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Old 06-26-2019, 01:48 PM
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Biden + Buttigieg?


Wouldn't Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg be a great ticket? It would provide both continuity with a well-liked past president and freshness. It would be old + young, top Washington politician + small town mayor, black/blue collar + cosmopolitan appeal, rough + polished. I'm sure there are more ways in which they can be complementary.

Warren as Secretary of Health and Human Services with responsibilities for financial and lobbying legislation would be even better.
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Old 06-26-2019, 01:51 PM
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Only if Biden is the VP.
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Old 06-26-2019, 02:05 PM
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It's fine, I'll vote for that ticket in the general, but c'mon.

We Democrats can do better on the issues and do better on maximizing turnout -- and turnout will be key, because the GOP is pretty explicitly committed to preventing Democrats from voting.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:16 PM
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IMHO Buttigieg would probably not be the best choice for Biden. Other than his being gay, ISTM that Buttigieg doesn’t really appeal to the more liberal Democrats. Anecdotally it also seems to me that some feminists have Buttigieg very low on their list of the Democratic candidates. Based on personal interactions ISTM there is a belief that when he had his bounce back in March that the media should have been paying more attention to some of the lesser known female candidates rather than “fawning over” Buttigieg. I think that if Biden goes with Buttigieg it’s likely that some far left women will stay home.

ETA. It’s ironic, but is seems some women, at least WRT Buttigieg, have reached the point where they think bigotry against women is a bigger problem than bigotry against gay men, and that it would be more “progressive” to elect a woman than a gay man.

Last edited by FlikTheBlue; 06-26-2019 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
Wouldn't Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg be a great ticket?
Maybe, but it would lose.

Kamala Harris or even Amy Klobuchar has to be on any Democratic ticket. Elizabeth Warren, brilliant warrior though she is, would be a Hillary-like target. And would lose.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:38 PM
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A gay man is not going to be elected POTUS or VPOTUS in 2020.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:43 PM
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Please god, no!
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:46 PM
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I think that if Biden goes with Buttigieg it’s likely that some far left women will stay home.
They'd stay home because they are so much happier with Trump than with Buttigieg? Really?

And don't forget Biden being all handsy with numerous women. I doubt that endears him to feminists. I cannot imagine feminists liking Biden more than most any other democratic candidate.
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Old 06-26-2019, 03:47 PM
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A gay man is not going to be elected POTUS or VPOTUS in 2020.
I could see maybe a gay VP but in this case he also has the problem of being very young and his current job as mayor of a smaller city is not that impressive. He is probably a lock as a cabinet member if a Dem wins in 2020.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:39 PM
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They'd stay home because they are so much happier with Trump than with Buttigieg? Really?

And don't forget Biden being all handsy with numerous women. I doubt that endears him to feminists. I cannot imagine feminists liking Biden more than most any other democratic candidate.
That’s kind of my point. Some of them think Biden is not much better than Trump with regards to women, for a number of reasons. Biden going with Buttigieg instead of Harris, Klobuchar, Stacey Abrams, or another woman, could be seen by those voters as Buttigieg being selected due to male privilege.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:54 PM
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...this guy partnered with the guy who demanded an apology from Cory Booker?

Sure, that will go well.
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Old 06-26-2019, 04:56 PM
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If Biden gets the nom I think his VP will be Julian Castro
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:25 PM
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I'd rather Warren and Buttigieg, but I'll vote for whichever democrat gets the nomination.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:39 PM
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That’s kind of my point. Some of them think Biden is not much better than Trump with regards to women, for a number of reasons. Biden going with Buttigieg instead of Harris, Klobuchar, Stacey Abrams, or another woman, could be seen by those voters as Buttigieg being selected due to male privilege.
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Maybe, but it would lose.

Kamala Harris or even Amy Klobuchar has to be on any Democratic ticket. Elizabeth Warren, brilliant warrior though she is, would be a Hillary-like target. And would lose.

If there weren't a woman in the ticket, would female voters stay home for four more years of pussy grabbing?

Some people can be awfully difficult to please when they discuss politics on Internet but that doesn't mean it's representative of the wider population or that they'd stay on their high horse when it's time to actually make a decision.

In the same way, can someone tell me in which swing state(s) the black vote would be critical? Or is it a general sense that courting black voters is important otherwise they'll...what? vote Republican?

Is it about motivating people to vote? Is there data that suggests that people are little motivated to dump Trump the fuck out of the office he's been vomiting and shitting all over?



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I'd rather Warren and Buttigieg, but I'll vote for whichever democrat gets the nomination.
I like Warren from what I know of her but she's a wonk which makes her well-suited for a cabinet or adviser post. There's nothing wrong with being a Kissinger or Albright.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-26-2019 at 06:41 PM.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:48 PM
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I felt the same way about Warren last time, but she's winning me over. I like that she "has a plan for that."

And Flik, I'm a very liberal woman and Pete is actually my favorite.
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:51 PM
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In the same way, can someone tell me in which swing state(s) the black vote would be critical? Or is it a general sense that courting black voters is important otherwise they'll...what? vote Republican?
...wow.

94% of black women who voted voted for Clinton last election. 82% of black men.

You've got their vote. You know you've got their vote. Their lives are literally on the line at the next election. They will vote Democrat no matter who it is you put on the ticket.

This isn't about "maybe they will vote Republican." This isn't about whether or not the black vote will be "critical." This isn't even really about Mayor Pete or Joe Biden.

Its about you taking their vote for granted. Its about giving them some god-damn respect. You would be happy to throw the most loyal Democrat voters under the bus for what you consider "cosmopolitan appeal."
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Old 06-26-2019, 06:53 PM
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If the Democratic nominee for president is a white male, the VP nominee will be a woman, most likely a woman of color. No way two white guys can generate the turnout they need to win.
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Old 06-26-2019, 07:09 PM
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A female of color with a track record of being more to his political left: the name Kamala Harris jumps out right away, but he may prefer someone who hasn't campaigned against him.
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:11 PM
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I felt the same way about Warren last time, but she's winning me over. I like that she "has a plan for that."

And Flik, I'm a very liberal woman and Pete is actually my favorite.
Hopefully you're right. Warren + Buttigieg sounds like it would be great too if it succeeds. It's that last part I'm worried about and where I think Biden would be better.

What cunning plan(s) do you think she has for the fact that Trump & Fox will relentlessly compare her to Hilary Clinton, notably by showing side-to-side pictures of them looking nearly identical? How do you think she's going to handle all the trash that will be thrown at her? How will she convince simpletons who decide based on who they'd like to have a beer with or want a "hip shooter who says it like it is"? If she can handle that then I'm eager to see her rabbits run. However, "if" is the most critical word in the English language.

What do you like about Pete?


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...wow.

94% of black women who voted voted for Clinton last election. 82% of black men.

You've got their vote. You know you've got their vote. Their lives are literally on the line at the next election. They will vote Democrat no matter who it is you put on the ticket.

This isn't about "maybe they will vote Republican." This isn't about whether or not the black vote will be "critical." This isn't even really about Mayor Pete or Joe Biden.

Its about you taking their vote for granted. Its about giving them some god-damn respect. You would be happy to throw the most loyal Democrat voters under the bus for what you consider "cosmopolitan appeal."
Leadership of the most powerful country in the world isn't about giving anyone respect, honor, dignity or any of those mushy-headed ambiguous terms.

But hey, engaging in grand-standing worked well last time, didn't it?

FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!
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Old 06-26-2019, 08:39 PM
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Leadership of the most powerful country in the world isn't about giving anyone respect, honor, dignity or any of those mushy-headed ambiguous terms.
...listening to black and marginalised people and understanding what they want from a candidate is not "mushy headed."

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But hey, engaging in grand-standing worked well last time, didn't it?
Clinton didn't lose because of "grand-standing." Listening to the opinions of black people is not "grand-standing."

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FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!
Repeating nonsensical rhetoric does you no favours. Its become increasingly common that people think they've figured out the "secret" to winning the next election. The reality though is that it probably won't come down to the candidate. It will come down to election security, it will come down to voter supression, a few tightly contested electorates. It will come down to who can win the propaganda war.

"FOUR MORE YEARS" is not an argument. I personally think that a Biden/Buttigieg would result in a Trump victory: but I'm not yelling in this thread "FOUR MORE YEARS!" as if that means anything.
  #21  
Old 06-26-2019, 08:58 PM
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I personally think that a Biden/Buttigieg would result in a Trump victory:...
Biden + anyone has a good chance of resulting in a Trump victory. Biden is Clinton warmed over. They are cut from the same cloth and he is maybe less inspiring than she was.

Biden, the guy who is pals with segregationists and tells a rich audience "nothing would fundamentally change" is who black voters want? Who progressives want?

He is what aging, white boomers on this board want and that is about it.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:00 PM
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...listening to black and marginalised people and understanding what they want from a candidate is not "mushy headed."



Clinton didn't lose because of "grand-standing." Listening to the opinions of black people is not "grand-standing."
You said "some god-damn respect". If you meant listening to the opinions of black people and marginalised people and understanding what they want from a candidate, you should have said that. Am I supposed to read your mind through the Internet and understand that you meant that by "some god-damn respect"?

You can quite well listen to them and understand what they want without putting a black or female candidate on the ticket. Just like you can do the same with poor people without putting a poor person on the ticket. Or handicapped people or religious minorities or the elderly or the sick or any number of people who we should listen to and understand.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:14 PM
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You said "some god-damn respect". If you meant listening to the opinions of black people and marginalised people and understanding what they want from a candidate, you should have said that. Am I supposed to read your mind through the Internet and understand that you meant that by "some god-damn respect"?
...of course you need to give them some god-damn respect. They were bought to your country in chains. They knew what was coming with Trump and they overwhelmingly voted against him at the last election. They are the base of the Democrats. They have always supported whomever the Democrats have run. Why would you not give them your respect?

And part of respect is listening to what they have to say.

Quote:
You can quite well listen to them and understand what they want without putting a black or female candidate on the ticket.
Did I say you needed to put a black or female candidate on the ticket?

Quote:
Just like you can do the same with poor people without putting a poor person on the ticket. Or handicapped people or religious minorities or the elderly or the sick or any number of people who we should listen to and understand.
Strawman.
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Old 06-26-2019, 09:56 PM
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I hope Warren can just ignore all the shit that Fox and Trump throw at her and stay on topic. We'll see. It's early days.

Pete is smart. Really smart. I like how he answers questions, even the questions meant to bait him. He just sort of ignores all the junk and gets to the meat of the question.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:02 PM
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Did I say you needed to put a black or female candidate on the ticket?
No. However, the comment you replied to was my own reply to Flik & Karl talking about how a woman, especially Harris, was needed on the ticket.


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...of course you need to give them some god-damn respect. They were bought to your country in chains.
I'm Canadian. They brought themselves to my country to escape chains.


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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
...of course you need to give them some god-damn respect. They were bought to your country in chains. They knew what was coming with Trump and they overwhelmingly voted against him at the last election. They are the base of the Democrats. They have always supported whomever the Democrats have run. Why would you not give them your respect?

And part of respect is listening to what they have to say.
Listening is fine. Maybe put several of them in Cabinet posts once the election is won. Make electoral trade-offs to pursue their votes: not in this election.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-26-2019 at 10:05 PM.
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:19 PM
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No. However, the comment you replied to was my own reply to Flik & Karl talking about how a woman, especially Harris, was needed on the ticket.
...the comment I was replying too was this:

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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
In the same way, can someone tell me in which swing state(s) the black vote would be critical? Or is it a general sense that courting black voters is important otherwise they'll...what? vote Republican?
Wider context does not help you here. This was a post about the black vote, how you question how "critical" it was and mocking the idea that black people would vote for anyone else than a Democrat.

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I'm Canadian. They brought themselves to my country to escape chains.
Canada has more than enough problems of its own with indigenous people.

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Listening is fine. Maybe put several of them in Cabinet posts once the election is won. Make electoral trade-offs to pursue their votes: not in this election.
Wow. You've done it again. Another completely tone-deaf post. "Just sit this election out marginalised people. The white men have got this locked up, just trust us, we know what we are doing. And when we get elected we will throw a few token jobs your way because that will make us look good."
  #27  
Old 06-26-2019, 11:11 PM
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A female of color with a track record of being more to his political left: the name Kamala Harris jumps out right away, but he may prefer someone who hasn't campaigned against him.
Still?

Kamala talks Democratic, but acts Republican.
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Old 06-26-2019, 11:24 PM
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how you question how "critical" it was and mocking the idea that black people would vote for anyone else than a Democrat.
Is the black vote critical to winning 2020?

Also, they won't vote for anyone else than a Democrat, so it's accurate, even if it's not couched in terms that make you feel good.


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Canada has more than enough problems of its own with indigenous people.
Yup. And the fact that I'm Canadian does make your statement that "They were bought to your country in chains." look a little too eager to get dramatic on Internet. We're talking about US blacks as they relate to the 2020 election here, aren't we? You can show that Canada mistreats Injians as much as you want, I'm not sure what that's gonna change to the 2020 US elections.



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Wow. You've done it again. Another completely tone-deaf post.
and again and again and again. I'm enjoying this.
If you try to control my tone so that it doesn't offend your sensibilities, you can be sure I won't give you satisfaction.




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"Just sit this election out marginalised people. The white men have got this locked up, just trust us, we know what we are doing. And when we get elected we will throw a few token jobs your way because that will make us look good
Not sit out, they should contribute to the election and of course vote Democrat, which is what they'll do anyway because they're not morons. I don't know if the white men have this locked up but I think that the white men have the best chance of locking it up. Cabinet posts aren't token jobs and they shouldn't be given because if makes the white men look good. There are good reasons for it other than that but my personal favorite is making it clear to the rotten part of US society that their cause is doomed. It's partly why I like Pete too.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-26-2019 at 11:26 PM.
  #29  
Old 06-26-2019, 11:50 PM
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Is the black vote critical to winning 2020?
All votes are.

Trump lost the popular vote and won the election with very narrow margins in three states. If it was anyone but Clinton Trump probably would have lost.

Every vote counts. Especially with republican efforts at voter disenfranchisement.
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Old 06-27-2019, 01:37 AM
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Is the black vote critical to winning 2020?
...what do you think?

If it wasn't for the black vote Roy Moore would probably have probably won. 72% of white men who voted voted for Moore, 63% of white women.

Do you think the Democrats would have a chance if they didn't have the black vote?

Quote:
Also, they won't vote for anyone else than a Democrat, so it's accurate, even if it's not couched in terms that make you feel good.
This isn't about "what makes me feel good." Its about the fact that if you even want a chance of defeating Trump at the next election then it will probably be the votes of black people that push you over the line. The very least you can do is pay a bit more than lip service to them.

Quote:
Yup. And the fact that I'm Canadian does make your statement that "They were bought to your country in chains." look a little too eager to get dramatic on Internet. We're talking about US blacks as they relate to the 2020 election here, aren't we? You can show that Canada mistreats Injians as much as you want, I'm not sure what that's gonna change to the 2020 US elections.
Using the word "Injians" says everything we need to know about your attitude towards indigenous peoples of Canada. This isn't about the elections. Its about your attitudes towards marginalised people.

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and again and again and again. I'm enjoying this.
No doubt.

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If you try to control my tone so that it doesn't offend your sensibilities, you can be sure I won't give you satisfaction.
I'm not trying to control your fucking tone. I'm letting you know that what you are saying is tone-deaf, because...

Quote:
Not sit out, they should contribute to the election and of course vote Democrat, which is what they'll do anyway because they're not morons.
...you expect them to contribute, you expect them to vote Democrat, but you don't want to listen to any misgivings they have over the candidates that you favour. You are taking their vote for granted.

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I don't know if the white men have this locked up but I think that the white men have the best chance of locking it up.
Can you be specific here? Why would white men have the best chance of winning the presidency? What is it about white men that are inherently better than say...black women, or even black men?

Quote:
Cabinet posts aren't token jobs and they shouldn't be given because if makes the white men look good.
They are token jobs if the only reason you are giving them to people is the colour of their skin as a result of "electoral trade-offs."

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There are good reasons for it other than that but my personal favorite is making it clear to the rotten part of US society that their cause is doomed.
Voting more white men into power into a society founded on white supremacy sure is a funny way to show the "rotten part of US society that their cause is doomed."

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It's partly why I like Pete too.
You like Pete because, unlike some of the other candidates, Pete is a white man, and therefore more likely to "lock it up?" Am I understanding you correctly?

What does Pete have over Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker or Kamala Harris?
  #31  
Old 06-27-2019, 06:22 AM
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...what do you think?

If it wasn't for the black vote Roy Moore would probably have probably won. 72% of white men who voted voted for Moore, 63% of white women.
I should have "is courting the black vote critical in 2020?" I talked about it in terms of courting above so it should be read in that context.


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Using the word "Injians" says everything we need to know about your attitude towards indigenous peoples of Canada. This isn't about the elections. Its about your attitudes towards marginalised people.
No, it says everything other people need to know about my attitude towards you.

This thread is about the 2020 elections in a forum titled "Elections". If it were in a forum called "MichaelEmouse's attitudes towards marginalised people", then I suppose I'd have to focus on that. If you want to make it about my attitudes towards marginalised people, pit me.


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I'm letting you know that what you are saying is tone-deaf
I know quite well what my tone is.


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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
you expect them to contribute, you expect them to vote Democrat, but you don't want to listen to any misgivings they have over the candidates that you favour.
If there are any US blacks who'd like to tell me about their misgivings over Biden and Buttigieg, I'm willing to listen to them right now or in PM, depending on their preference. They may very well enlighten me and I'd be thankful to them for it. I'm not especially interested in your opinion, though.


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They are token jobs if the only reason you are giving them to people is the colour of their skin as a result of "electoral trade-offs."
I don't think it should be given to them as a result of electoral trade-off. I'm saying it may well be a good idea to give minorities Cabinet posts and that electoral trade-offs shouldn't be made to court their votes. Win the election by making the ticket as white as Greenland then once you've taken the office away from the GOP, one of the things you should focus on is what you can do to help marginalised people.


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Can you be specific here? Why would white men have the best chance of winning the presidency? What is it about white men that are inherently better than say...black women, or even black men?
Not inherently as in in any context, no. In the present US context, yes. A non-white or female candidate would be less likely to appeal to swing voters and more likely to motivate rednecks to vote. It's a scummy state of affairs but that's what we're unfortunately dealing with.

As for why I think white men have the best chance of winning the presidency, their record is 44-to-1.


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Originally Posted by Banquet Bear View Post
You like Pete because, unlike some of the other candidates, Pete is a white man, and therefore more likely to "lock it up?" Am I understanding you correctly?

What does Pete have over Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker or Kamala Harris?
Partly.

Being a white man is one of the reasons as I've explained above but he also has an unusually high combination of smarts and charisma, even for a presidential candidate, which makes him more likely to lock it up than Warren, Booker and Harris. They're also smart and charismatic but Buttigieg outdoes them (although that part isn't because he's a white man). He reminds me of Obama in that way but unfortunately, Obama can't run. Obama was smart and charismatic enough to make up for the unfair electoral disadvantage of being black but none of the other candidates are like that except Buttigieg who is smart and charismatic enough to make up for the unfair disadvantage of being gay.
  #32  
Old 06-27-2019, 07:41 AM
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All votes are.

Trump lost the popular vote and won the election with very narrow margins in three states. If it was anyone but Clinton Trump probably would have lost.

Every vote counts. Especially with republican efforts at voter disenfranchisement.
Any idea what the gopers have got planned in terms of voter disenfranchisement for 2020?


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Originally Posted by not what you'd expect View Post
I hope Warren can just ignore all the shit that Fox and Trump throw at her and stay on topic. We'll see. It's early days.

Pete is smart. Really smart. I like how he answers questions, even the questions meant to bait him. He just sort of ignores all the junk and gets to the meat of the question.
He is. Are there specific instances where you think he really showed that off? Links to them?

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-27-2019 at 07:42 AM.
  #33  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:24 AM
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Voting more white men into power into a society founded on white supremacy sure is a funny way to show the "rotten part of US society that their cause is doomed."
You mean like Abraham Lincoln or Franklin Roosevelt? Yeah, fuck those dead white men. We needed them as much as a fish needs a bicycle. People should have held out instead of working with the situation they were in.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-27-2019 at 08:25 AM.
  #34  
Old 06-27-2019, 08:33 AM
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Any idea what the gopers have got planned in terms of voter disenfranchisement for 2020?
The usual purge of voter rolls, Gerrymandering and closing polls in areas they don't like.

Their playbook is well known.
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  #35  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:18 AM
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Voting more white men into power into a society founded on white supremacy sure is a funny way to show the "rotten part of US society that their cause is doomed."
Piling on because this is so much fun:

The entire world has been based on white supremacy for the past half millennium.

Who gave women the right to vote, other women or men? Who gave black equal rights, people who were white or black? Who do you think will be instrumental in getting money out of politics, rich or poor people? I'm sure Alanis would love to write a song about this.

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-27-2019 at 09:20 AM.
  #36  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:27 AM
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I should have "is courting the black vote critical in 2020?" I talked about it in terms of courting above so it should be read in that context.
...I answered the question as asked.

Quote:
No, it says everything other people need to know about my attitude towards you.
You called the Indigenous peoples of Canada "Injians" because you've got an attitude towards this Indigenous Maori from New Zealand?

That doesn't make it any less offensive. In fact it makes it slightly worse.

Quote:
This thread is about the 2020 elections in a forum titled "Elections". If it were in a forum called "MichaelEmouse's attitudes towards marginalised people", then I suppose I'd have to focus on that. If you want to make it about my attitudes towards marginalised people, pit me.
I'll address your attitudes towards marginalised people in the thread that you expressed your opinion. No need for a pitting.

Quote:
I know quite well what my tone is.
Your tone is the very same tone that puts people off both Biden and Buttigieg as candidates.

Quote:
If there are any US blacks who'd like to tell me about their misgivings over Biden and Buttigieg, I'm willing to listen to them right now or in PM, depending on their preference. They may very well enlighten me and I'd be thankful to them for it. I'm not especially interested in your opinion, though.
Or you could have read what Marcia Fudge or Karen Bass or Jim Clyburn or Cory Booker or what many of the people who attended Mayor Pete's terrible town hall said to him on the 24th of June. All of which I've already cited in this thread. You don't need to wait for a private message: especially on a board with such a low-level of black posters such as this one. You would be waiting for a very long time.

It really isn't that hard to be able to seek out and find black voices. You just have to be ready to listen. I'm not a black voice. But I'm a brown voice. It doesn't surprise me that you aren't "interested in my opinion" but it does show what an uphill battle it is for marginalised people to get their voices heard. People like you have no interest in listening.

Quote:
I don't think it should be given to them as a result of electoral trade-off. I'm saying it may well be a good idea to give minorities Cabinet posts and that electoral trade-offs shouldn't be made to court their votes. Win the election by making the ticket as white as Greenland then once you've taken the office away from the GOP, one of the things you should focus on is what you can do to help marginalised people.
Why are you convinced that "making the ticket as white as Greenland" is the secret to taking the office away from the GOP?

Quote:
Not inherently as in in any context, no. In the present US context, yes. A non-white or female candidate would be less likely to appeal to swing voters and more likely to motivate rednecks to vote.
Not everyone agrees that "the swing vote" is the vote that needs to be focused on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Missing Obama Millions
So who were the Obama-to-nonvoters? Fifty-one percent were people of color, compared with 16 percent of Obama-to-Trump voters and 34 percent of Obama-to-Clinton voters.

...

Second, the preferences of Obama-to-nonvoters are almost always closer to the preferences of Obama-to-Clinton voters than they are to Obama-to-Trump voters. For example, nearly three-quarters of Obama-to-Trump voters supported repeal of the A.C.A., while less than half of Obama-to-nonvoters did.

...

Democratic strategists should recognize that Obama-to-Trump voters do not represent the future of their party. Obama-to-Trump voters diverge from the Democratic Party on many core issues, and in any case they are not particularly loyal Democrats: Less than one third of Obama-to-Trump voters supported Democrats down-ballot in 2016, and only 37 percent identify as Democrats.

In stark contrast, Obama-to-nonvoters share the progressive policy priorities of Democrats, and they strongly identify with the Democratic Party.

...

Significantly, only 43 percent of Obama-to-nonvoters reported being contacted by a candidate in 2016, compared with 66 percent of Obama-to-Clinton voters. While analysts have focused on why many conservative voters switched to the Republican Party, a better question might be why a campaign that sought to energize young voters of color failed to do so.

Getting these voters to the polls on Election Day is the most important task for progressives. And given their outlook on the important issues of the day, Obama-to-nonvoters are also likely to be easier to mobilize after two years of a Trump presidency — never mind four.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/10/o...democrats.html

Your proposed strategy of "making the ticket as white as Greenland" is not a strategy that either represents "the future of the party", nor does it appeal to the millions of people that turned out for Obama but didn't turn out for Clinton. Not reaching out to them but instead reaching out for the "swing redneck vote" would be a disaster of epic proportions in my, most humblest of opinions.

Quote:
It's a scummy state of affairs but that's what we're unfortunately dealing with.
Its a self-fulfilling prophecy that you've convinced yourself is true. This doesn't have to be "what we deal with."

Quote:
As for why I think white men have the best chance of winning the presidency, their record is 44-to-1.
If you only run white men for the presidency you will only ever get white men as president. This number is meaningless. Obama shouldn't be viewed as "an aberration."

Quote:
Partly.
This says a lot.

Quote:
Being a white man is one of the reasons as I've explained above
This is a terrible reason with faulty logic at its heart.

Quote:
but he also has an unusually high combination of smarts and charisma, even for a presidential candidate,
"Charisma" is subjective. I think he has the charisma of a wet fish. I think that in Dungeons and Dragons he would have rolled an 8, while Warren, Booker and Harris would all have rolled an 18. He doesn't appeal to me at all. I've never seen him deliver anything as close to being as relatable as this. Not only has she won over an audience (which had little tolerance for waffle) but she managed to articulate a complex problem in just a few minutes and provided a solution for that problem as well.

As for "smarts": the way Buttigieg handled the question here was not very smart at all. He argued early on in his campaign that he didn't need policy on his website because:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttigieg
The mayor also said his campaign will roll out a tool “shortly that will make it possible to just enter a key word and see, visualize, pull all the video on what I’ve said about that particular issue.”
and

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buttigieg
“I expect it will be very easy to tell where I stand on every policy issues of our time. But I’m going to take time to lay that out, rather than competing strictly on the theoretical elements of the proposals themselves.”
https://edition.cnn.com/politics/liv...28353456a2dc10

This...isn't very smart. They never rolled out that tool by the way: instead deciding to follow the pack and laid out policy on his website.

Quote:
which makes him more likely to lock it up than Warren, Booker and Harris.
I strongly disagree. I think Warren, Booker and Harris have more shown charisma and have more smarts than anything we've seen from Mayor Pete. He isn't even close to the other three in my opinion. When he speaks off-the-cuff he waffles. You can almost literally see him "making stuff up" when he speaks. I think he is a mediocre candidate with very little experience compared to Warren, Booker and Harris. He is the literal embodiment of "white male privilege": elevated in status over more talented people by virtue of his "maleness" and "the colour of his skin." And the thing is you aren't even pretending that this isn't the reason why you prefer him. Its all out in the open.

Quote:
They're also smart and charismatic but Buttigieg outdoes them (although that part isn't because he's a white man). He reminds me of Obama in that way but unfortunately, Obama can't run. Obama was smart and charismatic enough to make up for the unfair electoral disadvantage of being black but none of the other candidates are like that except Buttigieg who is smart and charismatic enough to make up for the unfair disadvantage of being gay.
LOL. Reminds you of Obama? Do you think Obama would ever say to a black person who is obviously upset and distraught "I don't need your vote" literally to their face?
  #37  
Old 06-27-2019, 09:42 AM
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Piling on because this is so much fun:
...while you are "having fun" I'll continue to live in a world where you think a mediocre white man deserves a shot at the presidency partly based on the colour of his skin more than extremely talented and experienced women and people of colour.

Quote:
The entire world has been based on white supremacy for the past half millennium.
Yep. And I actually have to live in that world where people treat me differently and people want to kill me simply because of the colour of my skin.

Quote:
Who gave women the right to vote, other women or men? Who gave black equal rights, people who were white or black? Who do you think will be instrumental in getting money out of politics, rich or poor people? I'm sure Alanis would love to write a song about this.
Wow.

Women fought for the right to vote. Black people weren't given "equal rights": they had to fight tooth and nail and they still don't have "true equality."

Are you wanting a thank-you? Do you expect grattitude? Why on earth would you write something as offensive as this?
  #38  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:11 AM
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Wow.

Women fought for the right to vote. Black people weren't given "equal rights": they had to fight tooth and nail and they still don't have "true equality."

Are you wanting a thank-you? Do you expect grattitude? Why on earth would you write something as offensive as this?
There's no reason for anyone to be thankful to me or feel gratitude towards me. I didn't do any of this. I mean, I like to think I'm a credit to my race (some of my best friends are white!) but there's no reason for women and non-whites to be thankful to me.

I wrote this to drive the point home that in a world that unfairly gives white men a disproportionate amount of power, those with the most power to change that system are mainly white men. Blacks and women certainly fought for their rights but the elected and appointed officials who actually changed the laws were mainly white men.

I know you want to pit me. Com'on, have at it. You can even team up with AK84 who says I'm a long-standing racist. Since there would be 2 of you pitting me, you can call it a pit roast

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-27-2019 at 10:13 AM.
  #39  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:27 AM
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Wouldn't Joe Biden and Pete Buttigieg be a great ticket? It would provide both continuity with a well-liked past president and freshness. It would be old + young, top Washington politician + small town mayor, black/blue collar + cosmopolitan appeal, rough + polished. I'm sure there are more ways in which they can be complementary.

Warren as Secretary of Health and Human Services with responsibilities for financial and lobbying legislation would be even better.
No number of voters of any consequence have ever supported a Biden run for the presidency. Given this history, and IMHO the complete and total lack of any reasons that might have changed voters' minds simply because he was VP for eight years, leads me to the inescapable conclusion: NO!
  #40  
Old 06-27-2019, 10:37 AM
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I wrote this to drive the point home that in a world that unfairly gives white men a disproportionate amount of power, those with the most power to change that system are mainly white men. Blacks and women certainly fought for their rights but the elected and appointed officials who actually changed the laws were mainly white men.
...the elevation of Trump to the presidency of the United States was in part backlash by many white people to their perception that their "power" was being taken away. They have "the most power to change that system" because they created that system and are manipulating the system to maintain that power. The solution isn't to "pander" to the system and hope that "the white man" doesn't treat "non-white men" too badly. The solution is to participate in the system. To fight the system and (over time) to dismantle that system. To not "sit on the sidelines" because somebody on the internet thinks its best "they sit this one out" because only "white men can defeat Trump."

Quote:
I know you want to pit me. Com'on, have at it. You can even team up with AK84 who says I'm a long-standing racist. Since there would be 2 of you pitting me, you can call it a pit roast
I have no desire to pit you. I don't even need to accuse you of "being racist" and I haven't and won't make that accusation. Your own words are indictment enough. Attempting to bait me into pitting you or to break the rules of this forum isn't going to work no matter how hard you try.
  #41  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:15 AM
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No number of voters of any consequence have ever supported a Biden run for the presidency. Given this history, and IMHO the complete and total lack of any reasons that might have changed voters' minds simply because he was VP for eight years, leads me to the inescapable conclusion: NO!
That's surprising to hear because The Economist puts Biden as having the highest probability of getting the Democratic nomination. They may be wrong, of course. Here's a 6 minute clip which does a better job of explaining their reasoning than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DusjM-_lnfk
  #42  
Old 06-27-2019, 11:43 AM
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Your own words are indictment enough.
Clear out the streets for the blue battalions
Clear out the streets for PeteButtigiegmann!
Billions are looking upon the White House full of hope
The day of freedom and mushrooms will dawn!

Last edited by MichaelEmouse; 06-27-2019 at 11:45 AM.
  #43  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:55 PM
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I'd like to repeat that if there are any blacks or other marginalized people who would like to go on about their misgivings concerning Buttigieg, I won't interact with you the way I interacted with Banquet Bear. I'm genuinely curious to know what you think and if you just want to have your say and for me not to reply, simply say so. I'll read your post attentively today, I'll come back to it tomorrow and not question or comment on it if that's what you want.
  #44  
Old 06-27-2019, 12:59 PM
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No number of voters of any consequence have ever supported a Biden run for the presidency.
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Originally Posted by MichaelEmouse View Post
That's surprising to hear because The Economist puts Biden as having the highest probability of getting the Democratic nomination.
Fiddle Peghead was referring to Biden's sub-sub-lackluster performance in previous presidential primaries. Biden's done this before, and failed.


Obviously, things have changed -- he's polling well, for now. But no one's voted yet, so I think it's fair to say his record in Democratic primaries is not so great.



On the OP: Biden doesn't impress me in any area besides personal charm. And that's wearing off.

Buttigieg is smart but not significantly more smart than other Democratic candidates, and less experienced than most of them.


I like either Warren or Harris for top of the ticket. Buttigieg might be okay for VP nom; he seems like he might be ready in 8 years.
  #45  
Old 06-27-2019, 01:27 PM
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...while you are "having fun" I'll continue to live in a world where you think a mediocre white man deserves a shot at the presidency partly based on the colour of his skin more than extremely talented and experienced women and people of colour.
Gabbard fan?
  #46  
Old 06-27-2019, 03:15 PM
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Gabbard fan?
...absolutely not.
  #47  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:03 PM
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I'd like to repeat that if there are any blacks or other marginalized people who would like to go on about their misgivings concerning Buttigieg, I won't interact with you the way I interacted with Banquet Bear. I'm genuinely curious to know what you think and if you just want to have your say and for me not to reply, simply say so. I'll read your post attentively today, I'll come back to it tomorrow and not question or comment on it if that's what you want.
...what a strange thing to say. You will listen to marginalised people, just not this one? You will read their cites, but not my cites? If you are genuinely curious why not interact with me instead of concocting bad poetry?

There are hardly any marginalised voices on the boards at all. I'm one of only a handful of indigenous posters that regularly post here. Many of our transgender posters have left. There is a reason for that. If you ever get to the point where you have to try to reassure marginalised people that you aren't going to mock them for trying to interact with you then you are probably doing it all wrong. There is no reason to think you will treat them any differently than me. Your assurances and your platitudes ring hollow.

Both Biden and Buttigieg have a problem of not wanting to hear what black and marginalised people are telling them. Biden told Booker that "maybe he should apologise." He issued a "non apology" apology to Anita Hill. The Crimes Act. Buttigieg and his demotion of Darryl Boykins, the shooting of Eric Logan. Perhaps its this, not their "charisma" or alleged "smarts", that resonates with you.
  #48  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:09 PM
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...what a strange thing to say. You will listen to marginalised people, just not this one? You will read their cites, but not my cites?
I had no idea you were indigenous until you mentioned it just now. My dislike of you was/is based on your posting history over the years.
  #49  
Old 06-27-2019, 04:29 PM
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I had no idea you were indigenous until you mentioned it just now.
...I mentioned it not "just now" but in post 36 to give context at why I found "Injians" so offensive. When I said "I actually have to live in that world where people treat me differently and people want to kill me simply because of the colour of my skin": what was it you thought I meant? When I said "I'm not a black voice. But I'm a brown voice" did that not mean anything to you?

Quote:
My dislike of you was/is based on your posting history over the years.
These are debate forums. You don't have to "like" me to be able to engage in debate.
  #50  
Old 06-27-2019, 05:07 PM
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...I mentioned it not "just now" but in post 36 to give context at why I found "Injians" so offensive. When I said "I actually have to live in that world where people treat me differently and people want to kill me simply because of the colour of my skin": what was it you thought I meant? When I said "I'm not a black voice. But I'm a brown voice" did that not mean anything to you?
After a few posts, I just skimmed and missed a fair amount. The longer the post, the more I skipped.

Anyway, I was having fun because I thought you were one of those Che Guevara t-shirt wearers but now that I know you're indigenous in New Zealand, to keep poking you seems cruel so I'll just wish you a good life.
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