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Old 06-19-2019, 07:15 AM
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What Effect Will Trump's Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign?


According to experts, the Trump administration is running concentration camps at the border. Numerous independent reports (example 1, example 2, example 3, example 4) including ones from DHS document the horrific condition that detainees[1] suffer, including being crammed into cages so tight that they cannot sit down for weeks on end, being forced into labor, being kept in wet clothes in dangerously cold conditions, being tortured with extended solitary confinement, and being denied life-saving medical care.

Now Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a sitting congresswoman, has made a statement on this:

Quote:
This administration has established concentration camps on the southern border of the United States for immigrants, where they are being brutalized with dehumanizing conditions and dying.

This is not hyperbole. It is the conclusion of expert analysis

https://t.co/2dWHxb7UuL
Previously, the issue was discussed mostly in terms of a few independent left-wing journalists such as Martin Garbus, but now it's making headlines in the mainstream news. CBS: "Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez: "The U.S. is running concentration camps on our southern border"; ABC: "Reps. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Liz Cheney spar over 'concentration camp' comment"; NBC: "ICE chief blasts Ocasio-Cortez for comparing migrant detention centers to 'concentration camps'".

AOC is pretty good at making the right play defense, and this case seems no different. Now that a sitting congresswoman, particularly one with a massive social media presence, has outright endorsed the claims of Andrea Pitzer (author of One Long Night: A Global History of Concentration Camps, seen here talking to MSNBC's Chris Hayes), the mainstream media can no longer ignore this.

The reaction from some on the right has, predictably, been to accuse AOC of antisemitism, call her crazy, insulting, and the usual things one might throw at a liberal woman making a "controversial" statement (although in this case the controversial statement is "quoting an expert in her field of expertise after personally visiting the camps to confirm that what she was hearing is true").

But this issue has now officially hit the mainstream, and I'm having trouble imagining how it could be anything but bad news for Trump, especially because this is a story that isn't going away any time soon[2]. The longer this goes, the more photographs we'll have like this one; the more children dead of preventable or treatable illness we'll have in the news, and the more news cycles will end up devoted to continuing demonstrations of Adam Serwer's point about the cruelty being the point. Meanwhile, the best defenses I've seen from the right involve complaining that "these concentration camps are not nearly as bad as the ones the nazis had", which, as far as moral defenses go, is kind of a non-starter. It may, however, be enough of a thought-stopper to get people rolling their eyes and not thinking about things.


The first main worry in my head is whether this will move the needle at all. We've already seen that Trump supporters are very often on-board with Trump's dehumanizing rhetoric[3]. I've seen the complaint "you're overreacting, it's nothing like the nazis" lodged on this forum.

The second is that people don't like to think about this, and the media may find that there's little interest in these stories. People would rather look away. God knows, following this story online has not been good for my blood pressure or my family relationships; as my signature indicates it's really hard for me to look past this in friends or family. If it turns out articles about this don't do great numbers, we're going to stop hearing about it in the mainstream media. It's going to fade into the background, and become "the new normal". This is not helped by ICE having a lot of wiggle room to turn away or impede journalists.


But, as said, I cannot picture this being a winner for Trump. Maybe that's somewhat pollyannish, but how do you make "my opposition is credibly accusing me of running concentration camps" work for you rather than against you[4]?

There's an apocryphal story, often attributed to LBJ, about a conversation between him and an aide. LBJ wants to paint his opponent as a pigfucker. His aide responds, "we can't prove that", and LBJ says, "I know that, I just want to hear him deny it".

Well, when it comes to ICE running concentration camps at the southern border, that's where we are. It's gotten widespread enough and gone mainstream enough that they feel the need to deny it. And once a claim like this goes this mainstream, when it's clear that it's not merely an insane conspiracy theory but that there are actually legs to it, there really is no configuration of words that can make "no, we're not actually running concentration camps" sound good. And actual, honest-to-god concentration camps? Feels about as close to red meat for the democratic base as we're likely to get.



-----------------------------

[1] Note: DHS maintains that these detainments are civil, not criminal, and that they are not meant to be punitive:

Quote:
Originally Posted by page 5
All ICE detainees are held in civil, not criminal, custody, which is not supposed to be punitive.
Whether you think this matters may depend on whether or not you think this distinction matters or should matter for illegal immigrants, migrants, and asylum-seekers.

[2] There is no plan to improve conditions (in fact, if you peruse the esquire article I linked at the start, you'll that situations have been consistently deteriorating and there's every reason to believe it will continue to get worse), no plan to shut down these camps, and the Trump administration has taken no steps to milden its rhetoric on immigrants, instead escalating in recent days by threatening to deport, quote, "millions".

[3] https://www.vox.com/2019/5/9/1853812...oting-migrants
“And don’t forget — we don’t let them and we can’t let them use weapons. We can’t,” Trump said. “Other countries do. We can’t. I would never do that. But how do you stop these people? You can’t. There’s—”

Before Trump could finish his thought, a woman in the audience yelled out. While it was unclear exactly what she said during television coverage of the event, numerous eyewitnesses reported she said, “Shoot them!”

Trump apparently found the suggestion amusing. He gestured at the person who yelled and said, “That’s only in the Panhandle, you can get away with that statement. Only in the Panhandle!”
[4] Okay I can think of two. The first is that the democrats stab her in the back. This is already being demanded on Fox News. The second is that the share of white fascists in the American Electorate is considerably higher than anyone thought. Both are not particularly likely, but both are possible and chilling.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-19-2019 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:28 AM
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Very little, to answer the thread title question, IMO. Those who find this kind of thing abominable already oppose Trump, and those that still support Trump are either okay with putting these folks in camps or refuse to believe it no matter the evidence.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-19-2019 at 07:29 AM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:32 AM
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What Effect Will Trump's Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign?

None.

Those that oppose him will continue to oppose him. Those for whom he can do no wrong will not see a problem.

Calling them concentration camps, which they are, going back to the British coining of the term in the Boer War, will only make his supporters, (and even some opponents), mock you because they are not Auschwitz.

Last edited by tomndebb; 06-19-2019 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Very little, to answer the thread title question, IMO. Those who find this kind of thing abominable already oppose Trump, and those that still support Trump are either okay with putting these folks in camps or refuse to believe it no matter the evidence.
Sadly, this.



Very classy OP, BTW.
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:57 AM
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Zero. Which of his base of 40% of voters do you think this will affect? His supporters here certainly won't change their minds.

Concentration camps seem to be the right term to me. No one is saying they are Nazi death camps. We've had concentration camps before in this country, the Japanese detention camps. Also, it's not like all was well and then suddenly Auschwitz -- as usual, the Onion gets it right:

https://www.theonion.com/holocaust-s...ted-1830685498

The problem is all the small steps that lead to disaster -- you don't get there overnight. That's why people of conscience resist the steps that lead there, rather than enabling those steps, McConnell-like.

This is probably my only post in this thread. My grandfather fled the Nazis; his family wouldn't leave and all died in camps. We had family friends with tattoos. So, this is a little emotional for me and I don't want to get into a fight with someone defending what we're doing on the border and get warned or banned.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:05 AM
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Zero. Which of his base of 40% of voters do you think this will affect? His supporters here certainly won't change their minds.
Oh, I'm not looking at them, I'm looking at the non-voters, particularly the 2012 dem voters who didn't make it out in 2016. I don't expect a significant portion of Trump's base to be moved by the plight of "illegals", but I'm seriously hoping it will shake a few people out of complacency, and serve as red meat for the democratic base to encourage more outreach and GOTV efforts.


Quote:
This is probably my only post in this thread. My grandfather fled the Nazis; his family wouldn't leave and all died in camps. We had family friends with tattoos. So, this is a little emotional for me and I don't want to get into a fight with someone defending what we're doing on the border and get warned or banned.
I respect the hell out of that, and I'm sorry to hear that.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:09 AM
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...Now Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a sitting congresswoman, has made a statement on this:
....
Republicans, help me out here, was that shrill?
I predict that the disgusting way these people are being treated will cause some people who voted for Trump for the lulz to reconsider doing so again. I can't say how many. I can't fathom how this will cause someone who didn't already support Trump to throw their support his way.

Last edited by bobot; 06-19-2019 at 08:11 AM. Reason: T
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:14 AM
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Their existence will not deter his core supporters. In fact, many if not most of them cheer their existence. I think his many sins will bring out many of the voters who chose to stay home in 2016, and I think the swing voters will abandon him as well. As I've said before, his first term is plenty time enough to show his true character, so everyone will know who and what they are voting for. The results of the 2020 elections will say volumes about the character of this nation.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:15 AM
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The Japanese internment camps were concentration camps but these really aren't even by the more expansive definitions in the first linked article.
Quote:
"Things can be concentration camps without being Dachau or Auschwitz. Concentration camps in general have always been designed—at the most basic level—to separate one group of people from another group. Usually, because the majority group, or the creators of the camp, deem the people they're putting in it to be dangerous or undesirable in some way."
One group isn't being separated out by the majority group. As bad as conditions may be, I find it pretty nauseating rhetoric to call them concentration camps.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:18 AM
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The Japanese internment camps were concentration camps but these really aren't even by the more expansive definitions in the first linked article.

One group isn't being separated out by the majority group. As bad as conditions may be, I find it pretty nauseating rhetoric to call them concentration camps.
Huh? Migrants are being separated from everyone else. That seems pretty clearly to meet that definition.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:23 AM
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Liz Cheney
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Please @AOC do us all a favor and spend just a few minutes learning some actual history. 6 million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust. You demean their memory and disgrace yourself with comments like this. https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/sta...46386042171392


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Retweeted Liz Cheney
Also @Liz_Cheney, the fact that you employed the horrifying word “exterminated” here (co-opting the language of the oppressor) tells us that it’s *you* that needs to brush up on your reading.

Hope you enjoy defending concentration camps. I won’t back down fighting against them.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:26 AM
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Huh? Migrants are being separated from everyone else. That seems pretty clearly to meet that definition.
Oh, you think "migrants" is a valid sub group for that definition of concentration camp? Wouldn't "criminal" also fit then, making every single prison a concentration camp? And it still doesn't fit the definition because migrants aren't being separated out, they are not being allowed in. If you can't see a vital distinction between imprisoning someone who is crossing the border with rounding up citizens of your country and putting them in camps, then I don't know what to say.

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Old 06-19-2019, 08:37 AM
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Oh, you think "migrants" is a valid sub group for that definition of concentration camp? Wouldn't "criminal" also fit then, making every single prison a concentration camp? And it still doesn't fit the definition because migrants aren't being separated out, they are not being allowed in. If you can't see a vital distinction between imprisoning someone who is crossing the border with rounding up citizens of your country and putting them in camps, then I don't know what to say.
Concentration camps don't require the inhabitants to be citizens of the country that builds the things. The Boers shoved into camps were not British citizens, and they were the majority, yet we call those places concentration camps.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:42 AM
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Oh, you think "migrants" is a valid sub group for that definition of concentration camp?
Yes, quite obviously. It would also fit "extermination camp" if these camps started exterminating them. They're being separated and "concentrated" in clearly substandard (from a human rights perspective) facilities.

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Wouldn't "criminal" also fit then, making every single prison a concentration camp?
If there weren't already a much more accurate word (prison), then yes.

Quote:
And it still doesn't fit the definition because migrants aren't being separated out, they are not being allowed in. If you can't see a vital distinction between imprisoning someone who is crossing the border with rounding up citizens of your country and putting them in camps, then I don't know what to say.
There's a distinction, but it's not about what to call the camps. They're not prisons -- these aren't convicted criminals who received due process. There's no better descriptor for them than concentration camps.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:47 AM
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Detention camps. The detainees are doing all the "concentration" work themselves by delivering themselves to the border.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:52 AM
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Oh, I thought they were rounded up, zip-tied maybe, kiss your kids goodbye, and brought to the camps. Just strolling in to them, are they?

Last edited by bobot; 06-19-2019 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:57 AM
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One group isn't being separated out by the majority group. As bad as conditions may be, I find it pretty nauseating rhetoric to call them concentration camps.
If you find it nauseating then I suggest you don't support people who put other people into concentration camps such as we have along our southern borders.

No one in my father's family who stayed in Europe past 1939 survived. We don't even know where their ashes are. Given how emotional this topic is for me I will also probably have limited posting in this thread, perhaps no more than this one.
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Old 06-19-2019, 08:59 AM
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If you find it nauseating then I suggest you don't support people who put other people into concentration camps such as we have along our southern borders.
.
They aren't concentration camps, as I explained, and I don't support Trump regardless.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:00 AM
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Detention camps. The detainees are doing all the "concentration" work themselves by delivering themselves to the border.
If one is inclined to try and frame things in the most positive way possible for the Trump administration, then perhaps. But if one cares more about being accurate and factual, then I think concentration camps is clearly much more accurate.

There's nothing illegal about going to the border, or requesting asylum, or the actions of many of these migrants. Many who were detained while or after crossing haven't been through due process and convicted of any crimes. Some of them might even be legal residents or citizens, with no access to lawyers to prove their legitimacy.

Concentration camps is a better descriptor for people, not convicted of any crimes, who are rounded up and locked into substandard facilities because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:01 AM
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My gut feeling is that, while it won’t make much difference among people who are going to vote anyway, it will probably encourage people who otherwise wouldn’t have voted to vote Democrat.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:09 AM
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Concentration camps is a better descriptor for people, not convicted of any crimes, who are rounded up and locked into substandard facilities because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
But they weren't just "at the wrong place at the wrong time". They deliberately, of their own free will, WENT to that place at that specific time.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:14 AM
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But they weren't just "at the wrong place at the wrong time". They deliberately, of their own free will, WENT to that place at that specific time.
So what? It's not illegal to go to the border, or request asylum. It's illegal to attempt to cross under certain circumstances, but illegal acts need to be proved in a court of law after due process, not assumed by the government because of where someone was found.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:17 AM
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If one is inclined to try and frame things in the most positive way possible for the Trump administration, then perhaps. But if one cares more about being accurate and factual, then I think concentration camps is clearly much more accurate.

There's nothing illegal about going to the border, or requesting asylum, or the actions of many of these migrants. Many who were detained while or after crossing haven't been through due process and convicted of any crimes. Some of them might even be legal residents or citizens, with no access to lawyers to prove their legitimacy.

Concentration camps is a better descriptor for people, not convicted of any crimes, who are rounded up and locked into substandard facilities because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I always saw "concentration camp" refer to camps where a minor group, already a part of the population, is separated out. Indeed, that is exactly what the expert in the article said. Arresting people crossing the border is just a different animal.

I am not defending Trump's policies here. I don't think people with legit refugee or immigration claims should be held in jails. But calling them concentration camps is an abuse of the term and I predict only going to be accepted by people already disposed to thinking Trump is the next Hitler
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:21 AM
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I agree that the idea of Trump as Hitler is an exaggeration. Trump lacks the dedication. He's making a big mess out of immigration because it pleases his base. But he doesn't really give a shit. When he's out of office he'll go back to hiring these guys to work at his resort.
But the lack of empathy he shows concerning these migrants is astonishing. He flippantly breaks up families, for keeps now. It's sick, but it ain't Hitler.

Last edited by bobot; 06-19-2019 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:22 AM
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"Concentration camp" only implies "the next Hitler" to the truly ignorant. The US used concentration camps to house Japanese-Americans, and the British used them in numerous circumstances. Hitler used them too, but Hitler's monstrosity is about the extermination camps far more than concentration camps.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:22 AM
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So what? It's not illegal to go to the border, or request asylum. It's illegal to attempt to cross under certain circumstances, but illegal acts need to be proved in a court of law after due process, not assumed by the government because of where someone was found.
I know that. But your definition of concentration camp includes people being in the "wrong place at the wrong time", which isn't really true, and thus your definition of "concentration camp" doesn't apply here.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:26 AM
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I know that. But your definition of concentration camp includes people being in the "wrong place at the wrong time", which isn't really true, and thus your definition of "concentration camp" doesn't apply here.
How are they not in the "wrong place at the wrong time"? Many of them did nothing wrong, and yet they're still treated like vermin. There shouldn't be any negative consequences to presenting one's self at the border to request asylum.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:27 AM
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"Concentration camp" only implies "the next Hitler" to the truly ignorant. The US used concentration camps to house Japanese-Americans, and the British used them in numerous circumstances. Hitler used them too, but Hitler's monstrosity is about the extermination camps far more than concentration camps.
I didn't say it implies that, I said that's whom the rhetoric will appeal to.

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Old 06-19-2019, 09:27 AM
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How are they not in the "wrong place at the wrong time"? Many of them did nothing wrong, and yet they're still treated like vermin. There shouldn't be any negative consequences to presenting one's self at the border to request asylum.
You and I must have different definitions of "being in the wrong place at the wrong time"
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:30 AM
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You and I must have different definitions of "being in the wrong place at the wrong time"
Perhaps. IMO, it means someone suffering due to circumstances other than that they did something wrong. Some of these folks had a choice akin to "almost certain death" or "try to apply for asylum at the US border". If those folks weren't "in the wrong place at the wrong time", then who is?
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:30 AM
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There shouldn't be any negative consequences to presenting one's self at the border to request asylum.
I agree. I'd be perfectly fine with "Thank you for requesting asylum. Here is your court date. Here is a list of the documents you may need. Here are the phone numbers of some lawyers who can help you. Come back to the US on this date."
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:48 AM
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For the sake of hygiene, I hope they're installing showers at these facilities.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:51 AM
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Very little, to answer the thread title question, IMO. Those who find this kind of thing abominable already oppose Trump, and those that still support Trump are either okay with putting these folks in camps or refuse to believe it no matter the evidence.
This (and other similar responses). The only question here is the turnout for whoever the Democratic candidate is in several key states. Otherwise Trump's votes have been locked in since he took office. They are a mix of the people who hate the reality of America and others who are like a spouse in a bad marriage who won't ever leave because they don't want to admit they were wrong.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:51 AM
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What Effect Will Trump's Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign?

It will energize Trump's base, and make more of them get out and vote for him.

The only thing that would make his base happier is if Trump authorized the national guard to shoot brown people on sight.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:54 AM
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They aren't concentration camps, as I explained, and I don't support Trump regardless.
I'm glad to hear you don't support Trump.

They're still concentration camps. A lot of "detention" or "refugee" camps qualify as such. A lot of people in a small space with inadequate facilities and limited options (if any) for going elsewhere.

The "detainees" are locked up. So far as I know, NONE of them are free to leave until the people with the keys say they can go.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:55 AM
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But they weren't just "at the wrong place at the wrong time". They deliberately, of their own free will, WENT to that place at that specific time.
You think the six year olds and toddlers really decided to cross an international border on their own?
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:57 AM
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They aren't concentration camps, as I explained, and I don't support Trump regardless.
Right. But no doubt you and your friends will be "forced" to vote for Trump, because his opponent will be so very, very terrible.
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:57 AM
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You think the six year olds and toddlers really decided to cross an international border on their own?
They were forced to do it? By some people other than their parents?
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:02 AM
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I'm sorry - are you not aware that young children, some as young as toddlers are being locked up in cages prison cells? Are you claiming that those children did this of their own free will rather than being taken across by adults?

We generally don't put young children in jail for the actions of adults. Unless they come from the south and speak Spanish as their first language. Or something else foreign, but right now is seems to be a major problem with folks from sough of the border.
  #40  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:05 AM
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Liz Cheney
Verified account @Liz_Cheney
Please @AOC do us all a favor and spend just a few minutes learning some actual history. 6 million Jews were exterminated in the Holocaust. You demean their memory and disgrace yourself with comments like this. https://twitter.com/realsaavedra/sta...46386042171392


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
‏Verified account @AOC
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Retweeted Liz Cheney
Also @Liz_Cheney, the fact that you employed the horrifying word “exterminated” here (co-opting the language of the oppressor) tells us that it’s *you* that needs to brush up on your reading.

Hope you enjoy defending concentration camps. I won’t back down fighting against them.
I don't know why people keep thinking they can get in twitter fights with AOC and win. It almost never goes well for them, and that's why I'm very glad she's the first democrat to make a statement on this. Here's hoping she's not the last.

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What Effect Will Trump's Concentration Camps have on his reelection campaign?

It will energize Trump's base, and make more of them get out and vote for him.

The only thing that would make his base happier is if Trump authorized the national guard to shoot brown people on sight.
Yikes. I mean, I have no faith in the American electorate, but this is just brutal.
  #41  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:05 AM
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I'm glad to hear you don't support Trump.

They're still concentration camps. A lot of "detention" or "refugee" camps qualify as such. A lot of people in a small space with inadequate facilities and limited options (if any) for going elsewhere.

The "detainees" are locked up. So far as I know, NONE of them are free to leave until the people with the keys say they can go.
Do you think the majority of Americans, or even the majority of Democrats, would be fine with everyone crossing the southern border being given a court date and then be allowed to wander the country until then? Maybe you and I think that's the right thing to do, but do you think attacking the very idea of immigration detention is a vote getter? If they were being held with 5 star accommodations, it would still be a concentration camp right? Because migrants are being concentrated!
  #42  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:14 AM
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I'm sorry - are you not aware that young children, some as young as toddlers are being locked up in cages prison cells? Are you claiming that those children did this of their own free will rather than being taken across by adults?
Yes, of course I'm aware. So? Children accompanying their parents are also not in "the wrong place at the wrong time". Which is my point.

Quote:
We generally don't put young children in jail for the actions of adults. Unless they come from the south and speak Spanish as their first language. Or something else foreign, but right now is seems to be a major problem with folks from sough of the border.
I agree. That's why my idea is better than detaining children in cages.
  #43  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:15 AM
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Yikes. I mean, I have no faith in the American electorate, but this is just brutal.
I had some faith in the American electorate before 2016. Now I have very little. The fact that ANYone still supports the Cheeto-faced Shitgibbon continually astounds me.

I honestly don't think your country will ever recover. I think this is the start of a long slide down.
  #44  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:25 AM
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Also, quick meta note.

I'd rather we not discuss whether or not we're actually running concentration camps at the borders. At least if you don't have at least some form of expertise (say, a historian, or a holocaust expert) to weigh in with. This thread is not about the "whether", it's about the "electoral impacts of", and while "this isn't a thing that will have an impact because it's not a thing" is a take one can have, I sincerely doubt that anyone involved is going to step the rhetoric down, especially as conditions in the camps continue to worsen and people keep on dying. Whether "concentration camp" is 100% accurate or not, now it's out in the mainstream, and it's very unlikely that that genie gets put back in the bottle.

(Besides, I tried to have that conversation before and it didn't go well. I do welcome anyone interested to make their own thread, and I'll gladly participate in it, but let's try to keep this thread on topics germane to elections, i.e. "what will this do to the polls".)

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-19-2019 at 10:27 AM.
  #45  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:28 AM
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Do you think the majority of Americans, or even the majority of Democrats, would be fine with everyone crossing the southern border being given a court date and then be allowed to wander the country until then?
I think the majority of Americans are blissfully unaware of just how much of their produce is picked by people crossing the border without permission, how much lawncare/landscaping/construction is done by people crossing the border without permission, how many hotels rooms/offices/buildings/homes are cleaned by people crossing the border without permission, how much childcare is provided by people crossing the border without permission.

We have ELEVEN MILLION people in the US without permission, they didn't all just arrive in the past month or two. They've been coming here for decades. The country has not imploded. CLEARLY no one really gave a damn about this until recently.

Well, OK, Ronald Reagan worked up an amnesty deal for a few million back 30+ years ago. See how well that worked?

So while a lot of Americans want to get butt hurt about this all of a sudden in actual fact they approve of it, and if the cost of food, lawnmowing, new homes, and nannies went up they'd scream bloody murder - because if there are no more illegal aliens to do these jobs for a pittance either they go undone or they'll have to pay Americans a higher wage to do it. So yes, the majority of Americans are in favor of illegally entering workers whether they realize it or not.

And until very recently YES, that's exactly what happened: people with a claim to asylum were given a court date and allowed to stay in the US until that point in time. Again, that has been the case for DECADES and the nation has not imploded.

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If they were being held with 5 star accommodations, it would still be a concentration camp right? Because migrants are being concentrated!
Nope. Because a "5-star accommodation" has things like adequate flush toilets/modern sanitation for the number of people being housed, children could stay with their parents, and a hell of a lot fewer walls made out of chain-link fencing. Oh, and things like actual bedsheets instead of mylar emergency blankets. And actual beds instead of the floor. They could piss or shit when they need to instead of asking/begging permission and hoping they get it before they piss and shit on themselves. They could get a shower when they want it instead of when someone deigns to grant it. There are chairs to sit on instead of concrete. And so on and so forth.
  #46  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:29 AM
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Yes, of course I'm aware. So? Children accompanying their parents are also not in "the wrong place at the wrong time". Which is my point.
I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

Because the parents did something wrong it's OK to separate families and lock up young children in cages? Is that what you're saying?
  #47  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:29 AM
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If that's the case, then this is the answer:

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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
Zero. Which of his base of 40% of voters do you think this will affect? His supporters here certainly won't change their minds.
  #48  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:30 AM
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Also, quick meta note.

I'd rather we not discuss whether or not we're actually running concentration camps at the borders. At least if you don't have at least some form of expertise (say, a historian, or a holocaust expert) to weigh in with. This thread is not about the "whether", it's about the "electoral impacts of", and while "this isn't a thing that will have an impact because it's not a thing" is a take one can have, I sincerely doubt that anyone involved is going to step the rhetoric down, especially as conditions in the camps continue to worsen and people keep on dying. Whether "concentration camp" is 100% accurate or not, now it's out in the mainstream, and it's very unlikely that that genie gets put back in the bottle.
I think calling them "concentration camps" is intended to have electoral consequences and you damn well know it. And I think it will backfire because I don't think Americans are against the concept of holding migrants at the border, they just don't want to see children in cages separated from their parents.

Last edited by CarnalK; 06-19-2019 at 10:31 AM.
  #49  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:33 AM
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I'm not sure what your point is exactly.

Because the parents did something wrong it's OK to separate families and lock up young children in cages? Is that what you're saying?
No, that's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that people (whether children or not) who come to a place to request asylum are not in "the wrong place at the wrong time" as per the definitions put forth by iiandyiiii, making his definition of concentration camp non-applicable to those asylum seekers.
  #50  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:41 AM
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So while a lot of Americans want to get butt hurt about this all of a sudden in actual fact they approve of it, and if the cost of food, lawnmowing, new homes, and nannies went up they'd scream bloody murder - because if there are no more illegal aliens to do these jobs for a pittance either they go undone or they'll have to pay Americans a higher wage to do it. So yes, the majority of Americans are in favor of illegally entering workers whether they realize it or not.
Out of curiosity: what the heck do you figure I’d have to do to clearly establish that, no, I’m not in favor of it and do not in actual fact approve of it?
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