View Poll Results: If the primary were today with these options, who of each pair do you vote for?
Joe Biden over Elizabeth Warren 25 43.86%
Elizabeth Warren over Joe Biden 31 54.39%
- - - - - - - - - - 1 1.75%
Kamala Harris over Amy Klobuchar 39 68.42%
Amy Klobuchar over Kamala Harris 15 26.32%
- - - - - - - - - - 3 5.26%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 06-15-2019, 06:15 PM
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Democratic World Cup, Semi Finals


This is the semi finals of the single-elimination stage matches up for our Democratic Primary World Cup. Everyone is invited to vote in the poll. Feel free to add comments about why you chose one of these candidates over the other one.

I've combined these into one poll. Please vote for one candidate in each pair, or else you will effectively cancel your other vote.
  #2  
Old 06-15-2019, 07:19 PM
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Easy choices. Looking forward to a Warren-Harris final.
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:20 PM
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Warren is an economic nightmare never seen before in the US, but less likely to be involved so heavily in the wars like BushObamaTrump. She’ll get the nod over Biden.

Harris is too authoritarian and warmongering. Don’t know much about Klobuchar but Harris is by far the worst contestant in the primary.
  #4  
Old 06-15-2019, 08:24 PM
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Oh, yes, the horror of stopping people from stealing. Though you're right that it's never before been seen in the US, only in those countries that're doing a lot better than us.

I like Warren better than Biden, but I'm still not convinced about her electability. And Harris is doing a much better job of making a name for herself than Klobuchar, so I'm betting that she'll do better in the general, too.
  #5  
Old 06-15-2019, 08:33 PM
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Not even a contest. Easily two of my most preferred potential presidents, Biden and Klobuchar, against opponents that I either don't care for (Harris) or actively don't want to be President (Warren).
  #6  
Old 06-15-2019, 09:34 PM
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Oh, yes, the horror of stopping people from stealing. Though you're right that it's never before been seen in the US, only in those countries that're doing a lot better than us.

I like Warren better than Biden, but I'm still not convinced about her electability. And Harris is doing a much better job of making a name for herself than Klobuchar, so I'm betting that she'll do better in the general, too.
Chronos' sentiments are same as mine. My heart said "Warren" but my finger clicked "Biden" for electability.
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Old 06-15-2019, 11:07 PM
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Biden is old and boring. I don't think old and boring brings people out to vote.
  #8  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:19 PM
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Seems nice....

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019...-temper-rumors
  #9  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:23 PM
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Hmmm, not a good sign.
  #10  
Old 06-16-2019, 12:08 AM
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That's from February 2019. Did something change since then? If not, that's baked into the numbers (on a national level, not this poll). I've seen people defend that behavior.
  #11  
Old 06-16-2019, 01:05 AM
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That's from February 2019. Did something change since then? If not, that's baked into the numbers (on a national level, not this poll). I've seen people defend that behavior.
Assuming that people actually research things before having an opinion...
  #12  
Old 06-16-2019, 07:30 AM
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Oh, yes, the horror of stopping people from stealing. Though you're right that it's never before been seen in the US, only in those countries that're doing a lot better than us.
Which countries are doing a lot better than “us”?

If that’s the best Warren can do to try to make her economic program seem sane, she will have some problems in the campaign.
  #13  
Old 06-16-2019, 08:10 AM
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Old news, as Heffalump and Roo pointed out.

Not what I'd regard as ideal boss behavior, but it's the sort of thing that when a man does it, nobody thinks it's a big deal. So I'm not going to give a nontrivial amount of weight to it.
  #14  
Old 06-16-2019, 08:12 AM
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Which countries are doing a lot better than “us”?
Most of Europe.
  #15  
Old 06-16-2019, 08:25 AM
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Old news, as Heffalump and Roo pointed out.

Not what I'd regard as ideal boss behavior, but it's the sort of thing that when a man does it, nobody thinks it's a big deal. So I'm not going to give a nontrivial amount of weight to it.
Yeah, the inherent sexism in that attack earlier this year was astonishing. A man gets labelled a 'strong leader' or 'stern but fair and goal-oriented'. A woman exhibiting the same traits gets somehow lessened by them.
  #16  
Old 06-16-2019, 08:28 AM
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WRT 'electability,' I think it's all backwards. Biden's fan club are largely older Democrats who will vote next November, regardless of who the nominee is (barring an outlandish choice like Tulsi Gabbard). The real question is, which potential nominee is likely to pull in Dem voters who are less certain to vote?

The lesson of 2018 is that if both sides massively turn out, our side is way bigger, and we win. The most electable candidate is the candidate that will help us realize a massive Dem turnout. And I don't see Biden being that candidate. He'll get all the (ETA: people Dems) like me who will show up on November 3 of next year, almost regardless of nominee, unless they're dead or lying comatose on a hospital bed. But that isn't enough.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 06-16-2019 at 08:30 AM.
  #17  
Old 06-16-2019, 08:47 AM
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Old news, as Heffalump and Roo pointed out.

Not what I'd regard as ideal boss behavior, but it's the sort of thing that when a man does it, nobody thinks it's a big deal. So I'm not going to give a nontrivial amount of weight to it.
We are discussing the Executive role. Being a bad manager is relatively disqualifying. The job of the President is to run things smoothly and effectively, not to spend 90% of his time playing political games or shouting the correct political message to your ears from the top of the White House dome.

I mean, certainly, that position I just stated is an exaggeration. Congress is a big committee and a committee is just a blob of useless goo without someone pushing it in some direction. But it isn't the majority of the job and, realistically, most of the political component is done by the Cabinet. The President's political might and political ability is also an important factor, but the day-to-day of it is the Cabinet and their immediate underlings.

A high turnover of the Cabinet is destabilizing of the government. It reduces consistency of mission from month to month, and just as people are getting oriented the right way, the rug gets pulled out from under them. A Cabinet that is full of people who are unhappy with their work and stressed out by an insane boss do poor work.

Ultimately, someone has to run the government. So regardless of whether you think it's mostly politics at the Presidential end and running things at the Cabinet end, or vice versa, the "running things" component is always going to be in a worse state when the boss just isn't a very effective leader.

And that's neither boy nor girl thing, it's a matter of what are the actual hiring criteria and who actually matches that criteria. This is an interview process for a job, not a popularity contest. If Klobuchar can't even run a couple of aides, without making it into a farce, I don't see greatness for her as the leader of the Free World.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 06-16-2019 at 08:49 AM.
  #18  
Old 06-16-2019, 09:01 AM
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It's one of those neverending debates -

1) Try to find a candidate who will get the less engaged and less likely to vote of your tent, young and Hispanic voters on the Dem side mostly (with the related but very different bit of maximizing a group that does come out but came out special for Obama, Black voters) - or -

2) Try to find one who gets the voters who actually vote but who swing (Romney-Clinton and more so Obama-Trump voters?

And narrowing the question to electoral efficiency, specific to in the key states that swing a close election, that allowed Trump to eke out an electoral win despite a 2 point popular vote loss, PA, MI, WI. Which is more likely to be the key issue in those states? Winning by a bigger margin in NY or CA doesn't really matter; losing by less in TN doesn't matter. Winning by even a hair in those states matters lots.
  #19  
Old 06-16-2019, 09:52 AM
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Most of Europe.
What are the net migration statistics between the US and the countries in Europe you didn’t name?
  #20  
Old 06-16-2019, 11:50 AM
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Best estimates here. https://medium.com/-issues/why-are-a...g-75fe530ce49d

Numbers hard to be too sure about though. But net emigration is increasing even if still outpaced by immigration.
  #21  
Old 06-16-2019, 12:04 PM
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Chronos' sentiments are same as mine. My heart said "Warren" but my finger clicked "Biden" for electability.
This is why I'm leaning toward rooting for a Biden-Warren ticket. Biden clicks all the emotional buttons and blue collar cred, Warren clicks the wonkishness and progressive cred. He doesn't need an African-American candidate, as he's strong with that population already. He need a woman and a progressive and someone who can excite the far left. To me, that's Warren. I also like the fact that they've publicly clashed on policy in the past. That shows he's not scared to be challenged and pushed by the people he puts around him.
  #22  
Old 06-16-2019, 12:27 PM
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Not what I'd regard as ideal boss behavior, but it's the sort of thing that when a man does it, nobody thinks it's a big deal.
I'm afraid I have to call bullshit on this. I personally despise 'screamer bosses' of any gender( and every one I've ever run into has been male )and I rather suspect I'm not unique in that. Hell, I can't stand absurdly perfectionist, micromanaging bosses in general even if they aren't screamers.

Now I absolutely believe that some folks are being sexist in their opinions. Because there are absolutely people who respect and admire so-called "tough, strong" bosses if they're male, but consider them harpies if they are female. But I'm not one of those. I'm an equal opportunity loather of ALL "tough, strong" bosses - it's a shit way to manage people. I have no problem calling brilliant, but difficult boss Steve Jobs a shitty human being for being a difficult boss( over and beyond his other personal shortcomings ).

ETA: This isn't a disqualifying issue for me. Steve Jobs was brilliant. Maybe Klobuchar would be as well. But it sure doesn't incline me strongly towards her.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 06-16-2019 at 12:32 PM.
  #23  
Old 06-16-2019, 01:16 PM
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Best estimates here. https://medium.com/-issues/why-are-a...g-75fe530ce49d

Numbers hard to be too sure about though. But net emigration is increasing even if still outpaced by immigration.
"As can be seen, there are far, far more immigrants into the US than emigrants from the US."

Yeah pretty much enough said.
  #24  
Old 06-16-2019, 03:28 PM
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This is why I'm leaning toward rooting for a Biden-Warren ticket. Biden clicks all the emotional buttons and blue collar cred, Warren clicks the wonkishness and progressive cred. He doesn't need an African-American candidate, as he's strong with that population already. He need a woman and a progressive and someone who can excite the far left. To me, that's Warren. I also like the fact that they've publicly clashed on policy in the past. That shows he's not scared to be challenged and pushed by the people he puts around him.
I like this; I think I've endorsed Biden-Warren before.

Can't wait to see the Pence-Warren debates.
  #25  
Old 06-16-2019, 05:24 PM
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"As can be seen, there are far, far more immigrants into the US than emigrants from the US."

Yeah pretty much enough said.
Is it?

There is no question that America is still an economic powerhouse of the world and that net migration remains into the U.S. more than out. Still immigration has stayed pretty flat while emigration has increased significantly. Why? These are not, to borrow from Trump and with the Polanskis excepted, our rapists and murderers with just a few good people too. Expats tend to be a fairly more successful bunch. Why are there more of them in recent years? I don't know.

In any case I am not so sure that net migration and changes in it are really an ideal metric to judge RTFirefly's claim about many countries doing "better than us."

I'd personally judge by metrics like how severe wealth inequality is (we're up there), and by measures like the happiness index (despite being so relatively wealthy we are below countries like Germany, France, Italy, Israel, Austria, Australia, Sweden, Switzerland, Canada, let alone those Nordic ones). Maybe health measures too? For all we spend and our relative wealth, we are not tops of the list there either.

I do not support Warren, at least at this point (it could change), and do not consider myself expert on all of her ideas, but I am indeed understanding that many of the measures you are bemoaning are more common in countries that do better on those real and more direct quality measures than those that let various institutions do whatever they want as much as we do.

I do not feel that demonizing the wealthy or Wall Street is a responsible position, but I do feel that Warren's sense of appropriate oversight of the institutions would be more associated with improvement in those metrics than Biden's apparent sense is. Hers is the superior intellect and she understands the seriousness of the increasingly extreme wealth inequality within our nation while he gives no sense of doing so.

I just think she would be far far less assured of winning, let alone of helping with the heavy lift of flipping the Senate. And the best mind that loses both is like seatbelts that stayed under someone's tush: not of much value.
  #26  
Old 06-16-2019, 05:57 PM
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Why are there more of them in recent years? I don't know.
Anecdatum: we left because of gay rights (could not sponsor my partner to immigrate). That situation was rectified just a few years later, and we could have returned to the US at any time. We've STAYED away because of healthcare. We can afford to grow old in Canada, but whether we could do so in the US is a crapshoot. This country is very similar to the US, both pluses and minuses (though both tend to be much less extreme), but at the end of the day being able to see a doctor without a co-pay is the dealbreaker.

Most of the Americans I know abroad left for a job / partner's job, and stayed because once you have kids someplace, it's easier not to relocate internationally.
  #27  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:42 PM
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I took a long time to vote in this one.

Warren over Biden, that's easy. She's the probable party unifier, she's younger, she's even a woman.

But Kamala Harris vs. Amy Klobuchar? That one was hard for me. I think I've avoided actually thinking about putting those two head to head. Personally, I find Amy more appealing than I find Kamala, and I imagine a lot of white voters from interior states would agree. But I think Harris has made more of a conscious effort to swing left, and I appreciate that. I went with Harris.
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