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Old 05-30-2019, 12:58 PM
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Deceased G.O.P. Strategist’s Hard Drives Reveal New Details on the Census Citizenship Question


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/u...-hofeller.html
Quote:
But after he died last summer, his estranged daughter discovered hard drives in her father’s home that revealed something else: Mr. Hofeller had played a crucial role in the Trump administration’s decision to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census.

Files on those drives showed that he wrote a study in 2015 concluding that adding a citizenship question to the census would allow Republicans to draft even more extreme gerrymandered maps to stymie Democrats.
...
he wrote the key portion of a draft Justice Department letter claiming the question was needed to enforce the 1965 Voting Rights Act — the rationale the administration later used to justify its decision.
The documents are cited in a court filing by opponents of the citizenship question.
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:02 PM
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Isn't it quite a coincidence that the most blatantly obvious reason for adding the question is also the actual reason? Man, Republicans just keep tripping over coincidence.
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Old 05-30-2019, 01:27 PM
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Alas it may be too little too late.

From the Washington post article on the same topic
Quote:
It is unclear whether there is a way for lawyers challenging the citizenship question to get the new information to the Supreme Court, which will decide the case by the term’s end next month.
I realize that this isn't what is meant by this sentence, but part of me is thinking "Can't they just leave a few copies of the New York times around the gym where RBG works out.?"
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Old 05-30-2019, 03:56 PM
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Alas it may be too little too late.

From the Washington post article on the same topic


I realize that this isn't what is meant by this sentence, but part of me is thinking "Can't they just leave a few copies of the New York times around the gym where RBG works out.?"
RBG is already going to vote against the question. Roberts is likely torn between his belief that the executive branch may behave like a bull in a china shop, and his worry about being seen as partisan.
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Old 05-30-2019, 10:45 PM
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I wasn't talking about RBG specifically but just amused at the implication that this new information would somehow have to be smuggled in in order for the justices to become aware of it.
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Old 05-31-2019, 02:02 AM
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What would happen if the Governor of California simply announced that that question wouldn't be asked in his state, that census workers who failed to black out the question on their forms would be charged with a misdemeanor?

Would one of the GOP traitors try to arrest Newsom? If a Gopster Governor defied an immoral order he'd become a hero.
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Old 05-31-2019, 10:30 AM
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What would happen if the Governor of California simply announced that that question wouldn't be asked in his state, that census workers who failed to black out the question on their forms would be charged with a misdemeanor?

Would one of the GOP traitors try to arrest Newsom? If a Gopster Governor defied an immoral order he'd become a hero.
Census takers don't sit down with you with a form and ask you questions. Censes forms are mailed, or in the case of places that don't get mail, are hand delivered to the residence.

And messing with, or using census data improperly imposes serious fines. I was on the hook for 100k when I was just updating address information.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:00 AM
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Census takers don't sit down with you with a form and ask you questions. Censes forms are mailed, or in the case of places that don't get mail, are hand delivered to the residence.

And messing with, or using census data improperly imposes serious fines. I was on the hook for 100k when I was just updating address information.
In my scenario, the Governor might intercept mailings from the Census, and insert amended material. Would the DoJ arrest Newsom? Maybe ó he'd become a martyr to democracy.

These are serious times, folks. Our democracy is being taken over by criminals trying to make this a banana republic. Don't give me your "that would be illegal ..." spiels.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:05 AM
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In my scenario, the Governor might intercept mailings from the Census, and insert amended material. Would the DoJ arrest Newsom? Maybe ó he'd become a martyr to democracy.

These are serious times, folks. Our democracy is being taken over by criminals trying to make this a banana republic. Don't give me your "that would be illegal ..." spiels.
The state of California doesn't have any way to "intercept mailings." What do you envision, stopping and search USPS trucks as they come in from Nevada and Arizona? And, yes, doing so would be illegal. I agree these are serious times and the assholes are trying to take over our country. We'll have to find more creative and legal means to resist.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:06 AM
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Isn't it quite a coincidence that the most blatantly obvious reason for adding the question is also the actual reason? Man, Republicans just keep tripping over coincidence.
Did they ever really try to dispute this? I don't see anything new here. I didn't know this particular guy was involved, but there was never a question about what they were trying to accomplish.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:06 AM
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In my scenario, the Governor might intercept mailings from the Census, and insert amended material. Would the DoJ arrest Newsom? Maybe ó he'd become a martyr to democracy.

These are serious times, folks. Our democracy is being taken over by criminals trying to make this a banana republic. Don't give me your "that would be illegal ..." spiels.
Wasn't a 'spiel' Was simply a fact. And I imagine in your amended scenario, the Postal Inspector would have Newsom arrested first. Then the DOJ would get their turn I'm sure.

That is of course, it intercepting all of the census mailings would be anyway feasible.

Make no mistake, I would like to see Trumps entire crime syndicate in prison.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:23 AM
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Civil disobedience could take a different form. Given that this is clearly a Republican plan, and that the Republicans in control are consistently doing nothing to stop this explicitly racist plan, folks who oppose it could choose a method to sabotage it based on where they live:

-If they live in districts that are strongly Democratic, they could give false, inflated numbers to the Census bureau.
-If they live in districts that are strongly Republican, they could decline to return the survey.

Of course, Republicans could respond in an equal-and-opposite fashion. But the problem is that Democrats realize the census will be invalid with the racist plan in place, and can act to amplify the invalidity of the census through civil disobedience. Republicans who respond in kind will also be amplifying the census's invalidity.

I am not, of course, advocating this plan. But I am curious about how it could play out.
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Old 05-31-2019, 11:27 AM
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In my scenario, the Governor might intercept mailings from the Census, and insert amended material. Would the DoJ arrest Newsom? Maybe — he'd become a martyr to democracy.

These are serious times, folks. Our democracy is being taken over by criminals trying to make this a banana republic. Don't give me your "that would be illegal ..." spiels.
LOL!

1) fucking with the mail is a serious federal offense.

2) equating asking about citizenship on the census with "Our democracy is being taken over by criminals trying to make this a banana republic" sounds loony-tunes unhinged to normal people.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 05-31-2019 at 11:29 AM.
  #14  
Old 05-31-2019, 12:01 PM
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If you don't send the form in , they send someone to knock on your door to pick it up and you can fill it out while they are at your door.
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Old 05-31-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Procrustus View Post
Did they ever really try to dispute this? ...
Oh hell yeah. I've heard it implied that the reason was for simple accuracy of results, which is the opposite of what it would accomplish.
Anyway, I'll predict that you'll see denials of the intent in this very thread. Give it, say, a week from now. If you don't, I'll donate $20 to the charity of your choice.
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Old 05-31-2019, 01:02 PM
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LOL!

1) fucking with the mail is a serious federal offense.

2) equating asking about citizenship on the census with "Our democracy is being taken over by criminals trying to make this a banana republic" sounds loony-tunes unhinged to normal people.
Your quote reflects the notion that many Americans support the question. But "...loony-tunes unhinged to normal people...", however, is your interpretation, tacked on for your own purposes. Which is to say, nice try.
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Old 05-31-2019, 01:08 PM
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Did they ever really try to dispute this? I don't see anything new here. I didn't know this particular guy was involved, but there was never a question about what they were trying to accomplish.
Oh yes, they were claiming up and down that this question was posed for entirely non-partisan reasons. That doing so would help states make districts that comply with the voting rights act protecting minorities from having a district listed as majority Hispanic actually have only a minority of the eligible voters being Hispanic.

These documents reveals that the true goal was the exact opposite.

(which, yes, any non-partisan with half a brain already realized.)

Last edited by Buck Godot; 05-31-2019 at 01:08 PM.
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Old 05-31-2019, 02:00 PM
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In case there's any question as to whether Hofeller was involved in the census plan:
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/30/72823...nship-question
Quote:
Neuman provided an early draft of the Justice Department's letter requesting the question.

That draft letter includes a paragraph about using the Voting Rights Act to justify the question. It matches word for word a paragraph found in a document among Hofeller's files. The plaintiffs' attorneys say that shows Hofeller ghostwrote a portion of the draft letter.
Paragraph from the letter A. Mark Neumann provided to John Gore:
https://apps.npr.org/documents/docum...t/p120/a504025

Paragraph from Thomas Hofeller's files:
https://apps.npr.org/documents/docum...t/p123/a504023
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Old 05-31-2019, 02:18 PM
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The ACLU has notified the Supreme Court but this article says that it probably won't matter.

Quote:
The ACLUís letter states that a district court hearing in the matter is set for June 5, but it wanted to let the high court know it asked for an order to show cause whether sanctions or other appropriate relief are warranted in light of the new evidence.
...
Itís not exactly clear if the new evidence can or will have an impact on the Supreme Courtís decision, but Election law expert Rick Hasen, Professor of Law and Political Science at UC Irvine, has speculated it wonít change the conservative votes on the court.
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:22 AM
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So in a small act of civil disobedience, what would happen if a citizen said no to that question?
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Old 06-01-2019, 09:59 AM
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The Republican Party has already clearly stated that their only goal in this is to ensure the power of the Voting Rights Act. The fact that this would empower their political enemies is not lost on them, but nonetheless! they persist! A noble act of non-partisan sacrifice in the pursuit of justice and equality.

Let us take a moment to bask in the warm glow of this selfless courage.
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Old 06-01-2019, 11:54 AM
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The Republican Party has already clearly stated that their only goal in this is to ensure the power of the Voting Rights Act. The fact that this would empower their political enemies is not lost on them, but nonetheless! they persist! A noble act of non-partisan sacrifice in the pursuit of justice and equality.

Let us take a moment to bask in the warm glow of this selfless courage.
Yes! They are indeed pillars of integrity and sincerity..
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We must oppose wind turbines to protect birds!

We must shut down clinics that have a few bottles of expired hand sanitizer!

We must have voter ID to protect the sanctity of the vote!

We must protect the rights of the poor beleaguered Christians!

We must stop the evil welfare state from suppressing minorities by making them dependent on huge welfare checks and overly generous food stamps!

We must increase the number of guns to cut down on their use!

We must fight to protect workers' rights to receive union level wages without paying union dues!

We must fight for low wage jobs to protect high school students!
Can I get an amen!?
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Last edited by davidm; 06-01-2019 at 11:56 AM.
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Old 06-01-2019, 03:32 PM
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So in a small act of civil disobedience, what would happen if a citizen said no to that question?
There is a legal penalty for lying on the census forms, but as a practical matter, I doubt it's enforced very often, if ever.
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Old 06-02-2019, 04:28 AM
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There is a legal penalty for lying on the census forms, but as a practical matter, I doubt it's enforced very often, if ever.
So what if you just don't answer that question?
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Old 06-02-2019, 05:34 AM
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So what if you just don't answer that question?
There's a penalty for that too, but again, I suspect seldom enforced.
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Old 06-02-2019, 10:46 AM
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Along with the "no," not answering the question, why not N/A? One is actually filling in the blank with a third answer.
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Old 06-02-2019, 03:16 PM
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How about answering BOTH yes and no to the question?
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Old 06-02-2019, 03:29 PM
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How about answering BOTH yes and no to the question?
Aren't we all immigrants?
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Old 06-02-2019, 03:49 PM
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Aren't we all immigrants?
Not that Iím aware of, no.
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Old 06-06-2019, 07:30 AM
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Aren't we all immigrants?
I'm not.

One can be an immigrant and a citizen, however.
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:22 AM
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How about answering BOTH yes and no to the question?
Answering that you are both a citizen and not a citizen? That would still probably count as lying on the census, if one is concerned about such things.
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:57 AM
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LOL!

1) fucking with the mail is a serious federal offense.

2) equating asking about citizenship on the census with "Our democracy is being taken over by criminals trying to make this a banana republic" sounds loony-tunes unhinged to normal people.
Any opinions about what was revealed in the OP?
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Old 07-02-2019, 03:38 PM
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Hearing that the administration is folding on the census question issue and that the forms are being printed without it. Early yet, not a lot of second-sourcing on this one, so we'll see:

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1146155706363600896

"Administration has apparently folded on Census/Citizenship question. Still trying to confirm details and interpretation of decision. Story to come."
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Old 07-02-2019, 04:48 PM
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NPR confirming that:

Quote:
The Trump administration has decided to print the 2020 census forms without a citizenship question and the printer has been told to start the printing process, Justice Department spokesperson Kelly Laco confirms to NPR.
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Old 07-02-2019, 06:32 PM
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Cue Trump claiming that the Democrats are cheating by opposing the question so that all the millions of illegal immigrant votes can be counted.
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Old 07-02-2019, 06:36 PM
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He can say whatever bullshit lie he wants to, it's all he does. The good guys won a round, and a very important round it was. So go ahead Donnie, lie, fabricate (nevermind, that one's too complicated for you.), and bullshit away. I'll still be smiling.
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Old 07-02-2019, 07:00 PM
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Hearing that the administration is folding on the census question issue and that the forms are being printed without it. Early yet, not a lot of second-sourcing on this one, so we'll see:

https://twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1146155706363600896

"Administration has apparently folded on Census/Citizenship question. Still trying to confirm details and interpretation of decision. Story to come."
That's good. But we're not hearing anything about the envelopes: What if the solution they've found is printing a warning in large block letters on the envelopes? Something like

NOTICE: IF YOU MAIL THIS FORM YOU ARE GRANTING YOUR CONSENT TO A SEARCH OF YOUR HOME BY I.C.E.

...in Spanish, of course.
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Old 07-02-2019, 08:04 PM
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That's good. But we're not hearing anything about the envelopes: What if the solution they've found is printing a warning in large block letters on the envelopes? Something like

NOTICE: IF YOU MAIL THIS FORM YOU ARE GRANTING YOUR CONSENT TO A SEARCH OF YOUR HOME BY I.C.E.

...in Spanish, of course.
I'm trying to figure out why this is triggering some iota of a shadow of a memory that the GOP in some southern state tried in a relatively recent election, putting out flyers that said different things in English and Spanish?
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Old 07-03-2019, 04:11 PM
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https://twitter.com/MikeSacksEsq/sta...24615273013249

Racists gotta Race:

Quote:
SOURCE: The DOJ reversed course to Judge Hazel, told them that they've been "ordered" to try to get the citizenship question back on the census, and that no final decision has been made yet, but their "current plan" is to go directly to SCOTUS to bless whatever they decide.

Last edited by JohnT; 07-03-2019 at 04:11 PM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 05:01 PM
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I'm trying to figure out why this is triggering some iota of a shadow of a memory that the GOP in some southern state tried in a relatively recent election, putting out flyers that said different things in English and Spanish?
That does sound familiar. I'm not sure what search terms to use, but if it comes to me, I'll post.
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Old 07-03-2019, 05:12 PM
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Ted Cruz, Rick Scott modify message in Spanish-language ads: 'You do see some subtle manipulations'.
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Old 07-03-2019, 06:46 PM
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That's good. But we're not hearing anything about the envelopes: What if the solution they've found is printing a warning in large block letters on the envelopes? Something like

NOTICE: IF YOU MAIL THIS FORM YOU ARE GRANTING YOUR CONSENT TO A SEARCH OF YOUR HOME BY I.C.E.

...in Spanish, of course.

Damn hypocrites, using anything besides the country's One True Official Language Ordained by GodTM. Why, they're practicaly {attack of vapours} Liberals!
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Old 07-04-2019, 05:30 PM
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Interesting. And I bet there are more examples that just haven't become public.

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Damn hypocrites, using anything besides the country's One True Official Language Ordained by GodTM. Why, they're practicaly {attack of vapours} Liberals!
Win At Any Costô by the Republican Party.
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Old 07-04-2019, 06:55 PM
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I know it was brought up in the Pit but I see that this thread is lacking the transcript of the telephone session that took place yesterday. It's only 11 pages long but it's very entertaining.
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Old 07-05-2019, 02:20 PM
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If the president issues an executive order that deliberately orders personnel to ignore a Supreme Court ruling, the Democrats should impeach.
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Old 07-06-2019, 05:12 PM
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If the president issues an executive order that deliberately orders personnel to ignore a Supreme Court ruling, the Democrats should impeach.
The articles of impeachment, at this stage, would be very, very long---and controversial even among Democrats. (And, worse, we're still at the stage in which a Senate acquittal that would strengthen Trump is inevitable.)

How about a nice clean targeted Motion to Censure, with language that explicitly states that the Executive has attempted to violate the Constitution by ordering officers of the government to ignore a Supreme Court ruling?

Force Republicans on the record on this matter: are they fine with this particular violation of the Constitution? If so, they must stand up in public and say so.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:30 PM
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I'm generally opposed to impeachment when we're talking about his other "crimes," but if he crosses that line and defies a court order, I don't think Democrats have a choice. I mean, they obviously do have a choice, but it would be a bad idea to let that go unchallenged without the stiffest of possible challenges. Allowing the president to ignore Court rulings is something the House has to stand against. I'm not saying they should impeach if he tries to challenge the law in court again, but if he sues screw the courts, then the House has to throw down the gauntlet.
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Old 07-06-2019, 06:36 PM
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The articles of impeachment, at this stage, would be very, very long---and controversial even among Democrats. (And, worse, we're still at the stage in which a Senate acquittal that would strengthen Trump is inevitable.)
Have a read through this article, and note how the numbers change after Articles of Impeachment went forward. Also note that Nixon's popularity among Republicans didn't begin to drop until after those articles.
Also, I still disagree that acquittal in the Senate will strengthen Trump. Perhaps it will in his base, the hardcore MAGAts, but others will see the naked partisanship of that acquital, just as they saw it in the very existence of the impeachment of Clinton. It may sway a few independents, it will excite the thrillseekers who like a good political show, and it will energize the progressives of the left.

Quote:
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How about a nice clean targeted Motion to Censure, with language that explicitly states that the Executive has attempted to violate the Constitution by ordering officers of the government to ignore a Supreme Court ruling?

Force Republicans on the record on this matter: are they fine with this particular violation of the Constitution? If so, they must stand up in public and say so.
Force Republicans to take a stand with yet another toothless gesture, or force them with Articles of Impeachment and then trial in the Senate?
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Old 07-06-2019, 09:55 PM
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Have a read through this article, and note how the numbers change after Articles of Impeachment went forward. Also note that Nixon's popularity among Republicans didn't begin to drop until after those articles.
Also, I still disagree that acquittal in the Senate will strengthen Trump. Perhaps it will in his base, the hardcore MAGAts, but others will see the naked partisanship of that acquital, just as they saw it in the very existence of the impeachment of Clinton. It may sway a few independents, it will excite the thrillseekers who like a good political show, and it will energize the progressives of the left.



Force Republicans to take a stand with yet another toothless gesture, or force them with Articles of Impeachment and then trial in the Senate?
Agreed.

I know people are probably perplexed at why I would so adamantly argue against impeachment before and reverse myself now, but this would be different. Presidents cheat on their taxes, cheat on their wives, cheat in business, cheat in politics, and do a lot of other shit ordinary people can't get away with -- accept that as one of the perks of that job. Just don't fuck up life for the average American and you're probably good. But the moment the president starts acting like a king, that's where Congress must draw the line - no exceptions. Impeaching the president to protect the Constitution's separation of powers is abso-fucking-lutely worth it.

It doesn't matter what Mitch McConnell's Senate votes it down or not -- force him to vote it down. Force Republicans to go on record and explain in a long and protracted, nationally-televised debate why the president can just ignore court rulings that he doesn't like. "So you're saying if Courts strike down gun control legislation, a democratic government has the option of ignoring it?" Sure, the MAGAbots would say "Heh! Heh! Y'all aint' gittin another democrat president, heh heh!" But I doubt independents would be down with that.

This would be also one way to unite the Democratic party. It would also push a lot of centrists away not only from the president but from the party that defends him. A lot of people don't friggin care about the Mueller investigation or Trump's taxes -- mainly because they don't necessarily understand it. But I think Trump acting like a king and not a president is something that a lot of people would get.

Irrespective of that, however, the fact that impeachment could fail isn't a reason not to impeach. Allowing a president to not only ignore a court ruling from the highest court in the land, but also to cast doubt on the census process itself is something Democrats simply cannot tolerate. If they go down, they have to go down swinging.
  #50  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:01 PM
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Looks like Barr and Trump are going to just ignore the Supreme Court ruling, issue an executive order putting the question on the census, and dare the American public to give a shit.

https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...tion-to-census
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