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  #101  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post
From Wikipedia.




Seems in line with a lot of other candidates. Why should she not be considered along with them? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd truly be interested in yours or others' thoughts. I myself don't know much about her.
Because she's got zero government experience and generally, self help gurus are full of crap.
  #102  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:14 PM
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From Wikipedia.




Seems in line with a lot of other candidates. Why should she not be considered along with them? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd truly be interested in yours or others' thoughts. I myself don't know much about her.
Because I believe in all those things too, but I, like Williamson, have absolutely no business running the country. She's a self-help author. I'm gobsmacked that there are people willing to even entertain the notion she should still be in that debate stage.
  #103  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiddle Peghead View Post


Seems in line with a lot of other candidates. Why should she not be considered along with them? This is not a rhetorical question. I'd truly be interested in yours or others' thoughts. I myself don't know much about her.
Her views are in line, so why not pick someone with experience in government?

We don't get better policies with Williamson, and we get dramatically less experience.
  #104  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:17 PM
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Also known as speaking passionately, (as long as you have a Y chromosome).
Bah! I don't buy into that theory. Warren came across to me as shrill and condescending. Men can be that way as well.
  #105  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:19 PM
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Why is Warren lower on your list because of this issue? Universal background checks are an absolutely standard, near-universal talking point in Democratic politics. I don't know that any of the 20 candidates don't support them; even Steve Bullock flip-flopped when he started looking at running for president.
Mostly because she used part of her extra inning on CNN to mention it. I have not heard every candidate propose it; if it's everyone, then that is a certain amount of voters written off.

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...Bullock, Delaney, and Ryan can hang it up now--they are what Republicans/conservatives should be....
Ha! Cannot disagree.

Last edited by sps49sd; 07-31-2019 at 12:21 PM.
  #106  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:20 PM
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The fundies don't object to pretty.
So you shrugged and "just saying" to agree with me? Ok, was a little confused. Fyi, McCain actually did worse with fundies compared Republicans in the previous and next elections but that was across the religious spectrum.
  #107  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:24 PM
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I'm going to miss the edit window, but it was discussed in another thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yC7-JsR2Fk

This two minute video shows a reenactment of a debate between Trump and Clinton with a woman playing the role of Trump and a man playing the role of Clinton. It is astounding to watch the body language and the exchanges. The man seems like a slimy politician and the woman seems like an average voter and someone you would trust.

If the election were held based on that two minute video, the woman would win in a landslide. She comes across as passionate and confident, not bitchy or shrill. This whole idea that women cannot be assertive is, IMHO, an excuse for some women not learning the art of advocacy v. lecturing and just chalking it up to sexism. It really is an art form.
  #108  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:33 PM
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Lol
  #109  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:48 PM
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MMV, clearly. I don’t think that woman comes off well, and the man is fine.

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But nobody since Bill Clinton has done it without it being cringeworthy. Even when Gore tried it, SNL lampooned him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDgRRVpemLo

It starts at the 7:00 mark if you want to skip to the "I know this poor old lady" part.

Funny stuff (Darrell Hammond is the best), but I’m sure they test these things in focus groups and find they work. Sophisticated political observers are not the targets for this stuff.


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Also known as speaking passionately, (as long as you have a Y chromosome).

Oh, please.

(1) I have been touting Kamala Harris all over these threads.

(2) I have given Bernie shit many times for bellowing at interviewers.

(3) Any man who glares at the audience when they start laughing, admonishing “that’s not funny!” would also not be seen in a positive light.
  #110  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:03 PM
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Don’t be so sure. Nate Silver made an interesting point on the immediate post-debate 538 podcast. Right now taking away private insurance is about 12 points underwater, with roughly 43% of the public supporting it and 55% opposing. But if people see that quite a few Democrats are willing to criticize that move, it might go to something more like 25 points underwater, a real danger zone.

So that actually does somewhat justify Warren’s complaint that these are GOP talking points. In theory, if the party were unified behind single payer, it might help keep the issue close to being at least not super damaging politically. But of course the more moderate candidates are not under any obligation to help prop up Bernie and Warren at this point, especially since neither of them is a frontrunner.

And it cuts both ways: if everyone were supporting the same agenda, it would not provide those two as much of a lane to differentiate themselves and elevate their own campaigns.
Yeah, I dont see why "Medicare for all" has to also equal= "taking away private insurance". That is a loser in my mind. Other nations with UHC also allow private insurance.
  #111  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:05 PM
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....


Buttigieg really handles himself well in debates. I'm just not sure if it really matters, unfortunately. Maybe he'll gain traction as other candidates drop out.

I like Mayor Pete, but face it, Buttigieg won't play in Peoria. Nominating a gay man in 2020 is a sure way to let trump back in. Now, I think this will change, and fairly soon, but not by 2020.
  #112  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:07 PM
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Why is Warren lower on your list because of this issue? Universal background checks are an absolutely standard, near-universal talking point in Democratic politics. I don't know that any of the 20 candidates don't support them; even Steve Bullock flip-flopped when he started looking at running for president.
Yes, but when the rubber meets the road, there could be exceptions for family transfers. I hope so.
  #113  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:08 PM
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I like Mayor Pete, but face it, Buttigieg won't play in Peoria. Nominating a gay man in 2020 is a sure way to let trump back in. Now, I think this will change, and fairly soon, but not by 2020.
I think he'd be a good in the VP slot (Pence debates would be a hoot). But I'd be okay with him at the top of the ticket too.
  #114  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:13 PM
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Lots of people thought it would be another generation before "we'd be ready" for gay marriage. And that we'd never have a black President. But once it was real, it was normal.

Buttigieg can't hope to get much of the fundie vote, sure, but no Democrat can.

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Yeah, I dont see why "Medicare for all" has to also equal= "taking away private insurance".
It's more that there wouldn't be a place for it anymore in primary care, just Medicare supplement policies which are already a staple product. Warren and Sanders would be doing themselves a solid by explaining that part. Medicare is a familiar and loved brand, and hard for the GOP to fun against (their "socialized medicine" scare of the Sixties doesn't have strong echoes today).

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  #115  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:13 PM
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Also, for the Democrats to seem like the party of energy and determination, they may not be able to afford to nominate a septuagenarian. You can't beat a dotard with another dotard.
ISTM that it depends on the septuagenarian. Warren's got energy and determination in abundance, despite having recently turned 70.
  #116  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:24 PM
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I like Mayor Pete, but face it, Buttigieg won't play in Peoria. Nominating a gay man in 2020 is a sure way to let trump back in. Now, I think this will change, and fairly soon, but not by 2020.
I think Pete's problem in a general election isn't just that he's gay; it's that he's gay and he's had noteworthy difficulties in terms of how he's perceived by people of color back in his hometown. I'm guessing Buttigieg is very popular among white audiences but a lot of African Americans and Hispanics are socially conservative and I don't get the impression that Black Americans in particular are sold on the idea that he's moved forward on matters of race in South Bend.

The one candidate from last night's debate with a clear path to the nomination is Elizabeth Warren. We'll see tonight if that's still true for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.

Last edited by asahi; 07-31-2019 at 01:25 PM.
  #117  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:33 PM
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Does Pete have shoe polish smudged on his forehead?
Apparently it was a smooshed gnat.
  #118  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:36 PM
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Buttigieg can't hope to get much of the fundie vote, sure, but no Democrat can.

It's more that there wouldn't be a place for it anymore in primary care, just Medicare supplement policies which are already a staple product. Warren and Sanders would be doing themselves a solid by explaining that part. ....
I am not worried about the fundy vote, I am worried about the rust belt.

Which are.... private insurance.

But still, some rich people would like better more personalized care, and as long as they are willing to pay for it, why not?
  #119  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:39 PM
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Yeah, everybody just loves the private insurance companies, don't they?

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Other nations with UHC also allow private insurance.
It's supplemental only, just like with Medicare. Where UHC exists as a basic, tax-paid right for basic but adequate coverage, there is simply no room for private insurance except to cover some extras.
  #120  
Old 07-31-2019, 01:59 PM
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I'm astonished by the people who thought Bullock seemed strong. I think just the opposite. I was horrified to see his stumbling and bumbling and even his facial expressions were unsettling. And his response to the question about nuclear weapons was godawful. He should have just said "this is not the appropriate time to be discussing that type of military strategy. It's not in the best interest of national security. Full stop." He should have said that and nothing more. If anyone pushed him to talk any further he should have said "I've made my position clear already." That's it. Talking himself into circles did him no favors at all. His closing statement was also horrible.
  #121  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:13 PM
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Ok. Ok. Ok. I was extending a dainty toe in the direction of Steve Bullock, but I must withdraw it. I can't take 4 more years of "new-cu-lar."
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EEK! Shades of George W. Bush!
I am proud and happy that I know you both.

ETA: and Happy, too!
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And yes, I am angry about "new-cu-lar." I may have to re-think the warm leather glove.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 07-31-2019 at 02:16 PM.
  #122  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:16 PM
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Also known as speaking passionately, (as long as you have a Y chromosome).
No, she made an attempt to make a connection with the audience, and then admonished them when it didn't work as planned. It would've been equally ridiculous had any of the men on stage done it too.
  #123  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:17 PM
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Regarding Bullock's "Nucular": Yeah that drove me crazy too. It's also a sign that he's either too dumb to hire good consultants or too dumb to listen to them if he did. A word mispronunciation that is so blatantly associated with the mannerisms and administration of such a shitty president in such recent history, should have been immediately flagged during his debate preparations as something to avoid.

"But that's just the way I pronounce it, I can't help it!" "You better learn to say it correctly or people are going to think of George W. Fucking Bush, goddammit. Now practice!"

That exchange clearly never took place.

Last edited by Lamoral; 07-31-2019 at 02:18 PM.
  #124  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:21 PM
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I see why Bullock won...in Montana.
  #125  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:25 PM
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I think Pete's problem in a general election isn't just that he's gay; it's that he's gay and he's had noteworthy difficulties in terms of how he's perceived by people of color back in his hometown.

.....

The one candidate from last night's debate with a clear path to the nomination is Elizabeth Warren. We'll see tonight if that's still true for Joe Biden and Kamala Harris.
I've never really bought into the idea that the individual state or city that a candidate was governor or mayor of really mattered very much when that candidate is running for president. No city is perfect. No state is perfect. Unless the individual in question presided over an unambiguous CATASTROPHE in city or state governance, I do not think the majority of Americans are even going to be thinking of any internal matters within the city or state of that candidate when it's time to vote in the general election. The candidate's job is to sell the country on big-picture ideas with inspiring charisma that gets people excited.

I think Pete has that charisma without question, and while I don't think his chances of taking the nomination are that high, I do think his chances of beating Trump if he somehow did, would be quite favorable, based on his charisma and his ability to discuss big-picture issues without it sounding like empty platitudes.

I agree that Warren has a clear path to 4 more years of Trump.
  #126  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:40 PM
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I'm trying to think of a non-insulting way of describing these comments but coming up dry. They're idiotic. A self help guru is not a good VP candidate. She can talk nice but no way should she be a heartbeat away from the presidency. But you're only objection is she might be too pretty for the fundies? What the fuck? You think if the woman VP candidate is plain enough the fundies are going to vote Dem?
I'm sorry, I forgot my winkie, . And my recommendation to never take anything I say without a tongue numbing amount of salt.
  #127  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:44 PM
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Not only did you forget your winkie, you wrote "I'm not joking".
  #128  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:01 PM
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Oh. Now I'm extra embarrassed. <-(real) I guess I was serious and being a sexist idiot, which is pointed out to me regularly. I'll continue to work on it. Thank you for rubbing my nose in it; it's the only way I'll learn. Truly seriously.
  #129  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:12 PM
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No, she made an attempt to make a connection with the audience, and then admonished them when it didn't work as planned. It would've been equally ridiculous had any of the men on stage done it too.

This. It was SO bad, and it drives me nuts that no one in the media seems to mention it but inexplicably keep piling on Beto.
  #130  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:25 PM
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Bernie belongs in the Muppet Show balcony, not running for president. Republicans would eat him alive and spit out the bones.
This is quite delusional. In what way are they going to 'Eat him alive?' Republicans consider him and Warren their greatest threat.
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  #131  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:25 PM
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Nothing. Intros, handshakes, flags, etc
You missed the most important bit of the whole debate -- Tim Ryan neglecting to put his hand over his heart for the National Anthem.
  #132  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:31 PM
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This is quite delusional. In what way are they going to 'Eat him alive?' Republicans consider him and Warren their greatest threat.
Nope. If the GOP got to choose their opponent, they'd pick Sanders/Warren or maybe Warren/Sanders. The extreme left just doesn't get how completely out of touch with mainstream America those two are.
  #133  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:34 PM
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Nope. If the GOP got to choose their opponent, they'd pick Sanders/Warren or maybe Warren/Sanders. The extreme left just doesn't get how completely out of touch with mainstream America those two are.
They're not out of touch, I've heard this crap before with Trump, and then he won.

'Extreme left' is now wanting healthcare free at the point at use. Warren and Sanders are about as extreme as FDR, that other traitorous 'commie-pinko'
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  #134  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:39 PM
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Somebody edited John Delaney's Wikipedia page to indicate that he had been murdered by Elizabeth Warren.
  #135  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:42 PM
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You missed the most important bit of the whole debate -- Tim Ryan neglecting to put his hand over his heart for the National Anthem.

Really? I was joking to my wife that one of them might pull a Colin Kaepernick, but I didn’t think anyone really did anything like that.


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This is quite delusional. In what way are they going to 'Eat him alive?' Republicans consider him and Warren their greatest threat.

I think you might be...serious??
  #136  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:59 PM
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You missed the most important bit of the whole debate -- Tim Ryan neglecting to put his hand over his heart for the National Anthem.
I understand that the National Anthem is traditional at professional sports games. No reason for it, really (we've had threads on this) but it's at least traditional.

I've never seen it at a debate before, and I don't like it. It's as if they're trying to compete with Trump's flag humping. The candidates did a pretty good job having an adult discussion of issues, but CNN (or the DNC) seemed to want to make a mockery of the whole thing. God help us if this becomes the norm.
  #137  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:02 PM
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I think you might be...serious??
I think you think it's a joke????
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  #138  
Old 07-31-2019, 04:06 PM
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Buttigieg mentioning over and over again how young he is.

It is quite stunning, though, to think that the oldest Democratic candidate in a race is more than twice as old as the youngest. That's definitely got to be a historical first.
  #139  
Old 07-31-2019, 05:35 PM
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I think he'd [Buttigieg] be a good in the VP slot (Pence debates would be a hoot). But I'd be okay with him at the top of the ticket too.
The question is, would Pence consent to be in a room alone with Buttigieg?
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:12 PM
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Am I the only one that liked Hickenlooper? A big part of his message is that he actually enacted progressive policies. And that he did it in a purple state.

I wish the governors in general were getting more traction. I consider it a slightly better resume point than senator for president. Granted, none of the governors currently running are charismatic.
  #141  
Old 07-31-2019, 06:47 PM
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Oh. Now I'm extra embarrassed. <-(real) I guess I was serious and being a sexist idiot, which is pointed out to me regularly. I'll continue to work on it. Thank you for rubbing my nose in it; it's the only way I'll learn. Truly seriously.
I didn't say anything about sexist.
  #142  
Old 07-31-2019, 06:48 PM
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The question is, would Pence consent to be in a room alone with Buttigieg?
Buttigieg has his good points, but I don't think he's really Pence's type:

Quote:
Mike Pence is into shoulders. He talks about shoulders constantly, saying things like, “To be around Donald Trump is to be around a man with broad shoulders,” and “He’s a man with broad shoulders, he’s got a clear vision, he’s strong,” and Ronald Reagan’s “broad-shouldered leadership inspired my life.” It seems Pence has found another pair of broad shoulders to inspire him. The New York Times, in a report on Pence’s influence on the party’s campaign strategy, shows him putting his beliefs into practice: “Mr. Pence stood behind [Trump 2020 campaign manager Brad] Parscale, rubbing his shoulders, as Mr. Trump spoke.”
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/...sh-update.html

So it's probably safe for Mayor Pete to be alone with ol' Mikey.
  #143  
Old 07-31-2019, 06:55 PM
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I wish the governors in general were getting more traction. I consider it a slightly better resume point than senator for president. Granted, none of the governors currently running are charismatic.
Presidential politics is attracting more and more bizarro candidates and the 'debates' are nothing more than a reality TV drama show. There's nothing substantive that comes out of this circus. What comes out of it are the candidates who put on a show, which Williamson surely did last night.
  #144  
Old 07-31-2019, 06:57 PM
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Am I the only one that liked Hickenlooper? A big part of his message is that he actually enacted progressive policies. And that he did it in a purple state.

I wish the governors in general were getting more traction. I consider it a slightly better resume point than senator for president. Granted, none of the governors currently running are charismatic.
I’ve liked him in the past when I’ve heard him interviewed. Last night he seemed a little low on charisma. I personally don’t care, but I don’t see him catching fire.
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:59 PM
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Yeah, everybody just loves the private insurance companies, don't they?

It's supplemental only, just like with Medicare. Where UHC exists as a basic, tax-paid right for basic but adequate coverage, there is simply no room for private insurance except to cover some extras.
That's not true at all. About 10% of British buy private insurance. No waiting, ect.


https://thehealthcareblog.com/blog/2...nce-in-the-uk/

"The insurance part isn’t too difficult to understand. People living in Britain can obtain private insurance, and about 10 percent of them do. About one-third of people with private insurance purchase it with their own money, while the rest receive it as a benefit of employment. Many of the big multinationals provide such insurance, either to all their employees or to senior executives. It’s considered a plum perk for everyone, and most expats coming to work in the UK consider it an essential benefit.


Private insurance covers care provided outside the tax-funded NHS system. Sometimes, people use it to obtain items that the NHS has chosen not to cover, like medications or devices with low cost-effectiveness ratios (as I described in my previous blog on NICE). But that’s unusual. Far more commonly, the insurance is used to purchase services that are freely available in the NHS, such as subspecialty consultation and elective surgery.

The delivery side is more interesting – and fraught – than the insurance side. Private insurance generally doesn’t cover primary care; most patients seem relatively satisfied with their publicly funded general practitioners (whom I described here) and most GPs make enough money that they don’t seek more work. The action in the private world stems from occasionally poor access to specialty care in the NHS, both because of limited numbers of specialists and gatekeeping by GPs. The result of these limitations is the famously long NHS queues – in the 1970s and 80s, patients often had to wait up to a year for an elective hip replacement..."


So, while I think UHC is a great idea, the idea of banning private insurance and doctors is a bad one. If you wanna pay extra for fast service, fine by me.

Last edited by DrDeth; 07-31-2019 at 07:00 PM.
  #146  
Old 07-31-2019, 06:59 PM
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Presidential politics is attracting more and more bizarro candidates and the 'debates' are nothing more than a reality TV drama show. There's nothing substantive that comes out of this circus. What comes out of it are the candidates who put on a show, which Williamson surely did last night.
This is what really bugs me. The fact that someone's political career can be made or broken on one great sound bite or one faux pas. It's nuts and it's so emblematic of today.
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  #147  
Old 07-31-2019, 07:01 PM
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Regarding Bullock's "Nucular": Yeah that drove me crazy too. It's also a sign that he's either too dumb to hire good consultants or too dumb to listen to them if he did. A word mispronunciation that is so blatantly associated with the mannerisms and administration of such a shitty president in such recent history, should have been immediately flagged during his debate preparations as something to avoid.
....
It is a legit alt pronunciation, and people need to get over it.
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:03 PM
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Nope. If the GOP got to choose their opponent, they'd pick Sanders/Warren or maybe Warren/Sanders. The extreme left just doesn't get how completely out of touch with mainstream America those two are.
Or mayor Pete.

Never Biden or Harris or Beto. Those guys are dangerous.
  #149  
Old 07-31-2019, 07:04 PM
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It is a legit alt pronunciation, and people need to get over it.
No. It's not. And no. We don't.
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  #150  
Old 07-31-2019, 07:24 PM
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What were they chanting when Senator Booker was speaking just now?
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