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  #151  
Old 08-22-2018, 08:44 PM
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Then what is it, torture supporter?
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  #152  
Old 08-23-2018, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
There's definitely a slight difference. I've tried to maintain the distinction, but it's gotten tedious and it's probably slipped out a time or two without the "that" in there.



No, however, I don't agree that it's not a contradiction. For example (analogy warning), If I were to say "my car was never that blue" and then reverse myself and say "my car has always been blue", I think that's a clear contradiction. Do you agree?
Not at all.

I have a light blue car, you have a deep blue car.

I look at your car, and say, "My car was never that blue."

You say, "You are saying that you car isn't blue?"

I say, "My car has always been blue."

You say, "But you said that you car was never that blue, which means you contradicted yourself."

Does that exchange make any sense to you? At all?
  #153  
Old 08-23-2018, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Recently Gov. Cuomo (D-NY) said America "was never that great." Is this a common sentiment among those on the Left?
For growing numbers of us, it's just not an issue that we think about. It's like arguments over whether or not Joe Flacco is "elite," largely meaningless, while we're thinking instead of the important issues of the day that will make the nation better.

We've got serious problems to address. Too many and too serious to engage in puffery like our level of "greatness."
  #154  
Old 08-23-2018, 04:39 PM
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Why is it sooooo important for the USA to be THE BEST COUNTRY EVER IN HISTORY NOW AND 4-EVAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?

I think it's an untrue and extremely irritating viewpoint.

Yes, the US has done some wonderful, and also some terrible things, but come on, so has every other country on the planet. It's called humanity.

Plus, yelling that AMERICA IS THE GREATEST from every rooftop makes us look bad. Like we think everyone else sucks. Like all other countries are either shithole countries, (to quote a well known person,) or countries that aren't shitholes, but still are really really jealous of us, and want to be us.

It isn't true and it never was true. And bashing people who point that out doesn't make it true.

Last edited by Two Many Cats; 08-23-2018 at 04:40 PM.
  #155  
Old 08-23-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
It's fascinating how this thread keeps getting closer to moon-hoaxing threads as it gets longer. All the objections are of the "Look, here's a photo that shows a pixel that is golden instead of beige! That proves it was filmed in Nevada!" variety. No substance, no depth, no acknowledgement of refutations however they are stated. And never a look at the bigger picture or the context.
I very rarely comment in a thread I haven't read all the way through, but this is one of those times, because I feel so confident that what we have here is:

HD and perhaps fellow-travelers saying 'OMG THIS PROVES IT ALL LIBERALS HATE AMERICA ADMIT IT YOU LOSERS WE CAUGHT YOU'

...and others saying

'Cuomo clearly was going for something like 'America has always had issues to face, starting with displacing the inhabitants here when Columbus arrived,' but he disastrously misspoke, giving right-wingers their best gift since, like, ever'

...and then a lot of bitter back-and-forth in which the same two positions are repeated ad nauseam.

About right?
  #156  
Old 08-23-2018, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
I very rarely comment in a thread I haven't read all the way through, but this is one of those times, because I feel so confident that what we have here is:

HD and perhaps fellow-travelers saying 'OMG THIS PROVES IT ALL LIBERALS HATE AMERICA ADMIT IT YOU LOSERS WE CAUGHT YOU'

...and others saying

'Cuomo clearly was going for something like 'America has always had issues to face, starting with displacing the inhabitants here when Columbus arrived,' but he disastrously misspoke, giving right-wingers their best gift since, like, ever'

...and then a lot of bitter back-and-forth in which the same two positions are repeated ad nauseam.

About right?
Well, some of us just admit that for those who did not appear to be heterosexual males of primarily Northern European descent, he's right.
  #157  
Old 08-23-2018, 06:56 PM
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... HD and perhaps fellow-travelers saying 'OMG THIS PROVES IT ALL LIBERALS HATE AMERICA ADMIT IT YOU LOSERS WE CAUGHT YOU'...
Which post(s) of mine in this thread do you think most closely approximate this imagined quote?
  #158  
Old 08-23-2018, 08:09 PM
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Which post(s) of mine in this thread do you think most closely approximate this imagined quote?
All of them.
  #159  
Old 08-23-2018, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
For example (analogy warning), If I were to say "my car was never that blue" and then reverse myself and say "my car has always been blue", I think that's a clear contradiction.
I'm afraid you might to have to show your work on this one, because it make no sense at all. At the very least, describe the contradiction you see between blue and that blue, since the latter is a subset of the former.
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  #160  
Old 08-23-2018, 08:57 PM
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Maybe its a description of the car's emotional state, being sad and blue. It can happen, I had a Volkswagen bus that was severely bi-polar.
  #161  
Old 08-23-2018, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
All of them.
I guess I'll have to hope for a more serious response from Sherrerd. I'm not optimistic.
  #162  
Old 08-23-2018, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I guess I'll have to hope for a more serious response from Sherrerd. I'm not optimistic.
My response was totally serious. And so was Sherrerd's. I'm not sure how it could have been misinterpreted.

There is only one purpose behind a moon hoaxer thread. It's to take one tiny thing, rip it out of context, and use the falsified statement to prove that the other side has been wrong, and probably lying, all along. IOW, "'OMG THIS PROVES IT. ALL SCIENTISTS HATE THE TRUTH. ADMIT IT YOU LOSERS WE CAUGHT YOU'..."

Taking a badly stated truth out of context, even though the explanation was right there in the original statement, and trying to make the altered quote a common sentiment among a given group, is exactly what moon hoaxers and other conspiracy theorists do. The analogy is powerful. Everyone here has politely explained to you why the answer to your OP was "no." You failed to acknowledge them and merely continued to pursue the original condemnation. So the answer to the question you asked in post #157 is, seriously, "all of them."

If you keep asking questions to which you know the answer in expectation of somehow exposing the liberals who hate America, we'll keep treating your threads like we do moon hoaxer threads, by calmly explaining how reality works and showing that your posts do not reflect that. Or, sometimes, by putting how you are coming across in all caps. We did land on the moon. Liberals do not hate America. Simple stuff. Your posts have as much chance of refuting one as they do of the other.
  #163  
Old 08-24-2018, 06:08 AM
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The idea of being a liberal progressive is to always be moving forward (ie. Progress). Traditionally, liberals are people who want change, while conservatives, depending on how extreme the conservatism is, either want very little change (eg. "Stay the Course"), or romanticise the past, and actually want to move backwards. In other words, the mantra of the liberal is "We can do better", while the matra of the right is "We are doing great right now", and the far far right is "We did great yesterday". That's basically the very definition of being a Reactionary (ie. being on the far right).

Where I stand, being a liberal is that when people say "We are great right now" it means we have given up on ever being better. Stop doing that and get on with the business of actually improving people's lives who still need improving (ie. those who have been left behind -- mostly the poor, minorities). Things are NOT great, not fair, and we ought to do better. Complacency is a horrible thing, and claiming victory (by claiming greatness) is akin to kicking people (those who have been left behind with regards to the so-called promise of America) when they are down.

Stop claiming victory before the race is over, and actually work on winning. THAT'S the idea and goal of liberalism, at least how I see it.
  #164  
Old 08-24-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
My response was totally serious. And so was Sherrerd's. I'm not sure how it could have been misinterpreted.
You appear to be confused. Sherrerd hasn't yet responded to my question in post #157. And your response "all of them" isn't responsive to the question "Which post(s) ...".

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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
... trying to make the altered quote a common sentiment among a given group ...
What "altered quote"? Once again, I provided a link to the video right in the OP. The headline those fake-news fuckers at CNN chose was "Gov. Cuomo: America was never that great". Did they "rip it out of context, and use the falsified statement"?

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Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
Everyone here has politely explained to you why the answer to your OP was "no." You failed to acknowledge them ...
First off, the answer was not a universal "no". Here are some examples:

Quote:
Originally Posted by running coach View Post
... Let's throw in that we were one of the last nations to eliminate slavery and Jim Crow laws existed until relatively recently.
That's just scratching the surface of what keeps the nation from true greatness. ...
Does that sound like a "no" to you? It didn't come across that way to me. What about this one:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
In some ways I think so. And its nothing to be ashamed of. ...
That's definitely not a "no".

Here's another member of "everyone here" that's not saying "no":

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Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
I’m one who thinks “both sides” can be accused of blaming America. Sure, there are liberals who will agree that America is not great (as it can be) because it fails to implement the ideals it espouses - too much bigotry and unfair discrimination. ....
And secondly, I did acknowledge them:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Yes, several posters gave sincere and thoughtful responses (I consider yours among them) that ran the gamut from some agreement to disagreement. Thank you. I particularly liked the "War Over Patriotism" article.
You are wrong, both about what "everyone here" said, and about my acknowledgement. Agreed?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-24-2018 at 10:47 AM.
  #165  
Old 08-24-2018, 10:54 AM
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What "altered quote"? Once again, I provided a link to the video right in the OP.
I don't think that's a legitimate excuse. I asked you before: If you said "I never said 'I like Nazis'", and I quoted you as saying "I like Nazis", but linked to your post, does that excuse the way I misrepresented your quote?
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  #166  
Old 08-24-2018, 10:58 AM
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I don't think that's a legitimate excuse. I asked you before: If you said "I never said 'I like Nazis'", and I quoted you as saying "I like Nazis", but linked to your post, does that excuse the way I misrepresented your quote?
Your question seems off-topic here, but I'll answer it anyways, with the hope that you'll answer one for me: No.

And now for my question: Cuomo didn't say the "I never said" part, did he?
  #167  
Old 08-24-2018, 11:04 AM
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Your question seems off-topic here, but I'll answer it anyways, with the hope that you'll answer one for me: No.
OK, well that's what you did with Cuomo's quote. I'm glad you recognize it was wrong.

Quote:
And now for my question: Cuomo didn't say the "I never said" part, did he?
I don't understand what you're asking.
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  #168  
Old 08-24-2018, 11:18 AM
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The USA is the best country in the world and our bill of rights is still a gold standard.
Define "best". If you mean the richest, probably, but keep in mind that about 3% of the population controls over 90% of the wealth.

If you mean peaceful, then you must be joking.

Perhaps the Bill of Rights is the "gold standard", but how well do we actually live up to the ideals we preach? THAT is what counts the most.
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  #169  
Old 08-24-2018, 11:24 AM
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OK, well that's what you did with Cuomo's quote. I'm glad you recognize it was wrong.

I don't understand what you're asking.
No it's not what I did with Cuomo's quote. Cuomo did not say "I never said America was never that great" or anything even remotely like that. So I (and CNN) did not manipulate his quote in a fashion similar to your hypothetical. Do you understand that now?
  #170  
Old 08-24-2018, 11:42 AM
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No it's not what I did with Cuomo's quote. Cuomo did not say "I never said America was never that great" or anything even remotely like that. So I (and CNN) did not manipulate his quote in a fashion similar to your hypothetical. Do you understand that now?
My perspective is: Your initial post showed a phrase (not even a full sentence) cut out of the center of a quote. The words you selected did not accurately represent the quote when considered in context. And then you excused your misrepresentation by saying that you linked to the full quote.
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  #171  
Old 08-24-2018, 11:49 AM
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No it's not what I did with Cuomo's quote. Cuomo did not say "I never said America was never that great" or anything even remotely like that. So I (and CNN) did not manipulate his quote in a fashion similar to your hypothetical. Do you understand that now?
Oh, I see what you're saying. No, I don't think Cuomo said "I never said I like Nazis". That was simply an analogy.
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  #172  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:08 PM
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Oh, I see what you're saying. No, I don't think Cuomo said "I never said I like Nazis". That was simply an analogy.
Do you understand why I might object when you gave an analogy that includes a hypothetical "I never said ..." (which Cuomo didn't say) and then said "that's what you did with Cuomo's quote"?
  #173  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:10 PM
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My perspective is: Your initial post showed a phrase (not even a full sentence) cut out of the center of a quote. The words you selected did not accurately represent the quote when considered in context. And then you excused your misrepresentation by saying that you linked to the full quote.
You're certainly entitled to your perspective, but I wonder how much of it is driven by partisanship. Here's the CNN description of the video (which I linked to in the OP):

Quote:
Gov. Cuomo: America was never that great
New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo said America "was never that great" during a speech, drawing criticism from the Republican looking to unseat him. Cuomo made the comments in the context of a larger argument about gender equality and women achieving their full potential.
Do you think they were being significantly more fair to Cuomo than I was?
  #174  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:15 PM
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Do you understand why I might object when you gave an analogy that includes a hypothetical "I never said ..." (which Cuomo didn't say) and then said "that's what you did with Cuomo's quote"?
What you did with Cuomo's quote was misrepresent it, which was what the analogy was designed to illuminate, which I think it did.

I see below you're bringing in irrelevancies about CNN. Here's another analogy for you: I don't get to grab a woman by the pussy and then say "but Trump did it too" when the police arrive.
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  #175  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:20 PM
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What you did with Cuomo's quote was misrepresent it, which was what the analogy was designed to illuminate, which I think it did.
I think it was a bad analogy because it included a hypothetical phrase ("I never said") which wasn't anything like what Cuomo said.

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I see below you're bringing in irrelevancies about CNN. ...
I don't think it's irrelevant when I presented a quote similar to how a major left-leaning media outlet did, and lefty partisans here on the Dope want to jump down my throat about it but give CNN a pass.
  #176  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:25 PM
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Oh, you poor dear! Need a moment?
  #177  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I think it was a bad analogy because it included a hypothetical phrase ("I never said") which wasn't anything like what Cuomo said.



I don't think it's irrelevant when I presented a quote similar to how a major left-leaning media outlet did, and lefty partisans here on the Dope want to jump down my throat about it but give CNN a pass.
CNN didn't post their misrepresentation to this board. You did.

And if you don't like my analogy then substitute your own, so long as it involves:
  • misrepresenting what someone said
  • by cherrypicking a phrase from a middle of a longer quote
  • that robs of it context and changes the meaning
  • then claiming you did nothing wrong because you linked to the original quote
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  #178  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
You're certainly entitled to your perspective, but I wonder how much of it is driven by partisanship. Here's the CNN description of the video (which I linked to in the OP):


Do you think they were being significantly more fair to Cuomo than I was?
Yes. You left out the context and the remarks that followed. CNN quoted the full comments that you so carefully edited out.
And even now, you made sure that what you considered significant was in large type and bolded to make sure it overwhelmed the context.

Last edited by running coach; 08-24-2018 at 12:37 PM.
  #179  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:46 PM
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... CNN quoted the full comments that you so carefully edited out.
Not on the page with the video, which was my source.

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Originally Posted by running coach View Post
And even now, you made sure that what you considered significant was in large type and bolded to make sure it overwhelmed the context.
I did my best to mimick the size and appearance of the headline CNN chose here. I'd invite our dear readers to compare both. I suppose you could quibble that I should've used size 4 or 6 or picked a different font, but on the CNN page I linked to in the OP and this page, the headline (which CNN apparently considered significant too) "was in large type and bolded".

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-24-2018 at 12:47 PM.
  #180  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:48 PM
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You really can't see the difference between "Make America Great Again" and "[America] was never that great"? Those statements are essentially synonymous in your mind?
If one considers that each statement relies on a different set of criteria for what constitutes “greatness,” then there’s no need for anyone to shoehorn the statement into a box labeled “synonymous.”
  #181  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Not on the page with the video, which was my source.



I did my best to mimick the size and appearance of the headline CNN chose here. I'd invite our dear readers to compare both. I suppose you could quibble that I should've used size 4 or 6 or picked a different font, but on the CNN page I linked to in the OP and this page, the headline (which CNN apparently considered significant too) "was in large type and bolded".
Why are you still talking about CNN? The topic under discussion is YOUR misrepresentation of the quote. (I can use large fonts too)
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  #182  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:49 PM
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Why are you still talking about CNN? ...
Because my presentation of the quote mimics CNN's presentation here.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-24-2018 at 12:50 PM.
  #183  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Not on the page with the video, which was my source.



I did my best to mimick the size and appearance of the headline CNN chose here. I'd invite our dear readers to compare both. I suppose you could quibble that I should've used size 4 or 6 or picked a different font, but on the CNN page I linked to in the OP and this page, the headline (which CNN apparently considered significant too) "was in large type and bolded".
Headlines are conventional for news sites. The same format would be followed regardless of the story. There wasn't an attempt to obscure like you do.
  #184  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Because my presentation of the quote mimics CNN's presentation here.
So, if I'm understanding correctly, you are admitting that you misrepresented the quote, but think your misrepresentation is OK because of something CNN did?
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  #185  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:58 PM
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So, if I'm understanding correctly, you are admitting that you misrepresented the quote, but think your misrepresentation is OK because of something CNN did?
"They did a bad thing, why can't I do a bad thing?"
Rather than not doing the bad thing.
  #186  
Old 08-24-2018, 12:59 PM
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"They did a bad thing, why can't I do a bad thing?"
Rather than not doing the bad thing.
Or, alternatively: They did a thing. I did it too. Neither one of us thinks it's a "bad thing".

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-24-2018 at 12:59 PM.
  #187  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:00 PM
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So, if I'm understanding correctly, you are admitting that you misrepresented the quote, but think your misrepresentation is OK because of something CNN did?
No, you're not understanding correctly. I don't think that either CNN or I misrepresented Cuomo's quote.
  #188  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:05 PM
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No, you're not understanding correctly. I don't think that either CNN or I misrepresented Cuomo's quote.
Yeah, you did. Your original post eliminated the context of the quote.
  #189  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:13 PM
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Yeah, you did. Your original post eliminated the context of the quote.
We disagree on this point. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Must we keep beating this dead horse?
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Old 08-24-2018, 01:19 PM
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We disagree on this point. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Must we keep beating this dead horse?
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Recently Gov. Cuomo (D-NY) said America "was never that great." Is this a common sentiment among those on the Left?
There's your OP. Show me the context.
  #191  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:31 PM
Evil Economist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
We disagree on this point. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Must we keep beating this dead horse?
Well, if you admitted that you misrepresented the quote we could probably stop with the beatings.
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  #192  
Old 08-24-2018, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evil Economist View Post
Well, if you admitted that you misrepresented the quote we could probably stop with the beatings.
I don't believe I did. I don't believe CNN did either. Why would I admit to doing something that I don't believe I did?
  #193  
Old 08-24-2018, 02:15 PM
Vinyl Turnip is offline
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This is all fascinating, really. Compelling stuff. I hope this thread never ends.
  #194  
Old 08-24-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by running coach View Post
Context.

Let's throw in that we were one of the last nations to eliminate slavery
we eliminated it in the same epoch as many other countries did. TONS of other countries eliminated it decades later. In many cases, in many decades later. And we didn't have a king to do it by fiat as elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by running coach View Post
Jim Crow laws existed until relatively recently
too bad Europe did all their slave trading outside of their host countries, so they didn't have to deal with the aftereffects at home; their colonies just suffered a lot worse economically and politically than the blacks did here. Also, how did other large countries treat ethnic/racial minorities?

Quote:
Originally Posted by OP
Recently Gov. Cuomo (D-NY) said America "was never that great." Is this a common sentiment among those on the Left?
Yes; the left is oikophobic (doesn't like what they have), they think the grass is greener everywhere else, even when one side has a ton of grass which due to its size is hard to keep looking nice while the other has a very pretty small little plot. They're fed stuff from leftist profs who admired communism, and the sentiment of bringing down those who have it easy not to help anyone but for revenge is the idea.

Last edited by Epic; 08-24-2018 at 03:32 PM.
  #195  
Old 08-24-2018, 04:11 PM
Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
We disagree on this point. I don't see that changing anytime soon. Must we keep beating this dead horse?
We'll be happy to explain to you in so many words, as evil economist did, why your thinking about what you did is completely mistaken. You were wrong. Your equivalence with what CNN did is false, because they were totally different contextual situations. We'll keep beating this horse as long as you deny reality. I'm prepared to keep this up forever if you want to go down that path.

Please note that this behavior is absolutely identical to that of moon hoaxers. Thank you for the continual confirmation.
  #196  
Old 08-24-2018, 04:17 PM
HurricaneDitka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
We'll be happy to explain to you in so many words, as evil economist did, why your thinking about what you did is completely mistaken. You were wrong. Your equivalence with what CNN did is false, because they were totally different contextual situations. We'll keep beating this horse as long as you deny reality. I'm prepared to keep this up forever if you want to go down that path.

Please note that this behavior is absolutely identical to that of moon hoaxers. Thank you for the continual confirmation.
You seem to have conveniently ignored my rebuttal of your post in #164. How 'bout just a response to the very last line? Too much for you to manage?
  #197  
Old 08-24-2018, 04:30 PM
Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Conveniently, I just happened to be reading a letters to the editor column. The writer accused the New York Times and the Washington Post and [insert many other names here] and his local editorial writer, all independent newspapers, with independent writers and policies, of blindly writing the same anti-Trump screeds instead of reporting the truth. Somehow it didn't occur to him that the simpler conclusion would be that they are all observing and reporting the same objectivity reality that he, for whatever reasons, denies.

Coincidentally, we have a thread in which everybody has a chance to read and report on the same objectivity reality, and in which everybody comes down on one version of that truth.

Except you.

As long as you deny reality, I'll be happy to remind you of it, just like so many other independent posters.
  #198  
Old 08-24-2018, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
... I'll be happy to remind you of it...
But apparently not happy to respond to questions or admit your errors?

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 08-24-2018 at 04:35 PM.
  #199  
Old 08-24-2018, 04:52 PM
Exapno Mapcase is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
But apparently not happy to respond to questions or admit your errors?
One side has been making errors all along and has loudly denied ever doing so. I'm on the other side.

The issue is why you ripped a quote out of context and used it to attack a whole political consciousness. You cannot deny that's what you were doing. There was no need to start a thread with such a poisoned OP unless that was your intent. Again, everybody here independently read it that way, despite your desperate quibbles about language meant to deflect the opprobrium away from you.

You're wrong. You've been wrong in all your posts. You continue to deny it. We continue to insist about objective reality. It's very soothing to have reality to fall back on.
  #200  
Old 08-24-2018, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exapno Mapcase View Post
... I'm on the other side. ...
No, you're not and I've already shown where and why.
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