Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:13 PM
pjacks is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 216
I wonder if AOC will publicly apologize to Pelosi for implying she is a gross racist, now that AOC and her squad have been publicly harassed by a genuine gross racist.
  #52  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:15 PM
you with the face is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Okay, but what does Biden have to say that he hasn't already said? Does Biden have to light up twitter every time Trump says something racist or misogynistic? Why - to make people feel better?
So you’ve answered my question. Thank you.
  #53  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:25 PM
pjacks is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Location: Chicago
Posts: 216
I don't even understand what you are asking. You might as well be asking if the ocean will be wet tomorrow. The democrats have harped nonstop about how Racist trump is during his entire presidency. They ran a presidential campaign that basically amounted to "Oooo look how racist and sexist Trump is- JuSt ThInK oF tHe ChIlDrEn!!!!". Democratic politicians probably have stock statements of outrage set aside for the practically daily event when our Imbecile President decides to tweet some weird racist shit that sounds like it was lifted straight out of the youtube comments section of an alt-right video.

Last edited by pjacks; 07-14-2019 at 07:29 PM.
  #54  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:30 PM
Little Nemo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Western New York
Posts: 81,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
How is this going to polarize the Democrats? Are some Democrats going to say "you know, Trump has a point. These bad women SHOULD go back!"
Trump doesn't have to worry about alienating black voters. He doesn't have enough black supporters to worry about.

So he can safely try to drive a wedge into the Democrats. He and other Republicans can say all kinds of racist things and force the Democratic candidates to make a choice.

Do they mostly ignore Trump's racism? If they do, the right wing will put out the message that white Democrats don't really care about black people, so why should black people vote for them?

Do they attack Trump's racism? If they do, the right wing will put out the message that the Democrats are the party that defends black people while the Republicans are the party that defends white people.
  #55  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:31 PM
Sherrerd's Avatar
Sherrerd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The tweets aren't a distraction in the "Oh, look over there" sense. They're not a distraction device; they're a division device, and it's important to understand the difference.
Why?

They are keeping Epstein out of the news. That's distraction. "Oh, look over there" is exactly what the tweets are doing, at least with respect to the more dangerous-for-Trump Epstein story. Nobody's looking at that at the moment.

The tweets are also causing Democrats who were squabbling to unite in contempt for Trump. That's basically the opposite of division.


Certainly every aspect of the Trump presidency is at least generally divisive--I'll grant you that. Trump splits Americans into 'vocally oppose him' and 'vocally support him' and 'hide their heads in the sand' categories. And those categories haven't played out strictly by party lines, which is where the divisiveness comes in.
  #56  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:37 PM
Sherrerd's Avatar
Sherrerd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 6,989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Perhaps Attiah would simply like to be a little more direct, and simply join Trump's campaign team? Because that's basically where she's at right now.
Seriously.

People's hunger for 'cool cred' can lead them astray, no doubt. And allying yourself with Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez certainly is a currently-effective way to get that cred.

But an editor at the Washington Post should be a little less needy.
  #57  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:40 PM
Kent Clark's Avatar
Kent Clark is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Posts: 26,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Well, can we expect these white moderates to speak out against the flagrant racism that is coming out of the White House?

Or will they shrink away from saying or doing anything that might possibly upset the whites that secretly agree with the President?
Guess what. I'm a white moderate. Not only that, but I'm a >65, suburban white moderate. Guess what else. My grandfather was an immigrant from rural central Europe. And it's a damn good thing he got here before 1924, otherwise he might never have gotten past Ellis Island. He would have been honored to be elected to Congress.

But of course, he believed only "Real Americans" mattered. That was when my father, a white, suburban, moderate Republican told him, "Poppa, you're an IMMIGRANT! Real Americans want you to go back where you came from!"
  #58  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:43 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
They are keeping Epstein out of the news. That's distraction. "Oh, look over there" is exactly what the tweets are doing, at least with respect to the more dangerous-for-Trump Epstein story. Nobody's looking at that at the moment.
Epstein's perversion is now a criminal matter. It will be litigated and investigated by courts, and by the media. If this is a distraction, it's a poor one. But of course, this is not a distraction; it's a tactic to incite division, just like the suffering of migrant children, just like proposing a citizenship question, just like advertising ICE RAIDS!!!! It's not distraction; it's division.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherrerd View Post
The tweets are also causing Democrats who were squabbling to unite in contempt for Trump. That's basically the opposite of division.
It won't be long before this turns into a purity test.
  #59  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:53 PM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,439
Not much of a test when everyone passes it.
  #60  
Old 07-14-2019, 07:56 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Here's another commentary on Pelosi's "women of color problem" by Sophia Nelson:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...mn/1715320001/

Quote:
What the heck? What Trump really meant to say is that older white people like him, Biden, and yes, Pelosi, simply do not yet know how to deal with women of color being in power and holding their feet to the fire.
Notice how someone reading that could be forgiven for assuming she's subtly slipping Biden and Pelosi into the same category as Trump.

Right, the same Nancy Pelosi who put incoming freshmen and complete political novices like the Budget, Oversight, and Foreign Affairs committees. FFS, Pelosi doesn't have a problem with The Squad other than their desire to take partisan disagreements to Twitter. They're angry because this Bernie Bro bullshit of "Let's blow up the fucking system" and let's duel on social media has rubbed off on them - and they're finding out the rest of the party's fucking annoyed with them, including the CBS, which last time I checked had lots of people of color among its membership.

Last edited by asahi; 07-14-2019 at 07:58 PM.
  #61  
Old 07-14-2019, 08:02 PM
you with the face is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Do they attack Trump's racism? If they do, the right wing will put out the message that the Democrats are the party that defends black people while the Republicans are the party that defends white people.
Don’t they already do that, though? There is no conservative who hasn’t gotten this memo already.

I don’t see any strategy behind this beyond typical Trump impulsiveness. He’s tired of these “uppity bitches” calling out his treatment of immigrants so he attempts to take them down a peg. That’s it. Let’s not make this more calculated than it is. He has to bully people to keep up his narcissistic supply.

Last edited by you with the face; 07-14-2019 at 08:03 PM.
  #62  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:09 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Don’t they already do that, though? There is no conservative who hasn’t gotten this memo already.

I don’t see any strategy behind this beyond typical Trump impulsiveness. He’s tired of these “uppity bitches” calling out his treatment of immigrants so he attempts to take them down a peg. That’s it. Let’s not make this more calculated than it is. He has to bully people to keep up his narcissistic supply.
No, that's not it at all -- this is just completely misdiagnosing the situation.

Consider the fact that perhaps the single biggest and worst political ass kicking Trump has sustained so far was the government shutdown, which was not necessarily set up by Pelosi, but she played it masterfully once he realized what he was about to do. Pelosi stayed out of the way. And she made him own the shutdown. Not only that, Pelosi made him cry uncle and most people agree - right and left - that Donald Trump lost that match. It was Pelosi, not AOC, not the Squad, not even Chuck Schumer who beat Trump. It was Pelosi. To boot, she has zinged him a few times and again since.

Trump realizes he has no answer for Pelosi. He can't figure out how to beat her because she knows what his vulnerabilities are. What made matters even worse was that he didn't know what Pelosi's vulnerabilities were -- until now, that is. Pelosi's vulnerability isn't Pelosi; it's the Bernie and Justice Democratic wing of the party, which wants to play by its own rules and doesn't want to be told to conform and fly in formation, because that's not what revolutionaries do, I guess. Trump saw something within the past couple of weeks. He realized that Pelosi may not be able to control the progressives, and that the issues that can sow the deepest divisions are divisions along race. He knows that the Democratic party has become more than just the party that embraces diversity; it's the party in which embracing diversity is a litmus test -- which it should be, IMO. The problem is, sometimes that litmus test can be weaponized. And that's what AOC's chief of staff Saikat Chakrabarti and AOC herself have done: they're weaponizing identity politics because it was the only card they could play to shake up the party and force Pelosi to pay attention. It's akin to a four year old child breaking toys at Toys-R-US so that mommy will buy her a toy.

Look at the timing of this quote (July 12):

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/12/polit...tez/index.html

Quote:
"I'll tell you something about Nancy Pelosi that you know better than I do, she is not a racist. OK? She is not a racist. For them to call her a racist is a disgrace," Trump said while speaking to reporters before departing on Marine One.
Heck, go back a few weeks to just after the debate and look how he even kinda gave a half-hearted defense of Biden.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/202...t-too-n1024906

Quote:
“It wasn’t that outstanding, and I think probably he was hit harder than he should have been hit,” Trump said.
The question is why would Trump go out of his way to defend Biden and Pelosi? Why play nice with a guy who, according to polls, is potentially an election match-up disaster?

Today's tweet answered that question. He knows that by pushing racial buttons, Trump himself will become even more toxic to the Democratic party than he is now. He wants to get racial, partly to play to his base, but partly to kick the hornets nest that's hanging over the Democratic party. Pelosi and Biden are now in a position where moderation starts to look more and more like weakness, more like Nazi collaborators, and Trump can make that happen.
  #63  
Old 07-14-2019, 09:41 PM
you with the face is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
The question is why would Trump go out of his way to defend Biden and Pelosi? Why play nice with a guy who, according to polls, is potentially an election match-up disaster?
It has less to do with him defending Biden and Pelosi and more to do with him trying to marginalize AOC and Harris. You know, like he and other conservatives have been doing since 1776. You are ascribing too much masterminded depth if you think this isn’t just him siding with white people to vilify mouthy black and brown people.

Quote:
Today's tweet answered that question. He knows that by pushing racial buttons, Trump himself will become even more toxic to the Democratic party than he is now. He wants to get racial, partly to play to his base, but partly to kick the hornets nest that's hanging over the Democratic party. Pelosi and Biden are now in a position where moderation starts to look more and more like weakness, more like Nazi collaborators, and Trump can make that happen.
Moderation does look like weakness when you have a racist demagogue in the office. It’s been looking this way long before this tweet. Consider the possibility that this revelation doesn’t have to be manufactured by Trump to be felt and appreciated.
  #64  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:17 PM
sps49sd is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 455
Trump could have kept silent and let the House D caucus tear itself apart, but noOOOoo!
  #65  
Old 07-14-2019, 11:39 PM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
It has less to do with him defending Biden and Pelosi and more to do with him trying to marginalize AOC and Harris. You know, like he and other conservatives have been doing since 1776. You are ascribing too much masterminded depth if you think this isn’t just him siding with white people to vilify mouthy black and brown people.
I don't disagree: the conservatives want to marginalize AOC, Harris, and others, but in fact, I think they want to set it up so that they marginalize each other. Trump and his allies want a dynamic in which non-whites and hard-left progressives insist on a more authentic candidate, and the conservatives also want to set it up so that white voters see non-white candidates get turned off by the progressives. But even more than that: the more that Democrats are consumed with anti-Trump rage, the more consumed they are with social justice, it's probably true that they will be less effective at governance. They'll spend less time talking about the issues that unify progressives of all stripe: healthcare, fair taxation, labor protection, and those kinds of issues. In short, it's a game of divide and conquer.
  #66  
Old 07-15-2019, 02:43 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Don’t they already do that, though? There is no conservative who hasn’t gotten this memo already.

I don’t see any strategy behind this beyond typical Trump impulsiveness. He’s tired of these “uppity bitches” calling out his treatment of immigrants so he attempts to take them down a peg. That’s it. Let’s not make this more calculated than it is. He has to bully people to keep up his narcissistic supply.

Yeah, agreed. I don't get why people even on the left struggle with that idea of Trump constantly playing N dimension chess.

He's a stupid cunt. He's been elected by stupid cunts (and boosted by a Russian archcynic) because he's a stupid cunt. That's all there is. There's no plan, no strategy, no wheels within wheels. The dumb cunt just says the first thing that comes to his, for lack of a better term, brain at all times - which most often is what the people on teevee said that bellyfelt so true, so true, believe me it felt so true ; but other times is just addled bigoted cunt stuff. FFS the man can't even muster the intellectual fortitude to power through the first page of a two page memo, and you guys think he's Constantine Machiavelli Borgia up in there ? Get a grip.
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.
  #67  
Old 07-15-2019, 04:12 AM
foolsguinea is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Tornado Alley
Posts: 15,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
Do they mostly ignore Trump's racism? If they do, the right wing will put out the message that white Democrats don't really care about black people, so why should black people vote for them?

Do they attack Trump's racism? If they do, the right wing will put out the message that the Democrats are the party that defends black people while the Republicans are the party that defends white people.
The social media bots can and do say both of those things, at the same time, right now.

Last edited by foolsguinea; 07-15-2019 at 04:12 AM.
  #68  
Old 07-15-2019, 05:55 AM
you with the face is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I don't disagree: the conservatives want to marginalize AOC, Harris, and others, but in fact, I think they want to set it up so that they marginalize each other. Trump and his allies want a dynamic in which non-whites and hard-left progressives insist on a more authentic candidate, and the conservatives also want to set it up so that white voters see non-white candidates get turned off by the progressives.
Assuming this his strategy, it will work only if white moderates do what I alluded to earlier: shrinking away from doing anything that might possibly cost them conservative-leaning white votes. And being real obvious about such appeasement. This is a reputation that they’ve earned for a reason, but at least Trump’s tweet is so blatantly awful that it requires little progressive “wokeness” to condemn it. Biden should be thanking Trump for this rare opportunity...assuming he takes advantage of it.
  #69  
Old 07-15-2019, 06:53 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
Assuming this his strategy, it will work only if white moderates do what I alluded to earlier: shrinking away from doing anything that might possibly cost them conservative-leaning white votes. And being real obvious about such appeasement. This is a reputation that they’ve earned for a reason, but at least Trump’s tweet is so blatantly awful that it requires little progressive “wokeness” to condemn it. Biden should be thanking Trump for this rare opportunity...assuming he takes advantage of it.
Again, I don't disagree with you: folks like Biden and Pelosi can't be shrinking violets, and they also need to communicate.

At the same time, the entire campaign can't be simply about Trump's racism. Almost all of his opponents in 2016 talked about how un-Christian and racist Donald Trump was, and they all went down, one by one. I don't like saying this, but for the white majority that will ultimately decide this race, racism in and of itself isn't necessarily a deal-breaker.
  #70  
Old 07-15-2019, 06:57 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Yeah, agreed. I don't get why people even on the left struggle with that idea of Trump constantly playing N dimension chess.

He's a stupid cunt. He's been elected by stupid cunts (and boosted by a Russian archcynic) because he's a stupid cunt. That's all there is. There's no plan, no strategy, no wheels within wheels. The dumb cunt just says the first thing that comes to his, for lack of a better term, brain at all times - which most often is what the people on teevee said that bellyfelt so true, so true, believe me it felt so true ; but other times is just addled bigoted cunt stuff. FFS the man can't even muster the intellectual fortitude to power through the first page of a two page memo, and you guys think he's Constantine Machiavelli Borgia up in there ? Get a grip.
Trump is grossly, laughably incompetent in most aspects of his job, but he understands the dynamics of power, he understands when his enemies are weak, and he understands how to weaponize race and use it as a divisive tactic. You don't have to be competent, stable, or a chess player to understand these things.
  #71  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:14 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,412
I don't think he does. Understanding one's enemies means empathizing with them on some level. Putting oneself in oneother's shoes (jeez, that was tortured. Sorry). Understanding the dynamics of power means understanding at least the very basics of obfuscation, or grokking sincerity even if it's only in others. Trump cannot do that. He understandsTV ratings and his own popularity by wrestling federation standards. He does not understand what makes others popular or unpopular - he only evaluates others by his own fucked up prism, and the applaudimeter of self-selected venues. That's it. It goes no deeper than that. I doubt he even understands why some people object to his shit.

Also he fucking cancelled a war he was set on starting because some cumrag on FoxNews said he wouldn't get re-elected if he started a war. He ripped the Iran deal because Obama bad. He doesn't understand SHIT. He plans fuck all. He's winging it on some irate chimpanzee level and you're twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to figure what it all really means. Stop that. Just embrace the retardation. I grok that it's humiliating on some level to be ruled by, to have been electorally beaten by a chimpanzee but... it is what it is, and it ain't what it ain't, you feel me ?
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.

Last edited by Kobal2; 07-15-2019 at 07:15 AM.
  #72  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:19 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,412
I mean this is a guy who, to this day, regularly mails PR photos of himself with the hands circled in gold sharpie to some journalist who, 20 years ago, wrote that his hands were small-ish. And you think that's a guy who understands the dynamics of power ? Come the fuck on. He's no id, not super-anything, all ego all the time. You could emulate his decision-making process with a dachsund and a bouncy ball.
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.

Last edited by Kobal2; 07-15-2019 at 07:21 AM.
  #73  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:25 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
I don't think he does. Understanding one's enemies means empathizing with them on some level. Putting oneself in oneother's shoes (jeez, that was tortured. Sorry). Understanding the dynamics of power means understanding at least the very basics of obfuscation, or grokking sincerity even if it's only in others. Trump cannot do that. He understandsTV ratings and his own popularity by wrestling federation standards. He does not understand what makes others popular or unpopular - he only evaluates others by his own fucked up prism, and the applaudimeter of self-selected venues. That's it. It goes no deeper than that. I doubt he even understands why some people object to his shit.

Also he fucking cancelled a war he was set on starting because some cumrag on FoxNews said he wouldn't get re-elected if he started a war. He ripped the Iran deal because Obama bad. He doesn't understand SHIT. He plans fuck all. He's winging it on some irate chimpanzee level and you're twisting yourself into a pretzel trying to figure what it all really means. Stop that. Just embrace the retardation. I grok that it's humiliating on some level to be ruled by, to have been electorally beaten by a chimpanzee but... it is what it is, and it ain't what it ain't, you feel me ?
Most of what you're talking about has nothing to do with his tweets on race. I don't disagree that Trump is an impulsive adolescent, but this is also a man who instinctively knew that he could win a national election using racist themes. And his instincts turned out to be right when all the experts told him he couldn't be more wrong. Trump might not know a lot, but he understands the emotions of naive, confused, ignorant white people -- he understands their fears of the brown man in the same way that Hitler understood and exploited fears of the Jew. White people are Trump's audience, and this was his latest performance. In this way, people write him off at their peril.

Last edited by asahi; 07-15-2019 at 07:27 AM.
  #74  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:36 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
I mean this is a guy who, to this day, regularly mails PR photos of himself with the hands circled in gold sharpie to some journalist who, 20 years ago, wrote that his hands were small-ish. And you think that's a guy who understands the dynamics of power ? Come the fuck on. He's no id, not super-anything, all ego all the time. You could emulate his decision-making process with a dachsund and a bouncy ball.
It's a mistake to believe that demagogues are necessarily competent or that they're chess players. They're quite often dangerously incompetent when it comes to running an enterprise by conventional standards. They're quite often riddled with personal insecurities and psychosis that can be borderline crippling. But what they understand almost on some instinctive level is how to exploit and manipulate people. Trump never has been a real businessman; he's always been an organized criminal. He can't run a legal legitimate enterprise without going bankrupt, so even in his business pursuits, he's just as incompetent and unhinged as he is in his politics. And yet, he survives. He still has "Trump" on buildings all over the world. And he can do this because he has learned how to manipulate people, and he has learned how to use holes in the system to do it. By conventional standards, Trump is an impulsive buffoon, but he has a reptilian instinct for survival.
  #75  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:40 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
Most of what you're talking about has nothing to do with his tweets on race. I don't disagree that Trump is an impulsive adolescent, but this is also a man who instinctively knew that he could win a national election using racist themes.

For one thing, he instinctively knew fuck all. He's been peddling that shit for a long time. Remember when he had his best people investigating in Hawai and they couldn't believe what they were finding out ?
His broke ass clock happened to reverberate with America's broke ass voters. That's it. You presume calculation and savvy when there's just blind luck (or not, considering his investiture photos), the pinpoint accuracy of flinging spaghetti at a wall and making shit up.
Populism is easy. Uniting people against a made up threat is easy. I mean that in utmost seriousness : Hitler was an absolute retard in every single way. So is Trump.



Quote:
Trump might not know a lot, but he understands the emotions of naive, confused, ignorant white people -- he understands their fears of the brown man in the same way that Hitler understood and exploited fears of the Jew. White people are Trump's audience, and this was his latest performance. In this way, people write him off at their peril.

He understands fuck all in the same way Hitler understood fuck all. Both just spewed out the content of their brainsphincters and it happened to either resonate with their electorate, or was stupendously retarded enough that people with which it did not resonate in the least figured it was nevertheless good cover, controllable, an adequate mask and what have you. Hitler was SHIT before he wound up becoming, you know, capital H Hitler. He never planned on becoming capital H Hitler. His ideas were moronic. His understanding of military strategy, economy, social policies were moronic. It's just that at the start he was a useful moron, and later on he was a scary moron with lots of scariers morons with guns at his beck and call.
Hitler wasn't a genius manipulator. Hitler was a retard. The Tiger tank is my cite.
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.
  #76  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:43 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
See, now he's even demanding that his targets apologize, which any sane person can tell is a deliberate attempt to troll them. But more than that, he knows it exerts pressure on the Democratic party. If Joe Biden thought he was going to run a safe, moderate campaign, he can throw that plan in the garbage can. He'll have to up his 'wokeness' game by a lot. If Pelosi thought that she can just build coalitions with moderates and progressives working together in unison without having serious infighting over social justice, she can throw those plans in the garbage can as well. Trump is firing up the progressive radicals, and he knows it. And Biden and Pelosi are going to struggle to contain that energy. I've been talking about polarization for quite a long time now, long before this latest controversy started. Polarization is how Donald Trump re-takes the White House. It's the only way he can win.
  #77  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:44 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,412
(I do apologize for using the word "retard" so freely - I understand it upsets some people, is considered a derogative due to its historical association with people struggling with mental illnesses and so on- again, I'm sorry. I do not mean to offend you guys in any way. It's just the only word that "fits" with my sentiment in my limited foreigner's rhetorico-emotional vocab.)
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.
  #78  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:44 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
Hitler wasn't a genius manipulator. Hitler was a retard.
You've made my point.
  #79  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:44 AM
madmonk28 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 12,301
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
It's a mistake to believe that demagogues are necessarily competent or that they're chess players. They're quite often dangerously incompetent when it comes to running an enterprise by conventional standards. They're quite often riddled with personal insecurities and psychosis that can be borderline crippling. But what they understand almost on some instinctive level is how to exploit and manipulate people. Trump never has been a real businessman; he's always been an organized criminal. He can't run a legal legitimate enterprise without going bankrupt, so even in his business pursuits, he's just as incompetent and unhinged as he is in his politics. And yet, he survives. He still has "Trump" on buildings all over the world. And he can do this because he has learned how to manipulate people, and he has learned how to use holes in the system to do it. By conventional standards, Trump is an impulsive buffoon, but he has a reptilian instinct for survival.
Exactly this. On some level, Trump understands that the natural next step for the GOP was overt white nationalism and that it provides him with an avenue for wealth and power. Instead of talking in the dog whistles that the GOP usually engages in, he just picked up a bullhorn and went all in. It wouldn't surprise me if his base starts chanting "go back where you came from" at his next rallies.
  #80  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:45 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,412
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
See, now he's even demanding that his targets apologize, which any sane person can tell is a deliberate attempt to troll them. But more than that, he knows it exerts pressure on the Democratic party. If Joe Biden thought he was going to run a safe, moderate campaign, he can throw that plan in the garbage can. He'll have to up his 'wokeness' game by a lot. If Pelosi thought that she can just build coalitions with moderates and progressives working together in unison without having serious infighting over social justice, she can throw those plans in the garbage can as well. Trump is firing up the progressive radicals, and he knows it. And Biden and Pelosi are going to struggle to contain that energy. I've been talking about polarization for quite a long time now, long before this latest controversy started. Polarization is how Donald Trump re-takes the White House. It's the only way he can win.

No. Just no. Don't you see ? There's no "more than that". It's just trolling. Because it's funny to be a bully and his base eat that shit up. That's it. You're projecting all that other *words*.
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.

Last edited by Kobal2; 07-15-2019 at 07:45 AM.
  #81  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:53 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobal2 View Post
No. Just no. Don't you see ? There's no "more than that". It's just trolling. Because it's funny to be a bully and his base eat that shit up. That's it. You're projecting all that other *words*.
You can disagree if you want, but I stand by what I said. Going back to your comment about Hitler, I completely agree: in many ways, Hitler was incompetent and a caricature. But he understood how to manipulate people, and that is what made him so dangerous. Trump isn't a mesmerizing orator like Hitler; he's an entertainer with a gladiatorial style and schtick. Regardless, he manipulates and divides people all the same. It's the only way he can survive. This is how he has gone through his entire life.
  #82  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:56 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,411
I don't think he's smart enough to have a strategy. He just spouts off whatever comes into his mind , no filter at all.
  #83  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:57 AM
iiandyiiii's Avatar
iiandyiiii is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 34,990
I think this provides a very easy unifier for the Democratic party -- there's pretty much no risk for Biden or anyone to say "Trump's words are hateful and he should apologize, and I stand with AOC and all people of color against such bigotry".
  #84  
Old 07-15-2019, 07:58 AM
Kobal2's Avatar
Kobal2 is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 18,412
And I don't think he did, either. Manipulation implies doing something for the specific purpose of achieving something. Trump and Hitler just go "Bwuh ? Well I guess *that* works, fuck it, as long as I'm winning Imma play that hand !"
__________________
--- ---
Assume I'm right and you're wrong - we'll both save a lot of time.
  #85  
Old 07-15-2019, 08:07 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,411
I think Trump essentially got lucky when it turned out that many people don't care about the racist things he says. And for some people it's a positive for him to say that stuff.
  #86  
Old 07-15-2019, 08:12 AM
asahi's Avatar
asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: On your computer screen
Posts: 10,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
I think Trump essentially got lucky when it turned out that many people don't care about the racist things he says. And for some people it's a positive for him to say that stuff.
He's lucky in the sense that he picked the right time to use this theme. He couldn't have gotten away with this in 2000, or 2004, but the election of Barack Obama was the first visible sign to white Americans that America was entering a new era, and as much as I hate to say it, for some whites, it was like awakening from a nightmare.
  #87  
Old 07-15-2019, 08:39 AM
Kimstu is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Posts: 22,531
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
He's lucky in the sense that he picked the right time to use this theme. He couldn't have gotten away with this in 2000, or 2004
Heh, remember back in 1996 when a lot of Republicans were really excited about the possibility of black JCS chairman General Colin Powell running for President? Heck, he actually won the NH Republican VP primary on write-in votes.

But Powell endorsed Clinton in the 2016 race, as any Republican with even half a brain or conscience would, so he's dead to the Republican establishment now. They are going all in on the white-resentment sales pitch.
  #88  
Old 07-15-2019, 09:13 AM
Fiveyearlurker is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 6,592
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillFarnaby View Post
When they are critics of Trump, I’ll believe this a valid comparison.
Weird that he didn't single out Tom Malinowski, an actual immigrant (from Poland) and Trump critic. I wonder what colored his perception?
  #89  
Old 07-15-2019, 09:39 AM
Snowboarder Bo's Avatar
Snowboarder Bo is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 26,855
Lindsey Graham pipes in:
Quote:
Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham is advising President Donald Trump to “aim higher” following Trump’s incendiary weekend tweets about four Democratic congresswomen.
Quote:
Still, Graham called the members “anti-Semitic” and “anti-American,” saying that “AOC and this crowd are a bunch of communists. They hate Israel. They hate our own country.”
I’m pretty sure that “aim higher” means “focus on Nancy Pelosi.”
  #90  
Old 07-15-2019, 09:40 AM
Chronos's Avatar
Chronos is offline
Charter Member
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: The Land of Cleves
Posts: 84,439
Trump is definitely very good at something, as evidenced by the fact that he managed to win the Presidency. Though one could certainly argue that his skill is entirely instinctual, without involving any conscious thought or planning.
  #91  
Old 07-15-2019, 09:52 AM
Mundane Super Hero is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 122
It seems that post analysis, people are coming down on either the "he has no filter, he's old/white" side or "this is a smokescreen to distance the Epstein case" side.
Both of those are likely and believable. Still, I thought sharing Stephen King's take on it would be sobering:

"First, you stoke hatred and fear of minorities. Then you round them up and put them in camps. Next, you send out raiding parties to get those who have been driven into hiding. The armbands come next right?"

Cite:
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/steph...JhVJEhnTxNpdCI
  #92  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:23 AM
ThelmaLou's Avatar
ThelmaLou is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Neither here nor there
Posts: 16,215
Quote:
Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I think this provides a very easy unifier for the Democratic party -- there's pretty much no risk for Biden or anyone to say "Trump's words are hateful and he should apologize, and I stand with AOC and all people of color against such bigotry".
Yup. Thump has handed the Dems something they can all (temporarily) agree on.
__________________
"If we're not supposed to dance, why all this music?" Gregory Orr
  #93  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:24 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,411
Trump won in large part because Clinton was a weak candidate who had been bashed pretty much non stop since 1992. And he was very well known from being on TV weekly for over a decade.
  #94  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:39 AM
WillFarnaby's Avatar
WillFarnaby is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 5,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
Weird that he didn't single out Tom Malinowski, an actual immigrant (from Poland) and Trump critic. I wonder what colored his perception?
Probably the fact that he’s never heard of Tommy Boy and the guy gets no media.
  #95  
Old 07-15-2019, 10:42 AM
you with the face is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 12,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
See, now he's even demanding that his targets apologize, which any sane person can tell is a deliberate attempt to troll them. But more than that, he knows it exerts pressure on the Democratic party.
It doesn't exert any pressure on the Democratic party. Pelosi and Sanders came out almost at the same time with their critical tweets, and it took all of 0.4 seconds for them to reach the same conclusion: a swift and unequivocal response--regardless of how moderate or progressive someone is--is what is needed in times like this. So if this is a game that Trump is playing, it might as well be tee-ball.

All the hand wringing over all this scary "pressure"? Expressing worry at the prospect of progressives being fired up? Give me a break. All this chicken little talk is why moderates are likened to cowards so much. The best thing that can happen to Dems is that the progressives are fired up, because that is what gets Dem voters to the polls.
  #96  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:43 AM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by you with the face View Post
All the hand wringing over all this scary "pressure"? Expressing worry at the prospect of progressives being fired up? Give me a break. All this chicken little talk is why moderates are likened to cowards so much. The best thing that can happen to Dems is that the progressives are fired up, because that is what gets Dem voters to the polls.
Agreed.

And this will inspire all Dem voters to support WHOEVER is the nominee. Because now everyone can see what the alternative is - want to pout and stay home because your favorite Dem did not get the nomination? How does 4 more years of idiot-racist-boy sound?

Trump is not playing some kind of strategy here. Trump is blathering. Trump is sundowning. Trump is just saying what the drunk asshole in the bar says when his buddies talk about "them minorities". I imagine Trump is having in depth chats with luminaries such as Stephen Miller, where they come up with funny bon mots like this.
There is no "strategy". Just spew from his mouth-hole.

In politics, there is always strategy going on, so I see where it is tempting to try to grab onto a post hoc rationalization for what comes out of Trump's lie-chamber. But there is none. He just gurgles up another bolus of pus-flavored lie, and on to the next.
  #97  
Old 07-15-2019, 11:56 AM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,411
Some Dems will still stay home, hopefully not enough to make a difference. I bet most of the stay home Dems will be Bernie fans still mad about 2016.
  #98  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:06 PM
Euphonious Polemic is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 11,674
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bijou Drains View Post
Some Dems will still stay home, hopefully not enough to make a difference. I bet most of the stay home Dems will be Bernie fans still mad about 2016.
Then they are not "Bernie fans". They are going to have to come to terms with the fact that for the next election - if they stay home - they are Trump supporters. Plain and simple.

Any progressive that does not vote next election because the nominee is not "pure enough" to suit them, or has some imperfection that they do not like..... Is a Trump Supporter. They might as well put on a MAGA hat and scream for minorities to be deported.

Any Dem who bitches about flaws in the chosen Dem candidate should ask themselves why they are supporting a Republican mentally deficient fascist wanna-be who is about as suitable for the job as a drunken toddler with a loaded gun.

Because this coming election is about getting as many D's into office as humanly possible. Full stop.
  #99  
Old 07-15-2019, 12:18 PM
Bijou Drains is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 9,411
I think one advantage the GOP has is some of them will hold their nose and vote for Trump because of judges, not many will stay home.
  #100  
Old 07-15-2019, 01:05 PM
E-DUB's Avatar
E-DUB is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 4,676
This is pretty much literally "Go back to Africa" or it would be if trump actually knew that Somalia is in Africa.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:18 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@straightdope.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Copyright © 2018 STM Reader, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017