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  #201  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:14 AM
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We're so fucked when we have a Republican investigator say that the president sought out help from Russia, benefited from it, lied to cover it up, and obstructed justice to hinder the investigation and a significant number of people think not only that it's not a big deal, but that it's a huge win for the Republicans.
I wonder what would have happened if all of this had come out at one time in a single bombshell rather than the drips ad drabs that let us all get used to the creeping insanity of the situation we are in.
  #202  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:23 AM
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I have to say that, although I believed I was somewhat immune to propaganda, I really fell for the narrative that Mueller was some sort of heavyweight operator. I never heard him speak before this testimony. He was lavished with praise and I believed in the extraordinary myth of his competence. In this testimony, I saw him for what he really is. A career bureaucrat. I’ve seen more competence from part-time postmen. He looked like he would be unsure of himself ordering toast at a diner.

I still believe he is among the best and brightest government has to offer at his level. That is the sad state of the US regime which is clearly in decline. The media hacks played off each other and built him into quite literally a square-jawed DeNiro character. They really did him a disservice.

The hard-nosed G-Men would be rolling over in their graves. Now that Russiagate has finally been interred forevermore, please let this man retire in peace. I am begging the holdouts to move on with their life as well.
  #203  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:36 AM
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Due to an amazing set of circumstances, Donald Trump was surrounded by greedy and treasonous slimeballs. He is the innocent and virginal Snow White at the center of a Mongolian clusterfuck. Mueller was forbidden to indict, which is solid proof that Trump isn't guilty.

How is it that you guys can type, but cannot read?
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  #204  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:54 AM
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Out of curiosity, does Trump's inner circle actually believe their own bullshit, or are they aware of what they're doing. Just using Sarah Huckabee Sanders as an example, who tweeted:

"Didn’t take long for Mueller to once again vindicate President @realDonaldTrump. No collusion. No obstruction. And now Mueller all but admits it was all along a total witch hunt"

Now, it doesn't take a lot to show that this is clearly untrue. Mueller specifically said the opposite of this. Does Sanders actually believe her message, do you think? I just can't quite get my head around the psychology here.
  #205  
Old 07-25-2019, 08:59 AM
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They believe that bullshit as earnestly as OJ believes there's a "real killer" out there somewhere.
  #206  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:20 AM
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The inner circle believes in power. Bullshit is just a tool to gain and retain power.

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I have to say that, although I believed I was somewhat immune to propaganda, I really fell for the narrative that Mueller was some sort of heavyweight operator.
The person of interest is Trump, not Mueller. But, whatever it takes to distract from the actual report and testimony, I guess.

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Now that Russiagate has finally been interred forevermore
A conclusion inconsistent with the facts.
  #207  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:37 AM
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The inner circle believes in power. Bullshit is just a tool to gain and retain power.

The person of interest is Trump, not Mueller. But, whatever it takes to distract from the actual report and testimony, I guess.

A conclusion inconsistent with the facts.
Iím trying to distract from the testimony by referencing it directly. Interesting theory.

I really wish I had never heard the testimony. Now I know that I am susceptible to propaganda when I considered myself above it.
  #208  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:44 AM
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Iím trying to distract from the testimony by referencing it directly.
Your discussion was about Mueller himself.

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Now I know that I am susceptible to propaganda when I considered myself above it.
Maybe not in the way you think you are.
  #209  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:47 AM
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Apparently not. That was Ken Buck I believe talking about legal theory and should Mueller put in the report if Trump should be indicted after leaving office.
I didn't have my glasses on and didn't know he was a Republican, but WTF! Is he planning a run against Trump?

Cuz he is beatable in the general.

Last edited by dropzone; 07-25-2019 at 09:51 AM.
  #210  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
Out of curiosity, does Trump's inner circle actually believe their own bullshit, or are they aware of what they're doing. Just using Sarah Huckabee Sanders as an example, who tweeted:

"Didnít take long for Mueller to once again vindicate President @realDonaldTrump. No collusion. No obstruction. And now Mueller all but admits it was all along a total witch hunt"

Now, it doesn't take a lot to show that this is clearly untrue. Mueller specifically said the opposite of this. Does Sanders actually believe her message, do you think? I just can't quite get my head around the psychology here.
Maybe she's engaging in some sort of ironic performance art.
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  #211  
Old 07-25-2019, 09:56 AM
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Article I, Section 2: "The House of Representatives...shall have the sole Power of Impeachment."
Subject to ...
  #212  
Old 07-25-2019, 10:21 AM
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Subject to ...
Nothing? Where are you going with this?

The last paragraph of Article 1 Section 2 of the US Constitution in it's entirety is... "The House of Representatives shall chuse their Speaker and other Officers; and shall have the sole Power of Impeachment."

That's the end of it. There is no, "Subject to..."
  #213  
Old 07-25-2019, 10:28 AM
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Out of curiosity, does Trump's inner circle actually believe their own bullshit, or are they aware of what they're doing. Just using Sarah Huckabee Sanders as an example, who tweeted:

"Didnít take long for Mueller to once again vindicate President @realDonaldTrump. No collusion. No obstruction. And now Mueller all but admits it was all along a total witch hunt"

Now, it doesn't take a lot to show that this is clearly untrue. Mueller specifically said the opposite of this. Does Sanders actually believe her message, do you think? I just can't quite get my head around the psychology here.
The psychology is simple. The average person isn't going to read 100s of pages of government reports. The average person isn't going to listen to 7 hours of "could you repeat that question" from grampa Simpson. No. The average person is going to tune into their preferred news network and listen for a few minutes to some "analyst" that they already agree with.
  #214  
Old 07-25-2019, 10:53 AM
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The psychology is simple. The average person isn't going to read 100s of pages of government reports. The average person isn't going to listen to 7 hours of "could you repeat that question" from grampa Simpson. No. The average person is going to tune into their preferred news network and listen for a few minutes to some "analyst" that they already agree with.
I don't often agree with you but this is basically dead on.
  #215  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:01 AM
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Iím trying to distract from the testimony by referencing it directly. Interesting theory.

I really wish I had never heard the testimony. Now I know that I am susceptible to propaganda when I considered myself above it.
If it makes you feel any better, none of us thought you were.
  #216  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:11 AM
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Now I know that I am susceptible to propaganda when I considered myself above it.
Ever bought a name brand over a generic?
  #217  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:32 AM
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Let's go ahead and put this behind us. Impeachment is not going to happen. And if it does, we could kiss goodbye to those few dozen Democratic reps in districts that Donald won in 2016. So we can either continue a fight that we cannot win and in the process lose the House in 2020, or we can focus on what the people really care about: health care, climate change, jobs, and so on. Focus on the day when Donald's misdeeds could actually cost him. I would like for the new Democrat-run DOJ to indict him on 1/20/21 or at the earliest date thereafter. Work toward that, and not for a chance for Senate Republicans to hand hm an acquittal in an election year.
  #218  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:41 AM
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That's probably the best strategy, and for other reasons too:

1. President Pence would pursue similarly evil and destructive policies as President, but somewhat competently and without disgraceful personal conduct to discredit them;

2. The impeachment trial would happen in an election year, would be easily labelled as a campaign stunt, and the cries of "Let the people decide!" would be strong and not unreasonable;

3. Maybe most significantly, having Individual-1 renominated and still in office will perpetuate the Republican brand's toxicity, inevitably (?) affecting all the downticket races too. Less so if he's out.
  #219  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:49 AM
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Alternate plan. Use the word "impeach" just enough for the legal minimum. Investigate on that basis. Let nervous Dems be cautious and uncertain, and let them say so. Let them say stuff like "Well, we aren't there yet, we need to investigate". And then, investigate. Make the results public, then investigate the next thing. (Not like there is any lack of stuff to look at.) Keep doing that until we run out of stuff to investigate. (Ha! Just kidding, there is no bottom, wish there was, but no....) And, of course, let Sanders, AOC, etc. do their thing right along. We don't need unity, we need to make the case for unity.

If we cut the Forces of Darkness any slack, they will resist all the good stuff we want to accomplish even more, because they will think they are winning. Gotta make them nervous, looking over their shoulders. They aren't going to trade and compromise in good faith, they are way, way past that. Then we have to trust the people. Remember, more people voted against Trump than for him, so it isn't that bad a bet.

And Il Douche is a reliable ally when it comes to showing what a total asshole he is.
  #220  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:51 AM
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Article I, Section 2: "The House of Representatives...shall have the sole Power of Impeachment."
And then what?
  #221  
Old 07-25-2019, 11:59 AM
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Let's go ahead and put this behind us. Impeachment is not going to happen. And if it does, we could kiss goodbye to those few dozen Democratic reps in districts that Donald won in 2016. So we can either continue a fight that we cannot win and in the process lose the House in 2020, or we can focus on what the people really care about: health care, climate change, jobs, and so on. Focus on the day when Donald's misdeeds could actually cost him. I would like for the new Democrat-run DOJ to indict him on 1/20/21 or at the earliest date thereafter. Work toward that, and not for a chance for Senate Republicans to hand hm an acquittal in an election year.
So let him get reelected and then impeach? I like it! Well, I like the impeach part.
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  #222  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:00 PM
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Alternate plan. Use the word "impeach" just enough for the legal minimum. Investigate on that basis. Let nervous Dems be cautious and uncertain, and let them say so. Let them say stuff like "Well, we aren't there yet, we need to investigate". And then, investigate. Make the results public, then investigate the next thing. (Not like there is any lack of stuff to look at.) Keep doing that until we run out of stuff to investigate. (Ha! Just kidding, there is no bottom, wish there was, but no....) And, of course, let Sanders, AOC, etc. do their thing right along. We don't need unity, we need to make the case for unity.

If we cut the Forces of Darkness any slack, they will resist all the good stuff we want to accomplish even more, because they will think they are winning. Gotta make them nervous, looking over their shoulders. They aren't going to trade and compromise in good faith, they are way, way past that. Then we have to trust the people. Remember, more people voted against Trump than for him, so it isn't that bad a bet.

And Il Douche is a reliable ally when it comes to showing what a total asshole he is.
Perfect plan! Forward it to Pelosi.

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And then what?
Article 1, Section 3

Last edited by dropzone; 07-25-2019 at 12:03 PM.
  #223  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:01 PM
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The psychology is simple. The average person isn't going to read 100s of pages of government reports. The average person isn't going to listen to 7 hours of "could you repeat that question" from grampa Simpson. No. The average person is going to tune into their preferred news network and listen for a few minutes to some "analyst" that they already agree with.
I second what DigitalC said and agree with this, and it explains why the investigation was unlikely to result in a push for impeachment. The average nonpartisan voter, the kind that really move the proverbial needle, do not give a shit. They were probably pissed that the Mueller Show preempted Judge Judy.

Even Watergate by itself didn't bring down Nixon. It was the delayed pullout of Nam and the exposed lies about it; the energy crisis and the economic tailspin the country went into after that; and the cherry on top, the Watergate tapes themselves, full of vulgarities, racism, antisemitism, and blatant admissions of corruption captured on hours of tape. There was simply no way for Nixon to escape that kind of shit storm.

Trump, meanwhile, has an economy not seen in several decades. We haven't gotten bogged down in any wars. I obviously see things quite differently than you and other conservatives in my assessment that we are heading for major turbulence ahead, but until it actually happens...it's admittedly nothing more than just shaking a Magic 8 ball in the eyes of most people.

I share my believe with the progressives on this board that Trump is an unmitigated disaster in the making, but I don't for a moment expect the average person to come around until disaster actually strikes. And it's foolish to live in that kind of alternate political universe. We have to attack Trump where he can be exposed, as frustratingly slow as that process can be. Our problem is we want the flashy knockout; in reality, the way to beat Trump is get inside and work the body relentlessly. Corner him. Cut off the ring. Bruise him and weaken him blow by blow Julio Cesar Chavez style. That's what Nancy Pelosi's trying to do...if her foot soldiers will just have the patience and discipline to help let her do it.

Last edited by asahi; 07-25-2019 at 12:02 PM.
  #224  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:22 PM
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I don't understand what it is you want them to do.
Ummm, impeach?
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They can impeach, but cannot convict.
True. But you can only do the part you can do. If the House Democrats believe Trump has committed "high crimes and misdemeanors" then they should spell out those crimes, and the evidence supporting them, in plain language. Then vote to impeach him on the basis of those crimes.
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A pointless House vote would not accomplish anything, and would very likely just result in Republicans saying he'd been"exonerated."
So the worst result is...like where we are now, as you see it. Because they're already saying that.

I believe that's not the case. This currently isn't "he said, she said" where the Republicans are saying one thing, and the Democrats are saying something else. Trump and the GOP are saying "exoneration," and the Dems are just shrugging and not saying much of anything.

What's the public to make of that? I think it's pretty obvious. Most people aren't following it very closely, and if one side is saying Trump has been exonerated, and the other side isn't contradicting them, exoneration wins in a landslide. Apparently the whole Trump/Russia thing really wasn't a big deal after all.

So yeah, if I'm Trump, I'm celebrating my ass off.

Here's what impeachment is good for: people will start paying attention.

1) The impeachment inquiry will have hearings - not big attention-grabbers.

2) Then impeachment resolutions will be drafted, and the Judiciary Committee will debate those resolutions. If 1974 is any guide, most people will be paying attention by this point. The Judiciary Committee will vote on the resolutions, and that'll be a big deal.

3) Then the House as a whole will debate the resolutions that pass the Judiciary Committee. Yeah, people will be paying attention. They will hear the case laid out at once, that they've only gotten dribs and drabs of before. That won't convince the hardcore 40%, but there's nothing that can be done about that. Practically everyone else, OTOH - this is where we steal Pat Buchanan's 1971 playbook, divide the country into two halves, and get the way bigger half on our side.

4) Then the Senate does nothing, but that's out of our control. Inaction won't translate into exoneration, in the face of massive evidence of Trump's criminality.

4*) Alternatively, the Senate has a trial. If they do, two things:

a) The House impeachment managers will get to lay out the case for removal on the Senate floor: the stage keeps getting bigger, and the number of people tuning it out diminishes to the number of people who tune out politics altogether.

b) Vulnerable GOP Senators are forced to cast a vote. Have fun, Susan Collins, Cory Gardner, Martha McSally, Thom Tillis, Joni Ernst. You can piss off your base, or you can piss off the Dems. Your call.

Like I said, I don't think we get to (a) and (b), but per the above, I think it will be to our advantage in 2020 if we do.

And it's also taking a stand for what's right. Believe it or not, people like that sorta shit. Hell, people respect leaders who take a stand, period, unless it's a particularly evil or repugnant stand.
  #225  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:22 PM
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Perfect plan! Forward it to Pelosi...
Yeah, then I'll teach my grandmother how to knit.

“Can we make the case to the country and does the country benefit going through an impeachment if it’s going to be unsuccessful? And we know in the Senate, at least, it would be unsuccessful,” Schiff told CNN reporter John Berman.

“So I’m not there yet but I’m keeping an open mind and I may get there,” he continued.

Adam Schiff, about an hour ago

See how uncrazy and not radical we can be? Just keeping an open mind!

Last edited by elucidator; 07-25-2019 at 12:23 PM.
  #226  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:22 PM
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So let him get reelected and then impeach? I like it! Well, I like the impeach part.
Heck to the no! You campaign on issues that people care about, and when you beat him then prosecute. Otherwise, if the bastard wins he gets to skate based on statutes of limitation.
  #227  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:31 PM
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And it's also taking a stand for what's right.
[James Earl Jones voice]

"We are the United States of America. We don't do that sort of thing!"
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  #228  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:38 PM
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Here's what impeachment is good for: people will start paying attention.

1) The impeachment inquiry will have hearings - not big attention-grabbers.

2) Then impeachment resolutions will be drafted, and the Judiciary Committee will debate those resolutions. If 1974 is any guide, most people will be paying attention by this point. The Judiciary Committee will vote on the resolutions, and that'll be a big deal.

3) Then the House as a whole will debate the resolutions that pass the Judiciary Committee. Yeah, people will be paying attention. They will hear the case laid out at once, that they've only gotten dribs and drabs of before. That won't convince the hardcore 40%, but there's nothing that can be done about that. Practically everyone else, OTOH - this is where we steal Pat Buchanan's 1971 playbook, divide the country into two halves, and get the way bigger half on our side.

4) Then the Senate does nothing, but that's out of our control. Inaction won't translate into exoneration, in the face of massive evidence of Trump's criminality.

4*) Alternatively, the Senate has a trial. If they do, two things:

a) The House impeachment managers will get to lay out the case for removal on the Senate floor: the stage keeps getting bigger, and the number of people tuning it out diminishes to the number of people who tune out politics altogether.

b) Vulnerable GOP Senators are forced to cast a vote. Have fun, Susan Collins, Cory Gardner, Martha McSally, Thom Tillis, Joni Ernst. You can piss off your base, or you can piss off the Dems. Your call.

Like I said, I don't think we get to (a) and (b), but per the above, I think it will be to our advantage in 2020 if we do.

And it's also taking a stand for what's right. Believe it or not, people like that sorta shit. Hell, people respect leaders who take a stand, period, unless it's a particularly evil or repugnant stand.
You're making predictions that have little evidence to support them. If Trump were capable of being impeached, his approval numbers would be in the toilet. And more importantly, Senators would be scared to defend him. But neither of those things is true. The country has had plenty of time to pay attention, RTF. It simply isn't. Sorry.
  #229  
Old 07-25-2019, 12:51 PM
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Heck to the no! You campaign on issues that people care about, and when you beat him then prosecute. Otherwise, if the bastard wins he gets to skate based on statutes of limitation.
I think the Dems can campaign their hearts out and he will still get elected. By dirty tricks and the Russians, if nothing else. I hate that, but I think it's true.
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  #230  
Old 07-25-2019, 01:30 PM
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I think the Dems can campaign their hearts out and he will still get elected. By dirty tricks and the Russians, if nothing else. I hate that, but I think it's true.
I'm not so sure. I think the worst thing we can do is campaign on something that most people don't care about instead of the things people do care about? I think it's easier for Donald to act the martyr than it is to explain what he's going to do about health care.
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Old 07-25-2019, 01:38 PM
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You're making predictions that have little evidence to support them. If Trump were capable of being impeached, his approval numbers would be in the toilet. And more importantly, Senators would be scared to defend him. But neither of those things is true.
Speaking of assertions with no evidence to support them.

Hell, "If Trump were capable of being impeached, his approval numbers would be in the toilet" doesn't even have a clear meaning.
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The country has had plenty of time to pay attention, RTF. It simply isn't. Sorry.
Who said anything about time? I agree that the country isn't paying attention; the Dems haven't given it reason to. They could have made a big deal about the Mueller Report right when it came out, instead they shrugged. That signaled to non-political-junkies that there was no point in paying attention to it.

That ship's long since sailed; you can change people's minds while they're still in flux, but it's really hard to do so when they've already reached a conclusion. The Dems must either go after Trump big time over something different but damning, or impeach. Otherwise the country will assume they're not doing jack shit, which would be the case actually.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 07-25-2019 at 01:38 PM.
  #232  
Old 07-25-2019, 01:39 PM
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Bob, and the voters will have four years to forget why they hated the ACA. As time passes a system that has served most people pretty well will be better entrenched.

Last edited by dropzone; 07-25-2019 at 01:40 PM.
  #233  
Old 07-25-2019, 01:53 PM
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We have to attack Trump where he can be exposed, as frustratingly slow as that process can be. Our problem is we want the flashy knockout; in reality, the way to beat Trump is get inside and work the body relentlessly. Corner him. Cut off the ring. Bruise him and weaken him blow by blow Julio Cesar Chavez style. That's what Nancy Pelosi's trying to do...if her foot soldiers will just have the patience and discipline to help let her do it.
I don't get what you're saying.

1) If it ain't flashy, nobody will notice.

2) What, specifically, is Pelosi trying to do that will make a difference with voters next year?

3) Nice boxing analogy, but what's the analogy refer to? I don't see cornering, any cutting off the ring, any bruising and weakening Trump blow by blow.

Nice fantasy, though.

Last edited by RTFirefly; 07-25-2019 at 01:53 PM.
  #234  
Old 07-25-2019, 01:54 PM
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2) Then impeachment resolutions will be drafted, and the Judiciary Committee will debate those resolutions. If 1974 is any guide, most people will be paying attention by this point.
1974 isn't any guide, no, so the rest of your conclusions are all wrong.

People will sort of pay attention, but not the way they did in 1974. In 1974, some Republicans actually changed their minds. If you just look at the plain facts of what has been happening NOW, in the last three years, it is quite clear no Republicans will change their minds, or no more than one or two. Trump's criminal, bigoted behaviour is what they want, and they will stick by him no matter what. Impeachment hearings would make no difference at all - if anything they would boost Trump's support.

What would happen in the real world we actually inhabit is the hearings would result in nothing substantial; a vote would be taken and the Senate would would hold a vote in which Trump would, predictably, get every Republican to acquit; it would make no difference whatsoever what the evidence said. He would then declare victory. All Republican talking heads would say, with a complete straight face, that it was now proven he did nothing wrong. Trumpists would believe this and would turn out in stronger numbers than in 2016, convinced the Deep State had been once again defeated.

Trump in the last three years has proven beyond any doubt of question, with mounds of evidence, that he is a liar, a criminal, a racist, profoundly disloyal to his country, and the worst President of modern times. He's a rapist, too. And yet his support is as strong as ever. You cannot rely on democracy and the rule of law in a country where half the people do not want those things.
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  #235  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:03 PM
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That ship's long since sailed; you can change people's minds while they're still in flux, but it's really hard to do so when they've already reached a conclusion. The Dems must either go after Trump big time over something different but damning, or impeach. Otherwise the country will assume they're not doing jack shit, which would be the case actually.
The boarding call went out when Trump called Mexicans rapists. The ship sailed with a happy crew of 63M when the Access video came out. All well before Mueller showed up on the scene to underwhelming success.

I've seen reporting that suggests that there will be no impeachment, however the timing of ongoing house investigations will be such that the bad news will flood the zone in 2020. This is why the House appears to be dragging their feet in calling up witnesses such as McGhan and Lewandowski, as well as trying to fast track the disclosure of Trump's tax returns. There are also 14 ongoing investigations into various aspects of Trump's life and conduct, referred by the Mueller investigation to outside jurisdictions.

That seems to be the Democrat's game plan. Allegedly. I hope it fucking works.
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  #236  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:11 PM
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Trump's diet made him totally constipated. Pence snuck up behind him and whispered "Deutsche Bank". Cured!
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  #237  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:17 PM
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So in the end, Mueller is bound by the same kind of gag order that binds Trump's whores. Also, every witness that Congress calls to testify is similarly silenced. Surely that amounts to obstruction of justice? But it doesn't matter. The AG is held in criminal contempt of Congress, and that doesn't matter either, the DOJ says they won't do anything about it.

The law seems not to matter. It is as if the authority lies with some invisible 3rd party, some Super Mob that had secretly threatened to kill everyone's family if anyone talks. Some massive Epstein style blackmail con job that has literally everybody at the top by the balls. But that's crazy.

Humor me folks and tell me you think that's crazy, too.
  #238  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:22 PM
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1974 isn't any guide, no, so the rest of your conclusions are all wrong.

People will sort of pay attention, but not the way they did in 1974. In 1974, some Republicans actually changed their minds. If you just look at the plain facts of what has been happening NOW, in the last three years, it is quite clear no Republicans will change their minds, or no more than one or two. Trump's criminal, bigoted behaviour is what they want, and they will stick by him no matter what. Impeachment hearings would make no difference at all - if anything they would boost Trump's support.

What would happen in the real world we actually inhabit is the hearings would result in nothing substantial; a vote would be taken and the Senate would would hold a vote in which Trump would, predictably, get every Republican to acquit; it would make no difference whatsoever what the evidence said. He would then declare victory. All Republican talking heads would say, with a complete straight face, that it was now proven he did nothing wrong. Trumpists would believe this and would turn out in stronger numbers than in 2016, convinced the Deep State had been once again defeated.

Trump in the last three years has proven beyond any doubt of question, with mounds of evidence, that he is a liar, a criminal, a racist, profoundly disloyal to his country, and the worst President of modern times. He's a rapist, too. And yet his support is as strong as ever. You cannot rely on democracy and the rule of law in a country where half the people do not want those things.
The Republicans do not want so-called "criminal, bigoted behavior." That's ludicrous. What the Republicans want, as do the Democrats, is someone nominally of their party sitting in the White House in order to issue favorable executive orders and appoint members to the all important judiciary.

Since the courts have been turned into the ultimate prize nothing is held back to control them.
  #239  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:23 PM
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1974 isn't any guide, no, so the rest of your conclusions are all wrong.

People will sort of pay attention, but not the way they did in 1974. In 1974, some Republicans actually changed their minds. If you just look at the plain facts of what has been happening NOW, in the last three years, it is quite clear no Republicans will change their minds, or no more than one or two.
Who's expecting that? You must be rebutting someone else's post.
  #240  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:34 PM
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The Republicans do not want so-called "criminal, bigoted behavior." That's ludicrous. What the Republicans want, as do the Democrats, is someone nominally of their party sitting in the White House in order to issue favorable executive orders and appoint members to the all important judiciary.

Since the courts have been turned into the ultimate prize nothing is held back to control them.
"I'll take 'Lame Attempts at False Equivalence' for $200, Alex."
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  #241  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:39 PM
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I've seen reporting that suggests that there will be no impeachment, however the timing of ongoing house investigations will be such that the bad news will flood the zone in 2020. This is why the House appears to be dragging their feet in calling up witnesses such as McGhan and Lewandowski, as well as trying to fast track the disclosure of Trump's tax returns. There are also 14 ongoing investigations into various aspects of Trump's life and conduct, referred by the Mueller investigation to outside jurisdictions.

That seems to be the Democrat's game plan. Allegedly. I hope it fucking works.
Let's hope, because we seem to be stuck with it.

It's hard for me to believe there could be more bad news to flood the zone than we've already got. I mean, kids in cages taking care of babies in cages while other kids and babies in the cages die without even seeing a doctor. Impeachment? We need fucking Nuremberg trials for Trump and his minions.

Oh, and we almost got in a war with Iran, but apparently Trump saved us just in time from the war that Trump was about to start. It's fucking nuts that we go to war, or not, depending on the firing of random synapses in this geezer's brain.

And that's just for starters.
  #242  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:57 PM
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The Republicans do not want so-called "criminal, bigoted behavior." That's ludicrous.
But that's who they nominated and voted for.
  #243  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:58 PM
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There are also 14 ongoing investigations into various aspects of Trump's life and conduct, referred by the Mueller investigation to outside jurisdictions.
There were several times during his testimony when I wondered if he was declining to answer because of another ongoing investigation. I can't remember details, but I'm wondering what shoes remain to drop.
  #244  
Old 07-25-2019, 02:59 PM
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Trump's criminal, bigoted behaviour is what they want, and they will stick by him no matter what.
Or, even if it's *not* what they want, they've realized that it's what's wanted (or at least tolerated) by enough of their voters, and thus, they believe that speaking out against Trump will end their political careers.

Last edited by kenobi 65; 07-25-2019 at 02:59 PM.
  #245  
Old 07-25-2019, 03:14 PM
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"I'll take 'Lame Attempts at False Equivalence' for $200, Alex."
If you honestly believe the democrats aren't motivated by political power I'm not sure where you've lived the past 100 years or so.

Last edited by octopus; 07-25-2019 at 03:14 PM.
  #246  
Old 07-25-2019, 03:25 PM
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There were several times during his testimony when I wondered if he was declining to answer because of another ongoing investigation. I can't remember details, but I'm wondering what shoes remain to drop.
I thought the same as well. It would certainly explain the gymnastics and evasive reasoning behind failing to reach a conclusion in his report.
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  #247  
Old 07-25-2019, 03:30 PM
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They could have made a big deal about the Mueller Report right when it came out, instead they shrugged. That signaled to non-political-junkies that there was no point in paying attention to it.
What does "could have made a big deal about the Mueller report" even mean? You mean impeach right off the bat? I mean they could have, but there's no evidence that would have worked. I'm living in an evidence-based world, here: there is no evidence that shouting on the rooftops about Mueller and impeaching him the day after would have accomplished anything. You seem to have this hunch - that's really what it is and nothing more - that impeachment over the Mueller report would have been successful, but there's simply no evidence to support it. You're just pissed because people aren't as outraged about it as you are. I mean, I get it - I'm pissed off myself. But our shared anger doesn't change reality.
  #248  
Old 07-25-2019, 03:34 PM
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Oh, and we almost got in a war with Iran, but apparently Trump saved us just in time from the war that Trump was about to start. It's fucking nuts that we go to war, or not, depending on the firing of random synapses in this geezer's brain.
This is hardly over; we're nowhere near past that crisis. As long as he has John Bolton and Mike Pompeo in his back court, there's a very good chance he'll make a fatal miscalculation. I wish it didn't take a disaster to persuade the idiots in this country that they've made a terrible mistake at the polls, but I'm afraid that's the America we live in.
  #249  
Old 07-25-2019, 04:07 PM
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I thought the same as well. It would certainly explain the gymnastics and evasive reasoning behind failing to reach a conclusion in his report.
You mean outside of being expressly and explicitly forbidden to do so?
  #250  
Old 07-25-2019, 05:18 PM
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You mean outside of being expressly and explicitly forbidden to do so?
There you go! Bringing up facts. <tsk-tsk>
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