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  #51  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Same with the deficit, which should be a mainstream issue. That needs to be dealt with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts. The MSM will help the Dems call for tax increases, and then determinedly change the subject when the spending cuts turn into spending increases. See the Medicare Sustainability Act, and AOC's notion of cutting $720B from the military, M4A and its increase of the deficit. Etc.
So if I'm a single issue "fiscal responsibility" voter, and between the two parties I have one group who wants to cut taxes and seemingly do nothing to cut spending, and another group who's willing to raise taxes and cut military spending in order to balance the budget, which one should I vote for?

This goes back to what was said above about Republicans needing to start living in the same reality. I've never seen Republicans actually practice what they preach, except Brownback's Kansas and we all saw how well that turned out.
  #52  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:06 AM
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Three words: Purge the loonies. Yeah, it'll cost you in the short run but, after a few cycles, folks will believe it and start voting for you.
  #53  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:14 AM
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As Shodan points out, the problem with a lot of these suggestions thus far is that if presented with a liberal Republican Party, and a liberal Democratic Party, most Democrats would still vote for the Democratic Party anyway. How do these suggestions change that?
  #54  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
As Shodan points out, the problem with a lot of these suggestions thus far is that if presented with a liberal Republican Party, and a liberal Democratic Party, most Democrats would still vote for the Democratic Party anyway. How do these suggestions change that?
You are the one who asked the question-what kind of answers were you looking for?
Why don't you tell us what reasonable measures you think the Republican Party could take that might attract Democratic voters?
  #55  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:23 AM
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To solve the debt problem, we need a combination of tax increases and cuts to defense spending. Most Democrats won't even consider the latter, let alone any Republicans.
  #56  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:30 AM
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The GOP could continue to support ideas with widespread support - voter ID, a ban on third-trimester abortions except if the fetus is dead or dying or will kill the mother, nuclear energy, GMOs, things like that. The difficulty is that the mainstream media will not cover it if they support those issues - they will put Democrats on air and assist them in changing the subject.
Right. The only reason Democrats don't vote Republican is because the mainstream media suppresses all the really good ideas the Republicans have.

So why is it the only paid advertising I see or hear from Republicans (actually, from the Trump re-election campaign) and the only direct mail that Republican campaign committees send to my late father, has to do with immigration or the socialist agenda of Nancy Pelosi? Who's hijacking the Republican party's efforts to put out their own positive story?
  #57  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:49 AM
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As Shodan points out, the problem with a lot of these suggestions thus far is that if presented with a liberal Republican Party, and a liberal Democratic Party, most Democrats would still vote for the Democratic Party anyway. How do these suggestions change that?
As an example, is it a liberal position that it's a bad thing if people die because they're too poor to afford health insurance? If your answer is "yes," and a Republican party who adopted that mentality would hence be a "liberal" Republican party, then that means that the Republican party is probably too far gone to ever attract Democrats.

There's no reason for that to be a liberal position, though. I believe the Republicans of my childhood would have no problem saying something like, "Of course it's bad that people die from lack of access to health care, and we truly want to help those people. We feel that the free market, and not the government, is in the best position to do that." And if this position was backed up by evidence, Democrats would have no problem voting for it.

The problem is that the Republican party has all but abandoned this position in anything more than faint lip service, as shown by the fact that when Republicans had 100% control of the government and were therefore in a position to pave the way for some great free market solution to people dying from being poor, they did absolutely nothing. As long as Republicans continue to live in a made up reality where doing nothing in the face of a serious problem is an example of "compassionate conservative" or a sign of their great ideas, then they'll have a hard time attracting Democrats.
  #58  
Old 07-09-2019, 10:54 AM
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If your current view is that the Republican Party is unreasonable, then you should already have a clue as to what changes should be made to make it reasonable.
If on the other hand your current view is that the Republican Party is reasonable as it now stands, then any changes suggested will seem unreasonable to you.
  #59  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Velocity View Post
As Shodan points out, the problem with a lot of these suggestions thus far is that if presented with a liberal Republican Party, and a liberal Democratic Party, most Democrats would still vote for the Democratic Party anyway. How do these suggestions change that?
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As an example, is it a liberal position that it's a bad thing if people die because they're too poor to afford health insurance? If your answer is "yes," and a Republican party who adopted that mentality would hence be a "liberal" Republican party, then that means that the Republican party is probably too far gone to ever attract Democrats.

There's no reason for that to be a liberal position, though. I believe the Republicans of my childhood would have no problem saying something like, "Of course it's bad that people die from lack of access to health care, and we truly want to help those people. We feel that the free market, and not the government, is in the best position to do that." And if this position was backed up by evidence, Democrats would have no problem voting for it.
Even if it weren't backed up by evidence, some Democratic leaning voters would vote for it. But, right now, I don't hear the Republican Party's solution to the two (IMHO related) problems -

1. How do you keep people from dying from lack of access to health care?
2. How do you keep people from going broke over the cost of accessing health care?

People who lean left do not think that the status quo is just fine. So the GOP needs to convince them that things really are just fine or give a conservative solution to those problems (I have no idea what that could be. I'm not a conservative - but those of you who are surely can come up with a solution.) I don't think that saying "this is a problem; here's how it can be fixed" is liberal.
  #60  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:53 PM
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People who lean left do not think that the status quo is just fine. So the GOP needs to convince them that things really are just fine or give a conservative solution to those problems (I have no idea what that could be. I'm not a conservative - but those of you who are surely can come up with a solution.) I don't think that saying "this is a problem; here's how it can be fixed" is liberal.
The most conservative solution that I would not dismiss out of hand is a single-payer Medicare for all option - but with the patient being the single payer. It would allow people to use the buying leverage of the government, and would allow a lot more transparency when deciding the course of a health treatment as the prices are more public. You can't have a functional free market without price transparency, so red lip service to the "free market" is ridiculous in the current obscure environment.

A plan similar to this was proposed in Nevada but didn't go anywhere. Note that I would not endorse such a program, but it is a plan I can take seriously, unlike the current non-plans.
  #61  
Old 07-09-2019, 12:56 PM
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So if I'm a single issue "fiscal responsibility" voter, and between the two parties I have one group who wants to cut taxes and seemingly do nothing to cut spending, and another group who's willing to raise taxes and cut military spending in order to balance the budget, which one should I vote for?
Well, if one of them thinks we can get $21 trillion out of the military budget and spend all of it without addressing the deficit at all, it's not an easy question to answer.

Regards,
Shodan
  #62  
Old 07-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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Well, if one of them thinks we can get $21 trillion out of the military budget and spend all of it without addressing the deficit at all, it's not an easy question to answer.
Is there anything the Republican Party can do to attract Democrats that you would find reasonable?
  #63  
Old 07-09-2019, 01:06 PM
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Well, if one of them thinks we can get $21 trillion out of the military budget and spend all of it without addressing the deficit at all, it's not an easy question to answer.

Regards,
Shodan
I guess its a really good thing that nobody on your side has ever said anything not quite accurate. Like for instance about airports during the revolutionary war.
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  #64  
Old 07-09-2019, 01:19 PM
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I guess its a really good thing that nobody on your side has ever said anything not quite accurate. Like for instance about airports during the revolutionary war.
Given that we're still hearing about how Obama said there were 57 states, we'll probably still be hearing about AOC's rookie mistake after civilization collapses due to global warming.
  #65  
Old 07-09-2019, 02:06 PM
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There's nothing the GOP can do to attract voters like the SDMB, because -




If the GOP turned into progressive Democrats, the SDMB and voters like them would just vote for the progressive Democrats anyway.

The GOP could continue to support ideas with widespread support - voter ID, a ban on third-trimester abortions except if the fetus is dead or dying or will kill the mother, nuclear energy, GMOs, things like that. The difficulty is that the mainstream media will not cover it if they support those issues - they will put Democrats on air and assist them in changing the subject.

Same with the deficit, which should be a mainstream issue. That needs to be dealt with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts. The MSM will help the Dems call for tax increases, and then determinedly change the subject when the spending cuts turn into spending increases. See the Medicare Sustainability Act, and AOC's notion of cutting $720B from the military, M4A and its increase of the deficit. Etc.

Regards,
Shodan
Basically, what it comes down to is if the GOP stopped being racist, anti-democratic and anti-science, it wouldn't be the GOP.
Regards,
MM28
  #66  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:20 PM
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I don't think there is anything a Republican could do to win my vote for the rest of my lifetime.
  #67  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:28 PM
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The GOP could continue to support ideas with widespread support - voter ID
This is a perfect example of why reconciliation isn't going to be possible. Voter ID support isn't really all that widespread among Democrats, but in any case, its support in both party exists entirely because of GOP lies about voter fraud.

If the actual facts were presented (that in-person voter fraud is vanishingly rare, and that "voter ID" laws disenfranchise tens of thousands of times more legitimate voters than fraudulent ones, usually along racial and economic lines), it would lose nearly all of it's support among Democrats and Independents, but still be very popular with the GOP, to whom the racism and disenfranchisement is the whole point.
  #68  
Old 07-09-2019, 03:48 PM
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Well, if one of them thinks we can get $21 trillion out of the military budget and spend all of it without addressing the deficit at all, it's not an easy question to answer.

Regards,
Shodan
What a great non sequitur! Let's ask a question that is easy to answer --

If a bill magically appeared before the current congress that would balance the budget by cutting military spending and simultaneously raising taxes on the wealthy...

a) Would this bill make it to the President's desk?
b) Would the president sign it?

Last edited by steronz; 07-09-2019 at 03:49 PM.
  #69  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:07 PM
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Well, if one of them thinks we can get $21 trillion out of the military budget and spend all of it without addressing the deficit at all, it's not an easy question to answer.

Regards,
Shodan
Republicans have lost total credibility on the deficit - that tends to happen when you cut taxes for the wealthy despite increased military commitments and spending.
  #70  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:39 PM
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They've also lost all credibility on patriotism, what with outing a CIA operative for political payback on her husband and supporting a Russian intelligence asset for president.
  #71  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:52 PM
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As Shodan points out, the problem with a lot of these suggestions thus far is that if presented with a liberal Republican Party, and a liberal Democratic Party, most Democrats would still vote for the Democratic Party anyway. How do these suggestions change that?
I addressed this point. I said it wouldn't be enough for the Republicans to stop doing bad things. I agree with Shodan; people would still vote for the Democrats (who have a history of not doing bad things) over the Republicans (who would be recent converts). To win over new voters, the Republicans need to go beyond imitating the Democrats and offer something that the Democrats aren't offering.

And it's got to be something real. Not just something like "We'll protect you from the imaginary threat of socialists taking your house."
  #72  
Old 07-09-2019, 04:59 PM
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I believe the Republicans of my childhood would have no problem saying something like, "Of course it's bad that people die from lack of access to health care, and we truly want to help those people. We feel that the free market, and not the government, is in the best position to do that." And if this position was backed up by evidence, Democrats would have no problem voting for it.
In 1965 the Republicans of my childhood joined Democrats to vote 313-115 in the House and 68-21 in the Senate to pass Medicare.
  #73  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:10 PM
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As Shodan points out, the problem with a lot of these suggestions thus far is that if presented with a liberal Republican Party, and a liberal Democratic Party, most Democrats would still vote for the Democratic Party anyway. How do these suggestions change that?
Looking at my own life, I've pretty much voted for the Dems down the line. So it might help answer Velocity's question for me to analyze the times that I didn't. In 1980 I voted for Congressman Anderson (A moderate Republican running as an independent. I voted for my states (moderate-to-liberal) Republican Governor in the 70's and 80's (Bill Miliken), more times than I can remember in those pre-term-limited days. (I also voted for a couple of Republicans that I knew personally for local office.)

So I guess the answer would be "GET BETTER CANDIDATES".
  #74  
Old 07-09-2019, 05:21 PM
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Basically, what it comes down to is if the GOP stopped being racist, anti-democratic and anti-science, it wouldn't be the GOP.
Regards,
MM28
This.

We don't need a better Republican Party, we need better citizens.
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Old 07-09-2019, 06:06 PM
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I addressed this point. I said it wouldn't be enough for the Republicans to stop doing bad things. I agree with Shodan; people would still vote for the Democrats (who have a history of not doing bad things) over the Republicans (who would be recent converts). To win over new voters, the Republicans need to go beyond imitating the Democrats and offer something that the Democrats aren't offering.

And it's got to be something real. Not just something like "We'll protect you from the imaginary threat of socialists taking your house."
What’s imaginary about a wealth tax or the other nutty far left ideas being floated by nutty far left democrats running for president? Should we not believe their pandering?
  #76  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:06 PM
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What’s imaginary about a wealth tax or the other nutty far left ideas being floated by nutty far left democrats running for president? Should we not believe their pandering?
I don't know that a wealth tax would qualify as a "nutty idea". Most of the middle class pays a tax on the main repository of their wealth. It's called the property tax. So what's wrong with requiring the wealthy to pay a tax on the main repository of their wealth?
  #77  
Old 07-09-2019, 07:57 PM
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In 1965 the Republicans of my childhood joined Democrats to vote 313-115 in the House and 68-21 in the Senate to pass Medicare.
If you're old enough to clearly remember things from 1965, the "Republicans of your childhood" would be called Democrats today. (The Republicans of today would have been called "Disney Villains" then. The sort of stuff they've done in the last ten years would have been inconceivable for a political party that still called itself "American.")
  #78  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:03 PM
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Just two examples of how far right the GOP has gone. Obamacare was originally a Republican proposal. Not just Romneycare in MA, but a very similar proposal was made in response to Hillary's proposals in 1993. Obama clearly expected the GOP to go along and tried hard to make it bipartisan. But the Newtered Republicans turned against it.

Second, carbon tax was originally a conservative proposal--a market-based solution to avoid the government having to set quotas for each company and the complications of selling quotas. Instead the Republicans decided that climate change was a fiction.
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Old 07-09-2019, 08:23 PM
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Same with the deficit, which should be a mainstream issue. That needs to be dealt with a combination of tax increases and spending cuts. The MSM will help the Dems call for tax increases, and then determinedly change the subject when the spending cuts turn into spending increases. See the Medicare Sustainability Act, and AOC's notion of cutting $720B from the military, M4A and its increase of the deficit. Etc.
What?! A decrease in the military budget under the guise of cutting spending; does this woman's perfidy know no bounds?
  #80  
Old 07-09-2019, 08:48 PM
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Republicans have lost total credibility on the deficit - that tends to happen when you cut taxes for the wealthy despite increased military commitments and spending.
Don't forget Medicare Part D (for prescription drugs); a whole new entitlement and not a peep about how to pay for it.
  #81  
Old 07-09-2019, 09:55 PM
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If you're old enough to clearly remember things from 1965, the "Republicans of your childhood" would be called Democrats today. (The Republicans of today would have been called "Disney Villains" then. The sort of stuff they've done in the last ten years would have been inconceivable for a political party that still called itself "American.")
To be fair, the question was "What do Republicans have to do to win Democratic votes?"

Seriously, though, my real proposal was back in Post #30. That's a Republican Party I could seriously consider.
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Old 07-10-2019, 07:48 AM
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This is a perfect example of why reconciliation isn't going to be possible. Voter ID support isn't really all that widespread among Democrats, but in any case, its support in both party exists entirely because of GOP lies about voter fraud.
Only if you consider nearly two thirds to be not 'all that widespread'.
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Originally Posted by steronz
What a great non sequitur! Let's ask a question that is easy to answer --

If a bill magically appeared before the current congress that would balance the budget by cutting military spending and simultaneously raising taxes on the wealthy...

a) Would this bill make it to the President's desk?
b) Would the president sign it?
a) Probably not. Since spending bills like that have to arise in the House, and since most Dems aren't as crazy/innumerate as AOC. Eliminating the military budget in its entirety wouldn't eliminate the deficit, so almost all of it would have to come from tax increases. There aren't enough 'wealthy' to get the money just from taxing them, so it would almost necessarily mean raising taxes on the middle class. And the Dems aren't going to do that. See the Bush era tax cuts.

And the Dems aren't going to support the bill, because they also want to increase spending - not on the military, but on everything else. So it's
  • Cut military spending to address the deficit,
  • Spend the money on something else,
  • Raise taxes on the wealthy to address the deficit,
  • Spend the money on something else,
  • Talk about how the GOP doesn't want to address the deficit.
b)He would never get the chance.

Sorry, no magic in politics.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-10-2019, 07:52 AM
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What?! A decrease in the military budget under the guise of cutting spending; does this woman's perfidy know no bounds?
She wasn't talking about cutting spending - she wanted to spend it on something else.

And you did notice the $720 billion figure, didn't you? (Also the $21 trillion one). I assume you know roughly how much the US spends on the military - AOC apparently does not.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-10-2019, 08:06 AM
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She wasn't talking about cutting spending - she wanted to spend it on something else.

And you did notice the $720 billion figure, didn't you? (Also the $21 trillion one). I assume you know roughly how much the US spends on the military - AOC apparently does not.

Regards,
Shodan
Remember my question from post #62?
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Old 07-10-2019, 08:59 AM
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a) Probably not. Since spending bills like that have to arise in the House, and since most Dems aren't as crazy/innumerate as AOC. Eliminating the military budget in its entirety wouldn't eliminate the deficit, so almost all of it would have to come from tax increases. There aren't enough 'wealthy' to get the money just from taxing them, so it would almost necessarily mean raising taxes on the middle class. And the Dems aren't going to do that. See the Bush era tax cuts.

And the Dems aren't going to support the bill, because they also want to increase spending - not on the military, but on everything else. So it's
  • Cut military spending to address the deficit,
  • Spend the money on something else,
  • Raise taxes on the wealthy to address the deficit,
  • Spend the money on something else,
  • Talk about how the GOP doesn't want to address the deficit.
b)He would never get the chance.

Sorry, no magic in politics.

Regards,
Shodan
You're right, the magic bill to increase taxes and cut military spending would totally die because of Democrats. It's always the Democrats fault that the budget isn't balanced.

Truly you live in a reality that I don't exist in, and if this is the reality that other Republicans live in, it will be very difficult for them to ever attract my vote.

Have a nice day.
  #86  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:18 AM
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Remember my question from post #62?
Sure, and I already mentioned a couple of things I would find reasonable and that I think would appeal to Democrats, at least moderate Democrats. I also mentioned that, for some, there is nothing the GOP can do to reach out to them.

"If the Republicans stop being Republicans, I still won't vote for them" is not a Democrat the Repubs have much chance of reaching. So I have nothing to suggest in that case - I am more interested in policies that might appeal to people who can be appealed to.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-10-2019, 09:51 AM
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Amazing the resistance to the idea "stop enabling, supporting, and celebrating racists, misogynists, and abusers of women". You'd think that might be a no-brainer, or at the very least a no brainer to say "yeah, that's a reasonable idea". That it's not shows us how far apart we are, IMO.

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  #88  
Old 07-10-2019, 11:24 AM
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Yes, we are pretty far apart.
Quote:
"stop enabling, supporting, and celebrating racists, misogynists, and abusers of women".
And even if you do, I still won't vote for you. That's pretty far.

Regards,
Shodan
  #89  
Old 07-10-2019, 11:30 AM
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Yes, we are pretty far apart. And even if you do, I still won't vote for you. That's pretty far.
But that's not what I said. I used some nuance in my earlier posts, including describing when I would consider voting for a Republican. I understand responding to nuance with nuance probably takes more effort than snark, especially for someone as naturally gifted in snark-skills as yourself, but I think it can be quite rewarding, and I always enjoy our discussions when you choose to go to this effort.
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Old 07-10-2019, 11:30 AM
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Yes, we are pretty far apart. And even if you do, I still won't vote for you. That's pretty far.
Is that a reason not to do it?
Wouldn't "stop enabling, supporting, and celebrating racists, misogynists, and abusers of women" be a good idea on its own merits?
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:11 PM
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Sure it would be a good idea. Accepting your political opponents' worst mischaracterizations as if they were true - not so much.

Look, I get it - the SDMB as a group isn't listening, and there isn't anything the Republicans can do that they won't condemn. But this is a group that thinks this is "nuance". But, as with the voter ID issue and third-trimester abortion, there are Democrats who are actually capable of listening. Republicans should reach out to them.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 07-10-2019, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
Sure it would be a good idea. Accepting your political opponents' worst mischaracterizations as if they were true - not so much.

Look, I get it - the SDMB as a group isn't listening, and there isn't anything the Republicans can do that they won't condemn. But this is a group that thinks this is "nuance". But, as with the voter ID issue and third-trimester abortion, there are Democrats who are actually capable of listening. Republicans should reach out to them.
So I guess you totally ignored the post I made (and similar sentiments in other posts) in which I described circumstances in which I could support an honest and decent Republican? Is it possible that you're missing some actual nuance from your fellow Dopers, and many of us are actually relatively complex thinkers who just strongly disagree with you on a host of issues?
  #93  
Old 07-10-2019, 02:34 PM
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The Republican Party has ventured so far to the right they make GHW Bush look liberal. But then he did not govern as he campaigned which was straight out of the Lee Attwater dirty playbook. The last Republican who campaigned in a way I could have voted for was Gerald Ford (who also governed fairly moderately...lots of vetoes on spending bills but before the evangelical takeover of the party). Separation of Church and State, a willingness to talk rather than blast the other side as Godless commies.
  #94  
Old 07-10-2019, 03:43 PM
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Yes, we are pretty far apart.

And even if you do, I still won't vote for you. That's pretty far.
If I'm following your argument correctly, you're saying you are opposed to "racists, misogynists, and abusers of women". And on that basis you have chosen to support the Republicans over the Democrats.

That's the kind of disconnection with reality that conservatives need to address if they want to appeal to rational voters.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:56 PM
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It's probably worth noting here that Republicans are already winning over some fraction of blue voters. In 2016, President Trump received a vote from 8% of self-identified democrats.

What would it take to increase that a few % points? I don't know for sure, but an emphasis on policies where the GOP candidate and the moderate dems are in alignment (and the dem candidates are out of alignment with their more moderate self-identified party members) seems like a good starting place. A few examples:
- opposition to elective late-term abortions
- support for manufacturing & energy jobs
- opposition to (and highlighting the extremity of) the more radical gun control proposals
- support for voter ID laws
- support for the census citizenship question
  #96  
Old 07-10-2019, 09:19 PM
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She wasn't talking about cutting spending - she wanted to spend it on something else.

And you did notice the $720 billion figure, didn't you? (Also the $21 trillion one). I assume you know roughly how much the US spends on the military - AOC apparently does not.
Was she talking about this year's figure, or next year's? I've noticed that politicians will often discuss budgetary matters and will cite their cumulative cost over some time period (ten years is a popular span); perhaps Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez used that assessment to come up with the $21 trillion figure. What is the projected total defense budget over the next decade, at its current rate of growth? I did a web search, but couldn't find it.

Regardless of the actual numbers, if she wants to spend money on one thing and tries to offset it by cutting spending on something else, that at least shows a grasp of basic mathematics. Raising spending, and trying to pay for it by cutting revenue, is a Republican fantasy.
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Old 07-11-2019, 02:12 AM
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a legitimately honest and decent Republican candidate might actually be able to convince me that I'm wrong on, say, the corporate income tax rate (a topic on which I don't have particularly strong views). There's no possibility that a bigot, misogynist, abuser of women, or an enabler/supporter of such could do so.
This is a textbook case of ad hominem. If a honest and decent Republican says, "A low corporate income tax rate attracts foreign investment in America," that is no different than if a racist bigot misogynist Republican says, "A low corporate income tax rate attracts foreign investment in America."


It is tantamount to saying, "If Einstein says 4+4=8, I'll believe him, but not if Hitler tells me the same thing."
  #98  
Old 07-11-2019, 05:03 AM
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This is a textbook case of ad hominem. If a honest and decent Republican says, "A low corporate income tax rate attracts foreign investment in America," that is no different than if a racist bigot misogynist Republican says, "A low corporate income tax rate attracts foreign investment in America."


It is tantamount to saying, "If Einstein says 4+4=8, I'll believe him, but not if Hitler tells me the same thing."
I suppose it's a personal flaw of mine. I have a lot of trouble seriously considering the arguments of bigots, misogynists, and abusers of women. There are plenty of folks who aren't bigots, misogynists, and abusers of women, who make a variety of arguments on almost all sides of most issues. So I still can reasonably consider all of these arguments without having to listen to bigots, misogynists, and abusers of women.

Maybe you're immune to such personal flaws, but I'm not.
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Old 07-11-2019, 05:56 AM
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I'd say they could sway a lot of young Dem millennial voters if there was a way that the crushing student loan debt could be addressed in a way that would actually change people's lives. I'm not saying a complete forgiveness of all loans but surely something short of that could be done.

The corporations get plenty of bailouts when needed. Something like 44 million Americans have student loans and honestly maybe the whole federal student loans thing that can't be discharged in bankruptcy is something that needs more regulations, because there are whole new generations that are mired in a debt they'll never be free of, it's beginning to look like the baby boomers will be the last generation to enjoy a better standard of living than their parents.
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"You can do anything you set your mind to...But money helps"

Last edited by pool; 07-11-2019 at 05:56 AM.
  #100  
Old 07-11-2019, 07:41 AM
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Talking about what Republicans could do to win Democratic votes is a waste. They don't want Democratic votes; they want to take away democratic power and shove their agenda up their asses. Full stop. They're not interested in democracy, so wondering what they could do to win more progressive support is like wondering what Southern Democrats could have done to make themselves more appealing to Radical Republicans during Reconstruction. The Southern Democrats never made themselves more appealing to Radical Republicans; in fact their solution to get Radical Republicans out of the South was to double down using violence and mayhem to wear down the Republicans' will to commit themselves to the cause of equality. And it worked. In fact, violence and the myth of the lost cause were so effective that there are still monuments to the confederacy in places like...Minnesota

Republicans are NOT interested in your democracy; they're more interested in destroying it -completely.

Last edited by asahi; 07-11-2019 at 07:44 AM.
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