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  #51  
Old 06-21-2019, 12:10 PM
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There is no such 90-day limit in the law. The 90-day limit is how long the Commission will be around after they complete their work.
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Thanks!
My apologies, I misread that.
  #52  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:02 PM
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So you're in favor of reparations for segregation?
Not in a box, not with a fox. I am not in favor of tripling my tax bill at all, for anything, SamI Am.
  #53  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:04 PM
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Not in a box, not with a fox. I am not in favor of tripling my tax bill at all, for anything, SamI Am.
You know the guy in the story eventually tried and enjoyed the green eggs and ham, right?
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  #54  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:05 PM
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I have a hard time deciding whether I'm for or against reparations without knowing what "reparations" are. A lot of people seems to be assuming that it will be "using the government to take white people's money and give it to black people in the form of large checks" but that's not remotely a given. There are a wide range of possible options here, many of which we haven't even thought about yet.

Gee, if only someone would conduct a study that would result in some potential reparations proposals...
But they haven't ruled that out. And that's the killer. Us working class people have to live with the fear and anger about our tax bills tripling. The blacks will be angry when those checks dont come.

When the "pie in the sky" of $1,000,000 checks evaporate you're not going to have anything but a lot of angry, disillusioned people.
  #55  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:08 PM
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As I said up-thread, we don't have to call it reparations. I'd prefer set of policies that target historically disadvantaged people. In fact, in some ways we already have a form of reparations: it's called affirmative action, which I support.

Sure that's great. But that's not what has been sold as "pie in the sky" for decades and even longer- Million dollar checks. And if reparations end up being some more college grants and money for disadvantaged inner city areas, I am all for that- except that that will just leave blacks angrier than before.

Nope, it's Million dollar checks or nothing- and since it CAN NOT BE million dollar checks- lets drop the whole stupid idea.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:10 PM
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Along with what has been said above, I would like to add that planting the idea into people's minds that a big monetary check is on the way, and then later on yanking the carpet from underneath them and telling them that they won't be getting the ca$h after all, is going to be worse off psychologically than never having introduced the idea at all in the first place.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:15 PM
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Native Americans got a really bad deal too. Some of the poorest areas now are their reservations. I would expect them to ask for money as well.
And Hispanics. And women, chinese, irish, gays.....
  #58  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:15 PM
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But they haven't ruled that out. And that's the killer. Us working class people have to live with the fear and anger about our tax bills tripling. The blacks will be angry when those checks dont come.



When the "pie in the sky" of $1,000,000 checks evaporate you're not going to have anything but a lot of angry, disillusioned people.
Thanks for this.

"The blacks will be angry..."

Fear of supposedly 'angry blacks' drives a lot of policy in the US, pretty much none of it to the benefit of black Americans.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:20 PM
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The possibility of reparations for harm done to Native Americans absolutely should be extensively researched and considered.
Why leave out Hispanics? And women, chinese, irish, gays.....

Haven't they been mistreated? Discriminated against?

Look, let's make it easy. We take ALL the money, homes, land and anything of value from every straight white male in the uSA, and hand it over to everyone else. OK? Will that make you happy? Because that's the only end result.

Tell us iiandyiiii if you want you tax bill tripled so much, how many thousands of $ have you donated to the NAACP and the United Negro College Fund? or are you just willing to pick MY pocket, not yours?
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:29 PM
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Why leave out Hispanics? And women, chinese, irish, gays.....



Haven't they been mistreated? Discriminated against?



Look, let's make it easy. We take ALL the money, homes, land and anything of value from every straight white male in the uSA, and hand it over to everyone else. OK? Will that make you happy? Because that's the only end result.



Tell us iiandyiiii if you want you tax bill tripled so much, how many thousands of $ have you donated to the NAACP and the United Negro College Fund? or are you just willing to pick MY pocket, not yours?
I'll leave your to your fantasy world.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:30 PM
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Why leave out Hispanics? And women, chinese, irish, gays.....
What is going to make this process even more odious is that the powers that be will have to determine degrees of discrimination. Either they will have to give every Hispanic/woman/Chinese/Irish/gay person the same $ amount as they gave each black person, or they will have to scale it up or down to a certain proportion of it.

They would have to determine, for instance, that a Hispanic has suffered "only 60%" the discrimination that a black person has suffered, so only gets 60% the amount of reparations. And maybe a gay or lesbian has suffered a bit more; so perhaps 73%.

There's no way to come up with a calculation like that without causing tremendous revulsion.
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:31 PM
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I'll leave your to your fantasy world.
You're the one pushing for a far-out idea that has little chance of happening, not us.
  #63  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:32 PM
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What is going to make this process even more odious is that the powers that be will have to determine degrees of discrimination. Either they will have to give every Hispanic/woman/Chinese/Irish/gay person the same $ amount as they gave each black person, or they will have to scale it up or down to a certain proportion of it.



They would have to determine, for instance, that a Hispanic has suffered "only 60%" the discrimination that a black person has suffered, so only gets 60% the amount of reparations. And maybe a gay or lesbian has suffered a bit more; so perhaps 73%.



There's no way to come up with a calculation like that without causing tremendous revulsion.
Or maybe tons of other possibilities, like focused community investment, that you haven't considered. But if you prefer to create a straw version of reparations to knock down, then that is your right.

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You're the one pushing for a far-out idea that has little chance of happening, not us.
Study and research aren't far out ideas, IMO. YMMV.
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Last edited by iiandyiiii; 06-21-2019 at 02:33 PM.
  #64  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:34 PM
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I'll leave your to your fantasy world.
So it's a fantasy that hispanics, women, gays, and chinese have been discriminated against?
  #65  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:35 PM
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So it's a fantasy that hispanics, women, gays, and chinese have been discriminated against?
Keep knocking down those straw men!
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  #66  
Old 06-21-2019, 02:36 PM
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Or maybe tons of other possibilities, like focused community investment, that you haven't considered. But if you prefer to create a straw version of reparations to knock down, then that is your right.


If you and Coates and Congress will simply agree that checks are right out, then we can have that discussion. But as long as million $ checks are on the table, this ain't going to get anywhere, and people are going to be angry and disappointed that no checks are forthcoming. As they can't be.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:10 PM
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If you and Coates and Congress will simply agree that checks are right out, then we can have that discussion. But as long as million $ checks are on the table, this ain't going to get anywhere, and people are going to be angry and disappointed that no checks are forthcoming. As they can't be.
So you would support HR 40 if it had an addendum "absolutely no checks!"?
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:39 PM
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So you would support HR 40 if it had an addendum "absolutely no checks!"?
How about an addendum specifying an upper limit on how much will be paid out? Part of the resistance, ISTM, is the open-endedness. As well, as mentioned above, managing expectations.

So, no matter what is found, we aren't going to pay out more than, say, $100 million. Or, pick a figure - $500 million? A billion? $10 billion? A trillion?

The Japanese-Americans got, IIRC, $20K apiece. $20K for every black American is $840,000,000,000. That seems like a lot to me. Is there a different figure you think might be better?

Regards,
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:43 PM
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So you would support HR 40 if it had an addendum "absolutely no checks!"?
And it included women, gays, Hispanics, Chinese, etc...
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:44 PM
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How about an addendum specifying an upper limit on how much will be paid out? Part of the resistance, ISTM, is the open-endedness. As well, as mentioned above, managing expectations.

So, no matter what is found, we aren't going to pay out more than, say, $100 million. Or, pick a figure - $500 million? A billion? $10 billion? A trillion?

The Japanese-Americans got, IIRC, $20K apiece. $20K for every black American is $840,000,000,000. That seems like a lot to me. Is there a different figure you think might be better?
.
And $20000 for every Native American.

How about gays, hispanics, chinese, women.....?

So it's $20,000 for 200 million Americans.

Do the math.
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:45 PM
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How about an addendum specifying an upper limit on how much will be paid out? Part of the resistance, ISTM, is the open-endedness. As well, as mentioned above, managing expectations.

So, no matter what is found, we aren't going to pay out more than, say, $100 million. Or, pick a figure - $500 million? A billion? $10 billion? A trillion?

The Japanese-Americans got, IIRC, $20K apiece. $20K for every black American is $840,000,000,000. That seems like a lot to me. Is there a different figure you think might be better?

Regards,
Shodan
But HR 40 doesn't mandate any payment at all, or anything beyond the study and a report/recommendation. Congress would have to pass another bill to actually take any action regarding reparations.
  #72  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:49 PM
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Just for housekeeping, since there are currently two active threads that are related to reparations, let's try to focus this one a bit to avoid the general overlap.

This one is specifically about HR40, and whether opposition is semi-racist. Please focus on that topic in this thread. A more general discussion about reparations and related issues should be had in this thread here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=877397

[/moderating]
  #73  
Old 06-21-2019, 03:50 PM
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Just for housekeeping, since there are currently two active threads that are related to reparations, let's try to focus this one a bit to avoid the general overlap.

This one is specifically about HR40, and whether opposition is semi-racist. Please focus on that topic in this thread. A more general discussion about reparations and related issues should be had in this thread here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=877397

[/moderating]
On that note, I don't believe opposition to HR 40 is necessarily racist or semi-racist, and IMO it's possible to be skeptical of reparations for a variety of non-racist reasons.
  #74  
Old 06-21-2019, 06:19 PM
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If this bill will put more money in the hands of people who will spend it then I'm all for it currently.
  #75  
Old 06-21-2019, 07:14 PM
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It is not disingenuous to point out that this is just promoting a study. There is a difference between opposing a study on the problem and opposing a particular solution to the problem. The latter, of course, has far more non-racist reasons possible, simply because it would be more specific. If someone opposed ever discussing reparations, there would be even fewer non-racist reasons. And if they opposed the entire concept, there are even fewer (because now they have the problem of opposing reparations paid in the past.)

That said, of course you can oppose it for a non-racist reason. But this is such an obvious truism that I can't see how that is the question directly. The OP appears to be asking if the specific reason he gave counts as a non-racist reason.

My response "Yes, but." There's nothing racist on its face to say this bill is hyperbole and a token appeal to the progressive crowd that will only drive away more moderate voters. But the devil is in the details. You'd have to investigate why you believe that to be true.

Every thought you have has some sort of underlying assumption. I can't tell you what those assumptions are. All I can say is that you need to investigate them.

I definitely could conceive of "semi-racist" reasons someone might come to that conclusion. For example, deep beneath it all, they see reparations as them black people trying to get unearned money from the government. Assuming the advocates' motivations are bad like that isn't quite racist, but I'd be fine with "semi-racist" when you apply it to black people in general.

But, ultimately, only you know the answer for what assumptions lead to your conclusions. I myself have little interest in this bill after seeing it. I do not think it would galvanize centrists or moderates against anyone, even if it is only a bone being thrown to progressives.

I think your position is the common one: moderates and further left who oppose it aren't really all that passionate about it. Anyone who would change their vote over this is probably already going to vote R or is so picky they were going to vote third party or not vote anyways.

Last edited by BigT; 06-21-2019 at 07:18 PM.
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