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  #151  
Old 05-29-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
And the unrelenting hate, the loathing? Why do the things you describe account for hatred? A deep visceral hatred.
Hate, loathing, visceral hatred. Pretty strong. Do people generally like Hillary? No I don't think so. I don't think that Democrats on the whole lover her either. And Republicans on the whole don't like the Clintons. But I think this may be overblown a bit

But I'd put the dislike for Hillary by Republicans, just slightly above the dislike for Reagan by Democrats. I continue to be concerned that people on the left think this
deep visceral hatred" exists only on the right. The left hated Reagan, made fun of him, called him old, and "a dumb actor" "doesn't have all his marbles" and the like. Where is this on your "deep visceral hatred" scale.

And while we're at it, where is Trump on that scale?

The far left and far right are closer than you're admitting.
  #152  
Old 05-29-2019, 08:35 AM
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That's really weak.
Not really. A star supporter is saying women should vote for Hillary because she's a woman, with Hillary right there on stage with her, clearly happy with it. It got some press at the time. You're welcome to take the challenge of showing that Hillary felt "quite the opposite" to the way Albright did.
  #153  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss
And the unrelenting hate, the loathing? Why do the things you describe account for hatred? A deep visceral hatred.
Some people hate politicians from the other side. It really isn't any different for Hilary than for any other Presidential candidate.

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  #154  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:18 AM
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CarnalK, you never responded to my explanation of my usage of "reasonable". Do you care to?
  #155  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:33 AM
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No, I don't care to. I think I spent enough time discussing you as a poster for an Elections thread.
  #156  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:41 AM
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No, I don't care to. I think I spent enough time discussing you as a poster for an Elections thread.
That's a shame. I'm always trying to improve myself as a poster, so I'm interested in how my approach is understood, especially after I explain it, by the posters (2 of them have spoken up) who have expressed negative feelings about the language I use.
  #157  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by spifflog View Post
I don't know how old you are (not a slight in the least) but the left, hate, hate hated Reagan with a passion.
Not without reason, some of which I already mentioned.

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And there was a fair amount a ageism involved there too. Does anyone care about that? Are we going to rail against how evil that ageism was?
No. And no. It was a non-issue.

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Most of the items you mention above are big issue of contention to the left, but there are big issues that the left espouses that are an issue with the right. Doesn't make you a bad guy, or your neighbor a good guy. We can honestly agree to disagree.
Agreed.

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The very first item you mentioned was Nixon and Vietnam, but you conveniently left off the fact that two Democratic Presidents, Kennedy and Johnson got us into that mess to begin with. Did you forget that part, or didn't you think that was worth noting? Three Presidents of two different parties, same crapstorm.
Uhhhh, yeah, Kennedy and Johnson did throw a lot of men and resources into Vietnam, but really, the whole mess started with Eisenhower in the fifties. Be that as it may, Nixon deliberately undercut the Paris Peace Talks while campaigning in '68. He expanded the war into Laos and Cambodia. Gave the orders that let to the Kent State massacre in '70. Kept the war going long after the big brass came to the conclusion that it was a no-winner, and only started pulling out when his numbers started to tank.
Surprisingly enough, Republican Presidents have policy initiations that you don't like. Democrats have issues that the right doesn't like.

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And while I don't like Scaife and Limbaugh either, you don't think that Rachael Maddow and Chris Matthews are equally obnoxious to the right?
Don't watch either of them, but my understanding is neither Maddow nor Matthews have been caught in nearly as many egregious half-truths, distortions and flat-out whoppers as Limbaugh. And neither of them have financed a cottage industry of checkbook journalism and BS investigations the way Scaife did against the Clintons. That guy is a walking argument for the estate tax.

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Because it doesn't take a village. It's a way to describe an increasing role of government in ordering society. I reject it. I want the government to do the absolute least amount that is necessary.
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  #158  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:27 AM
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Shady business dealings.

Poor treatment of women.

Lies and conceals during investigations.

No actual policy experience or managerial skills -- "in over head"

Paranoid.

Greedy.

Will take whatever position seems to be necessary to hold power.


^^^ 100% of that describes Trump, so none of those can possibly the reason for the vitriol directed towards Hillary.
I am not sure if you follow politics but apparently a lot of people hate Trump too.
  #159  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
I am not sure if you follow politics but apparently a lot of people hate Trump too.
Post #119 beat you to this cunning comment. Naturally I'm sure you understand that the same people who hate Clinton's corruption, misogyny, lack of experience, greed, and paranoia view Trump's as no big deal.


(And don't say it goes both ways because I'm not buying that cow)
  #160  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:35 AM
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Thank you. This is the type of thing I was wondering about when I posted the OP. Whether it's mostly true or not seems not to be the issue. But even if it is, the hate directed toward her for so long and with such fanaticism, for behaviours that aren't particularly rare among powerful people, seems exceptional. The consensus here (with some exceptions) is that it's mostly because she's an 'unlikeable' woman who also committed the sin of being a possible, and then actual, Democratic presidential candidate.
There is a saying that no one like to be sold but everyone likes to buy. Hillary's vices of being paranoid, greedy, and power hungry are common among politicians but most are better at hiding it. Her husband is objectively a worse person but he is also charming, likable, and charismatic. It is the difference between being seduced and robbed by a charming con man and being mugged by a crack addict, both take your money but most people would hate the second experience much more.
In short she is not charming enough to be as evil as she is.
  #161  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
Post #119 beat you to this cunning comment. Naturally I'm sure you understand that the same people who hate Clinton's corruption, misogyny, lack of experience, greed, and paranoia view Trump's as no big deal.


(And don't say it goes both ways because I'm not buying that cow)
Are you saying that the same people who hate Trump's corruption, misogyny, lack of experience, greed and paranoia also hate Hillary? There is definitely some overlap but for the most part most Trump haters don't hate Hillary too.
  #162  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Are you saying that the same people who hate Trump's corruption, misogyny, lack of experience, greed and paranoia also hate Hillary? There is definitely some overlap but for the most part most Trump haters don't hate Hillary too.
The point is that Trump supporters who hate Hillary very clearly don't hate Hillary for corruption, misogyny, greed, or paranoia, since Trump very clearly demonstrates all those qualities as much or more so than Hillary Clinton.
  #163  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:40 AM
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Not really. A star supporter is saying women should vote for Hillary because she's a woman, with Hillary right there on stage with her, clearly happy with it. It got some press at the time. You're welcome to take the challenge of showing that Hillary felt "quite the opposite" to the way Albright did.
"Felt"? This little aside began when a poster wrote that Clinton "flat stated that women should vote for her because she was female" (my emphasis). The "opposite" of flatly stating something is...not stating it.

The closest thing I can find is something that people jumped all over, which she said during an election campaign interview with Ellen Degeneres:

"I'm not asking people to vote for me because I'm a woman, but I think if you vote for somebody on the merits, one of my merits is 'I'm a woman', and I think that makes a big difference in today's world."

I stand by my earlier assertion that 'spin has a nasty way of creating facts about Clinton that are only shades (sometimes very, very pale shades) of the truth.' In searching for this clip, I found lots of conservative websites that took only a portion of the sentence to declare that Clinton told people to vote for her because she's a woman (and one which slowed down the audio to make her sound demented). Which morphed into a belief that she 'flatly stated' such. If you want to argue otherwise, then you are continuing to twist and spin her sentiment (which she's expounded upon elsewhere when she's explained that 'women's issues like childcare' are social issues that impact the larger society).

I mean, was it an applause line? Yeah, it was. Was it done before a sympathetic audience? Yeah, it was. But can you imagine some other politician doing something as tawdry as using a platitude to garner cheers? Yeah, you can.

Clinton does not get the benefit of the doubt - ever (I mean, people who are skeptical sometimes won't even flatly deny that she's had people killed.) Part of it is because she's a woman. I think a larger part has been a multi-decade character assassination, such that everybody "knows" she's shady.
  #164  
Old 05-29-2019, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
And the unrelenting hate, the loathing? Why do the things you describe account for hatred? A deep visceral hatred.
To be fair, they have a deep visceral hatred for their political opponents. It is hard to tell sometimes, whether someone hates you because you are a woman, or because you disagree with them.

Most people don't hate someone or something because of a quality of that someone or something. They hate because they want to hate, and they latch on to whatever they can to justify it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddlegum
Are you saying that the same people who hate Trump's corruption, misogyny, lack of experience, greed and paranoia also hate Hillary? There is definitely some overlap but for the most part most Trump haters don't hate Hillary too.
No, I think what he very clearly said was that those who hate Hillary Clinton support Trump. So, it would seem as though corruption, misogyny, lack of experience, greed and paranoia were deal breakers in regards to her, but are not in regards to him.

If the people who hated Clinton for those reasons also hated Trump for those reasons, then that would be consistent. As they don't, then there must be something else than those reasons for them to hate her.
  #165  
Old 05-29-2019, 11:05 AM
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I remember when Bill Clinton asked his wife to work on the healthcare problems the country had and the bitching and moaning that started. People said it just wasn't right to have "someone" (that meant a woman) who wasn't elected working on it. As if the presidents never ask people to work for them who weren't elected. Unbelievable.
  #166  
Old 05-29-2019, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
"Felt"? This little aside began when a poster wrote that Clinton "flat stated that women should vote for her because she was female" (my emphasis). The "opposite" of flatly stating something is...not stating it.
That's not how most people use the phrase "quite the opposite". It makes your sentence redundant, ie you're saying "she didn't say that, in fact she didn't say that."

Regardless, of course her political opponents exaggerated the point but given the Ellen moment, the Albright moment and the "I'm with her" slogan, I don't think it's a very very pale version of the truth to say she thought she should get votes because she is a woman. That's not that horrible though and a pretty eye roll worthy reason to hate her.

Last edited by CarnalK; 05-29-2019 at 11:11 AM.
  #167  
Old 05-29-2019, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by CarnalK View Post
That's not how most people use the phrase "quite the opposite". It makes your sentence redundant, ie you're saying "she didn't say that, in fact she didn't say that."
Well, if it makes you feel better, I provided a cite where she did say, "I'm not asking people to vote for me because I'm a woman."

Quote:
Regardless, of course her political opponents exaggerated the point but given the Ellen moment, the Albright moment and the "I'm with her" slogan, I don't think it's a very very pale version of the truth to say she thought she should get votes because she is a woman.
Actually, her campaign slogan was "Stronger Together". But did she try to garner the 'female' vote? Yes, she most certainly did. Elections are often about categorizing people in terms of demographics. Because it's Clinton, though, that is deemed nefarious.

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That's not that horrible though and a pretty eye roll worthy reason to hate her.
Agreed. Which is why it's weird when shit like this gets dragged out as reasons she's hated.
  #168  
Old 05-29-2019, 11:25 AM
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There's more than one campaign slogan. Wikipedia lists "Stronger together", "I'm with her", "Fighting for us" and "Love trumps hate".
  #169  
Old 05-29-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by EarlGrayHot View Post
I remember when Bill Clinton asked his wife to work on the healthcare problems the country had and the bitching and moaning that started. People said it just wasn't right to have "someone" (that meant a woman) who wasn't elected working on it. As if the presidents never ask people to work for them who weren't elected. Unbelievable.
Hillary had a public service job before she even married Bill. Then, at age 30, she co-founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families; the next year she was appointed the first female chair of the Legal Services Corporation.

Contrast this with Jared Kushner, Peacemaker for the Middle East, about whom the best insider compliment is that he's "not the brightest bulb on the tree."

It might be amusing to hear what Hillary haters have to say about Jared.
  #170  
Old 05-29-2019, 01:47 PM
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As a Canadian and as someone who had never been terribly interested in such things, I didn't use to pay a lot of attention to US politics. Even so, I could see that Hillary was truly hated by some. But I never thought to ask why. Why was she so absolutely loathed by so many? Why did such deep hatred start? It was more than the usual political mudslinging, no?
Interesting seeing this question coming from you of all people, when you started the following Pit thread about Hillary right here on these boards:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...ad.php?t=88587
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Hillary Rodham Clinton, you are an insensitive sow. When every other politician has managed to put aside partisan considerations, you cling to parochial agendas. When your country is crying, you can't, for a second, speak from the heart, show emotion, or let down your guard.

Hillary Rodham Clinton, you are a bitch. The other guests on Larry King (senators just like you) answered openly and candidly. They shared their hearts and grief with the World. You evaded the questions. You segued into vacuous political gibberish. You wouldn't deign to answer honestly, at a time when honesty and candor are the balms for a wounded people.

Hillary Rodham Clinton, you are a condescending asshole. When asked if there might be, perhaps, some way for Rudy Giuliani to be re-elected, did you not sense that you were really being asked to share in the joy of finding a hero in our midst, in the midst of the horror? How could you piss so hard and so long on one of the few bright spots in all this bleakness? How dare you.

Hillary Rodham Clinton, you alone appeared sullen tonight during your President's speech. Your begrudging, perfunctory applause was more suited to some pissed-off fourteen year old forced to go with their parents to the symphony, than one who aspires to lead millions. Leadership means making sacrifices, Hillary. It means putting the greater good above your own wants.

Hillary Rodham Clinton, I think I may be beginning to understand where Bill's penchant for fine cigars and messy blow jobs came from. Intimate contact with another living, breathing, passionate human must have sure been tempting.
If you read the responses, even Sam Stone thought your bashing of Hillary was way over-the-top.

Last edited by Surreal; 05-29-2019 at 01:47 PM.
  #171  
Old 05-29-2019, 02:12 PM
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No, I think what he very clearly said was that those who hate Hillary Clinton support Trump. So, it would seem as though corruption, misogyny, lack of experience, greed and paranoia were deal breakers in regards to her, but are not in regards to him.

If the people who hated Clinton for those reasons also hated Trump for those reasons, then that would be consistent. As they don't, then there must be something else than those reasons for them to hate her.
Likewise people who hate Trump for those things should hate Hillary if they are consistent. Muppet news flash: people are not consistent.

People are always going to have bad feelings about the other teams political leaders but the hate Hillary and Trump get is much greater than most other politicians. The reason is that they are worse than other politicians.
  #172  
Old 05-29-2019, 02:50 PM
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Likewise people who hate Trump for those things should hate Hillary if they are consistent. Muppet news flash: people are not consistent.
I do not agree that Hillary Clinton is nearly of the same kind nor degree of corruption as Trump.
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People are always going to have bad feelings about the other teams political leaders but the hate Hillary and Trump get is much greater than most other politicians. The reason is that they are worse than other politicians.
In Trump's case, this is objectively true, in Clinton's it is more a matter of people believing far more about her than is actually true. For instance, when I was over at my parents' house this holiday weekend, my mother brought up the Clintons' murder of Vince Foster. I don't know where it went from there, as, by my covenant with them, they bring up politics, and I stand up and walk out, but she did seem to be rather incensed by this.
  #173  
Old 05-29-2019, 03:55 PM
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Interesting seeing this question coming from you of all people, when you started the following Pit thread about Hillary right here on these boards:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...ad.php?t=88587


If you read the responses, even Sam Stone thought your bashing of Hillary was way over-the-top.
Good for you that you remembered and that you chose to mention it from 18 years ago (in the gloom of 9/11). I, too, remembered it but after I posted this OP.

Indeed, part of my motivation for asking where the hate comes from was because I, myself, have changed. I believe I've seen through what I used to mostly ignore but sometime parroted. I've been much more aware lately. Not quite woke, but just napping.

(I changed regarding saturated fats.)

Last edited by KarlGauss; 05-29-2019 at 03:55 PM.
  #174  
Old 05-30-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Surreal View Post
Interesting seeing this question coming from you of all people, when you started the following Pit thread about Hillary right here on these boards:

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...ad.php?t=88587


If you read the responses, even Sam Stone thought your bashing of Hillary was way over-the-top.
By the way, since I posted my screed on Hillary on September 21, 2001, I've become fond of the following quote (ostensibly uttered by John Maynard Keynes):

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keynes
When the Facts Change, I Change My Mind. What Do You Do, Sir?
  #175  
Old 05-30-2019, 11:02 AM
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It would be interesting to learn if Bone would care to name a man in politics with virtually the same policy positions as Mrs. Clinton’s.

And if he finds that man to be objectionable to an equivalent degree as he finds Mrs. Clinton to be.

ETA: And to assess the general Hillary-hating public’s expressed opinion of him.
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Bloomberg comes to mind. If not for him, most gun control groups would have floundered and he is probably the single most influential person in the gun control movement. So yeah, fuck that guy.
Thank you for your response. To impose upon your generous nature once again, may I ask you for your observations about how widespread Bloomberg-hatred is, and to speculate on the reason(s) for any disparity you may have noted between that and Hillary-hatred?

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 05-30-2019 at 11:02 AM.
  #176  
Old 05-30-2019, 01:46 PM
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Two Poll Questions, Please


Nepotism?? Trumpists are "happy their man won because of Clinton 'nepotism'" ??

Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
Contrast this with Jared Kushner, Peacemaker for the Middle East, about whom the best insider compliment is that he's "not the brightest bulb on the tree."

It might be amusing to hear what Hillary haters have to say about Jared.
I'm too lazy to start my own thread. Here are my two poll questions:

(1) is "I'm glad Hillary didn't win" in the context of the 2016 election almost the equivalent of "I'm glad Trump won" ?
(a) Yes.
(b) Close enough. Pretending there's a significant difference is a path to obfuscation
(c) Not sure.
(d) No.
(2) Please comment on Jared, as requested in the quote above.
(a) I am not a Hillary despiser, so am under no obligation to write the 75-word essay.
(b) Sure, I'm a Hillary hater but I hate Jared too ... I hate most of them.
(c) Attached is a 75-word essay, my opinion on the fitness and/or morals of the Trump family.
(d) Even 75 words is too much for lazy me. Here are 20 words.
(Thanks in advance for your responses. Don't make me open a Poll thread. I would like to hear Clinton-Bloomberg comparisons from our conservatives; but why not Hillary-Jared comparisons as well? Note that Jared already has a post higher than any post Hillary had when huge animosity was building )

Last edited by septimus; 05-30-2019 at 01:50 PM.
  #177  
Old 05-30-2019, 02:19 PM
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I can't really put a finger on it but I'm not a huge fan of H.R.C.'s either (I wasn't in 2016 and I'm still not). Or maybe it's that there are so many different things about her that I don't like that I just don't feel like reviewing them in my head and summarizing them here. But if someone like me could find so many reasons to not vote for Bill Clinton's spouse, imagine how easy it must've been for people who REALLY didn't like her to vote for that other "person." (I use the term "person" very loosely when referencing he of the lying gob [thanks, Jeopardy!] and the horrible hair and personality who currently occupies the W.H.)
  #178  
Old 05-30-2019, 02:22 PM
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Nepotism?? Trumpists are "happy their man won because of Clinton 'nepotism'" ??



I'm too lazy to start my own thread. Here are my two poll questions:

(1) is "I'm glad Hillary didn't win" in the context of the 2016 election almost the equivalent of "I'm glad Trump won" ?
(a) Yes.
(b) Close enough. Pretending there's a significant difference is a path to obfuscation
(c) Not sure.
(d) No.
(2) Please comment on Jared, as requested in the quote above.
(a) I am not a Hillary despiser, so am under no obligation to write the 75-word essay.
(b) Sure, I'm a Hillary hater but I hate Jared too ... I hate most of them.
(c) Attached is a 75-word essay, my opinion on the fitness and/or morals of the Trump family.
(d) Even 75 words is too much for lazy me. Here are 20 words.
(Thanks in advance for your responses. Don't make me open a Poll thread. I would like to hear Clinton-Bloomberg comparisons from our conservatives; but why not Hillary-Jared comparisons as well? Note that Jared already has a post higher than any post Hillary had when huge animosity was building )
1) No. But only because what voting for that other "person"* got us is worse. So, so much worse (in my opinion. But I like to think that many, many others on the SDMB share that opinion with me).

*See above
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