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  #101  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:29 PM
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The effect on his campaign will mostly be positive.
Probably. People don't care about overcrowded prisons that contain actual Americans. They are definitely not going to care about overcrowded prisons that contain brown, poor, non-Americans.
  #102  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:42 PM
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Those were extermination camps (the worst ones, anyway). Or death camps. There is a difference, even WRT "what Hitler did":
We both know that there is a difference. I agree with your historical argument. However, there is no question that since 1945, when you say "concentration camp" the first thing anyone thinks of, me or you included, is the Nazi genocide camps.

We can bemoan the fact that most people aren't well versed in history, but it still remains that the meaning of the word has evolved. We might as well beat our heads against the wall and argue that the swastika does not mean Nazism as it had very positive meanings throughout history.

Things change (and it is somewhat amusing that a conservative would argue that to a liberal. )
  #103  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:44 PM
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We both know that there is a difference. I agree with your historical argument. However, there is no question that since 1945, when you say "concentration camp" the first thing anyone thinks of, me or you included, is the Nazi genocide camps.



We can bemoan the fact that most people aren't well versed in history, but it still remains that the meaning of the word has evolved. We might as well beat our heads against the wall and argue that the swastika does not mean Nazism as it had very positive meanings throughout history.



Things change (and it is somewhat amusing that a conservative would argue that to a liberal. )
If you agree that the migrant campus fit the historical definition of the phrase, then I'll consider that a big win.
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  #104  
Old 06-19-2019, 03:53 PM
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Oh hey, another addition to the "did not read the thread, the OP, or even the first article linked in the first sentence" club. Let's just not engage, eh? They're painfully wrong and it's very apparent from the very silly nature of the comparisons they're making. (Look, I know the Esquire article is long. But it's really important, and if you cannot be bothered to at least skim it, you really have no business telling me my premise is wrong.)

The idea that these are definitely not concentration camps because "concentration camps = nazis" is pretty silly, but let's assume for the moment that anyone claiming this has actually read the words of the (multiple) historians I've cited throughout this thread. That's another great reason why we should be concerned that historians, journalists, and human rights groups are calling this a "concentration camp"! They know that connotation as well as you or I. In fact, many of them very explicitly explain what they mean, and point out that this is the start of the camp system, not the end.

As said before: this thread is not about "are these concentration camps". This thread is about the increasing perception among experts and the growing media attention to the idea that these are concentration camps, and the effects this will have on Trump's reelection campaign. As said, if you think "this will die down because they're not concentration camps", I guess that's a take, but it's one I find super unrealistic for any number of reasons. And if you insist on taking that tack, could you find maybe one historian to back up your claims? Just one? Maybe?

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-19-2019 at 03:54 PM.
  #105  
Old 06-19-2019, 04:49 PM
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Probably. People don't care about overcrowded prisons that contain actual Americans. They are definitely not going to care about overcrowded prisons that contain brown, poor, non-Americans.
Sad to say, I mostly agree with this thinking.

However, if stories about these camps do reach a level of mainstream attention where they become a bona fide issue, Democrats need a genuine alternative plan beyond "let's not throw these people into camps" -- a plan that assures people illegal aliens won't be running amok in their communities while re-establishing some sanity around immigration and asylum processes.

Otherwise, we risk "Gosh, those camps are terrible" leading to "... but I guess the border must be a terrible problem if that's the only solution."
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  #106  
Old 06-19-2019, 05:32 PM
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Trump could've started with keeping families intact, which the WWII-era Federal Government managed to do when it detained people it (wrongly) considered mortal enemies. He. Did. Not.
I think this is what destroys the credibility of the administration and those who defend these internment camps. Deliberately separating small children from their parents manifests the administration's desire to traumatize the migrants. It colors all of the other details that have been described, such as sleeping on cold floors, having minimal food and water, or receiving sub-standard medical care. There are cities around the country that have already indicated they can take migrants in, and the administration won't have it. So I don't buy that these are anything other than internment camps. You don't get the benefit of the doubt when the first thing you do to people with nothing but the clothes on their back after a 1000 mile journey is to traumatize small children by snatching them from their parents, not to be seen for months, if ever again.
  #107  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:12 PM
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I think calling them "concentration camps" is intended to have electoral consequences and you damn well know it.
...as Budget points out: this isn't a narrative that most of the Dem politicians want to play out. They view it as politically risky. The politician who has spoken out got predictably attacked with all the expected talking points.

The intention isn't to have "electoral consequences." Although this may be one of the eventual results.

The intention is to let the American public know what is happening in the detention camps. Nothing that we have heard about in the last couple of days is new information. For anyone who has been paying attention we have known about this stuff for a while.

But Trump & Co have a near command over the news cycle. They know how to make a story linger in the news and they know how to kill one. They are a propaganda machine. Its why "her emails" effectively killed the Clinton campaign and why nobody cares that Kushner and Pence have done absolutely the same thing.

AOC is one of the few Dems who understands how to control and influence the news cycle. And she has used that power to push the narrative here. Because the reality is that these are, by any normal definition, concentration camps. There is nothing to be gained by pretending they are not. Because things are pretty fucking bad in the camps right now. But they are on track to get even fucking worse.

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And I think it will backfire because I don't think Americans are against the concept of holding migrants at the border, they just don't want to see children in cages separated from their parents.
I think a great many Americans were content to pretend that everything is fine at the detention camps. That the conditions in the camps are comparable to maybe a medium security prison. But that isn't the truth. I would hope that most Americans, even those that agree with the concept of "holding migrants at the border", will be shocked, aghast and disgusted to find out that in some cases 155 detainees are kept in a cell that was built for 35. If it takes labelling the camps (correctly) as concentration camps to bring this to people attention then it hasn't backfired at all.
  #108  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:00 PM
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Probably. People don't care about overcrowded prisons that contain actual Americans. They are definitely not going to care about overcrowded prisons that contain brown, poor, non-Americans.
An overcrowded prison in the US has, at absolute worst, around 150% operational capacity, and almost never more than 105% operational capacity. Nationwide, the average is slightly over 100%.

That's bad. Make no mistake, a prison being over capacity is never a good thing. A 150% operational capacity means that any given cell meant for 2 may have to fit 3, and the guardrisoner ratio goes from 1:9 to 1:13 or so. It's less safe.

That is not what we're dealing with here.

Here's a few pictures of conditions at one border camp. Not for "a few hours" or "a day", but for weeks.
  #109  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:18 PM
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An overcrowded prison in the US has, at absolute worst, around 150% operational capacity, and almost never more than 105% operational capacity. Nationwide, the average is slightly over 100%.

That's bad. Make no mistake, a prison being over capacity is never a good thing. A 150% operational capacity means that any given cell meant for 2 may have to fit 3, and the guardrisoner ratio goes from 1:9 to 1:13 or so. It's less safe.

That is not what we're dealing with here.

Here's a few pictures of conditions at one border camp. Not for "a few hours" or "a day", but for weeks.
I get it. But a lot of people don't care. What's so hard to understand about that? 60 million people don't care. And they are going to keep not caring when you tell them there are "concentration camps" at the border when they don't resemble the Nazi concentration camps that everyone knows. "But, but, but the Boer War!" is not going to convince anyone. Historians trying to say what "concentration camp" means in a historical sense are not going to convince anyone. The average American thinks of "concentration camp" as what happened in Nazi Germany. And that is NOT happening here.

I would almost guarantee that if you showed those horrible photos around America, there would be at LEAST 30 million people who would say "Well, they should have stayed in their own country!" And that's terrible.

Those are horrible conditions that anyone with any sense of compassion at all would know. But every day, I get a free newspaper in the Metro, published by the Washington Post (owned by Jeff Bezos). And I haven't seen a story in it about the conditions at the camps on the border for a while. Are you saying Trump and his cohorts are somehow preventing the Post from publishing how bad it is? Why aren't the traditional "liberal leaning" media outlets making this front page news every single day?
  #110  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:23 PM
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If it takes labelling the camps (correctly) as concentration camps to bring this to people attention then it hasn't backfired at all.
So if it works according to plan, it won't have backfired you say? Fascinating. How about if people just stop reading after yet again they see liberals crying about Trump=Hitler.
  #111  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:37 PM
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I get it. But a lot of people don't care.
Part of making them care is how we speak. When we talk about "overcrowding" and then turn around and say, "Well, American prisons are overcrowded too", the images we bring to mind are those of American prisons - bad, but nothing worth getting upset about. But that's not what's going on. These camps aren't overcrowded like the American prison system, they're overcrowded like... well, concentration camps, funnily enough.

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The average American thinks of "concentration camp" as what happened in Nazi Germany. And that is NOT happening here.
There's a one-word answer to this, an answer these historians keep screaming, that should send chills down everyone's spine.

"Yet."

Also, whoops, funny story, here's another historian (who specializes in the Holocaust, fancy that) calling 'em concentration camps, how did that happen. (Lest anyone click through and get confused: for the record, Nicholas Clairmont is not a historian.)
  #112  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:42 PM
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This thread is about the electoral ramifications of the "concentration camps" so what the majority of your fellow citizens think is rather the point, not your personal preference.
Practically everybody agreed right off the bat that it would have little if any effect, and it immediately veered into the debate that was going to happen somewhere here, over whether the use of 'concentration camps' was legit. And the opinions of my fellow citizens have nothing to do with the latter.

I highly recommend Josh Marshall's righteous rant about the 'concentration camp' debate. I think he hits the nail on the head with this:
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Many of us are tired of the GOP evangelical political alliance which frequently relegates us as Jews into dragooned mascots for bad faith right wing attacks and false grievance politics. Indeed our history, our collective ...
3/ tragedies and sorrow, our survival as a people becomes a cynical cudgel for political battles we often have nothing to do with and which are advanced by people who don’t share our values. Our story as a people, our history and survival gets prostituted and abused by ...
4/ bad people. So this isn’t just a matter of somehow putting our Jewishness to the side in favor of some other commitment. It’s very much a defense of our Jewishness, our being sickened by having our history used as a cheap cudgel, trying to turn us into mascots.
  #113  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:47 PM
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Part of making them care is how we speak. When we talk about "overcrowding" and then turn around and say, "Well, American prisons are overcrowded too", the images we bring to mind are those of American prisons - bad, but nothing worth getting upset about. But that's not what's going on. These camps aren't overcrowded like the American prison system, they're overcrowded like... well, concentration camps, funnily enough
Yes, it does seem like a lose/lose situation. Overcrowding! So? Prisons are overcrowded. Concentration Camps! Now you are being ridiculous.

Welcome to the America where people don't really care.


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There's a one-word answer to this, an answer these historians keep screaming, that should send chills down everyone's spine.

"Yet."
Sure, but I'm betting it will never, ever be that bad. And nobody believes it will be that bad. I'm not seeing the parallels, because American citizens are not being rounded up and sent to camps. And I am one who actually cares. The people who DON'T care, the ones you want to convince, definitely don't see the parallels. And saying "concentration camps" and Trump=Hitler is not helping.

Quote:
Also, whoops, funny story, here's another historian (who specializes in the Holocaust, fancy that) calling 'em concentration camps, how did that happen. (Lest anyone click through and get confused: for the record, Nicholas Clairmont is not a historian.)
That's some guy on Twitter. You think morons in West Virginia give one rat's ass what some douche bag academic on Twitter says?
  #114  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:03 PM
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I highly recommend Josh Marshall's righteous rant about the 'concentration camp' debate. I think he hits the nail on the head with this:
Ooh, another historian chiming in and saying that calling them concentration camps isn't wrong, funny how that keeps happening.

Also, here's the LA Times, the largest mainstream source to date willing to stake out this position: "Call immigrant detention centers what they really are: concentration camps".

The question of whether this is just one news cycle or whether the story has real, long-term legs is still open.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 06-19-2019 at 08:07 PM.
  #115  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:07 PM
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That's some guy on Twitter. You think morons in West Virginia give one rat's ass what some douche bag academic on Twitter says?
This feels like a layup, so let's just take the dunk: we may have some of those lovely people from West Virginia here on this very forum, in this very thread, who seem to think that I'm just saying "concentration camps" out of my own opinion or that it's somehow a fringe position, and I like to remind them that lots and lots of experts think they're wrong.
  #116  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:16 PM
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This feels like a layup, so let's just take the dunk: we may have some of those lovely people from West Virginia here on this very forum, in this very thread, who seem to think that I'm just saying "concentration camps" out of my own opinion or that it's somehow a fringe position, and I like to remind them that lots and lots of experts think they're wrong.
I don't think you are saying "concentration camps" out of your own opinion. You've linked to some fine historians and such who say the same thing. I'm telling you that the people you are trying to convince don't care what these historians say. They care about what they know of "concentration camps" that they have read in history books and seen on TV. They are morons. They think coal is coming back. They think the President is the best President in the history of Presidents. They are 48th or 49th in literacy rate. A random person on Twitter is not going to convince them. Front page news every single day might.

I'm a smart person, and until I see "the deliberate policy of extermination through labor...was designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time" then I'm not going to consider them "concentration camps". But that doesn't mean the conditions aren't a horrible way to treat human beings.
  #117  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:45 PM
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So if it works according to plan, it won't have backfired you say? Fascinating.
...the camps have been almost ignored by the media for since the initial flurry when the child separation policy began. Even the recent revelation that 1000's of additional children had been separated didn't bring the camps back into the news. The camps have now trended for a couple of days now. This isn't a "backfire."

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How about if people just stop reading after yet again they see liberals crying about Trump=Hitler.
You are in the middle of a propaganda war. You need to come to grips with that. Just look at this. I'm a photographer. Its plain as day that those photos have been "blocked out", that they have been posed, that these photos probably don't reflect the reality of transgender women in detention. You can't counter propaganda by pretending that everything is okay.

Here's the reality:

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Key administration vacancies currently held by acting leaders include the Department of Homeland Security and the Interior Department (both Cabinet-level), along with Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the Federal Aviation Administration, the Food and Drug Administration, the Secret Service and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. There is only an acting ambassador to the United Nations, following Nikki Haley’s departure, and the Office of Management and Budget is run by a temporary director — because Mick Mulvaney left that job vacant to serve as Trump’s acting White House chief of staff.
https://www.salon.com/2019/06/19/tru...pares-for-war/

Trump & Co have adopted a deliberate strategy having leaders in place precisely so they can avoid oversight. Kirstjen Nielsen stood down because she knew what was coming was indefensible. Sarah Saldaña stood down in 2017. A self-admitted white supremacist is generally regarded as the person who is setting immigration policy. Katharine Gorka, who has a "long history of working with far-right national security groups, and her writings have been described as anti-Muslim in sentiment" and who is married to this guy, is expected to be named Customs and Border Protection press secretary.

Can you not see the problem?

Yes: people are going to say "liberals crying about Trump=Hitler". That is inevitable. Because this is a propaganda war. They will lie, they will mis-characterize, they will spin the truth. I mean seriously: what did you expect? They are always going to be pushing back. Especially when you bring a subject like this back into the spotlight.

But the situation on the borders is an emergency. This is a deliberately manufactured crisis. It will only get worse if nothing is done. There is limited oversight, they are making things up as they go along, and the people in charge are literal white supremacists. We are beyond the point of appeasing the outrage machine because the outrage machine is simply another tool of the Trump administration. The goal is to silence opposition. And if you buy into the narrative that we need to modify our language lest "we upset the right wing" then you are making a serious mistake.
  #118  
Old 06-19-2019, 08:58 PM
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But the situation on the borders is an emergency.
Is it? How would I know it's an emergency? I just looked on the CNN web site, and the top story is lack of water in a city in India. There is not one story about the horrible conditions in the camps. If the situation is such an emergency, how come I don't know about it unless I search for stories about it?
  #119  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:04 PM
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  #120  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:06 PM
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Is it? How would I know it's an emergency? I just looked on the CNN web site, and the top story is lack of water in a city in India. There is not one story about the horrible conditions in the camps. If the situation is such an emergency, how come I don't know about it unless I search for stories about it?
...I think my entire point is that this story has dropped off the radar, that the media have not been covering the story well enough, and even though the story has been bought back into the public conciseness there is still a fuck-load more work that needs to be done. Are you disagreeing that its an emergency, or are you complaining that the media aren't doing a good enough job here?
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:12 PM
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...I think my entire point is that this story has dropped off the radar, that the media have not been covering the story well enough, and even though the story has been bought back into the public conciseness there is still a fuck-load more work that needs to be done. Are you disagreeing that its an emergency, or are you complaining that the media aren't doing a good enough job here?
I'm complaining that the media are not doing a good enough job. I don't understand how the media who hates Trump would not be broadcasting the horrible conditions everyday in front page stories.

I absolutely believe that human beings are being treating horribly.
  #122  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:44 PM
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I'm complaining that the media are not doing a good enough job. I don't understand how the media who hates Trump would not be broadcasting the horrible conditions everyday in front page stories.

I absolutely believe that human beings are being treating horribly.
...this smug editorial from Chuck Todd should give you an idea where (generally) the media have priorities. As Cortez says in response:

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Originally Posted by AOC
Well,
@chucktodd
- the fact that you slipped in “Nazi” when I never said that is pretty unfortunate.

Almost as unfortunate as the fact that you spent this whole time w/o discussing DHS freezers, “dog pounds,” missing children, & human rights abuses that uphold use of this term.
Trump isn't bad for the media. He makes them money. And its easier to attack someone like AOC than it is to acknowledge what is happening in the camps. This is just history repeating itself. I'm watching from afar with quiet detachment, punctuated by moments of utter despair.
  #123  
Old 06-19-2019, 10:32 PM
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I'm complaining that the media are not doing a good enough job. I don't understand how the media who hates Trump would not be broadcasting the horrible conditions everyday in front page stories.

I absolutely believe that human beings are being treating horribly.
Maybe they have limited access. Maybe they're reporting the abuses and people don't take the reports seriously.
  #124  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:43 AM
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Sure, but I'm betting it will never, ever be that bad. And nobody believes it will be that bad.
I fear it will become that bad.

The repetition of "it will never be that bad" and the belief that it couldn't be that bad is what will enable the conditions for it to be that bad.

Oh, I think the details will differ.... these things never happen exactly the same way twice. And sure as hell I don't think the next round of atrocities will be so lovingly documented as the Nazis documented their crimes.

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I'm not seeing the parallels, because American citizens are not being rounded up and sent to camps.
Why do we have to wait for it to be American citizens before we care?

On top of that - "Operation Janus" is taking a look at 700,000 current naturalized citizens with the power to revoke that citizenship. Which has some very disturbing parallels with the Vichy regimen revoking citizenship prior to shipping "undesirables" like Jews, Romani, communists, homosexuals, and others off to oblivion.

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And I am one who actually cares. The people who DON'T care, the ones you want to convince, definitely don't see the parallels. And saying "concentration camps" and Trump=Hitler is not helping.
Refusing to call things what they are doesn't help, either.
  #125  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:46 AM
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I'm a smart person, and until I see "the deliberate policy of extermination through labor...was designed to ensure that the inmates would die of starvation, untreated disease and summary executions within set periods of time" then I'm not going to consider them "concentration camps". But that doesn't mean the conditions aren't a horrible way to treat human beings.
Got it - you aren't going to call them concentration camps until they are extermination camps. You aren't going to call them what they are until people start dying in numbers.

People are already getting inadequate food and there are already problems with disease in these places. But hey, if these folks aren't being asked to work, too, it doesn't count - is that what you're saying?
  #126  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:52 AM
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I'm complaining that the media are not doing a good enough job. I don't understand how the media who hates Trump would not be broadcasting the horrible conditions everyday in front page stories.
Well, for one thing, the press has limited access to these facilities.

And then we have the problem of people not believing that concentration camps are concentration camps.
  #127  
Old 06-20-2019, 04:59 AM
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But hey, if these folks aren't being asked to work, too, it doesn't count - is that what you're saying?
They are; it was news a year ago.
Detainees at the Stewart Detention Center in south Georgia generally make between $1 and $4 a day for tasks such as preparing food, mopping floors and doing laundry, according to the lawsuit, which describes the practice as a "deprivation scheme" and alleges it's a violation of human trafficking laws. Detainees who work double shifts can earn up to $8 a day.

Part of the scheme, according to the lawsuit: Depriving detainees of basic necessities like food, toothpaste, soap and toilet paper, so they have to work to pay for those items from the detention center's commissary.
  #128  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:04 AM
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I'm complaining that the media are not doing a good enough job. I don't understand how the media who hates Trump would not be broadcasting the horrible conditions everyday in front page stories.

I absolutely believe that human beings are being treating horribly.
Agreed. I don't think it matters what you call the camps -- if the media aren't covering what's going on, no one is going to care.

Of course, maybe that's backwards -- the media aren't covering the camps because they already suspect no one will care. 40% of the country will say the detainees are getting what they deserve, and 40% will have their disgust-o-meters ratcheted another notch fast capacity.

But that crucial 20% in the middle will find it very hard to care, because seeing such atrocities perpetrated by their own government will trigger not outrage but cognitive dissonance.

And cognitive dissonance is bad for ratings.
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  #129  
Old 06-20-2019, 10:05 AM
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Question: Is the objection that migrants are being held in camps that are inhumane, or that they are being detained at all in the first place?
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Old 06-20-2019, 10:23 AM
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Question: Is the objection that migrants are being held in camps that are inhumane, or that they are being detained at all in the first place?
Speaking just for myself ...

If the appropriate agencies saw a major influx of people who wanted to immigrate and/or seek asylum, and if they determined that the only safe and efficient way to handle that influx was to detain those people while their applications were assessed, and if they built clean, safe, reasonably comfortable facilities to house those people temporarily, and if those facilities kept families together, and if the agencies in question devoted sufficient resources to processing asylum applications so detainees could either be released into the US or back into Mexico expeditiously, then I would not necessarily object to the whole operation.

But none of those if's are realities, and members of this administration have flatly admitted that the entire operation is meant to be punitive, not administrative. So -- kinda like the SCOTUS once ruled that "separate" was inherently unequal -- I would say in this situation detention is inherently inhumane. Plus fucking evil.
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  #131  
Old 06-20-2019, 12:21 PM
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To the OP, this will not move the needle appreciably in either direction. The kind of people who DO care about unnamed strangers' suffering enough to let it sway their votes are, I am sorry to say, not only few and far between, but probably already voting against Trump for lots of other reasons. For every one that might be compelled to vote against him because of this, there will be another he'll get with a "See why we need my wall?" argument. I'm sure there are some leftover thoughts and prayers laying around ready for mass shooting victims, so maybe we could send a few of those...

As to the appropriate terminology... Yes, it fits the textbook definition of concentration camps. It certainly does not fit the popular definition. If the question of interest is whether the election outcome will be affected, then the only definition that's important whatsoever is what the voting public is going to use when they evaluate the news they hear. By an astoundingly huge margin the public is not going to read lengthy historical papers on concentration camps; they are going to hear CNN and Fox News talking about it in small sound bites and 3-5 minute segments. When they hear the phrase "concentration camp" they will equate it with Nazi death camps whether it's technically accurate to do so or not. It's not an emotionally neutral term, so the choice of whether to use it shouldn't rest on whether it's appropriate in some pedantic sense, but whether it serves the aims of your argument. While some few people might be "woken up" or "shocked enough to look into the matter" or some such, others (and I think this number would prove much greater) will see nothing but partisan spin and hyperbole and dismiss you out of hand without listening to the rest of what you have to say. I would hazard the opinion that it would be more productive to present the case of inhumane treatment without the loaded terminology and maybe get people to listen, than it is to be technically correct and lose the opportunity.

Edit: Case in point-> A huge chunk of this thread is about the term, far more than the actual conditions, policies, etc.

Last edited by CAH66; 06-20-2019 at 12:24 PM.
  #132  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:34 PM
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As to the appropriate terminology... Yes, it fits the textbook definition of concentration camps. It certainly does not fit the popular definition. If the question of interest is whether the election outcome will be affected, then the only definition that's important whatsoever is what the voting public is going to use when they evaluate the news they hear. By an astoundingly huge margin the public is not going to read lengthy historical papers on concentration camps; they are going to hear CNN and Fox News talking about it in small sound bites and 3-5 minute segments. When they hear the phrase "concentration camp" they will equate it with Nazi death camps whether it's technically accurate to do so or not. It's not an emotionally neutral term, so the choice of whether to use it shouldn't rest on whether it's appropriate in some pedantic sense, but whether it serves the aims of your argument. While some few people might be "woken up" or "shocked enough to look into the matter" or some such, others (and I think this number would prove much greater) will see nothing but partisan spin and hyperbole and dismiss you out of hand without listening to the rest of what you have to say. I would hazard the opinion that it would be more productive to present the case of inhumane treatment without the loaded terminology and maybe get people to listen, than it is to be technically correct and lose the opportunity.
...does the term "concentration camp" bother you more than the constant stream of propaganda and lies that are being disseminated by the administration, and if so why? Do you think a single word is more problematic than an obviously staged photo-opportunity of transgender prisoners?

Quote:
Edit: Case in point-> A huge chunk of this thread is about the term, far more than the actual conditions, policies, etc.
You do realize you are contributing to that right? You've just written a massive paragraph about "why its a problem." You could have chosen to have written something else. You can, if you like, write about something else. What would you like to say about the actual conditions, policies, etc? The floor is yours.
  #133  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:46 PM
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The effect on his campaign will mostly be positive. Death camps would be even better for his numbers; legalizing the slaughter of foreigners by any white adult citizen would be best of all. The median US citizen is highly xenophobic, and the more brown folks his side can kill off, the further right that median is.

None of this justifies what CBP is doing. Morality is not merely a function of popularity. Anyone in public service needs to remember the difference.
You really believe that?
  #134  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:51 PM
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I think calling them 'Concentration Camps' is a mistake, and will actually have the opposite effect to what was intended, as well as to further erode the term and will only play well for the faithful...which I think we can see in this thread.

It is, again, trying to use charged language to make a connection but that doesn't actually do anything to look at the real issue, what can be done and what should be done. Instead, to me, it's another example of people trying to score points, not really deal with the issue. This is essentially the same effort to paint Trump et al as fascists or Nazi's or whatever, and basically just erodes those terms and muddies the waters, detracting from the real bad shit the guy does and actually giving him cover since it's so ridiculous.

Stop doing this. Not that any of the faithful here are likely to listen, but you are fucking up. Again. So, to answer the question, what effect will this have on the election? None. Worse, it will muddy the water, make folks ignore the issue and dig in their heels and basically not a fucking thing will get done on something more important than the election...the actual issue and it's root cause, which is that there is a domino effect happening in Central America and the entire region is melting down. But, you know, by all means let's say they are Concentration Camps so we can try and associate Trump with Hitler and the administration and Republicans with Nazi because there are points to score!!
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  #135  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:54 PM
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...this smug editorial from Chuck Todd should give you an idea where (generally) the media have priorities.
...and probably as a result of that editorial:

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Some news: @kaitlancollins and I are told that Trump will appear on @MeetThePress this weekend, his first appearance on the show since he took office. It's also NBC's first interview since Trump's 2017 sit down w/@LesterHoltNBC
https://twitter.com/oliverdarcy/stat...81251340345351

Well done Chuck.
  #136  
Old 06-20-2019, 02:54 PM
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I think calling them 'Concentration Camps' is a mistake, and will actually have the opposite effect to what was intended, as well as to further erode the term and will only play well for the faithful...which I think we can see in this thread.

It is, again, trying to use charged language to make a connection but that doesn't actually do anything to look at the real issue, what can be done and what should be done. Instead, to me, it's another example of people trying to score points, not really deal with the issue. This is essentially the same effort to paint Trump et al as fascists or Nazi's or whatever, and basically just erodes those terms and muddies the waters, detracting from the real bad shit the guy does and actually giving him cover since it's so ridiculous.

Stop doing this. Not that any of the faithful here are likely to listen, but you are fucking up. Again. So, to answer the question, what effect will this have on the election? None. Worse, it will muddy the water, make folks ignore the issue and dig in their heels and basically not a fucking thing will get done on something more important than the election...the actual issue and it's root cause, which is that there is a domino effect happening in Central America and the entire region is melting down. But, you know, by all means let's say they are Concentration Camps so we can try and associate Trump with Hitler and the administration and Republicans with Nazi because there are points to score!!
"Weaponizing" certain phrases can be extremely effective in politics -- see Frank Luntz's workand the largely successful way the word "liberal" has been demonized. I think the Democrats should use similar tactics in some circumstances, and this might be one of them. It's a dirty game, and fighting dirty is sometimes the only way to win.
  #137  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:02 PM
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"Weaponizing" certain phrases can be extremely effective in politics -- see Frank Luntz's workand the largely successful way the word "liberal" has been demonized. I think the Democrats should use similar tactics in some circumstances, and this might be one of them. It's a dirty game, and fighting dirty is sometimes the only way to win.
If you think this is a winning strategy, then all I can say is...I disagree. This will basically only be effective on people who already believe, and will cause people in the middle to basically not take anyone saying this serious. The faithful on the other side, of course, aren't going to be reached by any evidence, assertion or phrase that goes against their world view.

I don't think this is on par with making 'liberal' a dirty world...the analogy would be making 'liberal' associated with Stalin, ACTUAL death camps and the deaths of millions. Note, by and large this isn't what the right or conservatives actually tried to do. Instead, they made 'liberal' associated with fluffy headed and pie in the sky intellectual types who don't know shit about economics or 'the real world'.
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  #138  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:18 PM
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Stop doing this. Not that any of the faithful here are likely to listen, but you are fucking up. Again. So, to answer the question, what effect will this have on the election? None.
...oh for fucks sakes this has nothing to do with the fucking election. We can't just stop doing stuff because there is going to be an election in two years. We can't just stop speaking out because a random person on the internet thinks "speaking out" might affect the way people will vote. There is no magical correct course of action here that will guarantee a Trump loss in 2020. You can't stop people speaking out. If you are worried about the next election then worry about voter suppression, worry about getting people out to vote, worry about voter machines, worry about the security of the next election. All of those things will have infinitely more effect on the next election than a single word.

Calling them concentration camps changes the conversation. It correctly describes the conditions of the camp and the purpose of the camp. The only people who are associating the use of the word with "Trump with Hitler" are people like you who have no hesitation in propagating that narrative. So just stop doing that already.
  #139  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:26 PM
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...does the term "concentration camp" bother you more than the constant stream of propaganda and lies that are being disseminated by the administration, and if so why? Do you think a single word is more problematic than an obviously staged photo-opportunity of transgender prisoners?



You do realize you are contributing to that right? You've just written a massive paragraph about "why its a problem." You could have chosen to have written something else. You can, if you like, write about something else. What would you like to say about the actual conditions, policies, etc? The floor is yours.


The OP was asking about the effects these camps would have on Trump's election. I've already chimed in that I think it will basically be nada, (regardless of the terminology.) However, I could be wrong and, unless I really miss my guess here, I believe that most of the people oppose the camps, Trump's policies, and ultimately his re-election. To that end, I advise for purely practical reasons not using a term which is going to cause a whole bunch of people to stop listening to your arguments.

Basic communication includes not just what you say, but how you say it. Knowing (and we all do by now) what the differences between the historical/textbook meaning of "concentration camp" is vs the colloquial meaning is should determine whether it's a good term to use given the aims you are trying to achieve. If these people would rather be correct than persuasive, if they'd rather continue to argue about the language instead of the policies that motivated them in the first place, or if they'd just like to vent spleen and rage against injustices to the like-minded, then by all means carry on. On the other hand, if they want to reach out to people and possibly change some minds, than maybe they should rethink the way they present their arguments so that people don't dismiss them as overwrought cranks out of hand.
  #140  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:32 PM
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Got it - you aren't going to call them concentration camps until they are extermination camps. You aren't going to call them what they are until people start dying in numbers.

People are already getting inadequate food and there are already problems with disease in these places. But hey, if these folks aren't being asked to work, too, it doesn't count - is that what you're saying?
I'm not sure what is so hard to understand. You can call them "concentration camps" as much as you want. As soon as you say "concentration camps" to someone you are trying to convince, they are immediately going to think of Nazi concentration camps. Not extermination camps. The concentration camps where people worked until they died, or starved to death, or were shot or whatever.

At that point, you can go a long historical journey about Britain and Boers and the Japanese or whatever camps at whatever time in history. You can totally do that. But people are not going to listen. And why aren't they going to listen? Because the situation at the border is NOT Nazi-level concentration camps. And that's what people think when you say it. Know your audience. The people you need to convince are stupid enough to not already know what is going on. They are not going to care that some academic says "They so totally are concentration camps!". So they are going to stop listening to you. And isn't that your goal? Getting people to listen? If not, then WHAT is your goal?
  #141  
Old 06-20-2019, 03:52 PM
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...oh for fucks sakes this has nothing to do with the fucking election. We can't just stop doing stuff because there is going to be an election in two years. We can't just stop speaking out because a random person on the internet thinks "speaking out" might affect the way people will vote. There is no magical correct course of action here that will guarantee a Trump loss in 2020. You can't stop people speaking out. If you are worried about the next election then worry about voter suppression, worry about getting people out to vote, worry about voter machines, worry about the security of the next election. All of those things will have infinitely more effect on the next election than a single word.

Calling them concentration camps changes the conversation. It correctly describes the conditions of the camp and the purpose of the camp. The only people who are associating the use of the word with "Trump with Hitler" are people like you who have no hesitation in propagating that narrative. So just stop doing that already.
Horseshit. The term was chosen, deliberately, to create this impression and craft the narrative exactly as it has been. Then folks like you can come in with a butter wouldn't melt in your mouths look and say, no, it wasn't meant to be that, no one meant it to be an association of 'Trump with Hitler', that's all in your head...just stop. Fwapfwapfwapfwap.

They aren't concentration camps. They are transitory detention camps. See, folks go into them...and get processed pretty much as quickly as they can and sent back where they came from. And then, in many cases, try to come back again, and are detained again. Actual concentration camps have never worked that way. They aren't transitory or meant to detain people trying to do something while they are processed and sent back to somewhere. That's not how US concentration camps worked for the Japanese during the war, or any other Concentration Camp in history. It's not how they worked during the Boer Wars, or in China, or Russia, or Germany or anywhere else. It's not even how it's worked in the West Bank region with the semi-permanent camps for the Palestinians which is probably the closest actual analogy. But then, this isn't about historical or linguistic accuracy...it's about scoring points and guiding the narrative. Oh, but we is all too stupid to see that and butter wouldn't melt in your mouth. Sorry...forgot about that.

As for stopping people from speaking out, what another load of horseshit. I'm not trying to stop people from speaking out...I'm trying to stop them from being stupid by pointing out that this tactic isn't going to work and will, IMHO, backfire. But, you know, you do you...I'm sure the Dems who are doing this know what they are doing and have everything under control.
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  #142  
Old 06-20-2019, 04:33 PM
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Question: Is the objection that migrants are being held in camps that are inhumane, or that they are being detained at all in the first place?
My objection is more to the inhumane conditions than the detainment AND needlessly splitting up families, although I question if all of those people really do need to be detained at all. But if we are going to detain people it should be done in a humane manner, meaning adequate room, actual beds of some sort, modern sanitation, adequate food and water and so on.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-20-2019 at 04:34 PM.
  #143  
Old 06-20-2019, 04:44 PM
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I'm not sure what is so hard to understand. You can call them "concentration camps" as much as you want. As soon as you say "concentration camps" to someone you are trying to convince, they are immediately going to think of Nazi concentration camps. Not extermination camps. The concentration camps where people worked until they died, or starved to death, or were shot or whatever.
The Nazi camps didn't start with extermination, they started with "detaining" "foreigners", or removing them from an area. They world up to the idea of industrial murder. Which is where I fear this is going if the alt-right Trumpists aren't stopped.

But hey, if you insist apples are oranges we can call them "detainment camps". Which are cruel and inhumane and should be dismantled and the occupants apologized to.

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And isn't that your goal? Getting people to listen? If not, then WHAT is your goal?
If I have a goal here it's to wake people up and get them angry enough to do something - like vote out this administration which has no problems stealing children and keeping human beings of all ages in horrible conditions, and apparently doesn't give a damn if people die or kids go missing.

Last edited by Broomstick; 06-20-2019 at 04:44 PM.
  #144  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:08 PM
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Horseshit. The term was chosen, deliberately, to create this impression and craft the narrative exactly as it has been.
...horseshit. For months people who are qualified to speak on the matter have been calling them concentration camps: if you hadn't noticed then you simply hadn't been payin attention. All AOC did was bring it to the public's consciousness.

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Then folks like you can come in with a butter wouldn't melt in your mouths look and say, no, it wasn't meant to be that, no one meant it to be an association of 'Trump with Hitler', that's all in your head...just stop. Fwapfwapfwapfwap.
It is all in your head.

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They aren't concentration camps. They are transitory detention camps.
I just googled "transitory detention camps." I got a single hit. From 2012.

You've just made that up. How Orwellian of you.


Quote:
See, folks go into them...and get processed pretty much as quickly as they can and sent back where they came from. And then, in many cases, try to come back again, and are detained again.
Are you just regurgitating government propaganda or can you back any of this up? How quickly are they being processed, and what are the conditions they are being held in? Are families still being seperated? Has the process to seek asylum changed?

Quote:
Actual concentration camps have never worked that way. They aren't transitory or meant to detain people trying to do something while they are processed and sent back to somewhere. That's not how US concentration camps worked for the Japanese during the war, or any other Concentration Camp in history. It's not how they worked during the Boer Wars, or in China, or Russia, or Germany or anywhere else. It's not even how it's worked in the West Bank region with the semi-permanent camps for the Palestinians which is probably the closest actual analogy. But then, this isn't about historical or linguistic accuracy...it's about scoring points and guiding the narrative.
Its funny how multiple historians have been cited in this thread that state that concentration camp is an appropriate word to be using here but random internet poster says they are all wrong. I'll side with the historians over the random internet poster.

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Oh, but we is all too stupid to see that and butter wouldn't melt in your mouth. Sorry...forgot about that.
You said it, not me.

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As for stopping people from speaking out, what another load of horseshit. I'm not trying to stop people from speaking out...I'm trying to stop them from being stupid by pointing out that this tactic isn't going to work and will, IMHO, backfire. But, you know, you do you...I'm sure the Dems who are doing this know what they are doing and have everything under control.
Of course you are trying to get people to stop speaking out. You are using the fear of losing the next election to get people to "shut up." AOC does know what she is doing. People are dying in those camps. 7 more children have died in custody than have ever died in detention in the previous 10 years (where none died) Adults have died as well but we don't have accurate figures. There are secret shelters.

We are only scratching on the surface of what is actually happening in the camps. You can't ignore that this system has been set up by a literal white supremacist.

You are going to be on the wrong side of history. "Transitory detention camps." Holy fucking shit.
  #145  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:14 PM
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The OP was asking about the effects these camps would have on Trump's election. I've already chimed in that I think it will basically be nada, (regardless of the terminology.) However, I could be wrong and, unless I really miss my guess here, I believe that most of the people oppose the camps, Trump's policies, and ultimately his re-election. To that end, I advise for purely practical reasons not using a term which is going to cause a whole bunch of people to stop listening to your arguments.
...the bunch of people who stop listening to your arguments were never listening to our arguments anyway.

Quote:
Basic communication includes not just what you say, but how you say it. Knowing (and we all do by now) what the differences between the historical/textbook meaning of "concentration camp" is vs the colloquial meaning is should determine whether it's a good term to use given the aims you are trying to achieve. If these people would rather be correct than persuasive, if they'd rather continue to argue about the language instead of the policies that motivated them in the first place, or if they'd just like to vent spleen and rage against injustices to the like-minded, then by all means carry on. On the other hand, if they want to reach out to people and possibly change some minds, than maybe they should rethink the way they present their arguments so that people don't dismiss them as overwrought cranks out of hand.
Can you quantify any of this? How do you know that using the word "concentration camp" has not been persuasive? Why are you continuing to argue about the language when I explicitly invited you to talk about the policies that motivated them in the first place?

I'm not stopping you talking about the policies instead of the language. You are the one who is not talking about them.
  #146  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:38 PM
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Happy World Refugee Day, everyone!

Jesus wept.
  #147  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:44 PM
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If I have a goal here it's to wake people up and get them angry enough to do something - like vote out this administration which has no problems stealing children and keeping human beings of all ages in horrible conditions, and apparently doesn't give a damn if people die or kids go missing.
Great! But they aren't going to do that if they stop listening to you.
  #148  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:52 PM
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Great! But they aren't going to do that if they stop listening to you.
...AOC has a social-media reach second only to Donald Trump (In regards to politicians). The people that she needed to reach are listening to her. Those people will engage in their own circles to spread that same message but adjusted to suit their audience. Trying to reach everyone is a fools game. That isn't how it works any more.
  #149  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:54 PM
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I'd like to hear how you think the conversation would go:

"Hi, I'd like you to vote for the Democrat candidate so we can stop travesty going on at the border in the concentration camps..."

"Wait, we have concentration camps at the border? We are forcing people to work until they die, we are deliberately starving them, we are executing them?"

"No, not that. But holding people in dangerous conditions while they wait to be processed"

"So, we are not deliberately killing them? Doesn't sound like concentration camps to me."

"They are. Here are some sites to historians that say they meet the classical definition of concentration camp that was used up until 1945 and when you...."

"Whatever. Let me know when we start deliberately killing people."
  #150  
Old 06-20-2019, 05:55 PM
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...AOC has a social-media reach second only to Donald Trump (In regards to politicians). The people that she needed to reach are listening to her. Those people will engage in their own circles to spread that same message but adjusted to suit their audience. Trying to reach everyone is a fools game. That isn't how it works any more.
Yeah, and she's being endlessly mocked for saying "concentration camp"

How is that helping?
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