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Old 08-02-2019, 09:20 PM
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The seven tenets of The Satanic Temple, compared to other religious guidance


Here are the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple:

https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/tenets

*One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

*The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

*One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

*The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.

*Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.

*People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

*Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

I posit that these tenets are far superior to the moral guidance provided in the Ten Commandments or the New Testament of the Bible. I'm not nearly as familiar with the Quran, but in my limited understanding they're also superior to the guidance of that text.

Morality being a human construct, this is, of course, just my opinion. But if you disagree, why do you believe your preferred set of religious guidance is superior to these seven tenets? What proper moral behavior do you believe is not covered by these seven?

I am not a member of The Satanic Temple -- just a guy who recently watched the documentary "Hail Satan?" and thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion.

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Old 08-02-2019, 09:25 PM
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TST totally fucking rocks! A vast improvement over what Anton LaVey started, IMO.
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:16 AM
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I met Lucien Greaves and Michelle Shortt when they visited the Humanist Society of Greater Phoenix. They were both lovely people. I really appreciate their agitation for justice since I have had to "retire".
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Old 08-03-2019, 05:23 AM
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What do you mean when you say morality is a human construct? Could you expand on that?
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Old 08-03-2019, 07:34 AM
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What do you mean when you say morality is a human construct? Could you expand on that?
Ugh. Now you've done it. We'll be neck deep in axiomatic pedantry in 5...4...3...

Re:OP,
I did not know this about TST. I'm not a joiner, but if I were, I'd make inquiries.
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Old 08-03-2019, 07:44 AM
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Morality being a human construct, this is, of course, just my opinion. But if you disagree, why do you believe your preferred set of religious guidance is superior to these seven tenets? What proper moral behavior do you believe is not covered by these seven?

I am not a member of The Satanic Temple -- just a guy who recently watched the documentary "Hail Satan?" and thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion.
I believe there are universal principals, in Buddhism it's called Dharma; morality comes from those universal principals. All religions come from trying to codify them, and will also depend on the local beliefs and culture. So at the core all religions are based on trying to understand Dharma imperfectly, with a lot of extra stuff thrown in. This is why scientology and jedi religion and likewise, which was made to to be a false religion or fantasy religion actually merges with Dharma.

The Dharma rule that allows this is 'seek and you shall find' which is a biblical principal but I believe it is a universal principal. If one seeks the truth, God or whatever to such a extent where they are willing to give up everything, they will find it. While the founders of such religions may not have that intention, some of the followers will eventually and that will lead it towards the dharma.

As for Satanic temple, from what I know of it, which is not much, but they have a shocking name but really have knowledge, not Satan, as their gateway. Similar to early gnosticism their use of Satan is not the worshiping the evil one, but rejoicing the wisdom we have obtained with the knowledge gained of good and evil, which those above stated codes seem to indicate.
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Old 08-03-2019, 08:10 AM
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I don't know, if it doesn't involve stoning people or prohibitions against mixing fibers, can it really be called guidance? Where's the divine jealousy, worrying about worshiping other gods? Seems like it's missing something.

My only disagreement is about morals being a human construct -- I think some big portion of morality is likely in-build moral sense evolved over time. Other that that, I think those are pretty good guidelines.
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Old 08-03-2019, 08:37 AM
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What do you mean when you say morality is a human construct? Could you expand on that?
That probably deserves its own thread. But I'll try to sum up -- I know some folks think morality is determined by a supernatural power, but IMO this just makes it arbitrary -- relying on the guidance from some other being, rather than deciding for ourselves. Without evidence of such a power originating morality, I conclude that the best explanation is that morality, like pretty much all non-corporeal and non-physical concepts, is human created. We decide what morality is and what it means.

But hopefully this thread won't turn into a debate about this -- I'm interested in opinions on the tenets in the OP. What do you think? Do you think any religious text provides superior guidance?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-03-2019 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 08-03-2019, 08:51 AM
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But hopefully this thread won't turn into a debate about this -- I'm interested in opinions on the tenets in the OP. What do you think? Do you think any religious text provides superior guidance?
First off, sorry for nearly hijacking the thread. I didn't mean to

Second, I can't say for sure that no religious text provides superior guidance because there are so many to choose from. I feel confident enough in my knowledge of Christianity and Islam to say that neither religion provides superior guidance (and that both say a lot of things that are very immoral), but that's about it. I don't know enough about, say, Jainism, to say whether or not it provides better guidance than the ST.
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Old 08-03-2019, 08:59 AM
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But hopefully this thread won't turn into a debate about this -- I'm interested in opinions on the tenets in the OP. What do you think? Do you think any religious text provides superior guidance?
What little I know about Zoroastrianism, I learned from a former colleague. These are their tenets:

Quote:
Our role in living is to do good deeds and fight for what is righteous. In order to do that, we must follow three basic commandments.

- good actions (spreading love and kindness, healing the sick, sharing Zoroastrianism to others)
- good speech (speaking what is true, not lying)
- good thoughts (not judging people, desiring to do good, not plotting bad events against others)
Plenty of typical religious weirdness of Good vs. Evil and afternlife, etc. But the principles are sound and hard to argue with. The best of it seems similar in tone to TST and other religions (+/-), until you get into the weeds.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:29 AM
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Sounds good to me! But please explain, how does Satan fit into it?

Reminds me of the7 UU principles:
Principle 1: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Principle 2: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Principle 3: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
Principle 4: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
Principle 5: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
Principle 6: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Principle 7: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Also good stuff in the Humanist manifestos. Lots of good lessons to live by, when you eliminate the fairy tales.
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Old 08-03-2019, 11:41 AM
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It all sound good, but does it fill the pews and the coffers like a bit of magical thinking?
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Old 08-03-2019, 12:11 PM
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Sounds better than any religious set I've seen, especially since there is no appeal to the supernatural, and tenet 5 is quite the opposite of appeals to the supernatural.

No wonder the godly hate them.
Now, I'm not sure what they think about Satan as a character. Does the supernatural slip in there, or is Satan a placeholder for rebellion against the god concept?
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Old 08-03-2019, 12:15 PM
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I think it's a placeholder for the rebellion against magical-thinking-in-religion.
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Old 08-03-2019, 12:16 PM
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Sounds good to me! But please explain, how does Satan fit into it?
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Now, I'm not sure what they think about Satan as a character. Does the supernatural slip in there, or is Satan a placeholder for rebellion against the god concept?
No supernatural stuff; otherwise pretty much what you think, Voyager. From their FAQ page:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Satanic Temple
WHAT DOES SATAN MEAN TO TST?

Satan is a symbol of the Eternal Rebel in opposition to arbitrary authority, forever defending personal sovereignty even in the face of insurmountable odds. Satan is an icon for the unbowed will of the unsilenced inquirer – the heretic who questions sacred laws and rejects all tyrannical impositions. Our metaphoric representation is the literary Satan best exemplified by Milton and the Romantic Satanists from Blake to Shelley to Anatole France.
Also:
Quote:
HOW ARE YOU DIFFERENT FROM HUMANISTS?

A unifying attribute of all Satanists is our embrace of our outsider status. In addition, Satanists adhere to the principles of individual sovereignty and the rejection of tyrannical authority. These concerns are of paramount importance to us, but are not fundamental components of Humanism.

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Old 08-03-2019, 12:39 PM
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Sounds good to me! But please explain, how does Satan fit into it?
I think it's largely pre-Wikipedia since I looked up Satanism but, as I understand it, they use him as an icon of rebellion and the bringer of knowledge to humanity. Satanism is or was basically just goth libertarianism.

That said, and I have no idea how much the new church continues any of this, the old LaVey version was really just a way to use cool Satanic imagery and the promise of rebellion to pick up and take advantage of goth chicks it seemed pretty clear from their old website.

I should try to see if it still exists on the wayback machine but, to me reading it, the writing all strongly implied a two-level system where the top level lived to accomplish the goal of being strong, independent, brilliant, etc. and not bowing down to no silly "rules" but...at the same time there was the second tier of people that you sell Satanic Bibles, candles, and other tchotchke to, teach how to perform rituals, and take advantage of because they're too gullible to realize that that's all nonsense.

If you take the immoral, predatory aspect out, it's a fairly good philosophy. But it's also just 50% humanism and 50% libertarianism. Before or after the split, the Satan angle is really just marketing. Before, it was marketing for groupies. Now it's marketing for goth libertarians.

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Old 08-03-2019, 02:35 PM
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I think it's largely pre-Wikipedia since I looked up Satanism but, as I understand it, they use him as an icon of rebellion and the bringer of knowledge to humanity. Satanism is or was basically just goth libertarianism....
So, basically, they chose a name intended to offend as many folk as possible. Okay. Not sure if that works out as an overall plus or minus in terms of marketing and outreach. Maybe they shoulda just called themselves, "Fuck you!"
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Old 08-03-2019, 03:00 PM
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So, basically, they chose a name intended to offend as many folk as possible.
It's a little bit baked into their ethos. From the couple of guys I knew in college they're a little less goth libertarians than they are goth anarchists that want to stick it to the squares. It's just a little bit like naming your band Butthole Surfers . They( or at least some of them )revel in pissing off the stodgy voices of authority.
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Old 08-03-2019, 03:04 PM
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I've read a couple of interviews with Lucien Greaves, and I really like what he has to say. Personally, I find TST's 7 tenets to be both ethically and rationally sound, and could find far worse codes to live by.

As I understand it, part of TST's mission is to defend church-state separation. And they use Satanic imagery to do that; when legislators in Arkansas wanted to put a memorial to the Ten Commandments on the grounds of the state capitol, the TST applied to erect a statue of Baphomet nearby, arguing that the Arkansas state legislature could not erect a Judeo-Christian monument but forbid a Satanic one. They got a site permit too, but the Arkansas legislature withdrew permission for the Ten Commandments monument, instead.

The TST also held a "Pink Mass" over the grave of Fred Phelps, to posthumously turn him gay.

All that said, Greaves has said that he and most of the organizers are, in fact, Satanists; but from the Enlightenment, Luciferian strand of Satanism, that sees Satan as a symbol of reason and rebellion against arbitrary authority. They don't actually believe in a supernatural being.

I think they do very important work, and generally hold them in some regard.
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:14 PM
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Note: I do want to point out that The Satanic Temple is separate from and different than the Church of Satan. But, by similar standards, one might note that the Church of Mormon is no longer what it was even 30 years ago, and every form of Christianity would probably be completely unrecognizable to Jesus. But, a look at the history can inform some of the view of how things ended up where they are today.

So I'm posting this from the sense of filling in some of the history, not because I'm confused about the subject.

---

As a brief highlight, here are the Nine Satanic Statements by LaVey:

https://www.churchofsatan.com/nine-satanic-statements/

And the Nine Satanic Sins:

https://www.churchofsatan.com/nine-satanic-sins/

I would say that The Satanic Temple probably derives more from the sins than it does from the statements.

A larger sample of his writing:

https://www.churchofsatan.com/letters-from-the-devil/

On comparison with other cult leaders, I suppose not too horrible. But, I think you can see why it's been toned down a fair ways.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-03-2019 at 04:16 PM.
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Old 08-03-2019, 04:43 PM
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It all sound good, but does it fill the pews and the coffers like a bit of magical thinking?
Sadly, no. We UU's always lag behind the evangelical types and Catholicism when it comes to fund raising and bringing in the BIG crowds.
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Old 08-03-2019, 05:22 PM
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It sounds good, but I'd never join any religion which would have me as a member.
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Old 08-03-2019, 07:00 PM
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Here are the seven tenets of the Satanic Temple:

https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/tenets

*One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

*The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

*One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

*The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.

*Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.

*People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

*Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

I posit that these tenets are far superior to the moral guidance provided in the Ten Commandments or the New Testament of the Bible. I'm not nearly as familiar with the Quran, but in my limited understanding they're also superior to the guidance of that text.

Morality being a human construct, this is, of course, just my opinion. But if you disagree, why do you believe your preferred set of religious guidance is superior to these seven tenets? What proper moral behavior do you believe is not covered by these seven?

I am not a member of The Satanic Temple -- just a guy who recently watched the documentary "Hail Satan?" and thought this would be an interesting topic of discussion.
They sound superficially good.
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Old 08-03-2019, 07:09 PM
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It sounds good, but I'd never join any religion which would have me as a member.
You're missing out; Subgenius devivals are a lot of fun.

signed,

Pope Ignatius Polyester


(also a Pope in the People's Catholic Church, natch)

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Old 08-04-2019, 02:37 AM
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Such lists from actual religions tend to be guidance on how to treat others or on moral obligations. This reads more like a list of rights from some wishy washy UN document, or perhaps a list of reasons for you to have a grievance with someone.
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Old 08-04-2019, 02:52 AM
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I believe there are universal principals, in Buddhism it's called Dharma; morality comes from those universal principals. All religions come from trying to codify them, and will also depend on the local beliefs and culture. So at the core all religions are based on trying to understand Dharma imperfectly, with a lot of extra stuff thrown in. This is why scientology and jedi religion and likewise, which was made to to be a false religion or fantasy religion actually merges with Dharma.

The Dharma rule that allows this is 'seek and you shall find' which is a biblical principal but I believe it is a universal principal. If one seeks the truth, God or whatever to such a extent where they are willing to give up everything, they will find it. While the founders of such religions may not have that intention, some of the followers will eventually and that will lead it towards the dharma.

As for Satanic temple, from what I know of it, which is not much, but they have a shocking name but really have knowledge, not Satan, as their gateway. Similar to early gnosticism their use of Satan is not the worshiping the evil one, but rejoicing the wisdom we have obtained with the knowledge gained of good and evil, which those above stated codes seem to indicate.
CONFIDENTIAL to kanicbird: PRINCIPLE.

That is all.
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:36 AM
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Sage Rat and Slow Moving Vehicle are pretty close to the mark. The idea of offending people is interesting. Satanists (and many who look to the Americans' Constitution) see religious expression as a sacred right, but there is no right to "not be offended". The temple uses such offense and the attention it generates to further their agenda. I'm not saying this to be provocative, they freely admit as much. However, for all the hysteria-inducing gloom of their imagery, what with Baphomet, et al, their agenda is just to receive equal treatment for their beliefs from the government. Not superior, but certainly not inferior.

Granted, there may well be a love of attention or mischief. Lucian is a lawyer and Michelle is a model/exotic dancer. It's certainly conceivable that argumentation or attention may be something to which they are drawn. But, another friend of mine, who is a Humanist preacher raised in the Southern Pentecostal tradition before joining the Community of Reason admitted that he loved the spotlight as well. Enjoying a job or cause doesn't render it unworthy.

Dear Anton loved his theatrics and much of the Satanic Bible is ridiculous or just gibberish. "Enochian Keys"? As for where Satan fits into the Satanic Temple; he is a symbol of independence, rebellion, and reason. Lucian and Michelle (I bring these two up again, because I have spoken with them first-hand and they have leadership roles in the organization) see him as a symbol for their values. After all, if we take the Bible at face value, it was the serpent who incited Eve to partake of knowledge. Better to stand on one's own feet without gods or against them, than be subservient.

As far as symbols go, I myself wear a medal of St. Erasmus of Formia (aka St. Elmo). I do this in solidarity with my wife, as she has fought cancer and been wracked with abdominal pain and St. Erasmus is patron of abdominal pain (as well as childbirth and sailors), to remind her that her pain is always close to my heart. I got her an identical medal that she sometimes wears; mine has not left my neck for more than a few moments in many years. So, one needn't regard a personage as literally real in order to recognize their potency as symbols.

Neither Michelle nor Julian struck me as Libertarian in the sense it is commonly used now. I don't remember either of them suggesting that government is greatly over-grown. Rather, they think (rightly) that religious organizations aren't pulling their weight via their codified exemption from both taxes and the vetting as non-profit agencies to which secular charities have to submit.

All-in-all, most of HSGP regarded Satanists as siblings in belief, though a louder, more controversial, more confrontational version of ourselves. Though, to be fair, we get death-threats, vandalism, etc. too. Were it not for the vulnerability of my family, I'd be just as confrontational, though at my age, I've pretty much just given up on America and only want a worker's visa to emigrate to the First World.
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:39 AM
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I'd also disagree with the word "cult". Though not a word used by clinical personnel, "cult" is nearly universally understood to mean a community or organization containing a dynamic that prioritizes the goals, needs, and wishes of (sometimes) the collective or (usually) the leader over the autonomy of the individual. Individual rights and freedoms are among the most important values of Humanism and Satanism. While courtesy, respect, and civility are expected, dissent is celebrated. By such standards, either community is even less a cult than many secular organizations and virtually all mainstream religions.
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Old 08-04-2019, 07:44 AM
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Sounds good to me! But please explain, how does Satan fit into it?

Reminds me of the7 UU principles:
Principle 1: The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
Principle 2: Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
Principle 3: Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
Principle 4: A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
Principle 5: The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
Principle 6: The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
Principle 7: Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Also good stuff in the Humanist manifestos. Lots of good lessons to live by, when you eliminate the fairy tales.
To be honest, I tend to see the word “Satanic” as being so semantically loaded, that it’s pretty much trolling to use it in your religion’s name.
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Old 08-04-2019, 07:47 AM
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CONFIDENTIAL to kanicbird: PRINCIPLE.

That is all.
Sure, but you need a bureaucrat to be in charge of policy.
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Old 08-04-2019, 01:22 PM
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It's not got the pithiness of "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", but it's as good as you can get without all the coke and smack that goes into a real Beast's creed.
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Old 08-04-2019, 04:46 PM
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The New Testament provided guidance led to the development of western civilization. These concepts wouldn’t have been conceivable absent the existence of Christianity. In some ways these tenets are a better interpretation of of the philosophy of Jesus than some modern Christian sects.
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:16 PM
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Yeah, if the were serious about this, they wouldn't have chosen the name the Temple of Satan. That would put potential converts off.

If they wanted a symbol of a rebellious font of reason for humanity, why not choose a name like the temple of Prometheus? Same concept, less obnoxious.
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Old 08-05-2019, 06:31 PM
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Yeah, if the were serious about this, they wouldn't have chosen the name the Temple of Satan. That would put potential converts off.

If they wanted a symbol of a rebellious font of reason for humanity, why not choose a name like the temple of Prometheus? Same concept, less obnoxious.
Probably because they didn’t have a lot of confidence that people would make the connection with rebellion. OTOH, Satan doesn’t evoke “rebellion” to most people, so much as “evil for its own sake.”

So yeah, Prometheus would’ve been a better choice.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:20 PM
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No wonder the godly hate them
I consider myself a qualified G-d-botherer and don't hate them. I feel they could have picked a better name, but I feel they do a lot of good work

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Originally Posted by Slow Moving Vehicle View Post
As I understand it, part of TST's mission is to defend church-state separation. And they use Satanic imagery to do that; when legislators in Arkansas wanted to put a memorial to the Ten Commandments on the grounds of the state capitol, the TST applied to erect a statue of Baphomet nearby, arguing that the Arkansas state legislature could not erect a Judeo-Christian monument but forbid a Satanic one. They got a site permit too, but the Arkansas legislature withdrew permission for the Ten Commandments monument, instead.
NOT a "Judeo-Christian monument" but a Christian one. If it were a Jewish monument, the text would have been in Hebrew. The annoying Christians who made and mounted the thing may have told folks that the monument stood for Judaism too. They lied. The same way the city of Philadelphia lies when they say the lamp post decorations put up each winter are snowflakes. First off, snowflakes have six points not eight. Second, the decorations are obviously rayed crosses. Violates the establishment clause, it does. Pisses me off.


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I think they do very important work, and generally hold them in some regard.
As do I.
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Old 08-05-2019, 07:22 PM
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The New Testament provided guidance led to the development of western civilization. These concepts wouldn’t have been conceivable absent the existence of Christianity.
Thanks, I really needed a good laugh.
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Old 08-06-2019, 02:35 AM
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I posit that these tenets are far superior to the moral guidance provided in the Ten Commandments or the New Testament of the Bible. I'm not nearly as familiar with the Quran, but in my limited understanding they're also superior to the guidance of that text.

Morality being a human construct, this is, of course, just my opinion. But if you disagree, why do you believe your preferred set of religious guidance is superior to these seven tenets? What proper moral behavior do you believe is not covered by these seven?
Voyager and I noted this in the religion thread, but your usage of "superior" assumes the conclusion. Satanism is morally superior to you because it covers all of the morals; but this presupposes that the Divine command theory is false or that God does not exist. You are assuming that there is a single static set of morals or universal truths when there may be none, or they may be based on the whims or nature of a God.

~Max

Last edited by Max S.; 08-06-2019 at 02:39 AM. Reason: Voyager not Velocity
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:03 AM
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Voyager and I noted this in the religion thread, but your usage of "superior" assumes the conclusion. Satanism is morally superior to you because it covers all of the morals; but this presupposes that the Divine command theory is false or that God does not exist. You are assuming that there is a single static set of morals or universal truths when there may be none, or they may be based on the whims or nature of a God.

~Max
I'm not assuming anything -- these are just my opinions. I think these are superior, based on my own beliefs and choices about morality. If you disagree, what is the basis for your disagreement?

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-06-2019 at 07:04 AM.
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Old 08-06-2019, 07:06 AM
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Voyager and I noted this in the religion thread, but your usage of "superior" assumes the conclusion. Satanism is morally superior to you because it covers all of the morals; but this presupposes that the Divine command theory is false or that God does not exist. You are assuming that there is a single static set of morals or universal truths when there may be none, or they may be based on the whims or nature of a God.

~Max
Much as with the case of a teapot orbiting Saturn, it is reasonable, in fact entirely rational, to presume the non-existence of god and divine command unless and until it is shown otherwise. So while some may choose to embrace moral ambiguity as an illustration of skill in rhetorical pedantry, others pick a side that seems sensible and just, and roll with it until it is proven to be otherwise. YMMV.
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:13 AM
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Much as with the case of a teapot orbiting Saturn, it is reasonable, in fact entirely rational, to presume the non-existence of god and divine command unless and until it is shown otherwise. So while some may choose to embrace moral ambiguity as an illustration of skill in rhetorical pedantry, others pick a side that seems sensible and just, and roll with it until it is proven to be otherwise. YMMV.
There isn't any difference between assuming divine command as sensible and just until proven otherwise, and assuming Satanism (or anything else) as sensible and just until proven otherwise.

So, Nobody's MVs.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:19 AM
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There isn't any difference between assuming divine command as sensible and just until proven otherwise, and assuming Satanism (or anything else) as sensible and just until proven otherwise.

So, Nobody's MVs.

Regards,
Shodan
This is clearly false, since there are many hundreds of divine commands from different gods -- how do you choose which is sensible and just? Ra? Zeus? Allah? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Bob? Jim Jones? The crazy guy on the corner? Jesus? Paul? Manson? Joseph Smith? Jehovah? Odin?

Are you defending Odin's divine commands here?

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Old 08-06-2019, 08:23 AM
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This is clearly false, since there are many hundreds of divine commands from different gods -- how do you choose which is sensible and just? Ra? Zeus? Allah? The Flying Spaghetti Monster? Bob? Jim Jones? The crazy guy on the corner? Jesus? Paul? Manson? Joseph Smith? Jehovah? Odin?

Are you defending Odin's divine commands here?
Whichever one you pick has exactly the same validity as Satanism.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:27 AM
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The OP isn't asking about Satanism, it's asking about the seven tenets themselves compared to other religious guidance.

How do you think it compares to, say, the OT's prohibition against mixing fibers or stoning adulterers or Paul's admonition against women speaking in church?
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:50 AM
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The OP isn't asking about Satanism, it's asking about the seven tenets themselves compared to other religious guidance.

How do you think it compares to, say, the OT's prohibition against mixing fibers or stoning adulterers or Paul's admonition against women speaking in church?
They're the same, or at least are also based on unproven and unprovable axioms.

So, when you compare the seven tenets to other religious guidance, you find that they are valid or invalid depending on whether you accept the axioms on faith. All moral statements are that way, without exception. "I feel that way" is the only justification.

Regards,
Shodan
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Old 08-06-2019, 08:52 AM
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They're the same, or at least are also based on unproven and unprovable axioms.

So, when you compare the seven tenets to other religious guidance, you find that they are valid or invalid depending on whether you accept the axioms on faith. All moral statements are that way, without exception. "I feel that way" is the only justification.

Regards,
Shodan
I'm specifically asking how you feel. What do you think, and why? If you feel nothing, or make no moral judgment about anything, that would also be an answer.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:04 AM
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They're the same, or at least are also based on unproven and unprovable axioms.

So, when you compare the seven tenets to other religious guidance, you find that they are valid or invalid depending on whether you accept the axioms on faith. All moral statements are that way, without exception. "I feel that way" is the only justification.

Regards,
Shodan
iiandyiiii already answered my first objection, which is that the OP is asking for your opinion on the seven tenets.

However, I disagree that there's faith involved -- I can use reason to try and find moral guidance that will minimize suffering, maximize happiness, or some other measurement.

Your statement is basically saying that all of philosophy is faith-based, which makes no sense to me. You can look at chimp and bonobo societies to see what kind of morals they employ to live in a community and to protect that community from outsiders, and see that some of our moral sense is obviously evolved from our ancestors. You can reason through the implications of various moral statements and see if they will improve, say, happiness, have no effect on it, or make it worse. For example, several of the Ten Commandments will basically have no effect on happiness (no other gods, Lord's name in vain). Many of the restrictions in the rest of Leviticus may decrease it (especially if you enjoy shellfish or pork), as will Paul's requirement that women don't speak in church. Some will increase happiness (don't commit murder).

IMO, the seven tenets above are a pretty good guide to living, with the wheat already separated from the chaff. What are your thoughts?

iiandyiiii, if you think this is a hijack, I'll drop it.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RitterSport View Post
iiandyiiii already answered my first objection, which is that the OP is asking for your opinion on the seven tenets.

However, I disagree that there's faith involved -- I can use reason to try and find moral guidance that will minimize suffering, maximize happiness, or some other measurement.

Your statement is basically saying that all of philosophy is faith-based, which makes no sense to me. You can look at chimp and bonobo societies to see what kind of morals they employ to live in a community and to protect that community from outsiders, and see that some of our moral sense is obviously evolved from our ancestors. You can reason through the implications of various moral statements and see if they will improve, say, happiness, have no effect on it, or make it worse. For example, several of the Ten Commandments will basically have no effect on happiness (no other gods, Lord's name in vain). Many of the restrictions in the rest of Leviticus may decrease it (especially if you enjoy shellfish or pork), as will Paul's requirement that women don't speak in church. Some will increase happiness (don't commit murder).

IMO, the seven tenets above are a pretty good guide to living, with the wheat already separated from the chaff. What are your thoughts?

iiandyiiii, if you think this is a hijack, I'll drop it.
I don't have a problem with this as a side discussion, as long as it doesn't push aside the main discussion. I'm interested in feelings and opinions on these tenets and other religious moral guidance, and I think your post above qualifies as your feelings/opinions.
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Old 08-06-2019, 09:20 AM
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...So, when you compare the seven tenets to other religious guidance, you find that they are valid or invalid depending on whether you accept the axioms on faith. All moral statements are that way, without exception. "I feel that way" is the only justification.
I think a disbelief in the supernatural is far more rational - and far more likely to be "valid", than a belief in the supernatural. So a set of tenets that reflect what is observable and provable is, IMO, far superior to one that relies on something like, "I am the Lord your God..."

Most philosophical arguments for morality are superior to ones that rely on a belief in the commands of a mystical sky pixie. Some "beliefs" are more likely to be valid than others. To contend otherwise, suggests one is an apologist for a weak position.
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Old 08-06-2019, 10:36 AM
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The New Testament provided guidance led to the development of western civilization. These concepts wouldn’t have been conceivable absent the existence of Christianity. In some ways these tenets are a better interpretation of of the philosophy of Jesus than some modern Christian sects.
Titus the fixer:

"5 For when we came into Macedonia, we had no rest, but we were harassed at every turn—conflicts on the outside, fears within. 6 But God, who comforts the downcast, comforted us by the coming of Titus, 7 and not only by his coming but also by the comfort you had given him. He told us about your longing for me, your deep sorrow, your ardent concern for me, so that my joy was greater than ever.

8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12 So even though I wrote to you, it was neither on account of the one who did the wrong nor on account of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13 By all this we are encouraged.

In addition to our own encouragement, we were especially delighted to see how happy Titus was, because his spirit has been refreshed by all of you. 14 I had boasted to him about you, and you have not embarrassed me. But just as everything we said to you was true, so our boasting about you to Titus has proved to be true as well. 15 And his affection for you is all the greater when he remembers that you were all obedient, receiving him with fear and trembling. 16 I am glad I can have complete confidence in you."

Translation: The letter I sent with my guy Titus here made you all sad because it gave Titus authority to deal out hurt to anyone teaching heretical versions of Christianity (e.g. Cerinthus of Corinth and his followers). Obviously, you all weren't guilty of any of those heretical ideas like the one Titus had to deal with - the injured one - and we expect continued obedience to whatever Titus tells you to do.

Praise be to Jesus.

It's not for nothing that, as soon as the Romans stopped killing Christians, the Christians started to kill Christians as fast as possible to get rid of the heretics.

Western Civilization came 1500 years later, when the printing press allowed thinkers to hold debates from long distances.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 08-06-2019 at 10:39 AM.
  #50  
Old 08-06-2019, 10:41 AM
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I'm not assuming anything -- these are just my opinions. I think these are superior, based on my own beliefs and choices about morality. If you disagree, what is the basis for your disagreement?
I disagree, but my disagreement is ultimately baseless. because I assert you have no objective standard by which to compare two different moral systems.

I have my own system of morals which agrees with the tenets of The Satanic Temple, but I admit that my own morals are ultimately baseless.

~Max

Last edited by Max S.; 08-06-2019 at 10:46 AM.
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