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Old 07-22-2019, 04:17 PM
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What exactly is "white male culture"?


Part of the present-day brouhaha in the US over immigration (etc) seems to stem from fears held by whites, especially white males, over losing majority as non-white immigrants enter the country, and/or non-white birth rates exceed those of whites. This is apparently a very real existential and/or cultural threat to a certain swath of this group, and has of course been credited with driving some of the current populist enthusiasm, not just in the US but abroad as well. I've wondered at the perceived consequences from this "threat." For instance, what kind of "white male culture" is really under threat of being diminished? For some reason, I have a hard time associating strong fixed traits to whites and/or white males. Correct my ignorance (not trying to be a wise guy--spirit of open inquiry and all that). How would you define "white male culture" in the US (the good, the bad, and the ugly)?


From a brief search on related:

nymag article, on white anxiety--just skimmed this, but it seemed pretty good; on the complexities of such anxiety feeding into (some) white attitudes on race and immigration, and some helpful suggestions on what to do about it, for all concerned (but be warned, for those who prefer info from sources as unbiased as reasonably possible, it's from nymag, which leans fairly solidly left)

article on a Pew survey--a survey on white attitudes toward population inversion, and some discussion; it's from USA Today, but has some substance
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Old 07-22-2019, 04:48 PM
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While there is probably some validity to such studies, I try to stay away from making stereotypes of classes of people.
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Old 07-22-2019, 05:29 PM
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Never thought I would ever say this, but if you know one white male, you know......one white male.

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Old 07-22-2019, 05:40 PM
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I used to think "white male culture" was just aversion to affirmative action with a racist undertone, a lesser form of southern privilege, much like the opposite of Black Power. Sort of a "I like white people stuff" thing mixed with the unfortunate idea that cultural tolerance is antithetical to "white people stuff".

The 2011 Norway attacks gave "white male culture" a more decidedly violent and antisocial theme, and the "white male" voting bloc during the 2016 presidential campaign brought the ideology closer to the doorstep, or rather shined light on it.

~Max

Last edited by Max S.; 07-22-2019 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 07-22-2019, 05:54 PM
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I used to think it was, eg: Archie Bunker; now it's more like Eric Cartman.

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Old 07-22-2019, 06:23 PM
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https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

31% of white men voted for Clinton, vs 62% for Trump

Among college grad white men it was 53-39 for Trump.

For white men w/o college it was 71-23 for Trump.

So even among white men, about 1/3 are democrats. Among college educated white men almost 4 in 10 are democratic voters. So white men aren't a monolith. However white culture, especially white male culture, does hold onto its privilege strongly.

Anyway what is 'white male culture'? WEB DuBois described it as the psychological wage of whiteness.

https://nonsite.org/editorial/du-boi...s-of-whiteness

Quote:
It must be remembered that the white group of laborers, while they received a low wage, were compensated in part by a sort of public and psychological wage. They were given public deference and titles of courtesy because they were white. They were admitted freely with all classes of white people to public functions, public parks, and the best schools. The police were drawn from their ranks, and the courts, dependent on their votes, treated them with such leniency as to encourage lawlessness. Their vote selected public officials, and while this had small effect upon the economic situation, it had great effect upon their personal treatment and the deference shown them. White schoolhouses were the best in the community, and conspicuously placed, and they cost anywhere from twice to ten times as much per capita as the colored schools. The newspapers specialized on news that flattered the poor whites and almost utterly ignored the Negro except in crime and ridicule. (Black Reconstruction [1935], 700-701)
There is a sense of status and privilege that comes from being a white man. White men are vastly over represented in positions of power and influence. Only about 30% of americans are white men. But the % of judges, police officers, politicians, billionaires, CEOs, etc who are white men are far far higher than 30%. I believe in national politics, around 65% of politicians are white men (I'm sure 20-30 years ago it was closer to 80-90% who were white men). Scrolling through the richest 20 people on the forbes 400 list, 15 are white men. The other 5 are brown or female.

You can even see the sense of status and privilege given to white men in our politics. When white men are left behind by the economy (coal miners for example) its a national emergency. Meanwhile service sector jobs are disappearing even faster than coal miner jobs but nobody cares. One reason nobody cares is those jobs are full of minorities and women.

When the opiate epidemic hits white men, its a national emergency and needs government intervention. When the crack epidemic hit the black neighborhoods it was because the people there were animals and we needed to send in violent cops.

When white men feel unheard in politics, everyone acts like 'how can we appeal to white men in the rust belt'. However black people have felt ignored in politics for years, and nobody cares.

Stuff like that is a subtle privilege. And since status is finite and relative, a lot of white people want to hang onto that bit of status. The status to have their problems taken a little more seriously. To know that they are over-represented in the public and private sector in positions of power and influence. To know if they have problems, people are a little more likely to care and try to help them. To know that people like them are considered more valid, more authentic, more 'american' and just generally better than everyone else. To know that the positions of the highest status and power are held by people who look like them.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:32 PM
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And some people will say 'I've never felt any status and privilege by being a white male'.

Maybe so, but it has never counted against you either the way being female or non-white (or muslim) would count against you. You by default are accepted everywhere. You don't have to try twice as hard to prove yourself to anyone.

When a white man commits terrorism, you don't have to worry that people will say 'all white men are dangerous' the way when a black person commits a crime people say all black people are dangerous, or when a muslim commits a crime people say all muslims are dangerous or when an immigrant commits a crime people say all immigrants are dangerous. Thats white privilege.

If you have a powerful and important job, nobody questions your competence to be there off the bat.
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Old 07-22-2019, 06:50 PM
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I think a better question would to be ask those who are feeling anxious over changing demographics to describe those cultural elements they are afraid of losing the most.
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:38 PM
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
...

When a white man commits terrorism, you don't have to worry that people will say 'all white men are dangerous' the way when a black person commits a crime people say all black people are dangerous, or when a muslim commits a crime people say all muslims are dangerous or when an immigrant commits a crime people say all immigrants are dangerous. Thats white privilege.

...
Post #4: "The 2011 Norway attacks gave "white male culture" a more decidedly violent and antisocial theme"
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Settimo
For instance, what kind of "white male culture" is really under threat of being diminished? For some reason, I have a hard time associating strong fixed traits to whites and/or white males. [...] How would you define "white male culture" in the US (the good, the bad, and the ugly)?
It's not about "white male culture" as a specific cultural heritage per se, it's about a culturally conditioned expectation of white male dominance.

That expectation is not unique to white males themselves, of course. Because of the historical legacy of patriarchy and European colonialism/racism, pretty much everybody who lives in a society with a significant proportion of white males is conditioned on some level to expect that white males will be, as Wesley Clark described, the default and dominant individuals in that society.

That's why a lot of people---again, not just white males themselves---feel agitated at the prospect of demographic changes that seem to threaten the socially dominant status of white males. Even if they consciously reject overt racist and sexist prejudice against people who are not white males, they are still affected by this culturally conditioned expectation that white males "ought" to be in positions of superior importance and authority relative to the non-white-male people around them.

And when those positions are reversed to any serious extent (exceeding a small proportion of token exceptions as societal lip service to ideals of "equality"), they feel that there is something fundamentally "wrong" with society.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:02 AM
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Nearly all (definitely the overwhelming majority) of white people I know all share the same sentiment that I feel about "being white" —

a) In terms of our own identity that we carry around inside our heads, we want nothing whatsoever to do with "being white people". It's an ideology, not a heritage. (A heritage or ethnic identity is "Scottish" or "Lithuanian" or "Hungarian" or "Welch" etc etc). We're not into it.

b) But we acknowledge being viewed as white and being accorded the privileges and advantages thereof. We know racism gives us unfair advantages and we're not trying to pretend we don't know about it. We seldom have a clear sense of what we should be doing about it and often feel powerless to have an effect but we feel a sense of responsibility as designated-white people in a racist environment.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:46 AM
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A benign form of it is to never have experienced fear of sexual assault or mistreatment by law enforcement.

More malignant is to deny that women and minorities ever experience such things.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:47 AM
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White male culture is whatever people who don’t like white men say it is.
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Old 07-23-2019, 03:00 AM
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A benign form of it is to never have experienced fear of sexual assault or mistreatment by law enforcement.

More malignant is to deny that women and minorities ever experience such things.
Some people accept their preferential treatment without blinking an eye or not even realize they're getting it. This applies regardless of why they're getting such treatment, but it tends to correlate to never believing that others experience the opposite, even though sometimes the preferential treatment itself is linked and simultaneous with its opposite: "my being assumed to be the person in charge is perfectly natural and expected, I don't understand why my shorter and less imposing-looking manager has a problem with it."
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:19 AM
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So what will replace it? Do you really see some sort of perfectly equal world where everyones views and ways are accepted as equal?
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:39 AM
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https://www.cnn.com/election/2016/results/exit-polls

...When the opiate epidemic hits white men, its a national emergency and needs ...
Or maybe it's because one is legal and the other illegal? The opiate 'epidemic' hit all classes, and all races. When you try and frame things the way you do to garner the support you want for the causes you champion, you lose a whole host of people who were otherwise listening.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:01 AM
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Or maybe it's because one is legal and the other illegal? The opiate 'epidemic' hit all classes, and all races. When you try and frame things the way you do to garner the support you want for the causes you champion, you lose a whole host of people who were otherwise listening.
Here's a link to an NIH study that concluded the following:

Quote:
Over the period 1979 to 2015, age-standardized opioid mortality rates increased for both the white and the black populations. Although rates of increase were initially similar in the two populations and driven by heroin, the period 1993–2010 saw a rapid increase in opioid mortality for whites, largely due to prescription painkillers. Since 2010, opioid mortality has been increasing rapidly in both groups, largely driven by increases in heroin and synthetic opioids.
It's a pretty thorough study that shows the increase of deaths among whites has increased more dramatically than among blacks over the past 15 years.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:06 AM
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Here's a link to an NIH study that concluded the following:



It's a pretty thorough study that shows the increase of deaths among whites has increased more dramatically than among blacks over the past 15 years.
Great, so more than one reason for all the hub bub for the opioid 'crisis' and not just because it hurts the white folk as opposed to the illegal crack epidemic which resulted in police crackdowns.
That was the point I was trying to get Wesley to see. When bias gets in the way of research and argumentation, you assign causal relationships to things that make no sense (when looked at closer)
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Old 07-23-2019, 10:31 AM
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Great, so more than one reason for all the hub bub for the opioid 'crisis' and not just because it hurts the white folk as opposed to the illegal crack epidemic which resulted in police crackdowns.
That was the point I was trying to get Wesley to see. When bias gets in the way of research and argumentation, you assign causal relationships to things that make no sense (when looked at closer)
If the cited study shows anything it's that there was an opiate abuse problem across all populations. The prevailing course of treatment (reflected disproportionately in the black population) has traditionally been incarceration. Given the cited study, it's at least interesting to observe that while illegal opiate abuse rose dramatically in the white population, the reaction was to declare a 'national crisis' with funding for treatment. I'd like to think that this was because of the lessons learned from previous mistakes. I really would like to think that and there may well be something in it. But I'm afraid rose colored glasses are not my style.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:18 AM
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If the cited study shows anything it's that there was an opiate abuse problem across all populations. The prevailing course of treatment (reflected disproportionately in the black population) has traditionally been incarceration. Given the cited study, it's at least interesting to observe that while illegal opiate abuse rose dramatically in the white population, the reaction was to declare a 'national crisis' with funding for treatment. I'd like to think that this was because of the lessons learned from previous mistakes. I really would like to think that and there may well be something in it. But I'm afraid rose colored glasses are not my style.
Opiate abuse (legally obtained drugs) resulted in an increase in the white population becoming addicted and something was done (or is being done) about it yes?

He conflated this epidemic with the black population becoming addicted to crack cocaine and why didn't the populace do anything about it then? Must be white culture!!

I then posited that maybe the difference was the legality
of the two and not the race of the individuals.
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Opiate abuse (legally obtained drugs) resulted in an increase in the white population becoming addicted and something was done (or is being done) about it yes?

He conflated this epidemic with the black population becoming addicted to crack cocaine and why didn't the populace do anything about it then? Must be white culture!!

I then posited that maybe the difference was the legality
of the two and not the race of the individuals.
White people acquire opiates illegally too. Were you not aware of this? People buy pills on the black market all the time. You can't really think all white opiate abusers got their drugs via a prescription from a doctor, can you?
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Old 07-23-2019, 11:53 AM
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Opiate abuse (legally obtained drugs) resulted in an increase in the white population becoming addicted and something was done (or is being done) about it yes?

He conflated this epidemic with the black population becoming addicted to crack cocaine and why didn't the populace do anything about it then? Must be white culture!!

I then posited that maybe the difference was the legality
of the two and not the race of the individuals.
I can't make you read the study I cited, but perhaps I can ask you to consider examining Figure 2 and Figure 3.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:29 PM
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White people acquire opiates illegally too. Were you not aware of this? People buy pills on the black market all the time. You can't really think all white opiate abusers got their drugs via a prescription from a doctor, can you?
The opiates in question are legal drugs, crack cocaine is not ...
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:32 PM
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I can't make you read the study I cited, but perhaps I can ask you to consider examining Figure 2 and Figure 3.
Ok, I looked at the figures. The legal opiates are equally affecting both groups.

How does that affect whether or not white culture stepped in to try and help this legal phenomenon , whereas they did not for an illegally obtained drug?

And yes, I am aware that pills get sold but this addiction crisis isn't solely beholden to illegal drugs. Maybe someone could study whether the majority of addicts on opiates (the legal ones) were obtained legally or not?

Or were you or others positing that if the crack crisis had affected white people, that the government would have stepped in?

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Old 07-23-2019, 12:37 PM
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The opiates in question are legal drugs, crack cocaine is not ...
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
Ok, I looked at the figures. The legal opiates are equally affecting both groups.
Again, the cited study contradicts your claims. White population is addicted in great numbers, per 100,000, to illegal substances. The same illegal substances that are abused by the black population. It is clearly a larger epidemic in the white population for the cited period of study.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1
How does that affect whether or not white culture stepped in to try and help this legal phenomenon , whereas they did not for an illegally obtained drug?

And yes, I am aware that pills get sold but this addiction crisis isn't solely beholden to illegal drugs. Maybe someone could study whether the majority of addicts on opiates (the legal ones) were obtained legally or not?
Treatment is not determined on whether or not you obtained the substance legally. Perhaps those stats are being tracked but treatment is not granted/denied on that basis, AFAIK. Perhaps you have data to the contrary? Point is, when it became a recognized epidemic in the white population, a national emergency was declared and treatment options made available in a way that was not offered to the black population in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kearsen1
Or were you or others positing that if the crack crisis had affected white people, that the government would have stepped in?
Hard to be certain. But it appears to be pointing in that direction. Of course, it's unfair to completely dismiss the lessons learned in the recent past with respect to rates of incarceration for drug possession/use.
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Old 07-23-2019, 12:50 PM
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Again, the cited study contradicts your claims. White population is addicted in great numbers, per 100,000, to illegal substances. The same illegal substances that are abused by the black population. It is clearly a larger epidemic in the white population for the cited period of study.
But it doesn't matter the rate of illegal anything. His thesis was that white culture kept America from stepping in to help the crack riddled black population, but somehow when it's legal opioids, white culture did step up! because it greatly affected the white population.

That is and was the basis for my entire argument. For which you have disproved nothing. In fact, you've helped it.

My counter argument was that it was possibly about legality vs illegality. Or maybe we (as a people) just got better and did better recognizing a need.
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Old 07-23-2019, 01:00 PM
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I think there is little argument that as a society we are somewhat better at how we handle drug related (non-violent) offenders. That said, it's naive of you to suggest that illegal drug abuse is 'besides the point' in this conversation. I think it is entirely the point. As is the sudden rise in rates of abuse in the white population.
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Old 07-23-2019, 02:35 PM
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I would like to also add that one reason the opioid epidemic hit the white community harder had to do with racial bias in prescribing. Doctors were generally freer with opiate prescriptions if the patient was white. Another facet of white privilege, white people in pain is a problem that must be fixed, black people in pain is status quo. And probably a lot of unconscious bias based on the stereotype of a drug addict as a person of color.

https://www.journalacs.org/article/S...790-7/fulltext

Also, there were a lot of heroin dealers from small towns in Western Mexico that ran black tar operation in mid-major cities ( Salt Lake, Columbus, Charlotte ). They refused to sell to black people as a matter of policy. This was covered extensively in the book Dreamland-A True Tale of America’s Opiate Epidemic by Sam Quinones

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Old 07-23-2019, 04:07 PM
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It's not about "white male culture" as a specific cultural heritage per se, it's about a culturally conditioned expectation of white male dominance.
To put it another way, white male culture was American culture in the 1950s. White males could assume dominance over women and minorities, all of whom knew their place. In fact I'd call it White Male Christian Culture, because before the war Jews should know their place also. I didn't get much of this living in a Jewish majority neighborhood, but it was there.
Why some people are so nostalgic for the '50s.

I still see it, even in California, where older white residents of my neighborhood are a bit uncomfortable with those people moving in, even if those people are buying million dollar houses. It's not blatant around here, but it is there.
I think those who live in less diverse areas suffer from this more.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:45 PM
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The opiates in question are legal drugs, crack cocaine is not ...
Fentanyl is what is killing people and that is an illegal opiate obtained from china.

Also Rx pills are illegal when bought on the black market.

As was mentioned upthread, physicians are more willing to give opiates to white patients than black patients, and this is yet another form of white privilege (along with things like easier times getting loans, nicer police interactions, not all being painted as terrorists when one commits a crime, more callbacks for job interviews).

Status and privilege are finite and relative. For one to win, another must lose. Lots of white people don't want to give up that relative status and privilege. Throw the privilege of being christian or male on top of it, and people are very defensive.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:55 PM
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If you find yourself saying "well, actually..." quite a bit, you may be a white male.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:11 PM
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article on a Pew survey--a survey on white attitudes toward population inversion, and some discussion; it's from USA Today, but has some substance
Here's the study for anyone not interested in retreads: https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2019...n-many-fronts/

I too am a bit puzzled by what "weaken American customs and values" even means. More taco trucks? Phone trees that ask you Para español, oprima dos? Welfare all the way down? Brown people marrying our daughters? People working harder than (general you) you for less money, and an impending sense of irrelevance? Pew didn't dig.

I do like some American customs and values. Like getting my groceries bagged for me. And stores being open at odd hours. And pie. Maybe these are under threat and I didn't even know it.
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Old 07-23-2019, 05:12 PM
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If you find yourself saying "well, actually..." quite a bit, you may be a white male.
[puts down the jar of mayonnaise and craft microbrew]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=A1zLzWtULig
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:02 PM
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So what will replace it? Do you really see some sort of perfectly equal world where everyones views and ways are accepted as equal?
Will the world magically become "perfectly equal" if we (all of us, not just white males) learn to let go of our culturally conditioned expectation of white male dominance? No, of course not.

Will the world be somewhat better if we learn to let go of our culturally conditioned expectation of white male dominance? Yup. If we truly support the principles of democracy and equality, we should not be constantly making mental reservations and keeping our collective thumb on the scales of society to add the rider "as long as white males still remain first among equals".

Your question is very telling, because it highlights a fundamental assumption made by a lot of people who ostensibly support the principles of democracy and equality. Deep down, they assume that the real choice is not between equality and inequality, but between inequality that favors one group and inequality that favors another. The only way they can picture a world in which white males are no longer the default/dominant members of society is to imagine white males being replaced by a different group (maybe nonwhite males, maybe females in general) as the default/dominant members of society.

But that says a lot more about them than it does about the actual views or intentions of the people speaking out against our culturally conditioned expectation of white male dominance.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:44 PM
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Status and privilege are finite and relative. For one to win, another must lose.
In the case of the various criminal justice system disparities, no one wins except the prison-industrial complex and those few racists who enjoy the superiority despite the extra cost to society. Everyone else is paying more money in taxes and having a less productive workforce.
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Old 07-23-2019, 07:49 PM
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Eddie Murphy actually did a pretty good take on white male privilege way back in 1984.

As a white male I'll tell you, it's gonna be hard to give all that up.
  #39  
Old 07-23-2019, 08:26 PM
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To put it another way, white male culture was American culture in the 1950s. White males could assume dominance over women and minorities, all of whom knew their place. In fact I'd call it White Male Christian Culture, because before the war Jews should know their place also. I didn't get much of this living in a Jewish majority neighborhood, but it was there.
Why some people are so nostalgic for the '50s.

I still see it, even in California, where older white residents of my neighborhood are a bit uncomfortable with those people moving in, even if those people are buying million dollar houses. It's not blatant around here, but it is there.
I think those who live in less diverse areas suffer from this more.
I've seen this claimed in these threads without any support, but in my entire life when someone talks about how the 50s were pretty good, I have never heard a single person mention or allude to the fact that "blacks knew their place" or "we kept the Jews down" or any similar sentiment.

What I generally heard was the fact that any able bodied man could get a job and support a whole family in a middle class lifestyle, saving for kids' college, owning a house that was paid for on a 5 year mortgage, and having enough money for the extras in the community. There was no need to pay for cable, internet, and cell phone bills. Vacations usually meant going to a nearby lake or state park and the constant pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" wasn't nearly as prevalent.

At its nadir, nostalgia for the 50s peaked in the 1980s as captured in Back to the Future. The high crime rate in the 1980s made people look back to the 50s as a better time. Recall that nothing in the movie showed how good the 50s were because of blacks.

I'm not saying that nobody at all wishes for that time for racist reasons, but I've just never heard it and it seems as if there were many other positives that without any support, the accusation shouldn't be made that people primarily look to the 50s for these reasons.
  #40  
Old 07-23-2019, 11:31 PM
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What I generally heard was the fact that any able bodied man could get a job and support a whole family in a middle class lifestyle, saving for kids' college, owning a house that was paid for on a 5 year mortgage, and having enough money for the extras in the community. There was no need to pay for cable, internet, and cell phone bills. Vacations usually meant going to a nearby lake or state park and the constant pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" wasn't nearly as prevalent.
This is a very one-sided picture of 1950s life, heavily distorted by nostalgia. During the 1950s themselves, a major cultural theme in the American middle class was concern about the "rat race" and social pressure to advance in wealth and status. The 1955 classic novel The Man in the Gray Flannel Suit expresses this:
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Almost all the houses were occupied by couples with young children, and few people considered Greentree Avenue a permanent stop—the place was just a crossroads where families waited until they could afford to move on to something better. [...] The biggest parties of all were moving-out parties, given by those who finally were able to buy a bigger house. Of course there were a few men in the area who had given up hope of rising in the world, and a few who had moved from worse surroundings and considered Greentree Avenue a desirable end of the road, but they and their families suffered a kind of social ostracism. On Greentree Avenue, contentment was an object of contempt.
"Keeping up with the Joneses" is a phrase that long pre-dates the 1950s and in fact, according to Google Ngram viewer, its use actually peaked in the late 1950s. So you are dead wrong about the notion of conspicuous consumption and social/economic advancement not being as much of a thing in the 1950s. If middle-class Americans back then didn't have to pay cable, internet and cell phone bills, they had to pay maids' wages, club dues, and other expenses; and the cost of items like washing machines, televisions, telephone service, etc., was higher back then (in inflation-adjusted dollars) than their counterparts today.

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Originally Posted by UltraVires
At its nadir, nostalgia for the 50s peaked in the 1980s as captured in Back to the Future. The high crime rate in the 1980s made people look back to the 50s as a better time. Recall that nothing in the movie showed how good the 50s were because of blacks.
I don't think it's a coincidence that the movie that you point to as the apex of '50s nostalgia among white people hardly shows any black people at all. And its sequel even uses black people as an indicator of social and economic decay:
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Remember in Back to the Future II when Marty thinks he’s back to the normal 1985 but when he goes to sneak back into his house he finds a black family living in it? [...] The neighborhood is all trashed with burnt out cars and houses that have been foreclosed ‘n shit and, of course, this is where a black family lives. Also when the father comes running in to investigate he says, “freeze sucka!” and the kids have a Thriller poster on the wall. I guess the whole town was turned into a ghetto but to make sure the audience understands they chose to introduce that fact to us with a black family.
Of course most people who express this kind of blinkered nostalgia for an imaginary 1950s don't consciously think that what they want is a more racist and sexist time. What they mostly want in that regard is the unchallenged privilege of not having to think about racism and sexism, or openly examine the extent of their own racist and sexist biases, or the ways in which they benefit by not being the targets of racism and/or sexism in a traditionally racist and sexist culture.

Last edited by Kimstu; 07-23-2019 at 11:33 PM.
  #41  
Old 07-24-2019, 01:00 AM
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I've seen this claimed in these threads without any support, but in my entire life when someone talks about how the 50s were pretty good, I have never heard a single person mention or allude to the fact that "blacks knew their place" or "we kept the Jews down" or any similar sentiment.
There's nothing wrong with identifying a stereotype with a zeitgeist, so long as you acknowledge the fact that it is a stereotype. That it wasn't all peaches and creams in the '50s has no bearing on the number of people who identify "white male culture" with the stereotypical white evangelical male from that day and age.

~Max
  #42  
Old 07-24-2019, 01:55 AM
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What I generally heard was the fact that any able bodied
...White...
Quote:
man could get a job and support a whole family in a middle class lifestyle, saving for kids' college, owning a house that was paid for on a 5 year mortgage, and having enough money for the extras in the community.
Quote:
Vacations usually meant going to a nearby lake or state park
Yeah...about that...and better be careful driving to said park
  #43  
Old 07-24-2019, 05:43 AM
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Fentanyl is what is killing people and that is an illegal opiate obtained from china.

Also Rx pills are illegal when bought on the black market.
My understanding is fentanyl is often sold as something else, e.g. cut and pressed into pills marked as some legit (if prescribed) drug. A junky who got hooked by her doctor after she tore her ACL and later turned to the black market to keep from feeling sick is way more sympathetic than one who started out by trying to get high in the first place. That is a prime difference between the two epidemics. Another is drug overdose death rate and scale; more of us know someone affected. And a third is violence and gang activity.

Never mind the decades of addiction science, which was barely a term being used thirty years ago. We simply know more now about addiction, and at least some of that had rubbed off on the general population.

That doesn't preclude any differences because of who is addicted, and I'm sure that contributes. But the the attribution thus far had been grossly unscientific, which is expected for these boards.
  #44  
Old 07-24-2019, 06:51 AM
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A bologna sandwich, with Kraft Singles and Miracle Whip, on Wonder Bread.

That's what pops into my head when I hear the words "white male culture", anyway.
  #45  
Old 07-24-2019, 11:56 AM
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I've seen this claimed in these threads without any support, but in my entire life when someone talks about how the 50s were pretty good, I have never heard a single person mention or allude to the fact that "blacks knew their place" or "we kept the Jews down" or any similar sentiment.

What I generally heard was the fact that any able bodied man could get a job and support a whole family in a middle class lifestyle, saving for kids' college, owning a house that was paid for on a 5 year mortgage, and having enough money for the extras in the community. There was no need to pay for cable, internet, and cell phone bills. Vacations usually meant going to a nearby lake or state park and the constant pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" wasn't nearly as prevalent.

At its nadir, nostalgia for the 50s peaked in the 1980s as captured in Back to the Future. The high crime rate in the 1980s made people look back to the 50s as a better time. Recall that nothing in the movie showed how good the 50s were because of blacks.

I'm not saying that nobody at all wishes for that time for racist reasons, but I've just never heard it and it seems as if there were many other positives that without any support, the accusation shouldn't be made that people primarily look to the 50s for these reasons.
Able bodied white man, you mean.
I'm not sure what your objection is. Are you denying that the oppression existed in the '50s? Most anti-Semites avoided explicit anti-Semitism back then, but Woody Allen was still joking about restricted clubs at the end of the decade.
Or is it that '50s lovers don't explicitly love it because of the discrimination back then. True enough, but they do say that my type had it good, and don't consider that their type didn't.
  #46  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:01 PM
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I'm not saying that nobody at all wishes for that time for racist reasons, but I've just never heard it and it seems as if there were many other positives that without any support, the accusation shouldn't be made that people primarily look to the 50s for these reasons.
Actually, I think most of these old white guys are nostalgic for the ‘50’s because they have fond memories of the days when they had a full head of hair and a dick that worked.

The one they never mention was the thing that made all this American Greatness possible, which was a top marginal tax rate of 91% . IMHO, it made employers less greedy and made it possible for your 50’s dad to support a family on a single blue collar income.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 07-24-2019 at 02:01 PM.
  #47  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:51 PM
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And some people will say 'I've never felt any status and privilege by being a white male'.
....
Sure there's some. But compared to just being born in the USA, it's pretty damn small. We dont realize how privileged we are, all of us here in the uSA.

White males are too diverse a group to have a culture, there's the stoners, the ex-hippies, the Alt-righters, the millennials, the gun culture dudes, etc etc etc.

Is there a white female culture?

I am not even sure if there is a black male culture, even.
  #48  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:52 PM
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Tiger Woods.
  #49  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:54 PM
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....

What I generally heard was the fact that any able bodied man could get a job and support a whole family in a middle class lifestyle, saving for kids' college, owning a house that was paid for on a 5 year mortgage, and having enough money for the extras in the community. There was no need to pay for cable, internet, and cell phone bills. Vacations usually meant going to a nearby lake or state park and the constant pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" wasn't nearly as prevalent.
....
We had a 20 year mortgage, and both parents worked. In fact in many of the middle class households in Gardena CA, both parents worked. Latchkey kids were the norm.
  #50  
Old 07-24-2019, 02:57 PM
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White privileged is mostly being given the benefit of doubt, a second chance. White culture is expecting that benefit of the doubt.
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