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  #51  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
See, I think this is where talks about equality go off the rails. You can either be equal or you can be biased. Bias by nature is not equal.
Trying to legislate equality by giving advantages to people (who may very well be needful of them) is by definition not equal.
Except that's simply not true.

If there's a significant unintentional hiring bias against black people, instituting an intentional hiring bias in favor of black people absolutely is a step towards equality. It's not as good as just getting rid of the first unintentional bias, but it's a damn sight better than what you're proposing, where the subconscious bias is allowed to run rampant with nobody noticing or caring, and any attempt to combat it is somehow "racism". (This is what we call the "colorblind" approach, and there's a reason it's generally considered totally absurd by anyone who actually spends time studying racism and its impact.)

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This is why I do not see a way to legislate away racial disparity in regards to what you WANT to see. We CAN legislate away racial disparity with what we DO SEE.
You will never ever know the person's mind or motivations. All of those white folks that got hired, all of them could or could NOT have been racially motivated. But you'd rather err on the side of calling everything racist (and you are far from the only one) than to just let things work themselves out by actually granting EVERYONE equality. (of opportunity anyway, because we all know that some folks want equality of outcomes to be the goal)
To quote Scott Alexander, "Arguing about whether a post-racial society should provide equality of opportunity or equality of results is a little like arguing about whether in the workerís paradise, everyone should have a pony or everyone should have two ponies."

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Right now, there is not even equality of opportunity. Rigorous well-controlled study after rigorous well-controlled study has shown that women and minorities face gigantic amounts of baseless discrimination in various areas, most notably employment. This remains true even when, for example, the experiment is sending perfectly identical resumes out to companies but with the photo of a black or white guy at the top.

Once we have equality of opportunity, then we can start debating whether we should go further and try for equality of results. Until then, itís kind of a moot point.
If the only racism you can detect is overt, explicit racism, you will miss almost all racism. Then, when the people who have actually been paying attention and following societal trends speak up and say, "Hey, we need to actually do something about this subconscious/covert racism," the response from those who haven't been paying attention is "HEY, WHY ARE YOU DISCRIMINATING AGAINST ME?!".

This is a phenomenally naive understanding of bias and equality that ignores nearly everything we know about modern racism and subconscious biases. The honest truth is that even with affirmative action programs, people of color are underrepresented in colleges, high-paying jobs, and the government.

But sure, let's act like the main racist problem today are programs that aim to deal with that gap.
  #52  
Old 08-13-2019, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Kearsen1 View Post
You can either be equal or you can be biased. Bias by nature is not equal.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread.

-- Anatole France
  #53  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Okay. What speech in English is better-known around the world than the "I Have a Dream" speech? What speech is better, both in context and delivery? What speech in any language fits these criteria?
Well for starters, I'm not entertaining a burden-of-proof shifting here, and second, you're asking me to disprove a subjective opinion. Maybe you value it that much, and I'll grant your right to an opinion, but ultimately this is a frivolous exercise.

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See, I think this is where talks about equality go off the rails. You can either be equal or you can be biased. Bias by nature is not equal.
Trying to legislate equality by giving advantages to people (who may very well be needful of them) is by definition not equal.
For the most part, I do agree with you, but with a nuance I think needs to be specified. Bias is not bad, provided what you are biased against itself is not bad. I am biased against believing people who already lied to me once, for instance. I agree that race based bias is unacceptable, but I'm fine with demonstrating bias by, say, helping people who can't afford an education getting one over providing the exact same monetary compensation to someone who doesn't.

In terms of equality, I think ensuring everyone a minimum degree of support in times of demonstrated need is still fair, even if it's not objectively "equal treatment."

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The honest truth is that even with affirmative action programs, people of color are underrepresented in colleges, high-paying jobs, and the government.
This is true, but what's that figure adjusted for poverty?
  #54  
Old 08-13-2019, 12:33 PM
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Somehow this history is different for the groups that were either brought against their will, or who already lived here when the Europeans arrived. I wonder if that history could have something to do with the difference in statistical outcomes?
History affects everybody, but what I am disputing is that hundreds of years of accumulation is what causes the difference in wealth. Immigrant groups show that significant wealth can be accumulated very quickly. For example Nigerian Americans earn 16% more than Cajun Americans, despite the fact that most Nigerian immigration happened in the last 30 years and Cajuns have been in this country for 250 years.
  #55  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:49 PM
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Like... a prescient example, Kearsen1.

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...d.php?t=880014

Is that racist?

From what I can tell, you have no way to tell. We can't see into the cops' hearts, so for all we know, they would have done that to anyone, and not just to a black man.

That said, everyone in that thread seems to be under the impression that this was super fucking racist. Why do you reckon that is?
  #56  
Old 08-13-2019, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
Well for starters, I'm not entertaining a burden-of-proof shifting here, and second, you're asking me to disprove a subjective opinion. Maybe you value it that much, and I'll grant your right to an opinion, but ultimately this is a frivolous exercise.
Talk about shifting the burden of proof--you called what I said hyperbolic. If you want to drop your silly point, I'm good with that, but if you really think it's hyperbolic, I'm interested to know why you say that.

I stand by what I said, as I cannot think of any other speech in English that's as well-known as this one.
  #57  
Old 08-13-2019, 03:28 PM
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Talk about shifting the burden of proof--you called what I said hyperbolic.
Ugh. You made a rather outsized claim. It's perfectly reasonable to doubt that you have heard every single speech ever written in english as you claim. Until you have, concluding that a speech you happen to like is the best ever is completely irrational. Such a claim is hyperbolic, unless you can prove that it isn't.

The burden of proof is yours, because you're making the absurd claim.

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I stand by what I said, as I cannot think of any other speech in English that's as well-known as this one.
That is the exact form of the "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy. Not knowing a better one doesn't prove in any way shape or form that no better one exists.
  #58  
Old 08-13-2019, 04:05 PM
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White people as a group have not spent 300 years aggregating wealth and power. Almost all the wealth a person accumulates over their lifetime is spent during their lifetimes. According to this study 75% of white people receive no inheritance at all.
As opposed to black people, where the number is... *checks notes* 13%.

And the figure that study found for white people was 41%.
The differences that they found between black and white families were stark. ďAmong college-educated black families, about 13 percent get an inheritance of more than $10,000, as opposed to about 41 percent of white, college-educated families,Ē Taylor said in a release announcing the new research. More specifically, white families that receive such an inheritance receive, on average, more than $150,000 from the previous generation, whereas that figure is less than $40,000 for black families.
The article goes into detail the many ways that these generational wealth transfers make a huge difference. The scope of the study is different (it deals specifically with wealth in families where someone went to college), but in a way this study is considerably more telling, given that "people who went to college" tend to have significantly more impact on society than those who don't - or does your company's CEO not have a degree?

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The highest earning ethnic group in the US are Indians and most of those came in the last 20 years.
The history of the US is a history of persecuted groups coming to the US, and achieving huge gains in wealth with little or no help from the government.
Y'know, I'm no expert on the discrimination faced by Indian immigrants or the effects it has on their wealth. Would you like to go over some of the studies looking into it?
  #59  
Old 08-13-2019, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by etasyde View Post
Ugh. You made a rather outsized claim. It's perfectly reasonable to doubt that you have heard every single speech ever written in english as you claim. Until you have, concluding that a speech you happen to like is the best ever is completely irrational. Such a claim is hyperbolic, unless you can prove that it isn't.

The burden of proof is yours, because you're making the absurd claim.



That is the exact form of the "Argument from Ignorance" fallacy. Not knowing a better one doesn't prove in any way shape or form that no better one exists.
Sometimes, you gotta have a little back-and-forth with someone in order to figure out how seriously to take their posts.

With you? That step's complete.
  #60  
Old 08-14-2019, 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Okay. What speech in English is better-known around the world than the "I Have a Dream" speech? What speech is better, both in context and delivery? What speech in any language fits these criteria?
Well, at the very least, wouldn't you say it's something of a US-centric view? I think you could probably say it's one of the greatest speeches given in AMERICAN history. But I definitely feel that someone from another country might disagree at the notion that it's the greatest speech in the WORLD.
  #61  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:49 AM
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Also, just a pattern I've noticed.

Whenever people make a racial analysis of class structures, the call comes - "it's not about race, it's about class". Well, not in those words, but the appeal is always about dealing with poverty instead of race.

Then, when the discussion is about class and poverty, the same people who object to talking about race this way seem to be against any means to reduce the wealth gap.

It just feels like a distraction, is all.
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  #62  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Sometimes, you gotta have a little back-and-forth with someone in order to figure out how seriously to take their posts.

With you? That step's complete.
Likewise, I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by Budget Player Cadet View Post
Also, just a pattern I've noticed.

Whenever people make a racial analysis of class structures, the call comes - "it's not about race, it's about class". Well, not in those words, but the appeal is always about dealing with poverty instead of race.

Then, when the discussion is about class and poverty, the same people who object to talking about race this way seem to be against any means to reduce the wealth gap.

It just feels like a distraction, is all.
I've seen that in some people. Usually because they lack empathy in general, which is how they managed to internalize racism in the first place, and why they don't care about the plight of the poor. I suspect that they cling to the argument about class because it's easier to own up to (and looks better) than "screw the coloreds," but however wrong they may be in reasoning, even a broken clock can be right twice a day.

Class is a vastly superior indicator than race for most outcomes. Addressing our system that is neigh-on perfectly designed to reinforce class distinction and punish poverty ruthlessly would do a lot to alleviate the plight of minorities. Focusing on race, however, is far less likely to produce the necessary society reforms that would benefit the most people in the most drastic ways.

This is why I am staunch opponent of fiat currencies and the cantillon effect, why I support M4A, advocate for ending private prisons, argue fiercely against fee-for-being-poor structures, oppose the war on drugs and treating drug abuse as a moral failing, advocate for getting money out of politics, advocate for vastly increased education spending, just to name a few. They're all aimed at reducing poverty. Doing so would end the economic segregation that keeps minorities concentrated in low income zones and thereby isolated from wealthier populations. The most effective cure to racism is exposure. It's easy to demonize "that thing that I only see on COPS doing bad stuff" and much harder to demonize "My neighbor who invites me to barbeques." It's also harder to sustain systemic racism when you give the economic power to everyone rather than concentrate it in one particular population's hands.
  #63  
Old 08-14-2019, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Springtime for Spacers View Post
I just used this nifty tool called Google and came up with this. You might try it some time.



It appears to be a big book.
Wow, that is alot. I might get it.
  #64  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Guinastasia View Post
Well, at the very least, wouldn't you say it's something of a US-centric view? I think you could probably say it's one of the greatest speeches given in AMERICAN history. But I definitely feel that someone from another country might disagree at the notion that it's the greatest speech in the WORLD.
I'd be interested in alternative suggestions. My previous thread on the subject.
  #65  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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And rereading that thread, I'd misremembered it: I thought folks from other nations had a lot more awareness of the speech than they did. My apologies for misrepresenting it. Still and all, I'm not sure there's a more famous speech out there.
  #66  
Old 08-14-2019, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
And rereading that thread, I'd misremembered it: I thought folks from other nations had a lot more awareness of the speech than they did. My apologies for misrepresenting it. Still and all, I'm not sure there's a more famous speech out there.
Are you just looking for political speech? I'd suspect "To be or not to be" would be more widely recognized.
  #67  
Old 08-14-2019, 02:03 PM
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Are you just looking for political speech? I'd suspect "To be or not to be" would be more widely recognized.
Yeah, I was definitely not including oratory from drama; otherwise Shakespeare takes it in a walk . More thinking about things people said in public that are their own words, and that the event of the speech is part of what's known.
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Old 08-14-2019, 02:22 PM
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As opposed to black people, where the number is... *checks notes* 13%.

And the figure that study found for white people was 41%.
The differences that they found between black and white families were stark. “Among college-educated black families, about 13 percent get an inheritance of more than $10,000, as opposed to about 41 percent of white, college-educated families,” Taylor said in a release announcing the new research. More specifically, white families that receive such an inheritance receive, on average, more than $150,000 from the previous generation, whereas that figure is less than $40,000 for black families.
The article goes into detail the many ways that these generational wealth transfers make a huge difference. The scope of the study is different (it deals specifically with wealth in families where someone went to college), but in a way this study is considerably more telling, given that "people who went to college" tend to have significantly more impact on society than those who don't - or does your company's CEO not have a degree?



Y'know, I'm no expert on the discrimination faced by Indian immigrants or the effects it has on their wealth. Would you like to go over some of the studies looking into it?
You are now making different claims.
My claim: 75% of whites receive no inheritance, this means that inheritance makes no difference in the lives of most white people. So it is wrong to say that white people have been acquiring wealth for 300 years.
The fact that Indian Americans are the richest ethnic group despite most being in the country less than 30 years shows that time in the country is not what causes an ethnic group to accumulate wealth. What causes wealth accumulation is current high income and high savings, not history.

Last edited by puddleglum; 08-14-2019 at 02:22 PM.
  #69  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
The fact that Indian Americans are the richest ethnic group despite most being in the country less than 30 years shows that time in the country is not what causes an ethnic group to accumulate wealth. What causes wealth accumulation is current high income and high savings, not history.
I would add onto that, pushing their kids to go to college and get high paying careers.
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Old 08-14-2019, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
You are now making different claims.
My claim: 75% of whites receive no inheritance, this means that inheritance makes no difference in the lives of most white people. So it is wrong to say that white people have been acquiring wealth for 300 years.
The fact that Indian Americans are the richest ethnic group despite most being in the country less than 30 years shows that time in the country is not what causes an ethnic group to accumulate wealth. What causes wealth accumulation is current high income and high savings, not history.
The Millionaire Next Door cites some interesting figures about wealth accumulation. I don't have the exact figures, but it puts self-made millionaires at about 80% if memory serves of all millionaires as of the time of the study therein. The idea that most wealth is an ancient accumulation passed down to a select few is off by quite a considerable amount. There are wealthy inheritors, but they don't make up a significant portion of the wealthy. Not remotely. Most wealth in the US is self generated.

That is not to dismiss the historical effects of racist policies against minorities though. If you're born poor, odds are you stay poor. There isn't nearly as much class mobility as people think there is (in fact, moving up in class is significantly less common than moving down). Because generations ago there was an obvious race-based disparity, and because the poor stay poor, the lions-share of every minority generation thereafter has stayed poor. But that's also true of poor whites. The racist history of the US created the initial poverty within minority groups, and the US economic system perpetuated it to this day.

That's also not to dismiss the relatively unmentioned set of policies such as the ongoing drug war that was instituted specifically to punish poor minorities and continues to do so today. There's definitely racism that specifically makes minorities poor today. Depriving any family of stability by stripping away a primary income earner, parent, and partner is a huge push towards poverty. That needs to stop immediately. We need to stop doing our darndest to punish the poor and especially poor minorities, which includes throwing a bunch of potential fathers and partners in prison... but minorities from families that don't come up in poverty and in the neighborhoods where poverty is entrenched are far more resilient against the factors that lead to incarceration. Fixing poverty takes the teeth out of racist policies and directly aids families across the board. It also unifies people instead of allowing for the divide and conquer tactics that have so effectively crushed any and all attempts to address the problems of today.
  #71  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
Yeah, I was definitely not including oratory from drama; otherwise Shakespeare takes it in a walk . More thinking about things people said in public that are their own words, and that the event of the speech is part of what's known.
Maybe Churchill's "Fight them on the beaches" speech, then? I can see people outside the US seeing MLK as addressing a specifically American problem, whereas fighting Nazis was everybody's problem.
  #72  
Old 08-14-2019, 03:59 PM
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Maybe Churchill's "Fight them on the beaches" speech, then?
This and IHaD are my personal favorite two speeches, not for their content but just for their poetry and delivery.
  #73  
Old 08-14-2019, 04:55 PM
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I obviously think this is an interesting question, but it's kind of a hijack from the main point of this thread. Maybe we should continue discussion of it in the previous thread, even though it's a second grader by now?
  #74  
Old 08-14-2019, 05:16 PM
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Trump's most recent incoherent rambling about trucks and how he knew as a child that he'd be president has to be up there. Maybe not the up to the Churchill one (Never surrender!), but right there with "Ask not what your country can do for you." Just wait and see. Only time will tell.
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