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  #51  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:53 AM
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Personally, I very much favor Sanders' views. My sole criticism of Obama was that he was too moderate, and that he pissed away too many opportunities trying to negotiate w/ the Repubs, when they had no interest in negotiation.

I think some of Sanders' positions unrealistic or immediately unattainable, but I value having a leader who champions visionary, long range thinking. And if the Repubs are going to reflexively oppose anything a Dem proposes, well, might as well set up the goalposts at an extreme, rather than adopting a reasonable position and presuming the other side will compromise.

Not at all a fan of Bernie's age. I appreciate that he appeals to young people, but at age 58, I'd definitely like to see more folk under the age of 60 assume the roles of party leaders.

But I don't see Sanders as electable at all. Too many people are stupid enough that the Socialist label will scare them off. I doubt he'd attract moderate Dems, and I doubt there are many - if any - Repubs who would cross over.

I'm getting more and more resigned to another 4 years of Trump. The economy appears to be going great - which a great many folk will vote on. I think we need someone more charismatic and moderate to have any chance of defeating him. So, despite Biden's age - and my lack of enthusiasm for him - I'm becoming more resigned to his candidacy.

But I live in dependably blue IL. So my opinion really doesn't matter. The only question is how does a particular candidate appeal to OH/MI/WI/Penn - and maybe a couple of other states that are in play.

To tell the truth, there are simply too many candidates for me to really firm up my opinions. My preferences are for someone on the younger side, and/or non-white male. But I think it likely misogyny contributed to Hillary's loss. So I'll take another old white male Dem, over Trump. Just fear Biden is more electable than Bernie.
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  #52  
Old 06-17-2019, 11:54 AM
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Also I think the OP's post is part of the issue. The issue is framed by Bernie supporters that backing Sanders is the obvious default - so you have to say why you don't support him. The way the question is framed seems to indicate some sort of incredulousness that people may not back him.
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Old 06-17-2019, 11:56 AM
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  #54  
Old 06-17-2019, 12:05 PM
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I agree with most of Bernie's policies, and will certainly vote for him if he should become the Democratic nominee. But I have concerns about his extremism. I think he has trouble compromising, and accepting baby steps in the right direction. He is, IMHO the embodiment of Perfection is the enemy of the good - Voltaire. He shames those who support "mere" improvements, and his rhetorical style supports the polarization of our government.

I would love to see a revolution in our governmental policies and priorities, but it is necessary to have a President who is also capable of managing conflicting views. Someone who can work to repair our image with foreign governments would also be nice. I think Bernie has some of the same social ineptness that President Trump has. They both go overboard with harsh communication, they are just communicating different opinions. I have seen Bernie openly contemptuous of fellow politicians - that never leads to compromise.

We need someone with tact, intellect, and negotiation skills. To my mind, Warren fits the bill much better than Sanders.
  #55  
Old 06-17-2019, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Also I think the OP's post is part of the issue. The issue is framed by Bernie supporters that backing Sanders is the obvious default - so you have to say why you don't support him. The way the question is framed seems to indicate some sort of incredulousness that people may not back him.
While I agree with the reasons listed in this thread for "not supporting" Bernie, I do think the OP raises a fair question. "This guy has policies that should make him popular here, but he's not. Why is that?"

He's getting his answer.
  #56  
Old 06-17-2019, 12:28 PM
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Even though Iím the #1 Sanders hater on the SDMB, I guess Iím a bit late to the party. Iím still tired of debunking all the conspiracy theories in 2016. Every time Bernie, it was the fault of the DNC or someone else. Now, if Bernie wins a Saturday afternoon caucus over Easter weekend? That means he has proven he definitely needs to be the nominee. Losing a big state like the New York primary? ĎIt was rigged!í

Even from his earliest days in congress, Bernie got the reputation for not playing well with others. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5ca6d3e7848a

You canít piss off those who are your likely allies. Hell, even Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is making gestures to work with Ted Cruz!
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  #57  
Old 06-17-2019, 01:19 PM
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He's been consistent on nearly every position he's held since entering office ...
In the post you first quoted me.

I'm curious, Barack Obama: Are you aware that nothing you wrote in that long post had anything whatsoever to do with refuting any point I made in my post that you quoted?
  #58  
Old 06-17-2019, 01:30 PM
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If Bernie gets the nomination, he is going to have to spend too much time explaining the difference between democratic socialism and socialism, and nobody who isn't a yellow dog Democrat is going to be listening after the second sentence. Decades in the Senate, and not even one bill that establishes any of the massive reforms and re-orgs he says he wants. LBJ was a powerful President, because he was used to getting legislation passed. Bernie - isn't.

Plus, he's Jewish. Blacks are not going to turn out for him. And not that they will vote Trump instead - they won't vote.

If it's Trump vs. Sanders, Trump will be re-elected.

I don't think he will get the nomination, and the BernieBros will complain about it just as much this time too.

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  #59  
Old 06-17-2019, 02:57 PM
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The question itself though is odd. The question in politics is not why not support, but why to support, why is this person the best possible of the choices we have.
This. We've got plenty of alternatives. Why him?
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Barack Obama why do you prefer him over Warren?
Good question, given (a) their being pretty close ideologically, (b) Warren's more productive track record, despite a much more recent entry into politics, and (c) Warren's much more substantive policy proposals.
  #60  
Old 06-17-2019, 03:06 PM
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Also I think the OP's post is part of the issue. The issue is framed by Bernie supporters that backing Sanders is the obvious default - so you have to say why you don't support him. The way the question is framed seems to indicate some sort of incredulousness that people may not back him.
Additionally, by now they've been told the myriad reasons umpteen times over. If they still don't understand or accept them, the umpteenth-and-one attempt isn't going to get through either.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:07 PM
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Of course I will vote for him. However, I feel that his support for Hillary was sufficient lukewarm that it led directly to the current situation and that the so-called progressives have forfeited any right to calling policy.

From what I have read, he was brilliantly effective as mayor of Burlington and was able to work well with the business community there. But that is a long way from working well with the current crop of deplorables that is the Republican party. So I don't think his election would change much. He would in fact, have to govern by executive order which has been the case for a couple decades. Just as agent orange reversed nearly everything Obama did any elected Dem would reverse everything Trump has done.

That said, I oppose his candidacy because he is unelectable. Two thousand years ago they crucified a Jewish socialist and not much has changed since them. They would emphasize the socialism, but the other would be in the background for vicious dog whistles ("cosmopolitan" maybe). If the Dems nominated W, I would still vote against Trump, little as I like W.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:20 PM
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Quoth ISiddiqui:

I agree with this and find it interesting that a lot of these Sanders supporters tend to either completely ignore or blow up minor differences with Elizabeth Warren. I think they know that Warren has accomplished a good deal more and has detailed policy proposals for her positions while being (at least) 80% as progressive as Sanders.

She is a progressive. She's gotten things done in the Senate - a good reason is that she is able to work in the party in a way Sanders is not. So why would I back Sanders when I can back Warren instead?

Of course I was a huge Hillary Clinton supporter in 2008 and 2016, so I doubt Sanders supporters will listen to me anyways.
For what it's worth, I would be equally happy with either Sanders or Warren as President, and will make any decision I might make between them based on their relative electability. Or, of course, depending on the data, I may well vote for some third candidate over both of them, who I like less, if that third candidate show evidence of being more electable, because beating Trump is more important than getting the best possible Democrat. As of right now, Sanders appears to be more electable than Warren, and so I'm supporting him over her, but that might change.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:24 PM
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Because Buttigieg sounds a lot more presidential to me. I like Bernie's ideas but he appeals to the fringe, not the mainstream. He has been an activist all his life, and that's great, but that isn't what we need as a president. I just can't envision him in the role. He's an old intransigent curmudgeon, not a president.

Come to think of it, isn't that what people really mean when they talk about "electability"? Picturing that person in the Oval Office? It's one big reason why Warren and Harris are going to have an uphill battle -- the majority of Americans can't visualize a woman president. Stupid maybe but I think it is true.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:43 PM
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...

Come to think of it, isn't that what people really mean when they talk about "electability"? Picturing that person in the Oval Office? It's one big reason why Warren and Harris are going to have an uphill battle -- the majority of Americans can't visualize a woman president. Stupid maybe but I think it is true.
I'm not sure. It isn't that a MAJORITY of folk can't visualize a woman pres, but that a sufficient amount are unable to to prevent them fro winning the office.

Really sad to think that a majority of folk really saw Trump as the most "presidential." Instead, I believe a significant portion of his winning margin came from folk who would never vote Dem, or who would never vote for a woman. Not to say there were no reasons to dislike Hillary, but I cannot imagine how any sentient multi-celled creature could better imagine Trump in the oval, unless they were viewing Presidential politics as reality TV, or desiring of pissing off specific groups.
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Old 06-17-2019, 03:48 PM
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I'm not sure. It isn't that a MAJORITY of folk can't visualize a woman pres, but that a sufficient amount are unable to to prevent them fro winning the office.

Really sad to think that a majority of folk really saw Trump as the most "presidential." Instead, I believe a significant portion of his winning margin came from folk who would never vote Dem, or who would never vote for a woman. Not to say there were no reasons to dislike Hillary, but I cannot imagine how any sentient multi-celled creature could better imagine Trump in the oval, unless they were viewing Presidential politics as reality TV, or desiring of pissing off specific groups.
They didn't, in fact. Clinton won the popular vote.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:05 PM
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I supported Sanders last time around in the primary because I agreed with his policy positions. I will not support him in the primary this time because I believe that he lacks the ability to beat Trump. If he were to win the Democratic nomination I would absolutely vote for him in the general, which I believe distinguishes me from your typical Sanders supporter. I don't believe that Sanders supporters will be on board with a Democratic nominee that isn't Sanders, and I hope that number is small enough to not tip the general in Trump's electoral favor.
On the contrary I believe Bernie Sanders has the best chance to beat trump because he actually proposes new ideas that other candidates are riding along with. In 2016 I believe Bernie Sanders would have beaten trump. The trump voters who voted trump for economic reasons such as fear of losing SS, healthcare, jobs, will vote Bernie once they hear his proposals. And I think it's undeniable that Sanders has the strongest youth base, he does better with younger voters than any other candidate. I think in 2020 we'll see a lot more support from the black and latino communities, as well as higher voter turnout as we saw in the mid terms. Bernie and Trump have both sparked interest in politics, whens the last time a bunch of kids were telling their friends about domestic policy and a white haired old guy? I sure as hell never that much or in depth of an interest in politics until 2016.

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My sole negative with Sanders is his age. I think the US has done better as a whole when the age of the President trended younger, despite party affiliation.
Biden and Trump are around the same age. Most older people tend to be more conservative, hence why you see older presidents not being as good as younger presidents like JFK.


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I think Bernie is a little more of a pragmatist than moderates give him credit for, and...I think Biden is more of a progressive than Bernistas give him credit for. Biden is a lifelong centrist, but he has shown the ability to evolve and change.

I know consistency is attractive to people, but having the ability to shift politically and flip flopping are often good things, IMO, not bad. I'd rather have someone who is open to questioning his own beliefs from to time to time. I'd also rather have someone in office who can evaluate his/her situation and understand when he has the power to get something accomplished in its original form, and when he needs to compromise.

One of the reasons why we have the ACA now is that Obama had the ability to do this, and while ACA isn't perhaps as great as it could have been, it's absolutely been a god-send for those who couldn't previously get insurance. Had Obama insisted on a public option in 2009, we wouldn't have had ACA. The Republicans still would have found something to campaign on, would have taken over the congress, and we'd still be without it today. Instead, we have a piece of progressive legislation, however imperfect it might be, that millions of voters have used and insist on keeping, and will threaten to vote against Republicans if they take it away.

I used to believe that Bernie was a curmudgeon, but the more I've read about him, the more convinced I am that he's not just an activist but also a good, pragmatic legislator. Even so, I think some of his ideas, like UHC and free college, are just not going to sell well in certain parts of the country - that's one problem. I'm also less confident that Bernie is prepared for managing American foreign policy. He hardly ever talked about it in 2016, yet he wanted everyone to take him seriously as a presidential candidate, which struck me as odd to say the least.
Most democratic candidates are running on UHC.

Video of a centrist dismissing M4A and getting boo'd lmao

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...sot-nr-vpx.cnn



some poll

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/ar...ed_140327.html

https://www.kff.org/slideshow/public...care-coverage/

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/29/polit...ing/index.html



I think the main issue with UHC is most people don't understand the healthcare system or other healthcare systems enough to have an educated opinion. However the more information people get, the more bernie talks about it, the more people support it. I think you'd have to be extremely naive to run against establishing a national healthcare system in 2020, and when the debates roll around I bet you Biden will be tanking in the polls while Bernie skyrockets.
  #67  
Old 06-17-2019, 04:14 PM
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I'd vote for a pet rock over Trump in the general, but I don't think he's our best bet to beat that asshole.

UHC? Great. How?
Free college? Great. How? It also concerns me that the quality of a higher education might go down. Let's start with supplementing trade school tuition and see how that goes.

And it was years ago, but I read in the Rolling Stone that Bernie wants to get rid of inheritance. The monies you have when you die get reverted (or taxed in such a way) that the government ends up with most if not all of it. I suppose that would help pay for UHC, or college, but just doesn't seem quite right.
His SS expansion bill for example, says that it'll start taxing people again after the $250k earnings mark on capital gains and dividends as well. You right now are only taxed up to $130k. It also measures the cost of things differently by switching from CPI-W to CPI-E. And it combines the OASI and DI so you dont have politicians pulling money out from disabled people to give to retirees or vice versa.

As for his M4A bill theres like dozens of proposals hes made for it and I've heard. Personally I really would like to see gains and dividends taxed as income, and I'd like to see a lower income tax rate on people making less than 6 figures.

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/downl...ll?inline=file
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:20 PM
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I'm not sure. It isn't that a MAJORITY of folk can't visualize a woman pres, but that a sufficient amount are unable to to prevent them fro winning the office.

Really sad to think that a majority of folk really saw Trump as the most "presidential." Instead, I believe a significant portion of his winning margin came from folk who would never vote Dem, or who would never vote for a woman. Not to say there were no reasons to dislike Hillary, but I cannot imagine how any sentient multi-celled creature could better imagine Trump in the oval, unless they were viewing Presidential politics as reality TV, or desiring of pissing off specific groups.
I think being a women has a lot less to do with it than most people think. Same with being black. I think Obama for example got elected because he proposed changes that regular Americans thought would be better for them. Such as the ACA.

Trump voters, excluding the delusional trolls, and racists, are mostly people who wanted change as well. However they're inside of their own bubbles, so anything a traditional democrat proposes especially someone like Hillary they're going to totally dismiss. Let's take coal miners for example, Hillary proposed shifting these peoples jobs to renewable sector, insuring they wont lose their jobs when coal mines shut down. Trump said he would keep the mines open, so being a little naive, with a mix of tribalism, and a healthy dose of skepticism towards people corporatists, coal miners voted trump.
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:48 PM
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https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default/...9-06-17-v2.pdf
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Old 06-17-2019, 04:54 PM
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On the contrary I believe Bernie Sanders has the best chance to beat trump because he actually proposes new ideas that other candidates are riding along with. In 2016 I believe Bernie Sanders would have beaten trump. ....
As you are a Sanders supporter let me ask you: Are you going to support the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is?
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:17 PM
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As you are a Sanders supporter let me ask you: Are you going to support the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is?
Personally I will (wont vote for Biden, Harris, Yang or some lesser known ones like Pete.), but as a Sanders supporter let's say no. And that should scare you, especially if you're a centrist democratic in washington. That should terrify you, and it's the truth.

By you, I'm speaking more generally, but if you want Bernie Bros to vote Harris, Booker, Biden, or even Warren, Tulsi, or Yang then you're going to have to be more detailed about what specifically you want to do on the same issues as Bernie.

Let's take Yang for example, he doesn't want to raise the minimum wage despite it being the same since 2009. He also doesn't want to support Medicare for all, nor does he propose an alternative or anything substance based. There are some pros to his UBI proposal, however until he lays out a bill or something specific with substance then I can't be certain he wont pull some of the cons, such as phasing out peoples aid in place of UBI.

I dislike bookers voting history on things that affect the pharma companies, I also dislike his campaigns being funded by pharma companies indicating a conflict of interest in my opinion. I dislike Harris her past records when prosecuting families for truancy for example. I dislike Biden for basically everything (I've met him a few times, I like him personally but not politically).

Warren and Tulsi I'm on the fences about. I can see myself voting for them, but I would always pick Bernie over them. Let's say Bernie wasn't in the race, I would immediately gravitate towards Warren, or tulsi.

Also worth noting I don't trust anyone else with proposing the things Bernie has. I'm fairly certain most Bernie Bros feel the same way, unless ur going to actually propose a SS expansion bill or healthcare bill like Sanders, then you aren't getting my vote. Also if Ro khanna was running I would certainly vote for him over warren.

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Old 06-17-2019, 05:24 PM
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Personally I will (wont vote for Biden, Harris, Yang or some lesser known ones like Pete.), ...
So you'll vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is, unless it's Biden, Harris, Yang or Pete. Cool. This is why Sanders and his supporters can go ahead and run on a third party ticket and forget about the Democrat charade. I know what you're thinking. But if Sanders runs as an independent he'll find out how little support he actually has.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:32 PM
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On the contrary I believe Bernie Sanders has the best chance to beat trump because he actually proposes new ideas that other candidates are riding along with.
To me, this sounds like people should only buy iPhones in 2019 because Apple has the great idea in 2006.

Again, all the candidates Iíve looked at with only a couple exceptions are basically all different flavors of the same ice cream store. Youíre making out Bernie like heís a Baked Alaska when to me heís merely pistachio.



Quote:
Biden and Trump are around the same age. Most older people tend to be more conservative, hence why you see older presidents not being as good as younger presidents like JFK.
While noting that Bernie is four years older, do you look back at what you wrote here and think, ďHells yeah, I made a really good point there!Ē Like, something worth other people thinking about?



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I think you'd have to be extremely naive to run against establishing a national healthcare system in 2020, and when the debates roll around I bet you Biden will be tanking in the polls while Bernie skyrockets.
Define your terms a little more clearly and Iíll bet you $50 that youíre wrong.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:32 PM
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So you'll vote for the Democratic nominee, no matter who it is, unless it's Biden, Harris, Yang or Pete. Cool. This is why Sanders and his supporters can go ahead and run on a third party ticket and forget about the Democrat charade. I know what you're thinking. But if Sanders runs as an independent he'll find out how little support he actually has.
Heres my stance on the issue. There is no viable leftist party in the United States. Democrats for the most part, are just as bad as Republicans. See this is the issue when you run a supposedly leftist party. The left, opposes power. So of course you're going to see more in party fighting, and competition of ideologies, because we oppose power. The Democratic party has only 2 choices, you either move left, or you die in the middle of the road trying to play ball with both sides. The reason why trump is president right now is because a bunch of 35+ year old men think trying to concede to the right is how you get policy and legislation passed. Then you know what happens? You end up with the ACA, and we all know how badly that backfired. Even though it was middle ground, republicans absolutely shitted on Obama for it, and for good reason too.

Sanders runs as an independent his whole life, and he's one of the strongest candidates for office in the US. When it comes to the presidential race, Sanders runs as a democrat so he can be on those debate stages and appeal to more people, the democratic party is simply a platform for sanders to express his views hes been expressing since day one. I find it absurd there are regular normal people who actually agree with centrist politics, who think they can find a middle ground on every issue, and think the status quo is great. The bottom line is democrats tried putting a centrist against trump, she lost. Now tell me this, do you think putting Biden against trump stands a better chance than Hillary? Do you think Biden could have won 2016? Why?
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:36 PM
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While noting that Bernie is four years older, do you look back at what you wrote here and think, ďHells yeah, I made a really good point there!Ē Like, something worth other people thinking about?
What do you think the cons of being old are on policy decisions? I think the cons are that old people are more moderate, or conservative. They want things to stay the way they are. Bernie opposes this in everyway, so the cons of being old do not affect his policy. On the contrary he proposes new things that spark interest, such as M4A, college free tuition, etc.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:37 PM
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I'd vote for a pet rock over Trump in the general, but I don't think he's our best bet to beat that asshole.

UHC? Great. How?
Free college? Great. How? It also concerns me that the quality of a higher education might go down. Let's start with supplementing trade school tuition and see how that goes.
Massive tax cut for the super-rich? Great. How?
New massive war with Iran? Great. How?

AOC is right - we never ask these questions about the insanely expensive policy proposals of the right. If they're feeling generous, they may throw out some bullshit numbers claiming that the giant tax cut will pay for itself, but the answer is always "we don't care, just get it done".

UHC and free college are like that, except they're actually good, valuable things that make life better for people who aren't, respectively, the ultra-rich and the ultra-rich who own stock in Lockheed Martin. Why can't we just pretend it'll pay for itself, and when the bill comes in, say, "Sorry, we have to cut down the military to pay for these things we need"?
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:37 PM
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In 2016 Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump. This time, I'm not sure. Thanks for helping me to decide what I thought about Sanders.
(And by the way, on the slim offchance that Sanders gets the Dem nomination, he's got my vote.)

Last edited by bobot; 06-17-2019 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:39 PM
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In 2016 Biden would have mopped the floor with Trump. This time, I'm not sure. Thanks for helping me to decide what I thought about Sanders.
Guess you don't have any reasoning for that.
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Old 06-17-2019, 05:43 PM
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Massive tax cut for the super-rich? Great. How?
New massive war with Iran? Great. How?

AOC is right - we never ask these questions about the insanely expensive policy proposals of the right. If they're feeling generous, they may throw out some bullshit numbers claiming that the giant tax cut will pay for itself, but the answer is always "we don't care, just get it done".

UHC and free college are like that, except they're actually good, valuable things that make life better for people who aren't, respectively, the ultra-rich and the ultra-rich who own stock in Lockheed Martin. Why can't we just pretend it'll pay for itself, and when the bill comes in, say, "Sorry, we have to cut down the military to pay for these things we need"?
Those F35s sure made my life a lot better. I really like paying the government to fuel the military industrial complex.

Last edited by Barack Obama; 06-17-2019 at 05:44 PM.
  #80  
Old 06-17-2019, 05:59 PM
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Personally I will (wont vote for Biden, Harris, Yang or some lesser known ones like Pete.), but as a Sanders supporter let's say no. And that should scare you, especially if you're a centrist democratic in washington. That should terrify you, and it's the truth.

By you, I'm speaking more generally, but if you want Bernie Bros to vote Harris, Booker, Biden, or even Warren, Tulsi, or Yang then you're going to have to be more detailed about what specifically you want to do on the same issues as Bernie. .... Also if Ro khanna was running I would certainly vote for him over warren.
Thus, you prefer trump to Biden, Harris, Yang or some lesser known ones like Pete.

That doesnt scare me, it's one more reason why I wont support Sanders.

Ro Khanna is a carperbagger who couldnt beat a GOP candidate if he tried.
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:08 PM
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That doesnt scare me, it's one more reason why I wont support Sanders.
Exactly. That doesn't terrify me, it just tells me that Sanders is the candidate of choice for people with enough privilege that they'd rather throw a snit than care what happens to minorities, LGBT, women, etc.

Which isn't much of a selling point.
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:28 PM
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Thus, you prefer trump to Biden, Harris, Yang or some lesser known ones like Pete.

That doesnt scare me, it's one more reason why I wont support Sanders.

Ro Khanna is a carperbagger who couldnt beat a GOP candidate if he tried.
I prefer not to vote for a candidate I do not support. I am not going to be morally responsible for their apprehensible actions. Whether you agree with it or not, thats how most "Bernie Bros" feel. IT also has nothing to do with Sanders, his strongest support is from people who hold principles and substance over identity politics, tribalism, and all around submissiveness towards the current system. His core base is a reflection of the things he says and does, hence why he is unbeatable in his home state.
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:31 PM
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Exactly. That doesn't terrify me, it just tells me that Sanders is the candidate of choice for people with enough privilege that they'd rather throw a snit than care what happens to minorities, LGBT, women, etc.

Which isn't much of a selling point.
I don't think it indicates a lack of care for marginalized people. I wont support someone who's going to possibly hurt those people, such as Biden by say reducing aid, or for proposing things against their interest. If you voted for Bill Clinton for example, then he turns around and repeals glass seagull, guess what in my eyes you're responsible for that. You voted for him, his actions are a reflect your vote. Just like anyone who voted Trump, but does not condone children dying in ICE custody. They are responsible, they staked their vote in our democracy on him, own up to it.
  #84  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:35 PM
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I prefer not to vote for a candidate I do not support. I am not going to be morally responsible for their apprehensible actions. Whether you agree with it or not, thats how most "Bernie Bros" feel. I...
If you dont vote for the Dem candidate, you are morally responsible for trumps reprehensible actions.

And the 2016 election made it clear that few Bernie voters feel that way. Nearly all voted for Clinton.Just a few trump supporters didnt.
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:42 PM
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... IT also has nothing to do with Sanders, his strongest support is from people who hold principles and substance over identity politics, tribalism, and all around submissiveness towards the current system....
But who require their candidate to run as a Democrat. Real idealists, ain't they?
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Old 06-17-2019, 06:49 PM
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You know, if someone cares more about satisfying moral rightness than about politically desirable results, I'm fine with them refusing to give anyone the vote. Unfortunately, one of the extant parties has been smashingly succesful at convincing a segment of the population that voting for them is a show of moral righteousness, whoever it is that runs even if that's Trump, and that segment does "lend" their votes.
  #87  
Old 06-17-2019, 07:58 PM
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Heres my stance on the issue. There is no viable leftist party in the United States. Democrats for the most part, are just as bad as Republicans.
You are wrong. This is a Trumpist talking point. By saying this, you are supporting Trump.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:08 PM
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You are wrong. This is a Trumpist talking point. By saying this, you are supporting Trump.
This is a ridiculous and absurd statement, and I believe you know it is too.

The democratic party in comparison to European leftist parties, is center right. Democrats in America would sooner turn a blind eye to the king then revolt. They are paid to lose, paid to concede, to republicans. Trump has by all means portrayed dems as "radical leftists", he's never once dared to bring up the fact most democrats are centrists.

By supporting centrist democrats, you are supporting right winged politics. You are supporting those who allow the republicans to tear apart this country. You can't vote for joe manchin then turn around and claim you're a leftist.


Also mind you, the dems voted in favor of patriot act, repeal glass seagull, crime bill, and to go to in iraq and afgan. Reagan would have never dreamed of doing half of what Bill Clinton did when it comes to deregulating the banks.

Last edited by Barack Obama; 06-17-2019 at 08:10 PM.
  #89  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:13 PM
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If you dont vote for the Dem candidate, you are morally responsible for trumps reprehensible actions.
I guess the jews are also responsible for Hitler's actions? Do you understand how absurd that is?
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:16 PM
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Barack Obama if you cannot see the difference between Trump's administration and your fairly centrist Democrat namesake's then there really isn't much point in engaging with you. The long term damage from SCOTUS picks under Trump alone is huge.

The position you express is way beyond ridiculous and absurd, even if you are so blinkered as to not know it.
  #91  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:32 PM
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Barack Obama if you cannot see the difference between Trump's administration and your fairly centrist Democrat namesake's then there really isn't much point in engaging with you. The long term damage from SCOTUS picks under Trump alone is huge.

The position you express is way beyond ridiculous and absurd, even if you are so blinkered as to not know it.
There is a big difference, but my point is centrists concede to trumps positions. However the notion democrats are leftists couldnt be further from the truth. If it were, then we'd have UHC by now. A centrist, is willing to do the bidding of a republican. A leftist, will fight tooth and nail with a republican. A centrist, will let republicans put whatever fucked up shit they want into a bill just so they can get some votes to get it through, a leftist stands their ground and refuses to add bullshit to their bill they're proposing.

I'm not calling for absolute discourse or increased tribalism. But i am calling for a real leftist party, with real leftist leaders. The democratic party USED to represent the average american, from the grass roots level. That has changed, they now represent corporate america. Luckily with the help of progressives that's changing, and Bernie specifically is pushing centrists to the left.
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Old 06-17-2019, 08:52 PM
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Two reasons:

---1---

No matter who gets elected, Trump, or a Democrat, the economy will crash in the next presidential term. The cards are stacked far worse than 2007 and the economy is likely already in a recession. It should be noted that the declaration of a recession is an after-the-fact matter, economic indicators trail present conditions.

Should this virtual inevitability come to pass, whomever is in office at the time will be blamed, and more pointedly, whatever ideology is in office at the time will be blamed. It really does not matter why the crash happens, the blame will go straight to the top. If a socialist is there, then "see, socialism = venezuela!" If a democrat is there then it's "See? Obama = crash. <Democrat> = crash!" If and only if the crash happens with a Republican in office will blame be finally placed where it is due.

I do not want to see a socialist like Bernie get elected only for all the crap that rampant corruption and greed has laid at the feet of the economy to be blamed on his beliefs when they are totally unrelated. The backlash against it would give us a Fascist potentially worse than Trump - like a competent, bona-fide gas-the-minorities Neo-Nazi in 2024. Economic devastation is the trigger for most fascist takeovers.

---2---

I do prefer Warren and have wanted a Warren/Sanders ticket since before the primary season for the last election. I was devastated when Warren said she wouldn't run. Sanders would make a fine president in better economic circumstances - beginning a term under a sword of Damocles is hardly ideal - but Warren's wonkishness is more likely to produce the kind of results Sanders advocates for. I believe she produces more effective policy, even if I believe in Sander's message and respect him for his steadfast objectives.

I note, however, that the VP does not have nearly as many responsibilities as the President, which would allow a VP Sanders to do exactly as he has promised - primary the living hell out of every last politician who sells out, stonewalls, or opposes the Progressive agenda.

I would rather see Warren/Sanders than Sanders/Etc.

---

And that's it (TLDR): I think that electing either will backfire because of the nuclear time bomb the corrupt croneys have generated, and I think Warren has better policy whereas Sanders would do better with the freedom to strike against political opposition as VP.

If it must be a democrat, let Biden/Croney-Centrism take the economic hit. His flailing attempts to save his masters in wallstreet would do well to stir up another OWS-like movement. He has no use to the progressive cause otherwise.
  #93  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:57 PM
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Bernie and Trump have both sparked interest in politics, whens the last time a bunch of kids were telling their friends about domestic policy and a white haired old guy? I sure as hell never that much or in depth of an interest in politics until 2016.
You obviously missed the never ending RONPAULRONPAULRONPAULRONPAULRONPAUL spam in 2008 and, to a lesser extent, 2012. So many similarities between the two.
  #94  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:00 PM
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Two reasons:

---1---

No matter who gets elected, Trump, or a Democrat, the economy will crash in the next presidential term. The cards are stacked far worse than 2007 and the economy is likely already in a recession. It should be noted that the declaration of a recession is an after-the-fact matter, economic indicators trail present conditions.

Should this virtual inevitability come to pass, whomever is in office at the time will be blamed, and more pointedly, whatever ideology is in office at the time will be blamed. It really does not matter why the crash happens, the blame will go straight to the top. If a socialist is there, then "see, socialism = venezuela!" If a democrat is there then it's "See? Obama = crash. <Democrat> = crash!" If and only if the crash happens with a Republican in office will blame be finally placed where it is due.

I do not want to see a socialist like Bernie get elected only for all the crap that rampant corruption and greed has laid at the feet of the economy to be blamed on his beliefs when they are totally unrelated. The backlash against it would give us a Fascist potentially worse than Trump - like a competent, bona-fide gas-the-minorities Neo-Nazi in 2024. Economic devastation is the trigger for most fascist takeovers.

---2---

I do prefer Warren and have wanted a Warren/Sanders ticket since before the primary season for the last election. I was devastated when Warren said she wouldn't run. Sanders would make a fine president in better economic circumstances - beginning a term under a sword of Damocles is hardly ideal - but Warren's wonkishness is more likely to produce the kind of results Sanders advocates for. I believe she produces more effective policy, even if I believe in Sander's message and respect him for his steadfast objectives.

I note, however, that the VP does not have nearly as many responsibilities as the President, which would allow a VP Sanders to do exactly as he has promised - primary the living hell out of every last politician who sells out, stonewalls, or opposes the Progressive agenda.

I would rather see Warren/Sanders than Sanders/Etc.

---

And that's it (TLDR): I think that electing either will backfire because of the nuclear time bomb the corrupt croneys have generated, and I think Warren has better policy whereas Sanders would do better with the freedom to strike against political opposition as VP.

If it must be a democrat, let Biden/Croney-Centrism take the economic hit. His flailing attempts to save his masters in wallstreet would do well to stir up another OWS-like movement. He has no use to the progressive cause otherwise.

1) Even if the worse was to happen and Bernie gets the worse end of the stick, I don't care and I'm sure he doesn't care. It's not about his reputation or what people may think. I believe if the very worse possible outcomes did occur, Bernie could lessen the burden we feel more than anyone else would. If theres anyone who could deal with that situation it's him, he seems to actually care about the country unlike some people.

2) Kinda a jab here, but Bernies been proposing the same shit he's proposing now when Warren was a registered republican. But none the less I agree.

Nah that seems short sighted and naive. I don't think we'll hit a recession after trump, I think we'll have a lot of negative effects to deal with, but it wont be as bad as 08. Returns aren't going to go negative.
  #95  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:04 PM
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Personally I will (wont vote for Biden, Harris, Yang or some lesser known ones like Pete.), but as a Sanders supporter let's say no. And that should scare you, especially if you're a centrist democratic in washington. That should terrify you, and it's the truth.
It does terrify me, because that's the reason we wound up with Donald Trump. And if you think Biden, Harris, Yang or Buttigieg is going to damage the things you believe in more than a Donald Trump 2nd term, then you're hopelessly misguided.

Quote:
Also worth noting I don't trust anyone else with proposing the things Bernie has. I'm fairly certain most Bernie Bros feel the same way, unless ur going to actually propose a SS expansion bill or healthcare bill like Sanders, then you aren't getting my vote. Also if Ro khanna was running I would certainly vote for him over warren.
And if a shiny pink unicorn were running, I'd prefer it over any of the current candidates. This election is not about catering to your personal whims, it's about stopping the United States from becoming even more of a nation neither you nor I want to live in.

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You end up with the ACA, and we all know how badly that backfired. Even though it was middle ground, republicans absolutely shitted on Obama for it, and for good reason too.
Both my daughter and my daughter in law were unable to find affordable health care before the ACA. My daughter was unable to find ANY health insurance before the ACA. Now they are both insured. Sure, their health care plans aren't perfect (I'm on Medicare, and neither is mine,) but they're a lot better than the NO health insurance they had before Obamacare. That Republicans have tried to repeal the ACA 55 times is all the more reason why I'll vote for ANY Democratic candidate before Donald trump.

Quote:
I find it absurd there are regular normal people who actually agree with centrist politics, who think they can find a middle ground on every issue, and think the status quo is great. The bottom line is democrats tried putting a centrist against trump, she lost. Now tell me this, do you think putting Biden against trump stands a better chance than Hillary? Do you think Biden could have won 2016? Why?
First off, I'm a regular, normal person who's a centrist and I find your attitude not only absurd, but incredibly patronizing. I don't think the status quo is great and I reject your excluded middle. And yes, I think Biden would have had a better chance against Trump because Hillary ran possibly the worst campaign of any major party candidate since Michael Dukakis in 1988. Biden had, and still has, more residual appeal in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania than Hillary, and would not have treated those states like flyover country while he was busy raising more money on the coasts.

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They are responsible, they staked their vote in our democracy on him, own up to it.
You are responsible for your opinions and your actions. Do us all a favor and walk away from the Democratic Party, which you obviously find distasteful, instead of corrupting it with your own purity.

Last edited by Kent Clark; 06-17-2019 at 09:04 PM.
  #96  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:13 PM
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Barack Obama if you cannot see the difference between Trump's administration and your fairly centrist Democrat namesake's then there really isn't much point in engaging with you. The long term damage from SCOTUS picks under Trump alone is huge.

The position you express is way beyond ridiculous and absurd, even if you are so blinkered as to not know it.
Supportive emphasis mine.

Also, I'm sick to death of naifs telling me I MUST vote for Bernie, or for nobody at all. It shows a complete unawareness of how working politics works. Then there is this sick and offensive gem which betrays a complete lack of understanding of politics in Germany in 1932 and 1933:

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I guess the jews are also responsible for Hitler's actions? Do you understand how absurd that is?
Do us a favor and learn a thing or two before you next speak.
  #97  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:26 PM
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It does terrify me, because that's the reason we wound up with Donald Trump. And if you think Biden, Harris, Yang or Buttigieg is going to damage the things you believe in more than a Donald Trump 2nd term, then you're hopelessly misguided.



And if a shiny pink unicorn were running, I'd prefer it over any of the current candidates. This election is not about catering to your personal whims, it's about stopping the United States from becoming even more of a nation neither you nor I want to live in.



Both my daughter and my daughter in law were unable to find affordable health care before the ACA. My daughter was unable to find ANY health insurance before the ACA. Now they are both insured. Sure, their health care plans aren't perfect (I'm on Medicare, and neither is mine,) but they're a lot better than the NO health insurance they had before Obamacare. That Republicans have tried to repeal the ACA 55 times is all the more reason why I'll vote for ANY Democratic candidate before Donald trump.



First off, I'm a regular, normal person who's a centrist and I find your attitude not only absurd, but incredibly patronizing. I don't think the status quo is great and I reject your excluded middle. And yes, I think Biden would have had a better chance against Trump because Hillary ran possibly the worst campaign of any major party candidate since Michael Dukakis in 1988. Biden had, and still has, more residual appeal in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania than Hillary, and would not have treated those states like flyover country while he was busy raising more money on the coasts.



You are responsible for your opinions and your actions. Do us all a favor and walk away from the Democratic Party, which you obviously find distasteful, instead of corrupting it with your own purity.
I don't think they would be worse, but I'm not going to vote for them. And thats not why trump won, trump won because the DNC pushed their personal favorite candidate despite the American people appearing to want Bernie instead. That's what happens when you force something down our throats, we refuse and say fuck you.

And nah I think I'll stay registered to vote dem, so I can change the party to represent the american people instead of corporations. Hopefully centrists in washington living in their bubble learned their lesson, if not we can do 4 more years of this until it gets through their heads Americans had enough of the status quo.
  #98  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:37 PM
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And thats not why trump won, trump won because the DNC pushed their personal favorite candidate despite the American people appearing to want Bernie instead. That's what happens when you force something down our throats, we refuse and say fuck you.
Ah yes, Bernie had the election stolen from him. Just like Donald Trump was claiming the election was stolen from him before he confused himself and won. Then, because he just KNEW someone was stealing something, he insisted the popular vote was stolen.

And what happens when YOU force something down MY throat? I'll vote for Bernie if it comes down to him vs. Trump. If you won't do the same for Biden et al, I'll see you in the Pit.
  #99  
Old 06-17-2019, 09:54 PM
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And what makes ANYONE think Bernie would not have been creamed in 2016? That socialist thing alone would've lost more votes than it gained. Barack, get out of your social bubble and talk to people, liberal, modeerate, and conservative, and LISTEN. Plus learn some history and work on a campaign or two. Get away from true believers like yourself.
  #100  
Old 06-17-2019, 10:14 PM
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He is a sexist who left his child and his child's mother on welfare because he couldn't be bothered to hold a real job, preferring to pursue his "journalism" Women journalist from New Hampshire HATE covering him - and many refuse to - because of his sexist behavior. During the last campaign season, pay inequity between male and female staffers was extreme.

He's a nutjob who published an opinion piece the the reason there is cancer is that teenage girls don't put out enough. Granted, long ago, but anyone who ever puts pen to paper to record that one of the problems with society is that underage girls don't have enough casual sex has disqualified themselves from office.

He's sponsored one substantive piece of legislation while in office.
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