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  #51  
Old 03-23-2019, 01:35 PM
Wesley Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by Hung Mung View Post
“No new indictments,” to me, is certainly open to the interpretation that the SC feels that any extant sealed indictments are sufficient. Man, we still have a long way to go.
No idea if its true or not, but the no new indictments could mean several things.

It could mean Mueller isn't indicting anyone, but he will pass along his findings to a wide range of state and federal prosecutors who are free to use that info to indict

It could mean that he doesn't want to indict Trump or people close to him because of not wanting to indict a sitting president or people too close to him like Don jr.

It could mean there are sealed indictments that won't be opened until Trump is out of office.

Either way, I am interested in seeing how this all turns out.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 03-23-2019 at 01:36 PM.
  #52  
Old 03-23-2019, 01:37 PM
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Some reporters I follow on Twitter are saying that Trump and Giuliani are both in very good moods today. This has me panicking.
If Mueller exonerated him, then he exonerated Trump. Doesn't change all the other investigations into Trump and his administration. Supposedly the SDNY investigation concerns Trump more than the Mueller report does. Plus in the dossier it said that Trump was more worried about his financial ties to China being investigated than he was about the Russia thing.
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  #53  
Old 03-23-2019, 01:50 PM
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Some reporters I follow on Twitter are saying that Trump and Giuliani are both in very good moods today. This has me panicking.
That could be because the report is a total whitewash and says Trump is a Gift From God.

OR...
it could be that they are dumb enough to think since there are no new indictments coming everyone is off the hook. Obviously, since there are still other investigations going on in the SDNY and in various state level jurisdictions that line of thinking would be pretty stupid. Considering who we are talking about here I know which way I lean.

I'm sure if Trump and Ghouliani are in good moods it's probably because they expect to have success spinning the report as
NO COLLUSION NO COLLUSION BENGHAZI HILLARY'S EMAILS NO COLLUSION NO COLLUSION FAKE NEWS all the way to reelection in 2020.

Last edited by Kolak of Twilo; 03-23-2019 at 01:54 PM.
  #54  
Old 03-23-2019, 02:25 PM
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Trump and Giuliani are incompetent, irrational, and erratic to the point that their day-to-day mood, or more accurately, the third hand reporting about their mood, is not anything close to an actual indicator of any facts about the Mueller report.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 03-23-2019 at 02:25 PM.
  #55  
Old 03-23-2019, 03:20 PM
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I don't see how this report can be anything but a big fat nothing. Neither Trump Jr nor Kushner were indicted. They said there will be no further indictments. The worst they can say is that Trump obstructed justice, but that is unlikely to happen or create more than a two-day story if it does. Not saying they won't all be fucked when the SDNY is done with them, but this report will essentially exonerate Trump in the eyes of the right and center.
  #56  
Old 03-23-2019, 03:20 PM
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Given that it was released on a Friday afternoon, I think people looking for major revelations or reasons to cashier Trump are going to be disappointed. But time will tell.
Yes, the MAGA people, like Larry Corriea are saying that the Mueller investigation is a "nothing burger" as we arent impeaching Trump. Of course the dozens and dozens of convictions and indictments for trumps crooked aides are being ignored.


It's actually about what I expected, altho I did hope for some evidence of trump's knowledge and maybe collusion. But Trump wasnt going to be Impeached, we all should have known that.
  #57  
Old 03-23-2019, 04:53 PM
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Republicans are spiking the ball at the 10 yard line. If there is a DOJ policy against indicting a sitting president, then one should not conclude that the end of an investigation without an indictment is proof of innocence. There could be a sealed indictment of everyone whose last name starts with T and ends with rump. (Well, maybe not Barron).

The Mueller report may have an executive summary that reads like:

"While there is no such crime as collusion, there is probable cause the the crimes of conspiracy, racketeering, and money laundering are rampant within Individual 1's organization. It would be totally inaccurate to assume that all individuals that were not indicted are innocent, rather these cases not directly related to the scope of the investigation have been referred to various US Attorneys. It is in the best interest of the nation that Congress and the US Attorneys complete investigations before the 2020 election for the office of president is held, else the legitimacy of that election will be forever in doubt."

Then Barr will redact it to read:

"XXXXX XXXXX XX no XXXX XXXXX XX collusion, XXXXX XX XXXXXXXX XXXXX XXX XXX XXXXXX XX XXXXXXXXXX, XXXXXXXXXXXX, XXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXXX XXX XXXXXX XXXXXx XXXXXXXXXX X'X XXXXXXXXXXX. XX XXXXX XX totally XXXXXXXXXX XX XXXXXX XXXX XXX XXXXXXXXXXX XXXX XXXX XXX XXXXXXXX XXX innocent, XXXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXX XX XXX XXXXX XX XXX XXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXX XXXX XXXXXXXX Xo XXXXXXX XX XXXXXXXyX. XX XX XX XXX best XXXXXXXX XX XXX XXXXXX XXXX XXXXXXXX XXX XXX XX XXXXXXXXX XXXXXXXX XXXXXXXXXXXXXX XXXXXX XXX XXXX XlXXXXXX XXX XXX XXXXXX XX president XX XXXX, XXXX XXX XXXXXXXXXX XX XXXX XXXXXXXX XXXX XX XXXever XX XXXXX."
  #58  
Old 03-23-2019, 05:45 PM
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That's TOO good for comfort, BobLibDem! (Well done.)
  #59  
Old 03-23-2019, 06:21 PM
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Yes, the MAGA people, like Larry Corriea are saying that the Mueller investigation is a "nothing burger" as we arent impeaching Trump. Of course the dozens and dozens of convictions and indictments for trumps crooked aides are being ignored.
I wouldn't call 37 indictments 'dozens and dozens'. And even more importantly, I would note that 28 of them were against Russian companies, individuals, or GRU agents.

Lest we forget, this investigation was a counter-intelligence investigation focused on how the Russians tried to screw with the election. As far as I can tell, of the 28 Russian indictments, only one of them was even peripherally related to Trump, through Paul Manafort's dealing with the Ukraine (before he was involved with Trump). The rest are GRU agents that hacked Hillary's emails, and members of a Russian troll farm. There's nothing there about Trump.

Of the people near Trump's orbit, not one of them was charged with anything having to do with collusion. The indicted were Michael Cohen (campaign finance and tax and bank fraud), Paul Manafort (for crimes regarding the Ukraine and money laundering), George Papadopoulis (lying to the FBI), Roger Stone (lying to Congress), Mike Flynn (lying to the FBI), and Rick Gates who was Manafort's business partner (false statements and conspiracy). Notice that of those 6, three of them were nailed on 'process' crimes during the investigation, two for activities having nothing to do with Trump, and only Cohen for a crime (campaign finance) that can be associated with Trump.

I think it's fair to say that President "I pick the best people" picked some really poor people, but that is not evidence that he himself broke the law or colluded with Russians.

I mean, it wouldn't surprise me if he had, because I think Trump is a scumbag. But looking through the previous indictments, really only the Cohen campaign finance violation is about him at all. The rest are about Manafort and associates shady Ukranian business before he worked for Trump, and the Russian government's efforts to hack into U.S. computers and troll the U.S. people.

Quote:
It's actually about what I expected, altho I did hope for some evidence of trump's knowledge and maybe collusion. But Trump wasnt going to be Impeached, we all should have known that.
Tell it to the Democrats, who are still holding hearings in hopes of finding something to impeach him over.

Last edited by Sam Stone; 03-23-2019 at 06:21 PM.
  #60  
Old 03-23-2019, 06:37 PM
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Tell it to the Democrats, who are still holding hearings in hopes of finding something to impeach him over.
You might have a point when he has faced 1/10 of the scrutiny that Hillary has.
  #61  
Old 03-23-2019, 06:44 PM
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Some reporters I follow on Twitter are saying that Trump and Giuliani are both in very good moods today. This has me panicking.
If Trump were really in a good mood because the report is favorable to him, there'd be no way he'd be able to keep from tweeting about it.

His last tweet was about 28 hours ago.
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  #62  
Old 03-23-2019, 06:57 PM
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You might have a point when he has faced 1/10 of the scrutiny that Hillary has.
Huh. And here I thought we just saw the end of a two year large investigation.

But okay... I guess the rule for using the government and law to go after someone is that they haven't been 'scrutinized' enough. At least you are willing to admit it's not about the law, but instead about political payback.
  #63  
Old 03-23-2019, 07:03 PM
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Huh. And here I thought we just saw the end of a two year large investigation.

But okay... I guess the rule for using the government and law to go after someone is that they haven't been 'scrutinized' enough. At least you are willing to admit it's not about the law, but instead about political payback.
I admit no such thing. Hillary did not conspire with an adversarial nation to undermine an election, Chelsea Clinton did not meet with foreign nationals to dig up dirt on either Mr. Bush or Mr. Dole, the Clintons were not currying favor with a dictator to secure a big business deal, and so on and on and on. This was a legitimate investigation as I'm sure are the others being conducted by US Attorneys and NY Attorneys.
  #64  
Old 03-23-2019, 07:51 PM
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I don't see how this report can be anything but a big fat nothing. Neither Trump Jr nor Kushner were indicted. They said there will be no further indictments. The worst they can say is that Trump obstructed justice, but that is unlikely to happen or create more than a two-day story if it does. Not saying they won't all be fucked when the SDNY is done with them, but this report will essentially exonerate Trump in the eyes of the right and center.
I came here to say that I have a strong feeling that this is going to be Al Capone's vaults, v. 2.0.
  #65  
Old 03-23-2019, 08:09 PM
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If Trump were really in a good mood because the report is favorable to him, there'd be no way he'd be able to keep from tweeting about it.

His last tweet was about 28 hours ago.
It is very odd, but I bet legal advice is to remain silent until the report or a summary of the report is released.
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Old 03-23-2019, 08:34 PM
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It is very odd, but I bet legal advice is to remain silent until the report or a summary of the report is released.
He's done a pretty good job of communicating in a way that I am sure makes much of his legal team cringe. Admittedly trying to shut him up for a day or two is probably easier than just a general "Don't talk about the investigation."
  #67  
Old 03-23-2019, 09:23 PM
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Maybe he looks happy and isn't tweeting because they have him drugged to the gills.
  #68  
Old 03-23-2019, 09:32 PM
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I don't see how this report can be anything but a big fat nothing. Neither Trump Jr nor Kushner were indicted. They said there will be no further indictments.
Don't forget the EDVA investigation into Tom Barrack and all the Middle Eastern mischief.
  #69  
Old 03-23-2019, 11:27 PM
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Mueller is an iron-ass. He doesn't play his cards close to his chest, he plays them stapled to his tits. What I'm guessing is that the strictest interpretation would be that since he cannot indict a sitting President, he won't. Doesn't mean he will withhold evidence that such an indictment would otherwise be pending.

Maybe Pelosi et.al have figured that all the shit that would be required to actually run him out of town will take too long. By the time it could happen, it would be election time anyway. Perhaps they like the idea of Trump at the top of the ticket. Democratic leadership tends to be pessimistic, so I am satisfied that their reasoning is sound.

'Course, if I were at the table, I would have squeaked "But he might get us all killed!".
  #70  
Old 03-24-2019, 12:40 AM
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three of them were nailed on 'process' crimes
You mean like the 'process' crimes Clinton was impeached for? Glad to see the law and order crowd doesn't consider lying to law enforcement to be a bad thing.
  #71  
Old 03-24-2019, 02:10 AM
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You mean like the 'process' crimes Clinton was impeached for? Glad to see the law and order crowd doesn't consider lying to law enforcement to be a bad thing.
Yeah, that's how the MAGA crowd is explaining away the multiple Federal Felonies- they are "merely" "process crimes" so not really crimes, I mean they arent really going to real prison, they are going to Candyland, apparently.
  #72  
Old 03-24-2019, 02:13 AM
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The report is done and the wailing and gnashing of teeth of Democrats is loud in the land.
  #73  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:14 AM
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The report is done and the wailing and gnashing of teeth of Democrats is loud in the land.
You might want to recharge your hearing aid. What I hear are Republicans whistling past the graveyard.
  #74  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:25 AM
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Trump: Innocent President, or the most innocent President?
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  #75  
Old 03-24-2019, 07:39 AM
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The work has just begun. We've established the Trump campaign had contacts with Russia. We now need to see if they had any contacts with America!
  #76  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:02 AM
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Yeah, that's how the MAGA crowd is explaining away the multiple Federal Felonies- they are "merely" "process crimes" so not really crimes, I mean they arent really going to real prison, they are going to Candyland, apparently.
Every time I hear one of the few Trumpers I know minimize these offenses as “process crimes”, I remind them that being present in the USA without citizenship or a valid visa could also be considered a “process crime”.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 03-24-2019 at 10:02 AM.
  #77  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:42 AM
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The point is, there was nothing in the crimes so far that came anywhere close to the grand collusion narrative.
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Old 03-24-2019, 10:50 AM
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The crime is called conspiracy, not collusion.

But at least you're not crowing about vindication, are you?
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Old 03-24-2019, 10:50 AM
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The point is, there was nothing in the crimes so far that came anywhere close to the grand collusion narrative.
As already observed, collusion was the main narrative of the right, so as to be easier to dismiss the report when that was not the main point.

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  #80  
Old 03-24-2019, 10:52 AM
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Of the people near Trump's orbit, not one of them was charged with anything having to do with collusion. The indicted were Michael Cohen (campaign finance and tax and bank fraud), Paul Manafort (for crimes regarding the Ukraine and money laundering), George Papadopoulis (lying to the FBI), Roger Stone (lying to Congress), Mike Flynn (lying to the FBI), and Rick Gates who was Manafort's business partner (false statements and conspiracy). Notice that of those 6, three of them were nailed on 'process' crimes during the investigation, two for activities having nothing to do with Trump, and only Cohen for a crime (campaign finance) that can be associated with Trump.
Manafort was charged with lying to the FBI about his contacts with Konstantin Kilimnik. One of those contacts was when he went to Madrid in the middle of the campaign that he was running to pass internal polling data to Kilimnik. That is plainly collusion.
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Old 03-24-2019, 10:54 AM
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The point is, there was nothing in the crimes so far that came anywhere close to the grand collusion narrative.
Manafort traveling to Madrid to pass internal polling data to Kilimnik is straight up, obvious, no doubt about it, collusion.
  #82  
Old 03-24-2019, 11:17 AM
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Mueller did not prove that Trump was guilty of Mugwumpery. Therefore, Trump has been proven INNOCENT!
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:13 PM
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MSNBC and LA Times journalist Virginia Heffernan, relating what a source she's confident in told her about the Mueller report: "It's really damaging to the president".

https://twitter.com/page88/status/1109881090339155968
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:28 PM
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Multiple reports are that Barr will provide his summary (NB, not the entire report) to Congress this hour.

Brace for impact.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:35 PM
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Multiple reports are that Barr will provide his summary (NB, not the entire report) to Congress this hour.

Brace for impact.
"I just wanted to tell you good luck, Mr Mueller, we're all counting on you".
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:38 PM
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I don't understand why people are acting like we already don't have enough facts to know it would be incredibly damaging.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:41 PM
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“The Special Counsel states that ‘while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.’”
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:43 PM
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“The Special Counsel states that ‘while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.’”
What the actual fuck does that mean? You either commit a crime or you don’t.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:44 PM
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What the actual fuck does that mean? You either commit a crime or you don’t.
Ask Bill Barr.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:50 PM
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It's a total walk on the Russia stuff.

If the Dems run Bernie , he will be beaten so badly they will need dental records to identify his body.
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Old 03-24-2019, 02:52 PM
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We don't actually know shit until and if the full report is released. Other than the already massive amount of facts that we already know for a fact make him look incredibly guilty.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:00 PM
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maybe Trump will hold up some people in a Las Vegas hotel room and get convicted for that .
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:00 PM
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While this report essentially exonerates Trump on collusion, it convicts him of felony stupidity for making this process so much harder than it had to be. My guess is he'll be fucked one day, probably by the SDNY or Leticia James. I didn't think it was possible for me to feel so much whatever the converse word in German is for schadenfreude.

Last edited by KidCharlemagne; 03-24-2019 at 03:02 PM.
  #94  
Old 03-24-2019, 03:04 PM
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What the actual fuck does that mean? You either commit a crime or you don’t.
Are you kidding? Trump does all sorts of shitty stuff that doesn't rise to the level of crime. That doesn't mean it's not shitty.

I'm guessing the full report will have comments about bad judgment, questionable ethics, violations of norms and that sort of thing. They don't have to be criminal to be wrong or stupid.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:04 PM
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Oh and regarding obstruction, my guess is Barr's report is based on his view that in order for obstruction to occur there has to be an underlying crime.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:07 PM
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A careful reading of Barr's letter implies, at least to me, that there was indeed evidence of obstruction of justice, but it may not have risen to the level of evidence required for an indictment (at least, by the Trump AG's opinion).
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:28 PM
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What the actual fuck does that mean? You either commit a crime or you don’t.
It means there may be evidence of something, but not enough evidence to bring more charges - at least not as it relates to the special counsel's investigative focus, which was the 2016 campaign. In other words, "crimes may have been committed, but we're not sure we can prove it and aren't going t spend more resources to try it, especially considering how politically polarizing such a trial could become."

Last edited by asahi; 03-24-2019 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:32 PM
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A careful reading of Barr's letter implies, at least to me, that there was indeed evidence of obstruction of justice, but it may not have risen to the level of evidence required for an indictment (at least, by the Trump AG's opinion).
It's impossible not to consider the political ramifications of criminal prosecutions. Even in the case of Trump's children, who almost certainly did something illegal, bringing them in front of jury would touch off a holy war, and my guess is that Mueller probably concluded that it's just not worth it. That may not be what the letter of the law says ought to be done, but we live in the real world. I think that's also what James Comey in-artfully tried to communicate at several stages during the Hillary Clinton investigation, which is not to compare their conduct, but it just shows that politics is always a thing when investigating political people, and the higher the office, the greater the care prosecutors have to take in considering whether to move forward with indictments.
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Old 03-24-2019, 03:59 PM
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So how was him asking directly on TV for Russia to hack emails, how was the Trump Tower meeting re: dirt on HRC, how are the Trump Tower Moscow lies all not "working with Russia to effect the election?"

I really don't understand how the Trump Tower meeting "about adoption" they lied about over and over again isn't enough by itself. Below is a summarization on such other questionable actions. I don't understand the Mueller conclusion. I hope someone can help explain.

Quote:
Some questions that need answering;

Why did Trump's Campaign Chairman and Deputy Campaign Chairman meet with a former Russian intelligence officer?

Konstatin Kilimnik met with Trump Campaign Chairman Manafort and Deputy Campaign Chairman Gates on August 2nd 2016 where Manafort shared internal polling data with the Russian operative. According to Andrew Weissman, a prosecutor on Special Counsel Mueller's team, the meeting is “very much to the heart of what the special counsel’s office is investigating."[1]

Why did the Trump Campaign meet with Russian operatives during the 2016 Presidential Campaign at the Trump Tower?

One of the Russian operatives, Natalia Veselnitskaya, is an outspoken opponent of the Magnitsky Act.[2] Trump Jr. admitted to discussing adoptions, which means they discussed Russian sanctions. Russia banned Americans from adopting Russian orphans in retaliation for the Magnistky Act sanctions that targeted Russia's oligarchs.[3] While the Kremlin has vehemently denied Veselnitskaya working for the Russian government, Swiss authorities allege that she was involved in an attempt to enlist a foreign country's law enforcement agent as a double-agent to work for the Russians.[4] She did this on behalf of Russian Deputy Attorney General Saak Albertovich Karapetyan who was recently killed in a helicopter accident.[5] Moreover, in 2017 at the G20 summit Putin and Trump discussed adoptions and the Magnitsky Act.[6] The other Russian operative present at the infamous Trump Tower meeting, Rinat Akhmetshin, has ties to Russian intelligence and has a history of being embroiled in court cases related to hacking campaigns. Russian operative Rinat Akhmetshin also has ties to former Trump Campaign Adviser and convicted felon Paul Manafort[7]

Why did senior Trump Campaign officials direct Roger Stone to find out about Wikileaks releasing illegally hacked damaging information on the Clinton Campaign?[8]

At a time when then candidate Trump had been warned by the FBI that Russians and other foreign adversaries would try to interfere with the election and was asked to alert the FBI of any suspicious overtures to their campaign.[9] Despite the intelligence briefing then candidate Trump continued to deny any wrong-doing by the Russians during the campaign.[10]

President Trump repeatedly lied about doing business with Russia. It is an irrefutable fact that his personal attorney lied . The question is why?

Why did President Trump's personal attorney Michael Cohen lie to Congress about the Trump Organization pursuing an incredibly lucrative Trump Tower project in Moscow during the 2016 Presidential campaign?


Cohen pleaded guilty to lying to Congress about the Trump Organization pursuing a Moscow Trump Tower project during the 2016 Presidential Campaign.[11] Special Counsel Mueller charged Cohen for making false statements to Congress. Cohen made false statements to minimize the link between the Moscow Trump Tower project and then Candidate Trump as his company continued the venture well into the 2016 Presidential Campaign.[12]

1) Washington Post - How Manafort’s 2016 meeting with a Russian employee at New York cigar club goes to ‘the heart’ of Mueller’s probe

2) New York Times - Trump Team Met With Lawyer Linked to Kremlin During Campaign

3) The Atlantic - Why Does the Kremlin Care So Much About the Magnitsky Act?

4) Fox News - Rogue Swiss cop under investigation for meeting Russian lawyer who was at Trump Tower

5) Radio Free Europe Radio Liberty - Russian Prosecutor Linked to Trump Tower Lawyer, Other Kremlin Intrigue, Dies In Chopper Crash

6) BBC - Why did Putin talk to Trump about 'adoption'?

7) New York Times - Lobbyist at Trump Campaign Meeting Has a Web of Russian Connections

8) U.S. Department of Justice - UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. ROGER JASON STONE, JR.

9) NBC - FBI warned Trump in 2016 Russians would try to infiltrate his campaign

10) NBC - Trump Says He Doubts U.S. Intel Officials On Russian Hacking

11) Fox News - Ex-Trump attorney Michael Cohen pleads guilty to lying to Congress in Russia probe

12) U.S. v. Michael Cohen (1:18-cr-850, Southern District of New York)
How does all of that equal "full exoneration?"
  #100  
Old 03-24-2019, 04:00 PM
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iiandyiiii is offline
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,994
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
I don't understand the Mueller conclusion.
We know very, very little about what was actually in the Mueller report. All we know is the way a political appointee and ally of the President chose to characterize it. This tells us almost nothing.
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