Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 07-22-2019, 11:46 PM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 11,324
Update on the fines.
  #102  
Old 07-23-2019, 04:58 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
Thank you for posting this and I hope everyone reads the attached judges ruling. In it he judge makes it damn clear the case is closed and the college needs to stop the legal wrangling, appeal crap, and the "This isn't over!" attitude and shut up/pay up. He writes "Case closed" and "IT IS SO ORDERED" (yes in call caps) at the bottom.

Also in awarding legal fees he took all the billable hours (at $290 an hour) reported and multiplied it by 1.5 to get to a final figure of about $6.5 million in legal fees the college must pay on top of the current ruling for $25 million.

Is this common for a judge to do?
  #103  
Old 07-23-2019, 10:13 AM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,408
A trial judge has no power to prevent a party from appealing.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #104  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:08 AM
Falchion is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
He writes "Case closed" and "IT IS SO ORDERED" (yes in call caps) at the bottom.
I have known a number of judges that write "IT IS SO ORDERED" at the end of all orders. Others that will capitalize and/or bold just the word "ORDERED". (Others that do it every time the words Order, Direct, etc. are used in the opinion). I don't think that's particularly remarkable.

I don't know if "case closed" is common in a final order, but it wouldn't shock me. Especially because a fee petition tends to come after judgment is entered (which would usually close the case for appellate purposes).


Edit: I skimmed the order. It strikes me as entirely unremarkable in tone and content and a fairly ordinary application of the law on "reasonable" fee calculations, except that I don't really understand the "multiplier" thing, which appears to just be part of Ohio law.

Last edited by Falchion; 07-23-2019 at 11:11 AM.
  #105  
Old 07-24-2019, 03:12 AM
dba Fred is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,077
To pay the $31.5 million judgement, Oberlin College could increase its student activity fee by $11142.55 for 1 year. Or tap its endowment of $887.4 million.

1. Judgement: Post 102
2. Enrollment: https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges...n-college-3086
3. Endowment: https://www.oberlin.edu/investment/assets
  #106  
Old 07-24-2019, 04:57 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Thank you for posting this and I hope everyone reads the attached judges ruling. In it he judge makes it damn clear the case is closed and the college needs to stop the legal wrangling, appeal crap, and the "This isn't over!" attitude and shut up/pay up. He writes "Case closed" and "IT IS SO ORDERED" (yes in call caps) at the bottom.

Also in awarding legal fees he took all the billable hours (at $290 an hour) reported and multiplied it by 1.5 to get to a final figure of about $6.5 million in legal fees the college must pay on top of the current ruling for $25 million.

Is this common for a judge to do?
I'm with the others. That seems to be a typical ruling. The school is free to appeal like any other litigant if it, through consultation with its attorneys, believes that the judge has made an error of law and believes that it is beneficial to pursue the matter further.
  #107  
Old 07-24-2019, 10:16 AM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,408

Oberlin college and free speech debate


Quote:
Originally Posted by dba Fred View Post
To pay the $31.5 million judgement, Oberlin College could increase its student activity fee by $11142.55 for 1 year. Or tap its endowment of $887.4 million.




Not necessarily. Endowment funds are often under trust conditions, depending on the wishes of the donors. If I donate a million dollars (like I have that kind of cash) for the purpose of assisting students from Canada who attend Oberlin, that's the only way the college can use that money. They'd be in breach of trust if they used it to pay the court judgment.

So it depends how much of the endowments are available for general operating expenses, without restrictions.

Nobody generally donates money to the "Oberlin Litigation Contingency Fund." What, I get my name acknowledged on the cheque to the plaintiffs?

I want to see the "Northern Piper Canada House" on campus, dammit!

__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."

Last edited by Northern Piper; 07-24-2019 at 10:19 AM.
  #108  
Old 07-24-2019, 11:49 AM
Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 31,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Nobody generally donates money to the "Oberlin Litigation Contingency Fund."
Oberlin (based on a recent statement by its new president) is arguing that this is a free speech issue, overlooking the defamation aspect and concentrating on stirring up outrage over the idea that Bad People are rejoicing over the verdict.

If enough people buy into that argument, they might be willing to donate to an Oberlin Defense Fund, though it's hard to imagine raising more than a fraction of the $31.5 million that way.
  #109  
Old 07-24-2019, 05:54 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Not necessarily. Endowment funds are often under trust conditions, depending on the wishes of the donors. If I donate a million dollars (like I have that kind of cash) for the purpose of assisting students from Canada who attend Oberlin, that's the only way the college can use that money. They'd be in breach of trust if they used it to pay the court judgment.

So it depends how much of the endowments are available for general operating expenses, without restrictions.


Now wait, those funds are sitting in interest bearing accounts arent they? So cant they use the interest those funds build up?
  #110  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:21 PM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,408

Oberlin college and free speech debate


Depends on the terms of the donation.

Some charitable donors might donate large sums, on condition that the principal is invested and only the interest can be used for the purpose of the donation. That interest can't be diverted to another purpose without being in breach of the trust terms.

Other donors may donate a sum, and say that the College can use both principal and interest for the purpose of the trust.

Others might donate for general operations without conditions, so both principal and interest might be available.

It all depends on the terms of each donation: the conditions the donor might impose and the College accepts.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."

Last edited by Northern Piper; 07-24-2019 at 07:22 PM.
  #111  
Old 07-24-2019, 07:27 PM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,408

Oberlin college and free speech debate


Quote:
Originally Posted by Falchion View Post

Edit: I skimmed the order. It strikes me as entirely unremarkable in tone and content and a fairly ordinary application of the law on "reasonable" fee calculations, except that I don't really understand the "multiplier" thing, which appears to just be part of Ohio law.


I've seen multipliers used in Canadian costs orders. There's always a tariff of costs for each step in the litigation, but a judge might decide that the tariff isn't a sufficient way to gauge the legal expenses in complex litigation. In those cases the judge might add up the tariff amount and then apply a multiplier to reach a more accurate total for the costs incurred by the litigant.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."

Last edited by Northern Piper; 07-24-2019 at 07:28 PM.
  #112  
Old 07-25-2019, 05:18 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Are there additional court costs and fees associated with doing an appeal?

So do the people get their money if there is an appeal or do they have to wait till thats all settled?
  #113  
Old 07-25-2019, 05:36 PM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 28,117
Oberlin has asked for a delay in payment, but tomget it they have to post a $36 million bond.
  #114  
Old 07-25-2019, 06:24 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
Oberlin has asked for a delay in payment, but tomget it they have to post a $36 million bond.
I've always thought that was silly in civil cases: "Judge I don't have $2,000 right now, can you give me a little more time?" "Sure, just post a $4,000 cash bond and we'll set you right up."

  #115  
Old 07-25-2019, 06:26 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Are there additional court costs and fees associated with doing an appeal?

So do the people get their money if there is an appeal or do they have to wait till thats all settled?
1) The court costs and fees are pretty minor. A few hundred bucks. You also have to pay your attorneys to prosecute the appeal.

2) As mentioned in Sam Stone's and my post above, you have to post an appeal bond with the court to keep the judgment from being executed, which will likely be impossible in this case.

If the college doesn't pay, the grocer can show up with the sheriff and start seizing bank accounts, cash from the til, dorm rooms, etc. Not joking.
  #116  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:38 PM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,408
Cost of the transcript would likely be pretty high though, wouldn't it? That's a big part of the cost of a civil appeal in Canada - the appellant has to pay to have the transcript prepared. For a lengthy trial, that can be a big chunk of change.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #117  
Old 07-25-2019, 10:35 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Well I would think by now they would have accountants going over the books and looking to find a way to pay for this. There has to be at least SOME of their endowment they can use. And I'm guessing they will either have to make some cuts or maybe sell something or tack on a bit to tuition.

I know the catholic church had to work hard to pay off settlements including selling church property and closing some programs.
  #118  
Old 07-25-2019, 10:43 PM
Sam Stone is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 28,117
Knowing the way colleges roll these days, they'll probably come up with the money by jacking up student fees and laying off teaching staff. The administrators who caused this will be totally safe.
  #119  
Old 07-26-2019, 03:27 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Cost of the transcript would likely be pretty high though, wouldn't it? That's a big part of the cost of a civil appeal in Canada - the appellant has to pay to have the transcript prepared. For a lengthy trial, that can be a big chunk of change.
Well, yeah, in the thousands of dollars. I forgot that one. But for a college, that's not a dent in the budget.
  #120  
Old 07-26-2019, 07:12 AM
Darren Garrison's Avatar
Darren Garrison is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 11,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Stone View Post
Knowing the way colleges roll these days, they'll probably come up with the money by jacking up student fees and laying off teaching staff. The administrators who caused this will be totally safe.
They have already been laying off staff (and freezing salaries) because of falling admissions.
  #121  
Old 07-26-2019, 04:16 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Can courts set a time limit on when they have to start paying?

As someone said above it would be funny if a sheriff came in and started seizing things. I'd bet the college president is provided a vehicle and it would be great to see that towed away.
  #122  
Old 07-28-2019, 01:11 PM
Magiver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dayton Ohio USA
Posts: 28,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
They still dont get what they did was wrong.

Here is a video of the college president on CBS News.

Just start counting all the things the pres left out and she STILL doesnt think the college did anything wrong or the Gibsons bakery was hurt. Also notice how the CBS interviewer only asks lowball, easy questions and doesnt challenge her. Talk about the press watering this all down.
A ranking member of the college was at the protest with a bullhorn in possession of the flyers and telling students where to go to make more. This does not support their reason given for being there. They said they were there because they were “looking after” the students. I don't understand how the Dean can say they were "above it". They weren’t above it. They WERE it. It was a sanctioned event.

Since they’re giving out credit for this I’d like to know how many things I need to steal from Oberlin College to get my Masters. I’ll make sure to self report it to the college and not the police per their request. And it can be an honorary degree. I’ll just sell the stolen items for income. My thesis will be students running (ruining?) colleges.

For the record, it was never about free speech. It was about libel. And that's not free. You have to pay for it. It would have cost them nothing to publicly admit they were wrong.
  #123  
Old 07-29-2019, 07:48 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
On top of this - what does it teach the students? How will they describe the whole thing on a job application?

I mean at my work when we apply to a job they ask for an example of how we dealt with a particular issue. They prefer we use the "STAR" format. STAR meaning Situation, Task, Action, Result.

So the "Situation" would be written here as "Students complained of being racially profiled by Gibson's bakery".

The "Task" would be something like "Students wanted to 1. get the bakery to admit being racist and change or 2. wanted the bakery shut down."

Now on "Action" , The action by the students was to immediately organize a protest and hand out fliers around the business labeling them "racist" and asking people to shop somewhere else. Also was to pressure the college to cut business ties to the bakery, to put up a large sign in the student union calling the business racist, and to tell prospective students and campus visitors about the bakery. College administration supported this with rides, letting them out of class, letting them print fliers for free, free food, cutting contracts with the bakery, allowing fliers to be handed out on college property, and staff stood by encouraging them and helping pass out fliers.

What was the "Result"? Well nothing good. The business never changed, no proof of racism was found by police, and ultimately the college got a bad name and was sued millions by the bakery.

Now I think the adults on this board can see the first issue was a need of a better "Task". They should have first had launched an investigation and talked with the bakery. They didnt. if they had they would have found out yes, the guy WAS caught shoplifting and further, they had no real history of racism. if the whole thing would have stopped there, no problem. Lessons learned.

So the students sadly didnt learn anything good. I'm not sure if the student senate or even the college itself even issued an apology even though most of the people involved had either graduated or left the college. There whole thing now is to just change the discussion and refuse to take blame.

How will these students who were involved now put this on their resume?
  #124  
Old 07-29-2019, 08:28 AM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,298
I'd love for you to apply your STAR criteria to the Trump Administration sometime, but that's for another thread.
  #125  
Old 07-29-2019, 09:19 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren Garrison View Post
They have already been laying off staff (and freezing salaries) because of falling admissions.
It is a bit of a messy circumstance. The college has been in a precarious financial place and the extreme magnitude of this fine could trigger its death spiral. The town’s economy is built around its eponymous college. College folds?

It’s a nice town and a good school. One my kids went there as a transfer. It is a sad thing to see happen to both.
  #126  
Old 07-29-2019, 09:42 AM
Ravenman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 26,298
But it is also clear that there is a very significant "college versus townie" divide there. The county overall was basically split right down the middle in Trump/Clinton, and I understand through the rumor mill that the plaintiff's attorney focused heavily on the themes that the OP and Shodan have talked around, namely, "Fuck those liberals" in their arguments to the jury.
  #127  
Old 07-29-2019, 07:29 PM
Magiver is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Dayton Ohio USA
Posts: 28,460
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
But it is also clear that there is a very significant "college versus townie" divide there. The county overall was basically split right down the middle in Trump/Clinton, and I understand through the rumor mill that the plaintiff's attorney focused heavily on the themes that the OP and Shodan have talked around, namely, "Fuck those liberals" in their arguments to the jury.
This post makes no sense at all.

Shodan said: “Oberlin seems to suffer from the common desire to make "free speech" mean "speech that is free from consequence". That's hardly limited to the left.”

He went out of his way not to say what you’ve accused him of.

You on the other hand dragged Trump into a discussion that has nothing to do with him and then went on to accuse others of something without evidence. You're doing exactly what Oberlin did and make accusations based on a rumor mill. If anyone is flinging political cow patties it’s you. You're engaging in mob mentality. This is how people get hurt.

You owe Shodan an apology.
  #128  
Old 07-30-2019, 06:36 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSeid View Post
It is a bit of a messy circumstance. The college has been in a precarious financial place and the extreme magnitude of this fine could trigger its death spiral. The town’s economy is built around its eponymous college. College folds?

It’s a nice town and a good school. One my kids went there as a transfer. It is a sad thing to see happen to both.
Maybe in years back the town needed the college but from I read the area has developed as a suburb of Cleveland and with a diverse economy that isnt so centered around Oberlin College.

Interestingly HERE is an article on the large number of colleges which have either closed or had to consolidate since 2016. However I noticed most of them have fewer than 1,000 students. Oberlin has around 2,700.

I doubt the college itself will close but they will have to restructure. That might mean eliminating some on-campus programs or creating satellite campuses.

Thing is if the students dont go to the college, then the college will have to go to the students. Around here in Overland Park, a Kansas City suburb, several small colleges have opened satellite campuses here for popular programs such as in business or education where you can get your Masters.

And lets face it. Fewer and fewer students are wanting to go to a small town to a small college.
  #129  
Old 07-30-2019, 06:52 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,338
No, the economy there is pretty much anchored by the college. It is a town of just over 8000. Not suburban Cleveland.
  #130  
Old 07-30-2019, 07:27 AM
Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 31,882
Oberlin is considered part of the Greater Cleveland area and there likely are residents who commute to jobs in Cleveland or the suburbs (Cleveland itself is a 45 minute drive).

Not that there's a surfeit of jobs outside town to make up for potential loss of the college. But I suspect the school will survive quite awhile, especially if administrators succeed in portraying themselves as victims of evil right-wingers and ramp up donations and admissions as a result.
  #131  
Old 07-30-2019, 09:28 AM
DSeid's Avatar
DSeid is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 22,338
The data. https://datausa.io/profile/geo/oberlin-oh/

Really no. There are very few who commute to Cleveland and most jobs are directly or indirectly college related.
  #132  
Old 07-30-2019, 02:47 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
But it is also clear that there is a very significant "college versus townie" divide there. The county overall was basically split right down the middle in Trump/Clinton, and I understand through the rumor mill that the plaintiff's attorney focused heavily on the themes that the OP and Shodan have talked around, namely, "Fuck those liberals" in their arguments to the jury.
Well what college doesnt have "town vs gown" problems in some shape or form?

I dont think "F those libs" would be enough to persuade 12 random people to award all that money. 12 "random" people from the area whom I'm sure have had dealings with both Gibsons Bakery and the college. What was on trial was did the college encourage and help the students slander and libel Gibsons Bakery and its owners and the jury said yes it did. Evidence was presented, was discussed, and was believed.

And yes, it helped that the 90 year old well respected owner sat everyday in the courtroom showing injuries sustained related to the incident.

Look, it has nothing to do with Trump, Clinton, or the man in the moon. Why cant you admit the college screwed up by first backing and encouraging the protests and then did nothing to apologize or work out a deal?

They were arrogant idiots and messed up to the tune of $33 million.
  #133  
Old 07-31-2019, 06:59 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Ok, I read that they had to post a $36 million bond while awaiting the appeal.

THIS article said it was posted by an insurance company in behalf of the college.

Would the college have to pay interest or pay a fee for this bond?
  #134  
Old 07-31-2019, 07:18 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Another update: This article in the Wall Street Journal was written by a former Oberlin college president who was president back in the 90's.

Now it might not let you read the article without a subscription but the former president starts out the article quoting the work of the colleges founder who emphasized looking at issues from both sides. He goes on to say that back during his tenure it was part of the job of the administration to investigate and report back on issues and conflicts with the local community. He said many times charges of say racial profiling were founded and others not but the persons involved always learned from the process. He says he was disappointed such a process didnt take place.

This makes so much sense. I know military bases have officers whos job is to be a liaison with the community.

Do most colleges have such a system?
  #135  
Old 07-31-2019, 09:37 AM
Velocity is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 14,917
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
But it is also clear that there is a very significant "college versus townie" divide there. The county overall was basically split right down the middle in Trump/Clinton, and I understand through the rumor mill that the plaintiff's attorney focused heavily on the themes that the OP and Shodan have talked around, namely, "Fuck those liberals" in their arguments to the jury.
This doesn't make sense. If the town was split down the middle in Trump/Clinton, and the jury was representative of the town, then there would be half of the jury to which "Fuck the libs" wouldn't be a persuasive argument.
  #136  
Old 07-31-2019, 10:10 AM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Another update: This article in the Wall Street Journal was written by a former Oberlin college president who was president back in the 90's.

Now it might not let you read the article without a subscription but the former president starts out the article quoting the work of the colleges founder who emphasized looking at issues from both sides. He goes on to say that back during his tenure it was part of the job of the administration to investigate and report back on issues and conflicts with the local community. He said many times charges of say racial profiling were founded and others not but the persons involved always learned from the process. He says he was disappointed such a process didnt take place.

This makes so much sense. I know military bases have officers whos job is to be a liaison with the community.

Do most colleges have such a system?
That was the 90s. Things have changed. Today the mere accusation of racism or misogyny means that the rails have come off. You must either join the mob or be lumped in with the other side. We all know where colleges stand on that.

Do you want to be the administrator who tells the student group to calm down and let the investigation run its course? If you do, you will read the headline in the student newspaper the next day blaring "[Administrator] sides with racist grocer. Hates blacks." There will be demands for your firing.

The college fell into this trap and it cost them. I just wish some of the students had to pay as well.
  #137  
Old 07-31-2019, 10:38 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
This doesn't make sense. If the town was split down the middle in Trump/Clinton, and the jury was representative of the town, then there would be half of the jury to which "Fuck the libs" wouldn't be a persuasive argument.
Exactly what I said above. The jury listened to the evidence and the evidence was believed.
  #138  
Old 07-31-2019, 10:43 AM
Kearsen1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Austin
Posts: 201
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
That was the 90s. Things have changed. Today the mere accusation of racism or misogyny means that the rails have come off. You must either join the mob or be lumped in with the other side. We all know where colleges stand on that.

Do you want to be the administrator who tells the student group to calm down and let the investigation run its course? If you do, you will read the headline in the student newspaper the next day blaring "[Administrator] sides with racist grocer. Hates blacks." There will be demands for your firing.

The college fell into this trap and it cost them. I just wish some of the students had to pay as well.
The students will likely pay, with increased tuition costs.
  #139  
Old 07-31-2019, 10:55 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
That was the 90s. Things have changed. Today the mere accusation of racism or misogyny means that the rails have come off. You must either join the mob or be lumped in with the other side. We all know where colleges stand on that.

Do you want to be the administrator who tells the student group to calm down and let the investigation run its course? If you do, you will read the headline in the student newspaper the next day blaring "[Administrator] sides with racist grocer. Hates blacks." There will be demands for your firing.

The college fell into this trap and it cost them. I just wish some of the students had to pay as well.
Well thats the big question now is will colleges be FORCED to put the brakes on student protests?

Yeah any administrator who says "stop, let me investigate first" will probably get tarred and feathered, at first. But I think over time this will go down and students will learn to follow the rules. IF the college makes the rules clear. Colleges have been learning to deal with crazy students for decades.

And they better. After this ruling I think we will see more people suing colleges and student groups (which are college sponsored) for slander. The administrator most involved and who was down there with the protesters with the bullhorn admitted it was her JOB to follow college guidelines to ensure safety so even here their was some measure of oversight. She just did a crappy job of it.

Now sure, some students acting totally as independent and normal citizens can protest and hand out flyers and can still be held liable, but unless the college has investigated the situation and can totally endorse anything the protesters do they need to stay far away from it.

As for the students involved 3 years ago being forced to pay - isnt it interesting we arent hearing from them even those who graduated? Are they now trying to run and hide?
  #140  
Old 07-31-2019, 11:29 AM
Jackmannii is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: the extreme center
Posts: 31,882
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well thats the big question now is will colleges be FORCED to put the brakes on student protests?
No, it'll probably be enough if administrators learn not to facilitate defamation.
  #141  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:13 PM
UltraVires is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bridgeport, WV, US
Posts: 15,782
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well thats the big question now is will colleges be FORCED to put the brakes on student protests?

Yeah any administrator who says "stop, let me investigate first" will probably get tarred and feathered, at first. But I think over time this will go down and students will learn to follow the rules. IF the college makes the rules clear. Colleges have been learning to deal with crazy students for decades.

And they better. After this ruling I think we will see more people suing colleges and student groups (which are college sponsored) for slander. The administrator most involved and who was down there with the protesters with the bullhorn admitted it was her JOB to follow college guidelines to ensure safety so even here their was some measure of oversight. She just did a crappy job of it.

Now sure, some students acting totally as independent and normal citizens can protest and hand out flyers and can still be held liable, but unless the college has investigated the situation and can totally endorse anything the protesters do they need to stay far away from it.

As for the students involved 3 years ago being forced to pay - isnt it interesting we arent hearing from them even those who graduated? Are they now trying to run and hide?
Colleges will be fine so long as they don't support the protests. The fact that the students protested is not what made the college liable. It was its support.

I don't know why a college administrator had a job to follow students to "ensure safety." A college's job is to educate students. If a group of them want to go heckle a Trump rally or show support for Trump, then that is an outside matter which, IMHO, concerns the college not one whit.

The students are adults. They can be as safe or unsafe as any other group of adults who are doing what they are doing.

ETA: You said college groups which I don't think is correct. If the Oberlin College Young Republicans started throwing punches at a Bernie rally, I cannot think of a theory where the college would be responsible for that, again unless they gave them boxing gloves.

Last edited by UltraVires; 07-31-2019 at 12:15 PM.
  #142  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:29 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by UltraVires View Post
Colleges will be fine so long as they don't support the protests. The fact that the students protested is not what made the college liable. It was its support.

I don't know why a college administrator had a job to follow students to "ensure safety." A college's job is to educate students. If a group of them want to go heckle a Trump rally or show support for Trump, then that is an outside matter which, IMHO, concerns the college not one whit.

The students are adults. They can be as safe or unsafe as any other group of adults who are doing what they are doing.

ETA: You said college groups which I don't think is correct. If the Oberlin College Young Republicans started throwing punches at a Bernie rally, I cannot think of a theory where the college would be responsible for that, again unless they gave them boxing gloves.
Thats hard to say. Many have said that colleges act as de facto parents. On many colleges different groups might be college sponsored so they are kind of an extension of the college. Like in your example if the college republicans are a recognized group that receives student funding (from fees) and meets on college property and advertises thru college media - the college then might be liable. Sort of like how many colleges have limited authority over college fraternities.

Now if say just some students who just happened to go to the college protested, then your right it seems its out of the colleges hands. It doesnt mean though that individuals could not be held liable for there actions.
  #143  
Old 08-02-2019, 01:44 AM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,983
Oberlin College ordered to post $36 million bond to delay Gibson’s Bakery collection of Judgment

Quote:
Clearly, Ohio Civ. R. 62(A) gives the Court great discretion in determining what conditions, if any, are proper to grant a stay of execution of the judgment and to afford security to the Plaintiffs. After considering the Parties respective briefs, the attached exhibits, and applicable precedent the Court hereby orders that the judgment is stayed, as of the date of this entry, subject to the following conditions:

1) Within seven (7) days, Defendants shall post a bond in the amount of $36,367,711.56. Failure to timely post the bond shall result in the stay being terminated. Timely posting of the bond shall stay the judgment until August 19, 2019;

2) If Defendants timely file their post-trial motions on or before August 19, 2019, the stay shall be extended until September 9, 2019. Plaintiffs shall have fourteen (14) days to respond to any post-trial motions and no reply briefs shall be accepted. The Court will rule on Defendants’ motions by September 9, 2019. See Local Rule 9(/1).
  #144  
Old 08-02-2019, 07:52 AM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,408
What are "post-trial" motions? Is this still in the trial court ?
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #145  
Old 08-02-2019, 09:13 AM
HurricaneDitka is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 13,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
What are "post-trial" motions? Is this still in the trial court ?
IANAL, but I believe the judge's order is referring to an appeal by Oberlin College.
  #146  
Old 08-02-2019, 12:41 PM
chappachula is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,732
a little off topic, but I just have to ask:
why is the bond set at precisely $36,367,711.56 ?

That extra 56 cents is really going to make a difference.

Last edited by chappachula; 08-02-2019 at 12:41 PM.
  #147  
Old 08-02-2019, 06:19 PM
Northern Piper is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: The snow is gone. For now
Posts: 29,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
IANAL, but I believe the judge's order is referring to an appeal by Oberlin College.


Different from the system I work in, then. Here, once the trial court decision
is rendered, all questions about the appeal are done in the appeal court, not the trial court.
__________________
"I don't like to make plans for the day. If I do, that's when words like 'premeditated' start getting thrown around in the courtroom."
  #148  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:40 AM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Another update. The family is accusing Oberlin college of using delaying tactics with the idea that the 92 year old owner is dying of cancer and wont be around to collect on a judgement. It might also be possibly about Oberlin hoping they can cut a better deal with the heirs.

Article reference ONE from Washington times

Article reference TWO from Legal Insurrection. Right wing site but many references to appropriate Ohio laws.

So if a plaintiff dies while a case in in appeal, would the verdict and money just go away or would it go to the persons heirs?
  #149  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:54 AM
Falchion is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
What are "post-trial" motions? Is this still in the trial court ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
Different from the system I work in, then. Here, once the trial court decision
is rendered, all questions about the appeal are done in the appeal court, not the trial court.
I don't think it refers to an appeal. I don't know about Ohio specifically, but I presume it follows the general rule that the filing of a notice of appeal will generally divest the trial court of jurisdiction.

I think it refers to things like a motion for a new trial; or a motion for judgment notwithstanding the verdict. (See Ohio R. Civ. P. 50(b) ("a party may serve a motion to have the verdict and any judgment entered thereon set aside and to have judgment entered in accordance with the party’s motion."); a motion to set aside the damage award. I don't know if Ohio allows remittitur, but that would be a post-trial motion.

There's a whole pile of stuff that can done between verdict and appeal. They don't have those where you are?

Last edited by Falchion; 08-07-2019 at 11:54 AM.
  #150  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:28 PM
Urbanredneck is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 7,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Falchion View Post
I don't think it refers to an appeal. I don't know about Ohio specifically, but I presume it follows the general rule that the filing of a notice of appeal will generally divest the trial court of jurisdiction.

I think it refers to things like a motion for a new trial; or a motion for judgment notwithstanding the verdict. (See Ohio R. Civ. P. 50(b) ("a party may serve a motion to have the verdict and any judgment entered thereon set aside and to have judgment entered in accordance with the party’s motion."); a motion to set aside the damage award. I don't know if Ohio allows remittitur, but that would be a post-trial motion.

There's a whole pile of stuff that can done between verdict and appeal. They don't have those where you are?
I could be wrong but according to the Legal Insurrection site above I think they said they were hoping for the type of appeal where the earlier decision is thrown out because they can prove the judge did something wrong. A lawyer weighs in and sites Ohio law.

Also the bond that was set. Does that have something like a 5% annual interest?
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:34 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017