239  
Old 04-01-2019, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Grey View Post
I'm curious about the role these deferred prosecution agreements are suppose to fill. It seems odd to me to have 2 kinds of of prosecution for similar acts. Which to choose and if both could be applied why not change the attack approach as you go?

Personally, first party that makes it a platform promise to scrap this kind of legal mechanism gets my vote, though I reserve the right to change my mind if I can better understand their intended use.
The kind interpretation is that a Deferred Prosecution Agreement gives the Attorney General the option of a less-draconian punishment of a corporation if it seems like the crimes committed were either not known by the executive, or were minor, or the company had already shown corrective action by firing the guilty and amending its practices, etc. So for example, some company with no history of bad behavior gets caught making bribes, but it turns out that the briber was a sales manager going against company policy. Sales manager is fired, and company puts in oversight procedures to make sure it doesn't happen again. That company might not deserve to be barred from bidding in the future.

The more realistic reason for it, since it DPA was only brought in at the end of last year, was that it was a legislative trick to allow a major Quebec donor to liberals to escape punishment for something it has done repeatedly, and which was sanctioned at the highest levels of the company. The Attorney General has the sole right to determine if the DPA applies, and the Liberals expected that a loyal Liberal AG would do the 'right' thing and let politically-connected companies off the hook. They didn't count on an AG who might not play ball.

As a reminder, just last year SNC-Lavalin was caught in a scandal where they were sliding money to Liberals in violation of campaign finance laws by getting employees to donate the individual maximum to Liberal politicians, then the company reimbursed them through bogus expense claims. Part of the plea deal the VP agreed to conveniently allowed them to seal away the names of the Liberal politicians involved in the kickback scheme.

And this year they were also caught in a bribery scandal in Montreal, for which the CEO had to resign. And the the current situation involves them buying off Libyan politicians. Previous to that they had been involved in another bribery scandal in Bangladesh, which cost them the ability to bid on new contracts in that country and their exclusion from projects financed by the World Bank. They've also been under investigation by various other international governing bodies for their shady practices. The OECD even took the extraordinary step of warning Canada that if it didn't get a handle on SNC-Lavalin's shenanigans the entire country could be flagged as supporting corruption, which could cost Canada overall a lot of standing in the world.

In no way would this company seem to fit the criterion for alternative prosecution under the DPA, which is what the Attorney General determined, and which kicked off the current scandal as other players in the party repeatedly attempted to strong-arm her into changing her mind.
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Old 04-01-2019, 08:09 PM
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I don't dispute any of that, Sam, but if you could provide some links I'd be interested in reading them.
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  #241  
Old 04-01-2019, 08:30 PM
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Here's a decent overview: Deferred Prosecution Agreements Come into Force in Canada
  #242  
Old 04-01-2019, 09:49 PM
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Yes, that I'm familiar with.

I meant your comments about SNC-Lavalin's history of corruption.
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:21 PM
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Well JWR and Pilpot are toast, the tribe has spoken
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  #244  
Old 04-02-2019, 06:07 PM
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Is there something unfair about this, in your opinion? From the CBC article, "... trust with the two former cabinet ministers has been broken". Yeah, when someone tapes a phone conversation with me and then makes sure it ends up with the media in a smear campaign, I'd say "trust has been broken", wouldn't you?
  #245  
Old 04-02-2019, 06:18 PM
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I'd say it was broken when the AG said the DPA didn't apply, and Trudeau's cronies didn't accept her autonomy and kept pressuring her.

Northern Piper: Sorry, I forgot the other link. Here you go: A Closer Look at SNC-Lavalin's Somewhat Murky Past.

The source is the CBC.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 04-02-2019 at 06:18 PM.
  #246  
Old 04-02-2019, 06:44 PM
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Thanks. Will take a look.
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  #247  
Old 04-03-2019, 05:02 AM
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I'd say it was broken when the AG said the DPA didn't apply, and Trudeau's cronies didn't accept her autonomy and kept pressuring her.
Lawyers say Jody Wilson-Raybould may not have broken the law but her decision to tape a conversation with the privy council clerk may have crossed ethical lines.

... Rebecca Bromwich, a lawyer and professor at Carleton University, says there is a certain expectation in any workplace that people will act ethically even if their behaviour doesn't violate the law.

"Anytime a conversation is being recorded and then released publicly that becomes a really live issue of trust," Bromwich says. "There is an ethics of collegiality versus the letter of the law. And, as a professional and as a lawyer, I expect you to abide by an ethics of collegiality."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wil...tape-1.5082119
  #248  
Old 04-03-2019, 08:32 AM
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That's nice and all, and I don't necessarily disagree, but doesn't change the fact that Trudeau attempted to violate a fundamental principle of our system of governance and refused to take no for an answer. That some of the evidence for this was obtained in a shady fashion does nothing to exonerate him. Also, blaming Wilson-Raybould for attempting to cover her own ass when she saw that she was about to be thrown under the bus for standing up for that principle seems rather petty. It is probably impossible for her to continue in the Liberal Party at this point, but it should never have got to this point and it's the PMO to blame for that.
  #249  
Old 04-03-2019, 12:09 PM
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SNC-Lavalin whistleblower comes forward with new allegations

According to an insider from SNC-Lavalin who is now talking to authorities, the company has actually been borrowing money from the Export Development Bank to fund bribes, and bribing officials is standard operating procedure for the company.

Quote:
One EDC-backed SNC-Lavalin project is currently under investigation by the RCMP.
The case dates back to the early 2000s. RCMP investigators believe SNC-Lavalin funnelled $2.3 million from a contract to build an airport hangar in Algeria to pay bribes in Canada, according to a search warrant issued last year.

Michel Fournier, the former head of Canada's Federal Bridge Corporation, which maintains several of the country's largest overpasses, has already pleaded guilty to accepting the money in exchange for helping SNC-Lavalin win a $127-million contract to refurbish Montreal's Jacques Cartier Bridge.
And these are the guys who were supposed to be let off the hook by invoking a deferred prosecution agreement designed for companies who accidentally fall afoul of the rules and have no history of doing such things and who have implemented steps to prevent it from happening in the future. If Wilson-Reybould had used that tool, it would have been a dereliction of her office. She knew it, but Trudeau's peole and Trudeau himself were too stupid to understand, or too beholden to special interests to let the issue be dealt with properly.

The companies that lost those bids because of dirty dealings are the ones really hurt. And, of course, the taxpayers. But hey, it kept those crooked dollars flowing into the right political hands, so let's all look the other way, shall we?
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Old 04-03-2019, 01:56 PM
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And these are the guys who were supposed to be let off the hook by invoking a deferred prosecution agreement designed for companies who accidentally fall afoul of the rules and have no history of doing such things and who have implemented steps to prevent it from happening in the future.
You did notice that this whistle blowing is tied to activities in 2011? SNC's argument for being a candidate for the DPP, such as it is, lies with new corporate governance, new leadership and board. All of which apparently has happened.

Now I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them but this revelation is new only as an addition to its previous bribery issues.

It does raise keys points about EDC's auditing process back in the 2010-2012 time span. Luckily they're an arms length crown corp so we wont have to worry about histrionics about the Harper government.
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