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  #101  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by snfaulkner View Post
Why that specific dead girl and not, you know, the thousands of other dead people that have occurred over the years?
Because her death is in the news tonight.
  #102  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:23 PM
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I don't know about that. As I said in some other recent thread, it's an historic touchstone but it is not really the model. It's archaic and imprecise.

Cuomo obviously should have thought out his comments better before speaking. This didn't need hindsight to know that his backpedal should have been in his original statement. Pretty bad flub for such a pure politician.

"America's greatness had always hidden character flaws. Our most heroic achievement, the defeat of Nazi Germany, was done with segregated troops with African Americans being blocked fom participating in our democracy. We don't need to be great like that again. We can be better."
That's what I was going to say- saying that America was never that great is pretty much kind of an ignorant statement, in that he's essentially AGREEING with Trump in a sense.

I agree that he should have said something like "We don't need to make America great again- it is still great. <list some great accomplishments>. But we shouldn't look to the past and seek to rest on our laurels. We should look to make it greater! We should look to make it a place <list goals to make it greater>."
  #103  
Old 08-21-2018, 09:46 PM
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Well, maybe we were greater at some point in history, like say November 7th 2016.
That's not only a local peak of when your country was great, it's arguably the last time you were even good.
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  #104  
Old 08-21-2018, 10:03 PM
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By electing someone like Cuomo?
No, by unelecting somebody like Trump.

I don't have much admiration for Cuomo. He's a conniver. There are a lot of people I'd rather see as President. But if it comes down to a choice between Cuomo and Trump, Cuomo is far and away the better choice.
  #105  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:47 PM
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By electing someone like Cuomo?
Of course not. That isn't going to happen.
  #106  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:49 PM
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Because her death is in the news tonight.
Murdered by a guy who has worked for a GOP county official for four years.
  #107  
Old 08-21-2018, 11:55 PM
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Murdered by a guy who has worked for a GOP county official for four years.
Yeah, apparently he passed E-Verify despite being an illegal alien. I'm having a hard time laying the blame for this murder at Craig Lang's feet. I can imagine that it's shocking for you to learn, but "close enough for government work" isn't always.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-21-2018 at 11:56 PM.
  #108  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:39 AM
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The cynic in me realized that HurricaneDitka never apparently gave a damn about Mollie until he found out the man arrested in connection with her death is an illegal immigrant, but...

Never mind, there's no buts. Should the killer of Jake Wilson come to light and be a regular Iowan, there will be silence, not just from HD, but the shitheads in Des Moines and Washington. Should Sadie Alvarado's boyfriend (white dude) be charged with something other than leaving the scene of an accident, the crickets will be deafening.

For fucksakes, you're attempting to politicize the death of a young woman while crowing after every single school shooting that "nothing can be done", "it's too soon", and other horseshit.
  #109  
Old 08-22-2018, 01:12 AM
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The cynic in me realized that HurricaneDitka never apparently gave a damn about Mollie until he found out the man arrested in connection with her death is an illegal immigrant, but...

Never mind, there's no buts. Should the killer of Jake Wilson come to light and be a regular Iowan, there will be silence, not just from HD, but the shitheads in Des Moines and Washington. Should Sadie Alvarado's boyfriend (white dude) be charged with something other than leaving the scene of an accident, the crickets will be deafening.

For fucksakes, you're attempting to politicize the death of a young woman while crowing after every single school shooting that "nothing can be done", "it's too soon", and other horseshit.
Thank you.
  #110  
Old 08-22-2018, 01:37 AM
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... For fucksakes, you're attempting to politicize the death of a young woman while crowing after every single school shooting that "nothing can be done", "it's too soon", and other horseshit.
Do you think Ryan Kitchen's post #106 was an attempt to politicize her death?
  #111  
Old 08-22-2018, 02:31 AM
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I'm having a hard time laying the blame for this murder at Craig Lang's feet.
Pretend he's a Democrat. I'll bet you find it suddenly becomes very easy for you to do.
  #112  
Old 08-22-2018, 02:49 AM
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Pretend he's a Democrat. I'll bet you find it suddenly becomes very easy for you to do.
Wrong. The employer submitted the murderer's identity to E-Verify and got the all clear. That's a failure of government, not the employer.
  #113  
Old 08-22-2018, 03:14 AM
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Wrong. The employer submitted the murderer's identity to E-Verify and got the all clear. That's a failure of government, not the employer.
Well that's nice.
  #114  
Old 08-22-2018, 03:18 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Do you think Ryan Kitchen's post #106 was an attempt to politicize her death?
I think it's irrelevant drivel that would be unposted without your ignoble attempt to drag a dead woman into a thread when you showed no regard for her before finding out she died at the hand of an illegal immigrant, nor any of the other dead young people from Iowa that have died alone in the last couple weeks.
  #115  
Old 08-22-2018, 03:25 AM
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I think it's irrelevant drivel that would be unposted without your ignoble attempt to drag a dead woman into a thread when you showed no regard for her before finding out she died at the hand of an illegal immigrant, nor any of the other dead young people from Iowa that have died alone in the last couple weeks.
That sounds like a long-winded affirmation. Did I understand you correctly?
  #116  
Old 08-22-2018, 03:41 AM
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In short words for the slow ones, yes.


Given your evasion of the rest of the earlier post, it's accurate to say the only thing you care about Mollie Tibbets is the undocumented status of the man charged in her murder, and makes your earlier comments seem...insincere.
  #117  
Old 08-22-2018, 03:56 AM
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... Given your evasion of the rest of the earlier post, it's accurate to say the only thing you care about Mollie Tibbets is the undocumented status of the man charged in her murder, and makes your earlier comments seem...insincere.
No, it's not accurate. I brought up Mollie Tibbetts in post #90 only as an example to illustrate my point that 'I don't think that every American has always had a "great" life'. She was a young woman murdered in early adulthood. Regardless of who the murderer was, she was deprived of a "great" life. I mentioned her name because she happened to be in the headlines this evening and was an easy one to recall. The post I was responding to asked whether "America was great for those living under the boot of the Jim Crow laws". I suspect many of those people did not have a "great" life either. That was the point I was trying to make.

After that Rick Kitchen jumped in with his politicizing statement and I responded.
  #118  
Old 08-22-2018, 06:43 AM
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No, and I believe (in spite of a number of strawmen in this thread) that most right-wingers would have little difficulty acknowledging that America is not perfect.
Remain prolific and resolute, and some day one of your "why do libs hate America?" threads won't be cheapened by strawmen.
  #119  
Old 08-22-2018, 10:06 AM
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[QUOTE=HurricaneDitka;21161520]No, it's not accurate. I brought up Mollie Tibbetts in post #90 only as an example to illustrate my point that 'I don't think that every American has always had a "great" life'. She was a young woman murdered in early adulthood. Regardless of who the murderer was, she was deprived of a "great" life. I mentioned her name because she happened to be in the headlines this evening and was an easy one to recall. The post I was responding to asked whether "America was great for those living under the boot of the Jim Crow laws". I suspect many of those people did not have a "great" life either. That was the point I was trying to make.
[quote]

From what I saw, it sounded like she actually did have a pretty good life until her unfortunate end.

If I wanted to talk about people who did not have a great life, I would talk about the victims of people like Daniel Holtzclaw, a cop who used the authority entrusted to him by the government to rape women he was supposed to protect.

They are still alive, and suffering due to what this native born american did to them.

Shitty that she died, and I feel for her family, but she would be low on the list of people I would go to when talking about those who would quibble with the greatness of america.

What in your mind brings her to the forefront?

Quote:
After that Rick Kitchen jumped in with his politicizing statement and I responded.
He simply stated a fact. Is there anything untrue about what he said?

Why is he politicizing to state a fact in relation to your post, but it is not politicization for you to bring it up in the first place?

Last edited by k9bfriender; 08-22-2018 at 10:09 AM.
  #120  
Old 08-22-2018, 10:25 AM
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... Shitty that she died, and I feel for her family, but she would be low on the list of people I would go to when talking about those who would quibble with the greatness of america.

What in your mind brings her to the forefront?
I answered that in post #101. She was in the news last night, and therefore came to mind readily.


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He simply stated a fact. Is there anything untrue about what he said? ...
Not as far as I know, just like there was nothing untrue about what I said in post #107 (AFAIK), but the factual accuracy of either post isn't at issue when Chisquirrel and I were discussing attempts to "politicize the death of a young woman".
  #121  
Old 08-22-2018, 10:27 AM
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[QUOTE=k9bfriender;21162053]
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
If I wanted to talk about people who did not have a great life, I would talk about the victims of people like Daniel Holtzclaw, a cop who used the authority entrusted to him by the government to rape women he was supposed to protect.

They are still alive, and suffering due to what this native born american did to them.
If I want to talk about people that don't have great life, I'd talk about a guy I met on the subway yesterday,

He was panhandling. Obviously homeless, dressed in clothes that were little more than rags, obviously undernourished. And he exhibited the telltale signs of moderate to severe of cerebral palsy and moderate retardation. He seemed in fairly good spirits considering his condition and the fact that my fellow citizens were treating him like he was disgusting and/or contagious.

I think he appreciated my kind words more than the few bucks I was able to spare. But as a society we should be able to do better. And it mades me disgusted with my fellow citizens that were born into prosperity with the advantages of health that think the answers for people like this man lie in personal responsibility and bootstrapping.
  #122  
Old 08-22-2018, 10:59 AM
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Do not.
Cuomo's statement assumes the truth that Trump's great" America was the white-dominated, minority-debasing America of old. Everything he says must be read through that context. This is not a left-right split: it's a truth-lie split. Trump lies every time he repeats MAGA. Of course, his lies must be refuted at every turn. It's the responsibility of every politician and every decent citizen to do so.

Was Cuomo's phrasing "inartful," to use his term? I've already acknowledged that. But his words were wrong only to the extent that they allow Trump supporters to attack the words and divert attention from the basic truth of the statement. Since Trump is so fond of throwing the term treason around, I don't see why somebody who calls the racist, sexist, homophobic, Christian-first-and-only America of the past the only possible great America houldn't be labeled treasonous, if only toward every ideal of what real Americans should hold dear.

You say you don't agree with this truth. That stance is the equivalent of being a moon-hoaxer from our perspective. The reality is so obvious, and so heavily supported with mountains of evidence that it's impossible to imagine any argument to the contrary taken seriously even for a second. And none have been provided that even last a half-second.
  #123  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:14 AM
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You really can't see the difference between "Make America Great Again" and "[America] was never that great"? Those statements are essentially synonymous in your mind?
How are they different?
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Last edited by Steve MB; 08-22-2018 at 11:18 AM.
  #124  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:16 AM
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I think in Trumpland declaring something to be great makes it great. It's like a magic trick involving a blindfold.
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Or doing the vanishing doorway trick in front of dogs.
Or the one where Donald talks while Vladimir drinks vodka.
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  #125  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:33 AM
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How are they different?
One suggests America was "never" great (or at least never "that great") in all its long history. The other suggests it was.
  #126  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:36 AM
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My view of the left's versus right view of their love for America.

Imagine two sons discussing their mother.

Richard: Isn't mother wonderful?

Leonard: I just wish she wouldn't drink so much. I really think she has a problem. She gets drunk several times a week and lost her license after the second DWI. One of these days she's going to hurt herself or someone else. I think it might be time to consider putting her into rehab.

Richard: What are you talking about! Yes, she drinks a some now and then but its just to relieve a little stress. Those DWI's were totally bogus, that judge was just jealous because mom's more attractive than she is. Mom actually drives better when she's had a few. Rehab is totally uncalled for. Truth be told I actually like her better when she's a bit tipsy. You must just not love her like I do.
  #127  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:52 AM
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One suggests America was "never" great (or at least never "that great") in all its long history. The other suggests it was.
My observation is that one implies that slavery was OK, (before you freak out, we have had Republican pols say this publically) and the other gives the issue due recognition in light of that fact that all americans are people, not just the ones who were "OK" back then.
  #128  
Old 08-22-2018, 11:58 AM
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My observation is that one implies that slavery was OK, (before you freak out, we have had Republican pols say this publically) and the other gives the issue due recognition in light of that fact that all americans are people, not just the ones who were "OK" back then.
So why did Cuomo, in the span of a couple of days, switch to the one that you think implies slavery was OK? Is it a fair guess that he doesn't share your assessment? And assuming you agree thus far, if the lefty NY Governor thinks your analysis doesn't merit enough consideration to heed, can you imagine what regard I hold it in?
  #129  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:38 PM
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So why did Cuomo, in the span of a couple of days, switch to the one that you think implies slavery was OK?
Given your performance wrt context so far (which I think you'll agree has been "not great"), I'm going to need full context of every one of Cuomo's statements that you're referencing here in order to develop an opinion.
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  #130  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:44 PM
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Honestly I though this was a common opinion of the right. Conservatives (especially Trump) are always talking about how screwed up America is while the left seems to think it is a pretty great country. This is just my opinion from listening to stump speeches and the like.
I think it's more the incumbent vs, opposition dynamic. The party in power will focus on what's right with the country, so as to stay in power, and the party out of power will highlight what's wrong with the country, so as to topple the ruling party.


But you're right, Trump and conservatives are still talking up what's bad. Mainly because the country has moved leftwards for several decades.

Last edited by Velocity; 08-22-2018 at 12:46 PM.
  #131  
Old 08-22-2018, 12:47 PM
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But you're right, Trump and conservatives are still talking up what's bad.
Luckily for them, Trump's policies will give them plenty to talk about for decades to come.
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  #132  
Old 08-22-2018, 01:21 PM
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Maybe I see the problem, here. People who don't actually listen to lefties don't know what we think. They think Andrew Cuomo is like a serious leader with a huge following of lefties. Therefore, if he is a mealy mouthed hypocrite, that's really important!

How to put this? OK, you got Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Thor, Iron Man, the Hulk.....and then Aquaman.....
  #133  
Old 08-22-2018, 01:33 PM
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Given your performance wrt context so far (which I think you'll agree has been "not great"), I'm going to need full context of every one of Cuomo's statements that you're referencing here in order to develop an opinion.
It's been published right here in this thread, at least if you believe running coach:

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... I supplied the context upthread.
Why don't you start there?
  #134  
Old 08-22-2018, 02:12 PM
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It's been published right here in this thread, at least if you believe running coach:



Why don't you start there?
You seem confused. Let me clarify: Your post referenced two different quotes. For the first quote running coach kindly provided the context for the quote that you omitted, and that context showed that you did not represent the meaning accurately.

That's the first quote.

Now you are referencing a second quote, to which you also have not provided the context.

Please provide that context.
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  #135  
Old 08-22-2018, 02:18 PM
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You seem confused. Let me clarify: Your post referenced two different quotes. For the first quote running coach kindly provided the context for the quote that you omitted, and that context showed that you did not represent the meaning accurately.

That's the first quote.

Now you are referencing a second quote, to which you also have not provided the context.

Please provide that context.
I'm not confused. The second quote, in all its glorious context, was provided in post #3. Have you tried reading the thread from the beginning yet?

ETA: and I disagree that I omitted the context of the first quote. I provided a link to the video where you can watch it yourself, in context. If you're unwilling to click on the links I provide, I don't know how much further I can reasonably be expected to exert myself to provide the "context".

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-22-2018 at 02:21 PM.
  #136  
Old 08-22-2018, 02:25 PM
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I'm not confused. The second quote, in all its glorious context, was provided in post #3. Have you tried reading the thread from the beginning yet?
No, it can't have been post 3. That post just gives his clarification. You clearly wrote "switched", which implies a change.

So is there another quote? Or when you wrote "switched" did you mean "clarified without changing the meaning"?

As for context: you quoted a phrase out of the center of a paragraph. Including the words around the phrase changes its meaning. Do you think you did a good job with the context?
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  #137  
Old 08-22-2018, 02:39 PM
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No, it can't have been post 3. That post just gives his clarification. You clearly wrote "switched", which implies a change.

So is there another quote? Or when you wrote "switched" did you mean "clarified without changing the meaning"?
his "clarification" is a switch from "never" (in the first quote) to "always" (in the second quote).

If one day I said "America was never that great" and the next day I came back and said "Of course America is great and of course America has always been great. No one questions that", do you think many people would believe those two statements on two separate days have the same meaning, or something closer to the opposite meaning?

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As for context: you quoted a phrase out of the center of a paragraph. Including the words around the phrase changes its meaning. Do you think you did a good job with the context?
Yes, I included a link to the video. I think I did a "great" ( ) job with the context.
  #138  
Old 08-22-2018, 03:59 PM
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his "clarification" is a switch from "never" (in the first quote) to "always" (in the second quote).

If one day I said "America was never that great" and the next day I came back and said "Of course America is great and of course America has always been great. No one questions that", do you think many people would believe those two statements on two separate days have the same meaning, or something closer to the opposite meaning?
I'm not sure why you're resorting to analogy to describe the change in language when you could probably just refer to the actual text.

Here's the original language (from the bit you forgot to quote):
We will reach greatness when discrimination and stereotyping of women, 51% of our population, is gone, and every woman's full potential is realized and unleashed and every woman is making her full contribution.
Here's the clarified language (from another bit you didn't quote):
We will not go back to discrimination segregation, sexism, isolationism, racism or the KKK
Those two thoughts seem pretty similar to me. Certainly much closer than your analogy.

Quote:
Yes, I included a link to the video. I think I did a "great" ( ) job with the context.
Suppose you make a post saying something like "I never said that I like Nazis". and I quoted you saying "I like Nazis", but with a link back to your original quote. Would I have done a great job with the context?
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  #139  
Old 08-22-2018, 04:31 PM
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I'm not sure why you're resorting to analogy to describe the change in language when you could probably just refer to the actual text. ...
"never" and "always" do refer to the actual Cuomo quotes. They're the two words Cuomo used, on back-to-back days, to describe when America was great.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-22-2018 at 04:32 PM.
  #140  
Old 08-22-2018, 04:50 PM
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"never" and "always" do refer to the actual Cuomo quotes. They're the two words Cuomo used, on back-to-back days, to describe when America was great.
On a scale of 1-10, how shocked were you that his clarification didn't use exactly the same words, in the same order, as his original statement?
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  #141  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
his "clarification" is a switch from "never" (in the first quote) to "always" (in the second quote).

If one day I said "America was never that great" and the next day I came back and said "Of course America is great and of course America has always been great. No one questions that", do you think many people would believe those two statements on two separate days have the same meaning, or something closer to the opposite meaning?



Yes, I included a link to the video. I think I did a "great" ( ) job with the context.
Do you feel that there is no difference between the phrases "America was never that great" and "America was never great"?

It seems as though you are seeing the first phrase, but somehow, thinking that it was the second.

The first phrase does not contradict the clarification, though the second, incorrect phrase does.

Is that your confusion, that you are not reading the "that" in the phrase, and therefore misunderstanding it?
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Old 08-22-2018, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
On a scale of 1-10, how shocked were you that his clarification didn't use exactly the same words, in the same order, as his original statement?
I wasn't at all surprised that it used the opposite word ("never" vs "always") because the original statement was so politically tone-deaf.
  #143  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Do you feel that there is no difference between the phrases "America was never that great" and "America was never great"?
There's definitely a slight difference. I've tried to maintain the distinction, but it's gotten tedious and it's probably slipped out a time or two without the "that" in there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
It seems as though you are seeing the first phrase, but somehow, thinking that it was the second.

The first phrase does not contradict the clarification, though the second, incorrect phrase does.

Is that your confusion, that you are not reading the "that" in the phrase, and therefore misunderstanding it?
No, however, I don't agree that it's not a contradiction. For example (analogy warning), If I were to say "my car was never that blue" and then reverse myself and say "my car has always been blue", I think that's a clear contradiction. Do you agree?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-22-2018 at 05:24 PM.
  #144  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:26 PM
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Well, that's that, without Andrew Cuomo leading, guiding the way forward, we're just boned. Can't decide whether to shit or go bowling, without him. Damn!
  #145  
Old 08-22-2018, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
No, however, I don't agree that it's not a contradiction. For example (analogy warning), If I were to say "my car was never that blue" and then reverse myself and say "my car has always been blue", I think that's a clear contradiction. Do you agree?
I don't agree. "Never that blue" implies that it's blue, just not a particularly rich shade of blue. Would you ever use the phrase "never that blue" to describe your red car? (Are you a native English speaker?)
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  #146  
Old 08-22-2018, 07:23 PM
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The question is basically unanswerable until a mutually agreed-upon definition of "greatness" is arrived at. I suggest that trump's "Great America" would differ somewhat from Barack Obama's "Great America" if for no other reason than that Barack Obama would be in the latter.
  #147  
Old 08-22-2018, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
The question is basically unanswerable until a mutually agreed-upon definition of "greatness" is arrived at. I suggest that trump's "Great America" would differ somewhat from Barack Obama's "Great America" if for no other reason than that Barack Obama would be in the latter.
Obama would have a place in Trump's idea of a great America. Somebody has to carry the luggage, after all.
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  #148  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:03 PM
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It's fascinating how this thread keeps getting closer to moon-hoaxing threads as it gets longer. All the objections are of the "Look, here's a photo that shows a pixel that is golden instead of beige! That proves it was filmed in Nevada!" variety. No substance, no depth, no acknowledgement of refutations however they are stated. And never a look at the bigger picture or the context.
  #149  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:16 PM
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I don't know where on the political spectrum you land.
I'm asking your definition of 'on the Left'? Is it supporting civil and human rights, or fiscal responsibility?"
  #150  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:24 PM
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I'm asking your definition of 'on the Left'? Is it supporting civil and human rights, or fiscal responsibility?"
Neither, but probably even less on the fiscal responsibility front than not supporting civil and human rights.
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