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  #151  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:55 PM
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Pantastic wrote: "So you're saying you don't think the Democrats should actually strive to be better than Republicans..." Yes, I do. But having said that the old "when they go low, we go high" thing (which kind of takes on a different meaning in this whole context) isn't all that different functionally from bringing the proverbial knife to the proverbial gunfight.

And regarding the seriousness of the transgression, I did not characterize it as minor but as relatively minor. You know, as compared to Moore or trump.
  #152  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:55 PM
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People are biased in the direction of their political affiliation. People think more negatively of people they're opposed to politically, and are more apt to interpret their actions negatively.…
I think the strong negative reaction to misbehavior on the part of Republicans is based on the huge banner of Family Values! and Morality that they wave so vehemently. Seems like some kind of double standard going on there.
  #153  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:59 PM
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Are we to be similarly outraged by millions of photos taken by college students, like these?
Damn! Some of those pics are really impressive!
  #154  
Old 11-16-2017, 01:59 PM
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Al Franken strongly disagrees with you on this. He actually says that there's no excuse for the pciture, that he's disgusted with himself for taking it, and that it's obvious millions of women would feel violated by it. I think I'll take the accused's side in this instance! "For instance, that picture. I don't know what was in my head when I took that picture, and it doesn't matter. There's no excuse. I look at it now and I feel disgusted with myself. It isn't funny. It's completely inappropriate. It's obvious how Leeann would feel violated by that picture. And, what's more, I can see how millions of other women would feel violated by it—women who have had similar experiences in their own lives, women who fear having those experiences, women who look up to me, women who have counted on me.
Franken is a politician and he is way too smart to wade in to this fraught and highly charged discussion with anything approaching a nuanced argument. Instead he issues a straight apology with no ambiguity. No surprise there.

In the scheme of things the photo of him groping her is pretty minor (assuming he never actually groped her and only posed the picture). Tasteless sure. Not funny either. But if we are to expect every man and woman who made some lewd gesture at some point in their lives to lose their job we will have a big problem in this country.

This is a tempest in a tea pot.

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 11-16-2017 at 02:01 PM.
  #155  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:07 PM
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... (She was sleeping at the time anyway.)
This is an interesting defense.
  #156  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:09 PM
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Good apology, and I hope this does not ruin his career. If there aren't a bunch of other accusers popping out of the woodwork, I say let the apology stand (especially since the accuser accepts it) and move on. At worst, ask him to do some community service or something. Best if he volunteers to do it himself.
  #157  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:09 PM
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This is an interesting defense.
"Defense" of what?
  #158  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:10 PM
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She has been a frequent guest on Sean Hannity's show. About an hour ago I found some cites on Google of her identifying as a Tea Party supporter and saying she would like to "kick Obama's ass", but now all the search results are pointing to stories about today's allegations.

On the fifth page down I found this example of her promoting birtherism on Hannity's show.
Honest question, why is it fair to do ascribe political motivations to Franken's accuser but was so wrong to do this with Moore's accuser at the beginning?
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  #159  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:12 PM
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Twitter reports of another one incoming.
  #160  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:14 PM
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I think an ethics investigation is appropriate. If it finds no other incidents then I can see my way toward some minor punishment, but calls for resignation are too far. On the spectrum of recent notable incidents, I'd rank them about like this.

1. Weinstein
2. Cosby
3. Moore
4. Spacey

gap

5. Louis C. K.

big gap

6. Franken
7. Bush

I'm not a Democrat. This just doesn't seem that bad to me. I guess we'll see what the ethics investigation turns up though.
  #161  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:15 PM
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Honest question, why is it fair to do ascribe political motivations to Franken's accuser but was so wrong to do this with Moore's accuser at the beginning?
I believe Moore's accuser is a Trump supporter. So there's no apparent basis for a political motivation. (I believe the political motivation angle in the case of Moore's accusers involves them being manipulated by a Vast Left Wing Conspiracy, which is much shakier ground.)
  #162  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:19 PM
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(I believe the political motivation angle in the case of Moore's accusers involves them being manipulated by a Vast Left Wing Conspiracy, which is much shakier ground.)
Yup...

The liberals threw Weinstein, Cosby and Spacey under the bus to pave the way for accusations against Moore. They are tricksy like that.
  #163  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:21 PM
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I think an ethics investigation is appropriate. If it finds no other incidents then I can see my way toward some minor punishment, but calls for resignation are too far. On the spectrum of recent notable incidents, I'd rank them about like this.

1. Weinstein
2. Cosby
3. Moore
4. Spacey

gap

5. Louis C. K.

big gap

6. Franken
7. Bush

I'm not a Democrat. This just doesn't seem that bad to me. I guess we'll see what the ethics investigation turns up though.
You forgot Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes.
  #164  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:22 PM
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I should be pleased that a Democrat is in deep doodoo but I'm not. If a man's political career can be destroyed over this one incident then we should all be worried.
Why? Is it the sort of thing that 'we all' have done at one time or another, and need to fear being outed about?
  #165  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:25 PM
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You forgot Bill O'Reilly and Roger Ailes.
And the Donald.
  #166  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:27 PM
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I believe Moore's accuser is a Trump supporter.
Which one? There are 6 as of this morning.
  #167  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:30 PM
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Twitter reports of another one incoming.
Melanie Morgan. But not at all sexual in nature. He apparently felt that she was spouting bullshit on Politically Incorrect and expressed anger about it. Not really in the same league at all.
  #168  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:30 PM
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Pantastic wrote: "So you're saying you don't think the Democrats should actually strive to be better than Republicans..." Yes, I do. But having said that the old "when they go low, we go high" thing (which kind of takes on a different meaning in this whole context) isn't all that different functionally from bringing the proverbial knife to the proverbial gunfight.
If you don't actually go high, then you're not engaging in 'when they go low, we go high', you're doing something more like 'when we go low, we pretend to go high and then wonder why no one believes that we're going high'.

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And regarding the seriousness of the transgression, I did not characterize it as minor but as relatively minor. You know, as compared to Moore or trump.
Yeah, "I'm not as bad as Trump so you have to vote for me" worked wonders for the Clinton campaign! There's no possible way it could work out badly for Democrats to offer the voters a choice between "Trump" and "Not quite as bad, but we still lack principles and are still going to screw you", even if they tack "the screwing may be literal if that's what one of our Senators wants" onto the end of it.
  #169  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:33 PM
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"Defense" of what?
Groping a woman, or at least pretending to grope a woman.
  #170  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:35 PM
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But he's never gonna be president now.
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  #171  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:36 PM
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Melanie Morgan. But not at all sexual in nature. He apparently felt that she was spouting bullshit on Politically Incorrect and expressed anger about it. Not really in the same league at all.
Wow, talk about trying to minimize some seriously scary behavior. According to the article, he approached her backstage, kept following her and physically intimidating her, used his position to get her phone number, then repeatedly called her home to badger her. He only stopped after she threatened to call police and file a report! I think that physically following a smaller person around, and using your position to get private information about them so that you can badger them for days is a bit beyond 'expressed anger'.
  #172  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:36 PM
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Which one? There are 6 as of this morning.
I think there are 9, but who's counting?

I was referring to the first one, I think. But in any event as long as one or more were Trump supporters, it's harder to make the case that it's politically motivated.
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Groping a woman, or at least pretending to grope a woman.
The words you quoted were not a defense of any of this, or anything else.

If you trace back the exchange, you'll see I was discussing whether she had any unique insight as to exactly what Franken intended with his "grope" beyond what's visible from the picture. If she was sleeping, then she probably did not.

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  #173  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:39 PM
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I think an ethics investigation is appropriate. If it finds no other incidents then I can see my way toward some minor punishment, but calls for resignation are too far. On the spectrum of recent notable incidents, I'd rank them about like this.

1. Weinstein
2. Cosby
3. Moore
4. Spacey

gap

5. Louis C. K.

big gap

6. Franken
7. Bush

I'm not a Democrat. This just doesn't seem that bad to me. I guess we'll see what the ethics investigation turns up though.
I am putting Moore up to #1 due to the age of the victims.


Franken? Apologize and forever forget a run for the Prz. No resignation.
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  #174  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:41 PM
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Melanie Morgan. But not at all sexual in nature. He apparently felt that she was spouting bullshit on Politically Incorrect and expressed anger about it. Not really in the same league at all.
Not sexual but is reminiscent of Clinton's complaint about Trump following her on stage. Definitely sounds like harassment:
Quote:
“He approached me backstage, angrily called me out on those numbers and insisted he would prove he was right. He wouldn’t leave me alone, he kept following me. As a woman, his presence and proximity to me felt very threatening and intimidating,” Morgan said. “I didn’t realize his creepy behavior after the show meant it would continue in the days to come.

“He approached Carol, the show’s producer and demanded my home phone number, which was a clear violation of network protocol. I had thought that was the end of the story and was shocked when he started calling my home, badgering me repeatedly,” she said.

“I became fearful and called Carol to complain and asked her to tell him to back off. But he made another call after that. I thought that he might end up stalking me at my home in Northern California, it was that bad,” she said. “By the third phone call I was outraged and terrified, as he is really disturbed,” Morgan recounted.
From here.
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  #175  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:43 PM
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I think an ethics investigation is appropriate. If it finds no other incidents then I can see my way toward some minor punishment, but calls for resignation are too far. On the spectrum of recent notable incidents, I'd rank them about like this.

1. Weinstein
2. Cosby
3. Moore
4. Spacey

gap

5. Louis C. K.

big gap

6. Franken
7. Bush

I'm not a Democrat. This just doesn't seem that bad to me. I guess we'll see what the ethics investigation turns up though.
Hard to rank some of thees guys, but of your top 4, Cosby is the only one who drugged his victims, no?
  #176  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:43 PM
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So you think that the fact that she went on national TV to claim that President Obama was born in Kenya isn't relevant to evaluating the accuser's honesty and plausibility?
...I don't think her claims on TV are relevant to evaluating the accusers honesty or plausibility at all. Just like I don't think what she was wearing was relevant, if she was wearing make up or not or what her sexual history was.

Do you know why sex workers almost never come forward to the police when they are sexually harassed or assaulted? Its because they are judged on their job: they are judged on their past history, and they are (more often than not) dismissed because of a perceived lack of credibility. Accusations should be treated on their merit. And this one has plenty of merit. We have a photo. We have a credible story. We have a contrite accused. You are digging into her past for one reason only: to find a reason to disbelieve her, to dismiss her. Don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing it for any honorable reason.
  #177  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:44 PM
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Franken? Apologize and forever forget a run for the Prz. No resignation.
Not if he switches to the Republican party.
  #178  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:45 PM
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... If you trace back the exchange, you'll see I was discussing whether she had any unique insight as to exactly what Franken intended with his "grope" beyond what's visible from the picture. If she was sleeping, then she probably did not.
Then you have my apologies. I misunderstood the context behind the comment.
  #179  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:48 PM
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Wow, I stumbled on what I thought was going to be an amusing distraction from this and instead found an article from earlier this year with some interesting information. Part of the controversy during his initial run was rape jokes, and when it started hurting his numbers with women, he issued an apology that he apparently thinks of as "a little white lie". I think this is going to turn very bad for him very fast, him talking about an apology as just a 'white lie' less than half a year ago is going to really undercut the current one. And I'm sure the right-wing press will be all over it, no matter what other outlets do.

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Originally Posted by https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/29/books/review/al-franken-giant-of-the-senate.html
“Al Franken, Giant of the Senate” is, in part, the story of how Franken became a giant phony — how he pretended to be a serious person in public even as his inner comic monologue never stopped running. He recalls that during the 2008 campaign, he was attacked for such transgressions as a late-night writers’-room joke about raping Lesley Stahl, and a 2000 Playboy article entitled “Porn-o-Rama.” Franken didn’t think he should have to apologize for the cracks, which his opponents were taking out of context. “To say I was sorry for writing a joke was to sell out my career, to sell out who I’d been my entire life,” he writes. “And I wasn’t sorry that I had written Porn-o-Rama or pitched that stupid Lesley Stahl joke at 2 in the morning. I was just doing my job.”

But as the attacks caused Franken to bleed support from women voters, he saw that his explanations weren’t working. “I learned that campaigns have their own rules, their own laws of physics, and that if I wasn’t willing to accept that, I would never get to be a senator.” And so Franken took a deep breath and told a little white lie: “I’m sorry.”
  #180  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:51 PM
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Hard to rank some of thees guys, but of your top 4, Cosby is the only one who drugged his victims, no?
...good god.

Ranking these pieces of utter filth is bad enough: but lets not quibble if Bill "he drugged his victims" Cosby and Harvey "one of his victim has slept with a baseball bat next to her bed for the last 20 years" Weinstein should get the number one spot.
  #181  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:53 PM
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Wow, I stumbled on what I thought was going to be an amusing distraction from this and instead found an article from earlier this year with some interesting information. Part of the controversy during his initial run was rape jokes, and when it started hurting his numbers with women, he issued an apology that he apparently thinks of as "a little white lie". I think this is going to turn very bad for him very fast, him talking about an apology as just a 'white lie' less than half a year ago is going to really undercut the current one. And I'm sure the right-wing press will be all over it, no matter what other outlets do.
Ouch! That's going to leave a mark.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-16-2017 at 02:53 PM.
  #182  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:55 PM
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How does having a groper in the Senate help the Democrats? For moral reasons, but for political reasons as well, Franken should step down. Let at least the Democrats be the groper-free party. Franken can go on to try and make amends and do good things in other ways, perhaps, but as long as we have a groper in the Senate, it will be that much easier for Republicans to point at him as a “what about Franken?” distraction for a million other future disgusting things Republicans will be caught doing. This (addressing the massive problem of sexual assault/harassment, and belittling victims and accusers, in our society) will be a long and painful process, and zero-tolerance, at least for high political office, for groping and similar shittiness, should be one of the easiest parts of that process.
  #183  
Old 11-16-2017, 02:56 PM
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FWIW, I don't think Franken needs to resign over this. Though it could get interesting if other people then step forward, as has been the pattern.
I'm on the fence. If he was at a party and under the influence and said something untoward or got a little grabby, that might be forgivable if it's a one-time thing and not a pattern of conduct. Context matters.

But if he forcibly kissed her then we're getting into some seriously bad behavior here, and if other women come forward then it's disqualifying. I've liked Franken, too, but he doesn't get a pass just because he's not an R.
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:56 PM
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What I found more interesting about the proposed Stahl sketch was not the rape one but the one where "When she passes out. I put her in various positions and take pictures of her." Pretty similar to what actually happened here.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-16-2017 at 02:57 PM.
  #185  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:04 PM
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How does having a groper in the Senate help the Democrats? For moral reasons, but for political reasons as well, Franken should step down. Let at least the Democrats be the groper-free party. Franken can go on to try and make amends and do good things in other ways, perhaps, but as long as we have a groper in the Senate, it will be that much easier for Republicans to point at him as a “what about Franken?” distraction for a million other future disgusting things Republicans will be caught doing. This (addressing the massive problem of sexual assault/harassment, and belittling victims and accusers, in our society) will be a long and painful process, and zero-tolerance, at least for high political office, for groping and similar shittiness, should be one of the easiest parts of that process.
I'm just wondering how many other women will start coming out with charges (presumably true) about other congressmen. I never for a moment believed that sexual harassment was confined to the Republican party. I've just felt the need to point out the blatant fake piety of Republicans and their voters. It would make me feel better to know that progressives have higher standards in terms of holding sexual predators accountable. Time will tell, and Franken is probably a very good first test case. If it turns out that Franken has a pattern of behavior and not just a one-off 'mistake' then the Democrats should confront him. If they don't, then they shouldn't expect voters to be turned off by Roy Moore.
  #186  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:06 PM
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Honest question, why is it fair to do ascribe political motivations to Franken's accuser but was so wrong to do this with Moore's accuser at the beginning?
In Moore's case, it's accusers, plural. And they had no links to any of his political opponents. The WaPo story was very clear on that, as well they should be because it's one of the first questions anyone should ask when hearing about these sorts of allegations.
  #187  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:08 PM
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What I found more interesting about the proposed Stahl sketch was not the rape one but the one where "When she passes out. I put her in various positions and take pictures of her." Pretty similar to what actually happened here.
A lot like Louis CK with his masturbation jokes. I really don't see this ending well for him, it hasn't even been a day and it's exploding.
  #188  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:10 PM
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...I don't think her claims on TV are relevant to evaluating the accusers honesty or plausibility at all. Just like I don't think what she was wearing was relevant, if she was wearing make up or not or what her sexual history was.

Do you know why sex workers almost never come forward to the police when they are sexually harassed or assaulted? Its because they are judged on their job: they are judged on their past history, and they are (more often than not) dismissed because of a perceived lack of credibility. Accusations should be treated on their merit. And this one has plenty of merit. We have a photo. We have a credible story. We have a contrite accused. You are digging into her past for one reason only: to find a reason to disbelieve her, to dismiss her. Don't fool yourself into thinking you are doing it for any honorable reason.
You are comparing a documented record of right-wing activism to "what she was wearing"? I can't respond to that outside the Pit.
  #189  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
How does having a groper in the Senate help the Democrats? For moral reasons, but for political reasons as well, Franken should step down. Let at least the Democrats be the groper-free party. Franken can go on to try and make amends and do good things in other ways, perhaps, but as long as we have a groper in the Senate, it will be that much easier for Republicans to point at him as a “what about Franken?” distraction for a million other future disgusting things Republicans will be caught doing. This (addressing the massive problem of sexual assault/harassment, and belittling victims and accusers, in our society) will be a long and painful process, and zero-tolerance, at least for high political office, for groping and similar shittiness, should be one of the easiest parts of that process.
Hey, I agree with iiandyiiii!
  #190  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:12 PM
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I am putting Moore up to #1 due to the age of the victims.


Franken? Apologize and forever forget a run for the Prz. No resignation.
Weren't the Spacey and Moore allegations both for 14 year olds? Regardless, I put this Franken thing far lower down the scale. This is more like inappropriate and unprofessional versus should spend years in jail.

Not sure where I'd put Ailes and Oreilly. I honestly don't know the details on theirs, just some generalities.
  #191  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:16 PM
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Hey, I agree with iiandyiiii!
Me too.

Also the angry stalker story is far scarier sounding to me than the photo. That's mentally unhinged.
  #192  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Thing Fish View Post
You are comparing a documented record of right-wing activism to "what she was wearing"? I can't respond to that outside the Pit.
...you need to show why a "documented record of right-wing activism" casts doubt on a credible accusation that comes with a photo and a contrite accused. But you haven't done that. You are just "throwing it out there."

Whether you like it or not you are doing exactly the same thing as people who say "what was she wearing?" And if you can't respond to that outside of the pit its because you know what I'm saying is true.
  #193  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Spice Weasel View Post
Me too.

Also the angry stalker story is far scarier sounding to me than the photo. That's mentally unhinged.
It also adds a lot of credence to Tweeden's interpretation of the events leading to the photo. It's kind of easy to say 'well, maybe she was just misinterpreting what he was doing as aggressive, or maybe she's exaggerating' when it's just her word against his 'I don't recall it that way". But when you add a pattern of aggressive stalkery retaliation against women for minor insults/disagreements it's a lot harder to dismiss aggressive stalkery retaliation against women for minor insults/disagreements.
  #194  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:27 PM
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...you need to show why a "documented record of right-wing activism" casts doubt on a credible accusation that comes with a photo and a contrite accused.
It's not like it's an all-or-nothing situation, where either the entire incidents never happened or every detail she mentions and her entire interpretation is correct.

Clearly Franken did some inappropriate stuff here, but there are degrees as well, and there's room for some uncertainty as to just how severe his transgressions were.
  #195  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
It's not like it's an all-or-nothing situation, where either the entire incidents never happened or every detail she mentions and her entire interpretation is correct.

Clearly Franken did some inappropriate stuff here, but there are degrees as well, and there's room for some uncertainty as to just how severe his transgressions were.
...this has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
  #196  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:35 PM
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But when you add a pattern of aggressive stalkery retaliation against women for minor insults/disagreements it's a lot harder to dismiss aggressive stalkery retaliation against women for minor insults/disagreements.
What is this pattern you speak of?

Can you give us a timeline?
  #197  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:37 PM
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...this has absolutely nothing to do with my post.
It has everything to do with your post. Because it means that there's still room to cite the accuser's political affiliation despite "a photo and a contrite accused".

That said, at this point I personally wouldn't make too much of it at this point. (In particular, the fact that she accepted his apology suggests that she's not out to get him.)

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 11-16-2017 at 03:38 PM.
  #198  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:40 PM
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...you need to show why a "documented record of right-wing activism" casts doubt on a credible accusation that comes with a photo and a contrite accused. But you haven't done that. You are just "throwing it out there."
Credible accusation? She admitted there were no witnesses and admitted she did not tell anyone about it (except perhaps some nameless friends but no one in a position of authority). Franken disputes how the kiss went down and apologized for the picture but so far it is just a tasteless posed picture and no groping occurred (Tweeden was asleep so she cannot say whether she was groped). In the picture he is not groping her.

That a politician issues an apology rather than wade into the discussion is what they all do, right and left. Absolutely nothing new there. Politics 101.

It is fair to ask why this woman came forward with this information now. Why not during his previous election runs? Why not wait till his next election run (or especially if he chose to run for president)? What is special about now that she felt it was important to reveal this information that she did not feel needed revealing for the past eleven years?

Last edited by Whack-a-Mole; 11-16-2017 at 03:42 PM.
  #199  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:43 PM
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Credible accusation? She admitted there were no witnesses and admitted she did not tell anyone about it (except perhaps some nameless friends but no one in a position of authority). Franken disputes how the kiss went down and apologized for the picture but so far it is just a tasteless posed picture and no groping occurred (Tweeden was asleep so she cannot say whether she was groped). In the picture he is not groping her.

The a politician issues and apology rather than wade into the discussion which is what they all do, right and left. Absolutely nothing new there. Politics 101.

It is fair to ask why this woman came forward with this information now. Why not during his previous election runs? Why not wait till his next election run? What is special about now that she felt it was important to reveal this information that she did not feel needed revealing for the past eleven years?
She actually explained that in her write up. Her media team has been heavily covering the Weinstein scandal and she feels safe and supported enough to talk about it.

Do you understand how sexual trauma works, at all?
  #200  
Old 11-16-2017, 03:45 PM
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It has everything to do with your post. Because it means that there's still room to cite the accuser's political affiliation despite "a photo and a contrite accused".
...it has nothing to do with my post. Having a "documented record of right-wing activism" doesn't mean Leeann Tweeden is less credible than someone with a "documented record of left-wing activism".

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That said, at this point I personally wouldn't make too much of it at this point. (In particular, the fact that she accepted his apology suggests that she's not out to get him.)
You shouldn't be making anything out of it at this point.
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