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  #151  
Old 08-12-2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Ulfreida View Post
I think it had something to do with it.
Actually, main reason Germany wasn't a target is because they were all but defeated by the time the bombs were ready. Berlin had been one possibility.


That's not to say racism didn't play a small part, but it was much more likely timing. If the US had been capable of doing so sooner, or if Germany was still going strong, we wouldn't have hesitated to nuke them.
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  #152  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:56 AM
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White supremacists have control over the executive branch of the United States government.
Also potentially relevant: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/...tch-determines

A senior official at the state department was one of the neo-nazis at Charlottesville.
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  #153  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:32 AM
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...I've already cited this. People that aren't white are the targets of white supremacy. The ICE raids, what they are doing with the Green Cards, this isn't an accident. The Venn diagram should be crystal clear. If you are white then you are unlikely ever to have an ICE agent come up to you and demand your papers. Thats the point.
If this was say Great Britian or Denmark and this was about 20 years ago when they had hordes of people coming in from eastern Europe, yes they would be.

But we dont. We have Mexico and Central America with millions of people there desperate for a better life and governments who basically are dumping them on our doorstep (as long as they then send money home) and if you are obviously hispanic or haitian or African, cant speak a word of english, yes your probably going to be stopped.
  #154  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:37 AM
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If at all possible, remind or educate folks like you that white supremacists are an ideological threat to American society and the world at large.
But what if they are not? What if it is a made up threat from a media or a special interest group DESPERATE for a villain (hey guys in white robes burning crosses sells) to focus attention on because they have an agenda?

I mean look at all the press the Fred Phelps crowd gets. The press acted like he was going to take over the world. In reality its about 20-30 people from a tiny church in Topeka KS who got WAY more publicity than they deserved.
  #155  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by XT View Post
Ok, third time is the charm. Like plants crave Brondo, XT's crave tequila. It does a body good!



Yes, that's exactly what I meant. I believe that nationalism is a MUCH bigger threat to not only American lives but to the world. The 3 most numberous countries on the planet are all very nationalistic...and 2 of them aren't white. In addition, American nationalism is a bit different than you seem to be aware. From an earlier post I seem to recall you aren't an American, so perhaps you don't know this stuff so let me walk you through it. Maybe then you'll see that it's not about being white, and that non-whites can actually be as fervently, even fanatically nationalistic as white folks.

So, I started to notice this about 10 years back or so. I'm not a huge sports fan. I never had much use for any sports except martial arts, and I was never that interested in watching them. However, a lot of my friends are into sports at all levels...highschool, college and professional. Anyway, after 9/11 I noticed a lot more fervency in the crowd during things like the national anthem. Also, that a lot more nationalistic symbols of the US were on display. Finally, that the near reverence for the military had gotten to disturbing, or at least uncomfortable levels (for me at least). And, looking around at the crowd, it was clear that no one really noticed.

Now, a respect for the military and the country are important, even vital for the citizens. But this was at a whole other level. It was a bit creepy, and I'm a former military. When I was actually in the military, it was nothing like it is today at even highschool or college games. And that's not the only place where nationalism is apparent, to me at least. Maybe I'm like the OP...maybe I am seeing it blown out of proportion, but ISTM that US nationalism is making us more belligerant. And this isn't JUST whites. In my own family I've seen a change in attitudes. Like most extended hispanic families, there are a lot of us...and most of the family is Democrat. In fact, until 9/11 nearly all of them were Democrats to the core. But that's changed. Now, unreal as it might seem, several of my uncles and cousins are Republicans, and several of them, including my Dad until he passed away, were actually Trump supporters. Now try and wrap your head around that for just a second...my dad, mom, uncles and aunts, my grandma, all of that generation came here from Mexico. My dad was a bit easier to understand...he joined the military during the Vietnam war so that my mom and my siblings could become Americans, and be Americans. But the rest? It's hard to fathom. But the reason is, IMHO...nationalism. All of my family are fervent patriots, regardless of whether they are Democrats and hate Trump or Republicans and love him. But Democrat or Republican, they want the US to be confrontational in the world. China pissing us off? Trade war is A-Ok. North Korea a constant thorn? We should Do Something(tm) about that! EU being unfair in their trade? Hammer them into submission! Mexico(!!) getting advantages over us on trade and by sending their people here to steal our healthcare and jobs and send the money back to the home land? Well, we will fix THEIR wagons!

I think US nationalism has gotten out of hand, and has made us a nation ready to confront instead of lead, to reach for a bigger hammer instead of work with our allies. And the thing is, Chinese nationalism is even worse. Then you have Indian nationalism. And of course, the Japanese are going through a nationalistic phase. And then, horror of horrors, the Europeans are actually seemingly moving back towards nationalism...and that IS your white nationalism in a nut shell. Pun intended. Several countries in Africa are also in nationalistic grips.

All of these things, IMHO, are bigger 'ideological threat to American lives' than white supremacists in the US, who are a relatively small number in the greater scheme of things and who, again IMHO have little traction outside of their slimy caves and under dank rocks.

So, yes...I meant nationalism. And I meant it when I said that non-whites can and are fervent nationalists, just like white folks. Immigrants in the US are VERY fervent nationalists, IMHO and my experience, and this isn't just with my own family. And, yeah, the national anthem thing is disturbing...more for what it indicates and the vibe I get than anything I can spell out, especially with this much tequila. I'll leave it there since I probably wrote a stream of consious book at this point. Hopefully it's not as angry or warning filled as the last 2 attempts.
First off, a very interesting and well-thought post - I appreciate that, XT.

I agree with many of your observations about nationalism generally, but I think white nationalism is an off-shoot of nationalism itself and in some sense runs parallel to the broader nationalism.

Race and racism is a part of America's identity as a nation, and there's no way to escape from that. I acknowledge your personal examples and your overall point about your Hispanic family members becoming Republican and nationalistic. But my other hypothesis is that there is a degree of "whitening" that visible minorities go through. There was, for instance, a time in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries when immigrants from Southern Europe were treated almost as badly as Blacks born here. This consequently led to a "whitening" among Italian and earlier Hispanic immigrant populations. "Whitening" involves taking steps to join the mainstream, which means everything from learning to speak English with near native proficiency to joining the military. For others, it means simply succeeding at the American dream and becoming a 1 percenter. We see this with engineering students who come here from South and East Asia today, becoming engineers and Silicon Valley millionaires, in turn raising children who are fully integrated into the American mainstream.

The flip side to this, however, is that there are white Americans who will refuse to acknowledge these efforts at joining the mainstream because they are so clearly non-white that they're just easy targets, and there are too many whites in this country who need scapegoats for why they're 35 and broke and can't get laid, and there are too many oligarchs who benefit from telling these types that even though they're losers by many yardsticks, they can still be better than brown people.

Last edited by asahi; 08-13-2019 at 06:41 AM.
  #156  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:49 AM
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White Supremacists are part of a significantly large Fascist element in this nation. They radicalize young people and produce "mass shooters" just like groups like ISIS produce "suicide bombers". I consider them far more dangerous than ISIS because they are the enemy within. They represent by far the greatest terrorist threat that we face. They are a threat to our democracy and the ideals upon which the Constitution is based.
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  #157  
Old 08-13-2019, 06:58 AM
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I mean look at all the press the Fred Phelps crowd gets. The press acted like he was going to take over the world. In reality its about 20-30 people from a tiny church in Topeka KS who got WAY more publicity than they deserved.
Interesting comparison.

Here's a small sampling of white nationalist youtube channels:

Lauren Southern
714,709 subscribers
59,199,255 views

Stefan Molyneux
920,471 subscribers
278,324,866 views

Gavin McInnes
354,577 subscribers
41,084,259 views

That's just three moderately large channels of people who are very obviously white supremacists.

I don't think we can make any kind of reasonable comparison to the westboro baptist church.
  #158  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:06 AM
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White Supremacists are part of a significantly large Fascist element in this nation. They radicalize young people and produce "mass shooters" just like groups like ISIS produce "suicide bombers". I consider them far more dangerous than ISIS because they are the enemy within. They represent by far the greatest terrorist threat that we face. They are a threat to our democracy and the ideals upon which the Constitution is based.
They're more dangerous than ISIS because unlike ISIS, they can legitimately hold real political power. Since the 1960s, changes in cultural attitudes have hitherto made it messy for people in power to be nakedly racist. But all that has changed in the last several years.

That's why Donald Trump is such a toxic president: we can argue all day about how much of a racist Trump is or isn't, but what's much less debatable is the fact that he is mainstreaming white supremacist power. If people want to argue that he's not really a racist and he's just using it as a political gambit, they can argue that if they wish but that doesn't fundamentally change the reality. He is making racism socially acceptable again, and don't let the public take-downs of bigots on YouTube delude you into believing that we're better than that. Those take-downs represent an attempt by the rest of us to fight racism, to fight for an inclusive and egalitarian society, and to preserve and uphold decency. But those values are under direct attack right now and they're being battered in ways that we thought were once unfathomable in our lifetime, which brings me to another point:

Establishing, or in this case re-establishing, an entire society founded upon race-based hierarchy takes some time. There's a period of normalization that has to take place before the real white nationalism begins overtaking our social and political culture. That's what's happening now. White nationalists are telling white America that they don't have to accept the inevitability of diversity, and that they don't have to accept sharing their society and its resources with non-whites. They're selling the America that existed at the time of the American colonies: a country of, by, and for white men, and to a lesser extent, white women. They're selling us on white patriarchy. I'd like to believe that the rest of white America is good enough and wise enough to reject this proposed alternative, but I also understand that humans are very easily scared and very easily conned into believing that doing something inherently evil somehow satisfies their perceived needs and protects their self interests. History is just too full of examples that demonstrate this.

Last edited by asahi; 08-13-2019 at 07:08 AM.
  #159  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:22 AM
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So it makes perfect sense to shoot them and/or to take actions that result in separating them from their children?
What a bizarre non sequitur.
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It's no great insight to point out that racists focus their actions against those they identify as undesirable.
The difficulty is that it is also not a great insight to point out that illegal immigrants are undesirable because they are illegal immigrants, not because of their ethnicity, but it is an insight that seems to be beyond the grasp of many.

Regards,
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  #160  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:53 AM
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The difficulty is that it is also not a great insight to point out that illegal immigrants are undesirable because they are illegal immigrants, not because of their ethnicity, but it is an insight that seems to be beyond the grasp of many.

Regards,
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By all means let's do avoid speaking about the elephant in the room. The problem isn't white supremacists and racists among us. The problem is the illegal immigrants. Get rid of the immigrants and the racist assholes will stop being racists assholes. Problem solved. Wonderful insight as usual, Shodan.
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  #161  
Old 08-13-2019, 07:58 AM
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By all means let's do avoid speaking about the elephant in the room. The problem isn't white supremacists and racists among us. The problem is the illegal immigrants. Get rid of the immigrants and the racist assholes will stop being racists assholes. Problem solved. Wonderful insight as usual, Shodan.
Again, I have to point out that not all those opposed to illegal immigration are even white, and even if they are white many have issues with illegal immigration that has nothing to do with white supremacy. Also, just to defend Shodan, he didn't say this would solve the problem, and I seriously doubt he thinks that if we managed to fix the illegal immigration issue it would magically make all the racists go away. Only time, shame and ridicule will make them crawl back under their rocks or bridges...even that won't make them magically disappear.
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  #162  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:03 AM
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Interesting comparison.

Here's a small sampling of white nationalist youtube channels:

Lauren Southern
714,709 subscribers
59,199,255 views

Stefan Molyneux
920,471 subscribers
278,324,866 views

Gavin McInnes
354,577 subscribers
41,084,259 views

That's just three moderately large channels of people who are very obviously white supremacists.

I don't think we can make any kind of reasonable comparison to the westboro baptist church.
Southern considers herself a white nationalist I believe. Do you have evidence that these folks are white supremacists?
  #163  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:39 AM
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Southern considers herself a white nationalist I believe. Do you have evidence that these folks are white supremacists?


Definition of white nationalist: one of a group of militant whites who espouse white supremacy and advocate enforced racial segregation.

Can I google anything else for you?
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  #164  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:39 AM
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Southern considers herself a white nationalist I believe. Do you have evidence that these folks are white supremacists?
Potato, potato

What is the distinction you are trying to make? White Nationalism is abhorrent too, so why is that ok? As far as I can tell white nationalism is just the new name white supremacists are using to make it more palatable, but it's the same thing.
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  #165  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:55 AM
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Definition of white nationalist: one of a group of militant whites who espouse white supremacy and advocate enforced racial segregation.

Can I google anything else for you?
Yes well Southern has explicitly rejected white supremacy and forced segregation.

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Originally Posted by Airbeck View Post
Potato, potato

What is the distinction you are trying to make? White Nationalism is abhorrent too, so why is that ok? As far as I can tell white nationalism is just the new name white supremacists are using to make it more palatable, but it's the same thing.
Didnít say white nationalism was ok. I said it is different than white supremacy. National movements have been going on for over a century. Many have been peaceful and non-objectionable.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:57 AM
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Didnít say white nationalism was ok. I said it is different than white supremacy. National movements have been going on for over a century. Many have been peaceful and non-objectionable.
It's the 'White' part that is the problem. You should stop trying to defend this, it's not a good look.
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  #167  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:06 AM
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Again, I have to point out that not all those opposed to illegal immigration are even white, and even if they are white many have issues with illegal immigration that has nothing to do with white supremacy. Also, just to defend Shodan, he didn't say this would solve the problem, and I seriously doubt he thinks that if we managed to fix the illegal immigration issue it would magically make all the racists go away. Only time, shame and ridicule will make them crawl back under their rocks or bridges...even that won't make them magically disappear.
I stipulated earlier in my response to your post that racism is not unique to white people. Neither is anti-immigrant sentiment.

What is being discussed and evidenced by multiple well documented incidents is rising white supremacism that typically targets minorities. To attempt to excuse it by blaming illegal immigration serves only to contribute to the problem. To address the problem directly, it's best to avoid conflating the two. But he didn't. He tried to cover it up by saying it's an illegal immigration problem. No it isn't. We know this because there has been a significant rise in crime against minorities in the past 2.5 years, most of whom were either born here or have legal status.
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Last edited by QuickSilver; 08-13-2019 at 09:07 AM.
  #168  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:15 AM
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Yes well Southern has explicitly rejected white supremacy and forced segregation.
If you can't believe a white nationalist, who can you believe?

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Didnít say white nationalism was ok. I said it is different than white supremacy.
What, like in a, 'separate but equal', sort of way?...
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  #169  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:22 AM
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It's the 'White' part that is the problem. You should stop trying to defend this, it's not a good look.
Seriously.

White nationalists want to create a white ethnostate by forcibly ejecting non-white people from countries with non-trivial non-white populations. They justify this by appealing to white supremacist propaganda about "the great replacement" and "white genocide", wherein the mere existence of non-white people becomes treated as a threat to "whiteness". Whether or not they believe that non-white people are inherently inferior (most of them clearly do), the end result of their beliefs is genocide. Ian Danskin has an excellent overview here.

Splitting hairs between white nationalists and white supremacists, as though the former was more than a euphemism used by the latter, is not a good look. To quote the ADL:
White Nationalism
White nationalism is a term that originated among white supremacists as a euphemism for white supremacy. Eventually, some white supremacists tried to distinguish it further by using it to refer to a form of white supremacy that emphasizes defining a country or region by white racial identity and which seeks to promote the interests of whites exclusively, typically at the expense of people of other backgrounds.
Bolding mine.
  #170  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:42 AM
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White Supremacy: "Whites are the superior race!"
White Nationalism: "In this country Whites are the superior race!"

Yeah-I can see where they are totally different.
  #171  
Old 08-13-2019, 09:54 AM
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NM

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  #172  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:19 AM
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The difficulty is that it is also not a great insight to point out that illegal immigrants are undesirable because they are illegal immigrants, not because of their ethnicity, but it is an insight that seems to be beyond the grasp of many.
But the current administration is doing its best to make it illegal for even otherwise desirable immigrants to immigrate. So saying they'd be fine if they'd just come in legally is nonsense, because many desired and desirable people are forbidden to do so; which is an insight that seems to be beyond the grasp of many.
  #173  
Old 08-13-2019, 10:46 AM
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I don't think "illegal immigrants" are de facto bad when the nations immigration laws are cataclysmically stupid and our immigration services are purposely poorly run.
  #174  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:02 AM
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But the current administration is doing its best to make it illegal for even otherwise desirable immigrants to immigrate. So saying they'd be fine if they'd just come in legally is nonsense, because many desired and desirable people are forbidden to do so; which is an insight that seems to be beyond the grasp of many.
Those who violate the law and come here illegally are inherently less desirable than those who follow the process. So we kick out the ones who break the law, and then the process of deciding who is desirable and who is not can work.

There is no shortage of desirable immigrants who want to come to the US. Those who sneak in in contravention of the law are not included in that number.

Regards,
Shodan
  #175  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:04 AM
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It's the 'White' part that is the problem. You should stop trying to defend this, it's not a good look.
Why is the “white” part a problem? Is a peaceful white nationalist movement inconceivable? As I said nationalist movements have sometimes had positive outcomes.

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Seriously.

White nationalists want to create a white ethnostate by forcibly ejecting non-white people from countries with non-trivial non-white populations.
Ok if that is how you define white nationalism, then the three individuals you mentioned explicitly reject white nationalism.

Quote:
Splitting hairs between white nationalists and white supremacists, as though the former was more than a euphemism used by the latter, is not a good look. To quote the ADL:
White Nationalism
White nationalism is a term that originated among white supremacists as a euphemism for white supremacy. Eventually, some white supremacists tried to distinguish it further by using it to refer to a form of white supremacy that emphasizes defining a country or region by white racial identity and which seeks to promote the interests of whites exclusively, typically at the expense of people of other backgrounds.
Bolding mine.
I’m not interested in what is considered a good look by propaganda organizations.

I’m interested in clarity more than smear terms.

Your claim that the three individuals want to forcibly eject non-“whites” is false. I have no doubt that you will fail to support the claim, but you will continue to smear and link to YouTube videos.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 08-13-2019 at 11:05 AM.
  #176  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:05 AM
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Those who sneak in in contravention of the law are not included in that number.
Some of them are highly skilled, highly-hard-working, and highly moral -- they (the ones who are truly needy) rightly value feeding their families more than border laws. We should really try and keep those, since many of them would make absolutely top-notch Americans.
  #177  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:15 AM
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Those who violate the law and come here illegally are inherently less desirable than those who follow the process. So we kick out the ones who break the law, and then the process of deciding who is desirable and who is not can work.

There is no shortage of desirable immigrants who want to come to the US. Those who sneak in in contravention of the law are not included in that number.

Regards,
Shodan
Cool. But still not what we're talking about. Also, can you clarify for us, who are they trying to kick out when they scream "Send Her Back" at Trump's racist rallies??
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  #178  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:22 AM
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Why is the ďwhiteĒ part a problem? Is a peaceful white nationalist movement inconceivable? As I said nationalist movements have sometimes had positive outcomes.



Ok if that is how you define white nationalism, then the three individuals you mentioned explicitly reject white nationalism.



Iím not interested in what is considered a good look by propaganda organizations.

Iím interested in clarity more than smear terms.

Your claim that the three individuals want to forcibly eject non-ďwhitesĒ is false. I have no doubt that you will fail to support the claim, but you will continue to smear and link to YouTube videos.
We get it. White nationalists and white supremacists are speaking your language. You've made that abundantly clear.
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  #179  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:24 AM
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Is a peaceful white nationalist movement inconceivable?
Perhaps not. But IMHO a moral one is.
  #180  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:28 AM
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We get it. White nationalists and white supremacists are speaking your language. You've made that abundantly clear.
I bet you think these sentences mean something.

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Originally Posted by Tamerlane View Post
Perhaps not. But IMHO a moral one is.
Are all national movements immoral or just “white” ones?

In any case the thread is about dangerous ideologies, not immoral ideologies.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 08-13-2019 at 11:31 AM.
  #181  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:28 AM
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Some of them are highly skilled, highly-hard-working, and highly moral -- they (the ones who are truly needy) rightly value feeding their families more than border laws. We should really try and keep those, since many of them would make absolutely top-notch Americans.
Why do they have any more merit than people who live in Africa, Asia, or Eastern Europe who want to migrate to America?
  #182  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:29 AM
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Why do they have any more merit than people who live in Africa, Asia, or Eastern Europe who want to migrate to America?
Who says they do? And why are you presuming that this doesn't include immigrants from Africa, Asia, and Eastern Europe? It cetainly does.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-13-2019 at 11:30 AM.
  #183  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:31 AM
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Some of them are highly skilled, highly-hard-working, and highly moral...
Sure, sure - we're neck deep in doctors and engineers who snuck across the border.
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We should really try and keep those, since many of them would make absolutely top-notch Americans.
If they want to be top-notch Americans, maybe they can start off by obeying the law right from the get-go.

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  #184  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:34 AM
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Sure, sure - we're neck deep in doctors and engineers who snuck across the border.
Ahh, but there are other professions and skills that can be greatly useful to America. Even unskilled folks, if they are hard-working and decent, can contribute hugely to society.

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If they want to be top-notch Americans, maybe they can start off by obeying the law right from the get-go.
Unfortunately, for some of these folks, this would result in death or terrible suffering for themselves or their families. But they'd still make great Americans, and placing their families' lives and health above border laws is a demonstration of their moral decency. The fact that they made an incredible difficult journey and came out still able to work is a testament to their toughness and work ethic.

For those that this accurately describes, we should make them Americans, since they'd help make the country stronger and better. I support this kind of policy because I want my country to be stronger and wealthier, and making such folks Americans would greatly contribute to that.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 08-13-2019 at 11:35 AM.
  #185  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:41 AM
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Are all national movements immoral or just ďwhiteĒ ones?
All white ones and some of the other ones.
  #186  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:50 AM
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Yes those that advocate for “good” minorities have a long history. Beginning after the Civil War, they sought to indoctrinate former slaves and make them more “white”. They did the same with the Native Americans and Roman Catholic immigrants. This was largely the impetus behind public schooling. The progressives were horrified that Roman Catholics formed their own schools and brought their own customs to America. They pushed for universal public schooling for indoctrination purposes.

The same ideas persist today by those who favor immigrants who live up to the white Protestant ethic of America. “Hard working”, “moral”, and “pro-family” are code words for whiteness. The hope is that they become white like good Americans. Over time, certain ethnic groups have succeeded in the progressive dream of achieving whiteness, or at least passing for it. Italians, Irish, Jews, are all pretty much white now. Japanese and Koreans are also largely accepted into the white progressive notion of whiteness. This is all in the name of increasing the “strength” of the country, achieving national greatness through the adoption of whiteness by all.

Of course this form of white supremacy has much deeper and lasting ramifications than a few 4chan trolls, but it is pretty much ignored.

Last edited by WillFarnaby; 08-13-2019 at 11:53 AM.
  #187  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:51 AM
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All white ones and some of the other ones.
Is the truth of white nationalist immorality axiomatic or based on observation from history?
  #188  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:52 AM
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Honestly the point where someone is defending Molyneux, Southern, and McInnes is long past the point where any reasonable discussion has found its end.

The most important lesson you can learn while talking about fascists is this: fascists always lie. They cannot be trusted to convey the contents of their beliefs to you, because they understand full well that most of the world considers their beliefs incredibly toxic and vile. This is why Richard Spencer prefers "identitarian" to "nazi", why the NSDAP called itself a "socialist worker's party" (despite their first concentration camps being for socialist dissidents), and why Milo Yiannopolous knowingly lied to downplay the neo-nazi connections in the alt-right in his first article on the subject, all the while being coached by actual fucking neo-nazis on how best to do it. They lie because they know they have to.

But hey, Lauren Southern has explicitly rejected getting rid of all the foreigners? Great! So... what's up with her defense of the "great replacement" conspiracy theory, then? You know, that conspiracy theory which implies certain very clear courses of actions for white people to take, lest they be "overrun" by foreigners and become the victims of "white genocide"? Actions that clearly imply the creation of a white ethnostate? Hmm. Almost as though she's a lying shitbag, like all the rest of her fashie buddies.

Fascists. Always. Lie.

Last edited by Budget Player Cadet; 08-13-2019 at 11:53 AM.
  #189  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:52 AM
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Are all national movements immoral or just “white” ones?
I'm on record as holding a low opinion of nationalism in general.

But whatever the debatable merits of nationalism as a broader concept, the subcategory of ethnic nationalism is far worse. I have real issues with even the most benign examples or those that I can sympathize with( like Israel, which arose in good part out of a very reasonable response to horrible oppression ). But there is nothing benign about "white nationalism" in the United States - it is and always has been tainted with racism of the worst sort.

Saying you can have a peaceful, non-racist white nationalist movement in the U.S. is like saying you can reclaim the swastika as a symbol of prosperity and good luck. It's just not going to happen. Even if you have some such concept( I'm really not sure how you'd even conceptually dodge racism in a white-centric group ), most of the people attracted to such a movement in this country are going to be shitheels.

Last edited by Tamerlane; 08-13-2019 at 11:55 AM.
  #190  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:01 PM
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All white ones and some of the other ones.
That seems a bit ... discriminatory on the basis of race.
  #191  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:06 PM
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Honestly the point where someone is defending Molyneux, Southern, and McInnes is long past the point where any reasonable discussion has found its end.

The most important lesson you can learn while talking about fascists is this: fascists always lie. They cannot be trusted to convey the contents of their beliefs to you, because they understand full well that most of the world considers their beliefs incredibly toxic and vile. This is why Richard Spencer prefers "identitarian" to "nazi", why the NSDAP called itself a "socialist worker's party" (despite their first concentration camps being for socialist dissidents), and why Milo Yiannopolous knowingly lied to downplay the neo-nazi connections in the alt-right in his first article on the subject, all the while being coached by actual fucking neo-nazis on how best to do it. They lie because they know they have to.

But hey, Lauren Southern has explicitly rejected getting rid of all the foreigners? Great! So... what's up with her defense of the "great replacement" conspiracy theory, then? You know, that conspiracy theory which implies certain very clear courses of actions for white people to take, lest they be "overrun" by foreigners and become the victims of "white genocide"? Actions that clearly imply the creation of a white ethnostate? Hmm. Almost as though she's a lying shitbag, like all the rest of her fashie buddies.

Fascists. Always. Lie.
You claimed they support the forcible removal of non-whites. They do not. You can tap dance all you want.

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I'm on record as holding a low opinion of nationalism in general.

But whatever the debatable merits of nationalism as a broader concept, the subcategory of ethnic nationalism is far worse. I have real issues with even the most benign examples or those that I can sympathize with( like Israel, which arose in good part out of a very reasonable response to horrible oppression ). But there is nothing benign about "white nationalism" in the United States - it is and always has been tainted with racism of the worst sort.

Saying you can have a peaceful, non-racist white nationalist movement in the U.S. is like saying you can reclaim the swastika as a symbol of prosperity and good luck. It's just not going to happen. Even if you have some such concept( I'm really not sure how you'd even conceptually dodge racism in a white-centric group ), most of the people attracted to such a movement in this country are going to be shitheels.
Ok thatís why I also reject white nationalism and believe it to be a poorly devised ideology to achieve goals, even when some former libertarianish individuals mentioned upthread are going on that direction. That said there is an important distinction to be made between those that favor violence (subject of the thread) and those that explicitly reject it.
  #192  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:14 PM
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That said there is an important distinction to be made between those that favor violence (subject of the thread) and those that explicitly reject it.
Those are the only choices? What about those that tacitly support it? And those that explicitly lie about rejecting it by claiming, "There are good people, on both sides!".
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  #193  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:17 PM
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Those are the only choices? What about those that tacitly support it? And those that explicitly lie about rejecting it by claiming, "There are good people, on both sides!".
If you explicitly reject violence you canít be said to tacitly support it.
  #194  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:23 PM
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If you explicitly reject violence you canít be said to tacitly support it.
Oh, but you can. You can even have a good old laugh about it.
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  #195  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:25 PM
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Ok bud. Of course if someone explicitly rejects violence but also holds differing political beliefs from you, you will try to smear him as a supporter of violence.
  #196  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:27 PM
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Ok bud. Of course if someone explicitly rejects violence but also holds differing political beliefs from you, you will try to smear him as a supporter of violence.
Trump has explicitly endorsed violence on multiple occasions.
  #197  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:28 PM
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Again, I have to point out that not all those opposed to illegal immigration are even white, and even if they are white many have issues with illegal immigration that has nothing to do with white supremacy.
You don't have to be white or consciously believe in literal white supremacy in order to have beliefs that are the product of white supremacy. Racist myths emerge from white supremacy. Actual racial disparities, from which people draw spurious racial conclusions, also emerge from white supremacy.

Are there theoretical reasons you could oppose illegal immigration that aren't based in white supremacy? Sure. But it certainly isn't "I just don't like people who break the law." That claim is always a pretext, asserted by the same people who don't give two shits when a police officer breaks the law and who would fight tooth and nail against decriminalization. It certainly isn't "but illegal immigrants are a drain on resources," a position taken by people who have no idea what the economic cost-benefit equation of immigration looks like. It isn't "we cannot have a nation without strong borders," something said by people who, despite saying this, believe the United States was in fact a nation prior to the Chinese Exclusion Act.

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Only time, shame and ridicule will make them crawl back under their rocks or bridges...even that won't make them magically disappear.
We can't even get politicians to stop putting up monuments to the people who tried to destroy the United States in the name of white supremacy. "Crawl back under their rocks" implies they have, at some point, been under rocks. They haven't.
  #198  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:29 PM
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Trump has explicitly endorsed violence on multiple occasions.
Ok thatís Trump. Iíve been talking about others. Of course Trump is violent. Commander in Chief, amirite?
  #199  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:31 PM
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Ok thatís Trump. Iíve been talking about others. Of course Trump is violent. Commander in Chief, amirite?
You disagreed with two posts referring to Trump's tacit (or explicit) endorsement of violence.
  #200  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:37 PM
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Interesting comparison.

Here's a small sampling of white nationalist youtube channels:

Lauren Southern
714,709 subscribers
59,199,255 views

Stefan Molyneux
920,471 subscribers
278,324,866 views

Gavin McInnes
354,577 subscribers
41,084,259 views

That's just three moderately large channels of people who are very obviously white supremacists.

I don't think we can make any kind of reasonable comparison to the westboro baptist church.
Never heard of them plus from what I Googled all 3 are Canadian.

Besides look at those subscriber numbers, thats still less than 1% of even the population of the US not to mention Canada and the rest of the world.

You SERIOUSLY think they are the next nazi party and will take over the US?
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