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  #151  
Old 08-08-2019, 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Falchion View Post
I think it refers to things like a motion for a new trial; or a motion for judgment notwithstanding the verdict. (See Ohio R. Civ. P. 50(b) ("a party may serve a motion to have the verdict and any judgment entered thereon set aside and to have judgment entered in accordance with the party’s motion."); a motion to set aside the damage award. I don't know if Ohio allows remittitur, but that would be a post-trial motion.

There's a whole pile of stuff that can done between verdict and appeal. They don't have those where you are?

Motion for a new trial would be an appellate remedy, not a trial remedy.

Judgment n.o.v. and remittur both relate to jury verdicts. Civil jury trials are very rare here, so I don't know if we have an equivalent.

What's the rest of the "whole pile of stuff" that is done in the trial court after verdict?
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  #152  
Old 08-08-2019, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I could be wrong but according to the Legal Insurrection site above I think they said they were hoping for the type of appeal where the earlier decision is thrown out because they can prove the judge did something wrong. A lawyer weighs in and sites Ohio law.
There will, almost certainly, be some sort of appeal to an appellate court. I was just trying to address what kind of "post-trial" motions were being referenced in the trial court order.

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Also the bond that was set. Does that have something like a 5% annual interest?
I could be wrong, but I don't think appellate bonds have interest. They exist to ensure to make sure that the losing party below doesn't lose its ability to pay during the appeal. The judgment itself should have interest. The federal rate is (effectively) set by the federal reserve and changes over time. I have no idea how Ohio works.

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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
What's the rest of the "whole pile of stuff" that is done in the trial court after verdict?
Ok, maybe it's a small pile. Routine post trial motions would be motions for a new trial; judgment n.o.v.; remittitur or other damages-related motions; amend or alter the judgment; for additional or altered findings (after a bench trial). I'd put attorneys' fees motions in that category. I don't know if there are many state-specific motions. Most of the motions are pretty pro forma, but they're done to preserve issues for appeal.

Edit: Also, obviously, a stay pending appeal.

Last edited by Falchion; 08-08-2019 at 10:56 AM.
  #153  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:58 AM
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Routine post trial motions would be motions for a new trial;

* that would be appellate relief in our system;

judgment n.o.v.; remittitur or other damages-related motions;

* as mentioned earlier, civil juries are so rare in our system that I don't know if we have these remedies.

amend or alter the judgment;

* very limited power to correct slips or clear errors, but once formal judgment is entered, trial court is functus, and it's an issue for the Court of Appeal


for additional or altered findings (after a bench trial).

* don't think I've ever heard of this, barring clear errors or slips (e.g. a miscalculation in a multiplication, addition, etc )

I'd put attorneys' fees motions in that category.

* costs for us are governed by a tariff of costs in the Rules, but if counsel can't agree on costs, then can apply to the trial judge. Happens in particularly complex trials, in my experience.

Also, obviously, a stay pending appeal.

* stays are normally automatic on filing notice of appeal, but if there's any issue, you apply to a judge of the Court of Appeal in chambers, not to the trial judge.
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  #154  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:06 PM
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So if a plaintiff dies while a case in in appeal, would the verdict and money just go away or would it go to the persons heirs?
The heirs and beneficiaries inherit the lawsuit, I believe. They have to file a notice of death, but I would hope the baker's attorneys would know to do that. So AFACT Oberlin is still on the hook.

Regards,
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  #155  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:45 PM
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Oberlin college and free speech debate


That's the general rule for contracts and torts, but some jurisdictions have a different rule for libel, which is part of the law suit here.

Your reputation is a personal to you, and damage to reputation is therefore also personal. If the plaintiff in a libel suit dies before judgment, the libel claim may also disappear, depending on the law of the province or state.

Different again if the plaintiff in a libel suit dies after trial judgment in their favour. A judgment cristallises the claim into a monetary debt, which would survive death.

So if those sorts of rules apply in Ohio (I have no idea if they do), there might be an issue on appeal. Suppose the grandfather dies while it's under appeal, and the appeal court then allows the appeal, sets aside the original verdict, and sends it back for a new trial. Since a new trial starts from square 1, the grandfather's estate wouldn't be able to maintain the libel action, but could maintain contractual claims, since those are monetary claims, not personal.

All very hypothetical of course, and depends on the law of Ohio, about which I know nothing, do not meant as legal advice.
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Last edited by Northern Piper; 08-08-2019 at 12:46 PM.
  #156  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
That's the general rule for contracts and torts, but some jurisdictions have a different rule for libel, which is part of the law suit here.

Your reputation is a personal to you, and damage to reputation is therefore also personal. If the plaintiff in a libel suit dies before judgment, the libel claim may also disappear, depending on the law of the province or state.

Different again if the plaintiff in a libel suit dies after trial judgment in their favour. A judgment cristallises the claim into a monetary debt, which would survive death.

So if those sorts of rules apply in Ohio (I have no idea if they do), there might be an issue on appeal. Suppose the grandfather dies while it's under appeal, and the appeal court then allows the appeal, sets aside the original verdict, and sends it back for a new trial. Since a new trial starts from square 1, the grandfather's estate wouldn't be able to maintain the libel action, but could maintain contractual claims, since those are monetary claims, not personal.

All very hypothetical of course, and depends on the law of Ohio, about which I know nothing, do not meant as legal advice.
Thanks.

IANAL, and I am glad I am not, because if I was, I might understand this and that would be upsetting to me.

The linked articles mostly mention that Oberlin defamed the bakery, that the bakery is a fifth-generation family-owned business, and refer to "owners" of the bakery. That would seem to imply that even if the grandfather dies, the suit would survive because the business is not solely his, and the defamation was not solely of him.

Regards,
Shodan
  #157  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
The linked articles mostly mention that Oberlin defamed the bakery, that the bakery is a fifth-generation family-owned business, and refer to "owners" of the bakery. That would seem to imply that even if the grandfather dies, the suit would survive because the business is not solely his, and the defamation was not solely of him.
I can't figure out which Gibson is which because I've seen both Allyn and David Gibson referred to as the 90-plus year old owner (and I'm not going to spend much more time looking). But in any event, the plaintiffs were the bakery itself, David Gibson, and Allyn Gibson. According to this site, the jury awarded $3 million to Allyn; $5.8 million to David, and $2.2 million to the bakery.

If (and I don't know this is the case) a defamation action disappears upon the death of the plaintiff and it is David that is sick, then that's a pretty good chuck of the award. Assuming punitive damages are allocated proportionally, it might make a difference.

Edit: Ok, I looked. Under Ohio statute (RC 2311.21), it looks like actions for "libel, slander, malicious prosecution, for a nuisance, or against a judge of a county court for misconduct in office" will "abate by the death of either party."

Last edited by Falchion; 08-08-2019 at 03:02 PM.
  #158  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Falchion View Post
I could be wrong, but I don't think appellate bonds have interest.
I believe you are incorrect in this instance. Most of the articles I've read concerning the bond mention the 36 million as covering the judgement plus three years of interest for the expected appeal period.

Typical cite

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the court granted a stay of execution of the judgment conditioned on Oberlin College posting a bond in an amount just over $36 million, to secure the judgment plus three years of interest covering the anticipated time period of an appeal.
  #159  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Falchion View Post
I can't figure out which Gibson is which because I've seen both Allyn and David Gibson referred to as the 90-plus year old owner (and I'm not going to spend much more time looking). But in any event, the plaintiffs were the bakery itself, David Gibson, and Allyn Gibson. According to this site, the jury awarded $3 million to Allyn; $5.8 million to David, and $2.2 million to the bakery.

If (and I don't know this is the case) a defamation action disappears upon the death of the plaintiff and it is David that is sick, then that's a pretty good chuck of the award. Assuming punitive damages are allocated proportionally, it might make a difference.

Edit: Ok, I looked. Under Ohio statute (RC 2311.21), it looks like actions for "libel, slander, malicious prosecution, for a nuisance, or against a judge of a county court for misconduct in office" will "abate by the death of either party."
Ok, so they very could wait until Davids death and at least be out $5.8 million of the suit.

Also if it does get thrown out and goes back for a new trial the jury wont be influenced by a 90 year old man sitting in the courtroom with a can and neck brace.

Totally legal but doesnt put them in a good light either.
  #160  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Thanks.



IANAL, and I am glad I am not, because if I was, I might understand this and that would be upsetting to me.



The linked articles mostly mention that Oberlin defamed the bakery, that the bakery is a fifth-generation family-owned business, and refer to "owners" of the bakery. That would seem to imply that even if the grandfather dies, the suit would survive because the business is not solely his, and the defamation was not solely of him.



Regards,

Shodan


I haven't been following it closely enough. Was the award for the bakery a defamation claim? Does a corporation under Ohio law have a reputation that is protected by defamation law?
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  #161  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Falchion View Post

If (and I don't know this is the case) a defamation action disappears upon the death of the plaintiff and it is David that is sick, then that's a pretty good chuck of the award. Assuming punitive damages are allocated proportionally, it might make a difference.

Edit: Ok, I looked. Under Ohio statute (RC 2311.21), it looks like actions for "libel, slander, malicious prosecution, for a nuisance, or against a judge of a county court for misconduct in office" will "abate by the death of either party."

But at the moment it's not an action, it's a judgment. That's a debt owing. I wouldn't have thought a judgment for a fixed amount would abate because the plaintiff dies. I would think that only happens if the plaintiff dies and the defendant is successful on appeal, but I don't know anything about Ohio law.
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  #162  
Old 08-08-2019, 07:51 PM
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Ok, so they very could wait until Davids death and at least be out $5.8 million of the suit
Only if they also win the appeal, I think, but I don't know Ohio law.
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  #163  
Old 08-09-2019, 05:48 AM
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Not necessarily. Endowment funds are often under trust conditions, depending on the wishes of the donors. If I donate a million dollars (like I have that kind of cash) for the purpose of assisting students from Canada who attend Oberlin, that's the only way the college can use that money. They'd be in breach of trust if they used it to pay the court judgment.

So it depends how much of the endowments are available for general operating expenses, without restrictions.

Nobody generally donates money to the "Oberlin Litigation Contingency Fund." What, I get my name acknowledged on the cheque to the plaintiffs?

I want to see the "Northern Piper Canada House" on campus, dammit!

As an aside: The Anglican Church here (nsw.aus) had to pay out their trust fund in one case I know of here. The trustees objected, as I think they were legally bound to do, and it went to court, and the court said (as higher courts can) that the terms of the trust were set aside and the trust funds had to go to somebody else.
  #164  
Old 08-09-2019, 09:22 AM
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I believe you are incorrect in this instance. Most of the articles I've read concerning the bond mention the 36 million as covering the judgement plus three years of interest for the expected appeal period.

Typical cite
I may well be wrong (or maybe I misunderstood the question). The judgment itself is subject to interest. And I read that cite as saying that the bond was set an amount that is supposed to provide for the fact that, while the case is on appeal, the total amount owed will increase.

But I understood the question as being whether the bond itself would somehow be subject to interest (I guess like using a loan or something). I guess my point is that the total amount owed should not change as a result of the appeal bond (but will change, due to interest, because of the delayed payment).

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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
But at the moment it's not an action, it's a judgment. That's a debt owing. I wouldn't have thought a judgment for a fixed amount would abate because the plaintiff dies. I would think that only happens if the plaintiff dies and the defendant is successful on appeal, but I don't know anything about Ohio law.
Good point. I don't know. I know that a criminal proceeding is generally void ab initio if the defendant dies while the case is on direct appeal (and I think that's what I was thinking of). I don't know what happens in a civil case.
  #165  
Old 08-10-2019, 01:15 PM
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So (replying to posts above): If the two men die, Oberlin is off the hook for several million, but still has to pay the other penalties, right? So by waiting out the deaths, they can reduce their financial burden, but not escape it entirely?

Last edited by Velocity; 08-10-2019 at 01:17 PM.
  #166  
Old 08-18-2019, 05:13 PM
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New story.
  #167  
Old 08-18-2019, 09:52 PM
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"How many cats do you own?" should be a standard interview question for all institutions of learning.

The "I need some muscle over here lady" from Missouri? I've got the over on six.

Last edited by Dale Sams; 08-18-2019 at 09:52 PM.
  #168  
Old 08-19-2019, 02:53 AM
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Somewhat related, Vlogger Benjamin Boyce has started to put up a series of videos covering the events at Evergreen college a few years ago, many parallels between them, and a look at how cultish the environment can become.
  #169  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:30 AM
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Did the jury not put in a deadline of sorts, and that is why Oberlin can try to wait out David's death?
  #170  
Old 08-19-2019, 08:42 AM
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Generally, there are three types of losing defendants:

1. Those who are genuinely sorry,

2. Those who are only sorry that they got caught,

3. Those who aren't even sorry at all.



Oberlin seems to be placing itself squarely in Category 3#.
  #171  
Old 08-21-2019, 03:28 PM
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Did Oberlin meet the Aug. 19 deadline? If so, what was their response?


Now that the August 19 deadline for filing post-trial motions or an appeal has come and gone, does anyone know how or if Oberlin has responded?
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