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  #51  
Old 01-24-2019, 07:57 AM
dtilque dtilque is offline
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Originally Posted by septimus View Post
In refutation of B&K, the jstor article mentions that 69% of Dani informants focused white-warm mola at Red.
Not sure that's a significant refutation of B&K, but that's beyond the scope of this thread. B&K was unpopular among certain sectors of the linguistic world because it violated Sapir-Whorf. Of course, not everyone liked S-W, so it was popular in other sectors.
  #52  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
The original Rainbow flag actually had 8 colors (pink and cyan/turquoise) were the additional two colors.
I know -- which is why I qualified my original citation of it. But the rainbow flag I link to is the current officially used one and the most common. The original Rainbow Flag uses two colors that break up its resemblance to a proper spectrum; the current one has six colors and looks more like what people expect to see in a rainbow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbo...(LGBT_movement)
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  #53  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
If you look at the wikipedia article posted on indigo above, there is
chart from Newton
that does show that each color band was not exactly the same size.

For me, when I look at a spectrum, there just seems to be a blindingly obvious stripe of light blue that seems like it should get a name.
My initial reaction is that the "blindingly obvious" light blue stripe is really an artifact of the way your monitor renders colors (and, of course, would render pictures of rainbows the same way). But, upon studying some actual spectra here at my desk (I've got a set of diffraction grating glasses that make me look like a dork when I put them on, but give me instant rainbows), I'm not so sure. That region of blue between green and violet can contain what looks like a lighter stripe of blue.

It was correctly stated above that the colors are not of equal width, whether this is the way they're seen if plotted on a scale linear in wavelength, or the way the spectrum actually appears when generated by a prism or a raindrop. Yellow is definitely much narrower in extent than, say, red or blue, which take up huge areas. We clearly did not decide upon colors by trying to segregate the spectrum into regions of equal size. But Yellow is, despite its narrowness, so qualitatively different from what surrounds it, and so strikingly obvious that any scheme that rejected "Yellow" as a color would never be accepted and used.

By the way, as I observed above, not all rainbows look the same -- the presence or absence of colors, and their relative widths, depends upon the sizes of the raindrops 9and, knowing the appearance, you can tell what size the drops are). And the appearances of the rainbow spectra are different from the appearance of a spectrum made by a prism, and what comes out of a glass prism is different from that produced by a salt prism, which is different from what is created by a diffraction grating,.... etc and etc. and so on. The relative widths of different spectral regions really does critically depend upon the dispersion of the medium or the number of diffraction lines and the geometry of the situation.
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  #54  
Old 01-24-2019, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
I told you the procedure in my earlier post. Why do you think it's a "stretch" to "squeeze" an octave in there? You can divide any length by seven or eight.
You certainly can, but that does not mean you can play an entire octave between adjacent C and D on a guitar string. Taking [from Wikipedia] the extreme bounds 380-740 nm on the visible spectrum, they nearly make an octave, just a quarter-tone or so short.

From Newton's description of his procedure and your own description of it, I gather that he projected a spectrum onto the wall through a prism, then asked his friend to delineate both the seven bands and the center of each band, having named the seven colors beforehand. (Also, he only tested one friend?)
  #55  
Old 01-24-2019, 04:47 PM
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I told you the procedure in my earlier post. Why do you think it's a "stretch" to "squeeze" an octave in there? You can divide any length by seven or eight.
You certainly can, but that does not mean you can play an entire octave between adjacent C and D on a guitar string. Taking [from Wikipedia] the extreme bounds 380-740 nm on the visible spectrum, they nearly make an octave, just a quarter-tone or so short.

From Newton's description of his procedure and your own description of it, I gather that he projected a spectrum onto the wall through a prism, then asked his friend to delineate both the seven bands and the center of each band, having named the seven colors beforehand, including Orange and Indigo. (Also, he only tested one friend?) He concluded that the boundaries between bands "about" divided the interval into certain proportions: 2/9, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3, 4/5, and 7/8 of the length, starting from the violet end, confirming to himself the musical analogy. Do I have all that right?
  #56  
Old 01-24-2019, 07:54 PM
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This is all wildly over complicating the question.

Why are rainbows seven colors instead if three primary colors?

Because the three blend , so we get to see secondary colors in rainbows. It's that simple.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-24-2019 at 07:54 PM.
  #57  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:25 PM
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Hah! I was right.
  #58  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:25 PM
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Rainbows aren't seven colors or three colors; they're an infinite number of colors. And those infinite number of colors aren't from blends of some finite number; the finite number is from the limitations of how human eyes work.
  #59  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:30 PM
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Just wanted to check in. I don;t have time right now to read everything. I will report back with my thoughts ASAP.
  #60  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
This is all wildly over complicating the question.

Why are rainbows seven colors instead if three primary colors?

Because the three blend , so we get to see secondary colors in rainbows. It's that simple.
Quick reply because your comment caught my eye: This cannot be correct. I have seen a simple demonstration at the Benjamin Franklin Institute in Philadelphia (once upon a time when this museum really cared about science). When one blends the three primary colors of light, one creates white light.

Last edited by Jinx; 01-24-2019 at 08:33 PM.
  #61  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Rainbows aren't seven colors or three colors; they're an infinite number of colors. And those infinite number of colors aren't from blends of some finite number; the finite number is from the limitations of how human eyes work.
As I said in the first 2 replies to the OP!
  #62  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by JB99 View Post
This is utterly wrong.

Light is a spectrum of electromagnetic radiation in specific wavelengths that happen to be visible to the human eye. The fact that we perceive certain colors more vibrantly is a quirk of how our eyes evolved a certain set of cone cells. There is no discrete point between one color and the next. The idea of there being only six discrete colors that mix together is just plain wrong. There are no limits to the number of colors in the world, but there are practical limits to what differences in wavelengths our eyes can detect.

The reason we talk about what my daughter calls the “M&M colors” is entirely arbitrary. Visit different cultures and you will find colors are defined differently. To directly answer OP, your teacher did in fact lie to you... In the sense that they often teach an over-simplified version to young children.



Also completely wrong.

The idea of blending colors out of three “primary” colors is useful when you are dealing with “subtractive” mediums like paint and crayons, and of course ink. Therefore, for practical and arbitrary reasons the printing industry arbitrarily decided that four colors of ink (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, and Black) were “good enough.”

The fact that Cyan, Magenta, and Yellow are not objectively THE primary colors should be self-evident for two reasons:

(1) They are NOT the colors your TV uses. Your TV uses Red, Green, and Blue light because, again, the TV manufacturers decided it was “good enough.”

(2) Magenta is NOT a real color. Magenta is a combination of two specific wavelengths hitting your eye. Magenta does not exist on the visible spectrum. If you define a primary color as ‘a color we mix to make other colors’ then Magenta fails by even that definition.
Actually the definition of a primary color is a color that can't be mixed from other colors.

Cyan and magenta displace red and blue in modern color theory with a subtractive system as primary colors for this reason.

This came from Munsell, the father of modern color theory , and came long before printing adopted it.

Here's an article explaining mixing from magenta.
https://johnmuirlaws.com/color-theory/

You'll see that red can be made from magenta and yellow.
Blue can be made from magenta and cyan.

Good luck mixing magenta from other colors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
Rainbows aren't seven colors or three colors; they're an infinite number of colors. And those infinite number of colors aren't from blends of some finite number; the finite number is from the limitations of how human eyes work.
Of course, just answering the question as it was posed. Which I thought assumed limitations of human perception and presumed 7 colors, 3 being primary. The whole concept of primary would mean every color in actual existence ( not blended in a way we perceive and define as individuals) if we weren't presuming human limitations.
  #63  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:47 PM
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Quick reply because your comment caught my eye: This cannot be correct. I have seen a simple demonstration at the Benjamin Franklin Institute in Philadelphia (once upon a time when this museum really cared about science). When one blends the three primary colors of light, one creates white light.
If you blend all at once yes.

Rainbow is the result of seperating white light
The seperating is incomplete, where it blends at the " borders". You get secondary colors.

Last edited by Littleman; 01-24-2019 at 08:47 PM.
  #64  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:48 PM
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Quick reply because your comment caught my eye: This cannot be correct. I have seen a simple demonstration at the Benjamin Franklin Institute in Philadelphia (once upon a time when this museum really cared about science). When one blends the three primary colors of light, one creates white light.
If you vary the blend, you will perceive different colors.

You could make the statement that there is always "blending" taking place in your brain, even with pure spectral colors.

One should not *over*simplify real rainbows, either; they will not look exactly like a prismatic spectrum in a darkened room.
  #65  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:54 PM
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Yes, Littleman, you answered the question as it was posed. The problem is that your answer was completely wrong.
  #66  
Old 01-24-2019, 08:58 PM
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While technically correct the infinite color comments are sort of akin to if someone asked how is an all natural cake made and we answered that it can't be...because cake is a human construct.

In this case we have to assume that individual colors exist as they are commonly experienced.
As you said it shifts from one end of the visible spectrum to the other smoothly, which we see as x amount of colors with x amount of blends.
  #67  
Old 01-24-2019, 09:02 PM
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Yes, Littleman, you answered the question as it was posed. The problem is that your answer was completely wrong.
Only if we frame it from non human perception.
  #68  
Old 01-24-2019, 09:09 PM
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While technically correct the infinite color comments are sort of akin to if someone asked how is an all natural cake made and we answered that it can't be...because cake is a human construct.

In this case we have to assume that individual colors exist as they are commonly experienced.
As you said it shifts from one end of the visible spectrum to the other smoothly, which we see as x amount of colors with x amount of blends.
Or perhaps a better example
Why does the sun rise at 6:30am tomorrow?

And we answered explaining that it doesn't rise and explained Earth's orbit and also 6:30 doesnt actually exist....we made it up.
  #69  
Old 01-24-2019, 09:31 PM
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Also the very existince of named colors is just made up.

White especially since it's the whole visible spectrum of light overlapping. It's one big blend.

When blue and yellow ( also just made up names) overlap we see green.

Rainbows don't have individual bands of one pure wavelength

They are one big blend,that doesn't overlap entirely, that we divide into named colors.

If we name colors then we get more than just the three we use to blend a perception of all others we also get some of the other named blends.
  #70  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
When blue and yellow ( also just made up names) overlap we see green.
Blue and yellow light mixed actually make white, not green.
  #71  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Blue and yellow light mixed actually make white, not green.
I'm sure you're correct. Additive color mixing is not something I can do off the top of my head but still ... It's aside from the point i was trying to make.

But thank you for the correction there.


I thought you needed the red as well for white and green was still blue and yellow just not in equal proportion?

Last edited by Littleman; 01-24-2019 at 10:14 PM.
  #72  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:20 PM
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Nevermind, RGB emphasis on the g for typical additive mixing....gotcha
Thanks

Last edited by Littleman; 01-24-2019 at 10:21 PM.
  #73  
Old 01-24-2019, 10:24 PM
pulykamell pulykamell is online now
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Originally Posted by Littleman View Post
I'm sure you're correct. Additive color mixing is not something I can do off the top of my head but still ... It's aside from the point i was trying to make.

But thank you for the correction there.


I thought you needed the red as well for white and green was still blue and yellow just not in equal proportion?
Yellow is red and green light. So you have red + green + blue if you're mixing yellow light with blue light.

The way I remember what colors RGB mixes make is to pair them up with CMY subtractive colors, with RGB corresponding to CMY as complements respectively. If you mix R&G together, you get the complement of B, which is Y. If you mix R&B together, you get the complement of G, which is magenta. Mix G and B, you get the complement of R, cyan. And R+G+B = white.

And mixing the subtractive colors works the same way. C+M = complement of Y, or B. C+Y = complement of M, or G. M +Y = complement of C, or R. And C+M+Y = black. Well, at least in theory. It's not absolutely perfect with pigments, so C+M+Y is more likely to be a very dark brown, hence one of the reasons there is also a K (black) in print.

Last edited by pulykamell; 01-24-2019 at 10:25 PM.
  #74  
Old 01-25-2019, 01:53 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Yellow is red and green light.
Except when it's yellow light

There was that Sharp television that claimed to have an RYGB display; I asked about it on these forums and was told it was totally fake (there were extra subpixels but no yellow backlight); in that case it was indeed red+green light.
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Old 01-25-2019, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Yellow is red and green light. So you have red + green + blue if you're mixing yellow light with blue light.

The way I remember what colors RGB mixes make is to pair them up with CMY subtractive colors, with RGB corresponding to CMY as complements respectively. If you mix R&G together, you get the complement of B, which is Y. If you mix R&B together, you get the complement of G, which is magenta. Mix G and B, you get the complement of R, cyan. And R+G+B = white.

And mixing the subtractive colors works the same way. C+M = complement of Y, or B. C+Y = complement of M, or G. M +Y = complement of C, or R. And C+M+Y = black. Well, at least in theory. It's not absolutely perfect with pigments, so C+M+Y is more likely to be a very dark brown, hence one of the reasons there is also a K (black) in print.
Yeah, subtractive I do constantly in my artwork. It's actually something I've written guides on.

Haven't had much use for additive.

Opaque pigments btw , mixing complementary colors gets you grey rather than black.
Transparents get you closer to black but then since the substrate is typically white and they are transparent it still gets you grey if done equal proportions by value , not volume.

Other wise they get you a desaturated version of the the color that is dominating.
  #76  
Old 01-25-2019, 07:51 AM
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Quoth Littleman:

Also the very existince of named colors is just made up.
Which implies that the statement "the rainbow contains seven colors" is wrong.
  #77  
Old 01-25-2019, 09:25 AM
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You certainly can, but that does not mean you can play an entire octave between adjacent C and D on a guitar string.
But that's not what you were talking about -- you appear to be objecting to fitting the octave into the entire human visual range, not trying to fit it into the space between , say, red and yellow


Quote:
Taking [from Wikipedia] the extreme bounds 380-740 nm on the visible spectrum, they nearly make an octave, just a quarter-tone or so short.
So it shouldn't be difficult to just about fit an octave in there, right? Possibly one of the things that persuaded Newton of the verity of his theory. Kepler accepted his theory of the spacings of the planets on even less evidence.

Quote:
From Newton's description of his procedure and your own description of it, I gather that he projected a spectrum onto the wall through a prism, then asked his friend to delineate both the seven bands and the center of each band, having named the seven colors beforehand. (Also, he only tested one friend?)
He apparently asked a lot of people, trying to get consensus for his claim of an obvious color between Blue and Violet. I still suspect him of at least metaphorical arm-twisting. Throwing a spectrum on the wall using a prism is one way, but I could see him using Newton's Rings or other color phenomena as well.
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  #78  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DPRK View Post
Except when it's yellow light
Yes, yes, yes. You know what I mean!
  #79  
Old 01-25-2019, 10:17 AM
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Haven't had much use for additive.
I work in photography, so when using Photoshop, it comes up all the time as I'm working in RGB and adjusting curves in the individual channels, so I have to think in additive, even though subtractive is what I grew up learning with crayons and paints and all that.


Quote:
Opaque pigments btw , mixing complementary colors gets you grey rather than black.
Transparents get you closer to black but then since the substrate is typically white and they are transparent it still gets you grey if done equal proportions by value , not volume.
Yes, I know, which is why I said "in theory" they should add up to black, but in practice, they don't, because of the physical characteristics of pigments, dyes, the medium to which they are applied, etc.

Last edited by pulykamell; 01-25-2019 at 10:21 AM.
  #80  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
I work in photography, so when using Photoshop, it comes up all the time as I'm working in RGB and adjusting curves in the individual channels, so I have to think in additive, even though subtractive is what I grew up learning with crayons and paints and all that.




Yes, I know, which is why I said "in theory" they should add up to black, but in practice, they don't, because of the physical characteristics of pigments, dyes, the medium to which they are applied, etc.
When I was a kid, I was once coloring in my coloring book, and I didn't have a black crayon, but there was something I wanted to color black in my coloring book. "Aha! I thought. Black's what you get when you mix equal amounts of the primary colors*". So I tried to do just that, and found out that crayons don't mix at all when you scribble them over each other. You can do that with watercolors, but crayons are wax, and you'll end up simply putting one color atop the other. if you want to mix crayon colors, you gotta melt them together. Or grind them really fine, or something.

My picture ended up as a multicolored mess.


*Well, maybe I wasn't think of those exact words, but I knew the concepts.
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Last edited by CalMeacham; 01-25-2019 at 11:16 AM.
  #81  
Old 01-25-2019, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by CalMeacham View Post
When I was a kid, I was once coloring in my coloring book, and I didn't have a black crayon, but there was something I wanted to color black in my coloring book. "Aha! I thought. Black's what you get when you mix equal amounts of the primary colors*". So I tried to do just that, and found out that crayons don't mix at all when you scribble them over each other. You can do that with watercolors, but crayons are wax, and you'll end up simply putting one color atop the other. if you want to mix crayon colors, you gotta melt them together. Or grind them really fine, or something.

My picture ended up as a multicolored mess.


*Well, maybe I wasn't think of those exact words, but I knew the concepts.
Well, even layered you'd get the point. They don't mix like paints do, but we learned about yellow and blue makes green via crayons as a kid. I just tried it right now, and it does make that effect, even though it's not so much a mix as a layering of colors. Red+yellow+blue "primary" colors makes an ugly pukey color that is somewhat brown.
  #82  
Old 01-25-2019, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
I work in photography, so when using Photoshop, it comes up all the time as I'm working in RGB and adjusting curves in the individual channels, so I have to think in additive, even though subtractive is what I grew up learning with crayons and paints and all that.




Yes, I know, which is why I said "in theory" they should add up to black, but in practice, they don't, because of the physical characteristics of pigments, dyes, the medium to which they are applied, etc.
I figured you did after all that other stuff. Just throwing it out there.

Using only two you get to the middle of the wheel but the values are too low, or high ,depending on what number system you're using to get black so ...grey.... devalued black

Using three in theory is black, and it's darn close with good paint but yeah....

Sometimes I just like to share for onlookers.
  #83  
Old 01-26-2019, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by pulykamell View Post
Kind of reminds me of the distinction in Russian between sky blue and deep blue, where they have individual words for the concept, rather than relying on an adjective to modify a base color name ("blue.")
Just like Italian, only more so: they call one blu, the other azzurro, the third one celeste.
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  #84  
Old 01-27-2019, 01:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jinx View Post
If there are just three primary colors of light, then why isn't a rainbow simply comprised of just those three colors?
It the rainbow was designed with the only purpose to look pretty to HUMAN eyes, then yes.

But as it is a simple matter of physics with light interacting with small particles of (usually) water, it has no reason to adapt to our 3-color-sensor eyes.

P.S.
Contrary to common folklore, a rainbow does not have 7 colors.
Even to mere humans with healthy eyes, the number of distinct "colors" in a rainbow varies from about 5 up to 10 distinct bands.
In reality, of course, the rainbow is a smooth continuous spread of frequencies of light, all the way from near infrared through visible light and deep into ultraviolet.
  #85  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:41 AM
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In a way, it's like trying to classify all sounds in terms of musical notes. Sounds can be any pitch and don't necessarily sort into the seven notes (plus accidentals) of Western music. Hell, even the notes don't fit perfectly; that's why they invented tempering.

Anyway, unless they work with colors professionally, Real MenTM don't recognize any colors not in a Crayon box. The eight color box.
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