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  #501  
Old Today, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Amara_ View Post
Max - put up or shut up. Where's your evidence?
My evidence for what claim? That filmore's analogy was a poor one?

Because my claim, to the extent that there is one, is something like "I find it likely that there is, perhaps very very small, between attractiveness and likelihood of being raped"? I have no concrete evidence for that claim. But no one has concrete evidence against it, either. There have been some strong arguments made that the correlation is likely very small, and I have found them persuasive. But it's nearly impossible to imagine what concrete evidence there could be without some really ridiculously comprehensive study which really settled things once and for all.

Where's YOUR evidence for the claim "there is zero correlation between level of attractiveness and likelihood of being raped"?
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  #502  
Old Today, 01:30 PM
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We don't have to prove a negative, it's up to you to prove your assertion. Put up or shut up, dude.
  #503  
Old Today, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Perhaps for those who believe rape is about the kind of sexual pleasure most people enjoy... but rape is about power and domination -- rapists don't want sex, they want to rape. Maybe some rapists target women they find attractive, but others might target women who look like someone they hate (i.e. mom, big sister, ex-wife, etc.), or a group they hate (i.e. certain race/religion), or just those they think they can get away with harming (i.e. the homeless, mentally ill, prostitutes, drug addicts).
Even if some rapists target women they find attractive, then being less attractive would lessen the chance of being a victim. The only way it would not is it there were no rapists who were motivated by attraction. Given the dearth of actual data it would seem premature to presume that there are no rapists like that.
  #504  
Old Today, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
Women start being sexually attractive at 10? Generally speaking, 10-15 year olds are more attractive than 35-40 year olds? I think it's even a stretch to assume 16-18 year olds are more attractive than 35-40 year olds. I teach high school, and by and large girls that age are more awkward than poised.

1) Presumably rapists look for all sorts of things, but the correlation between being targeted for rape and attractiveness seems tenuous at best--and you haven't presented any evidence that within the pool of "sexually attractive women", the risk of rape continues to rise in proportion as attractiveness rises.

2) Beyond that, you haven't produced any evidence that if a woman uses her clothes to move up or down a step in the relative attractiveness spectrum, she's made a difference in her chances of being victimized.

3) And finally, if we stipulated that it's true that a woman dressing herself "up" the scale is so much more danger than the woman who dresses "normal" that we have to describe dressing "up" as unwise or imprudent, then why is no one advised to dress down? To fat up? Why don't we advise women to make themselves less attractive?
An OK Cupid study found that attractiveness peaks at age 21 and only half the men are interested in dating a 35 year old woman, half those who are interested in dating an 18 year old.
  #505  
Old Today, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
Even if some rapists target women they find attractive, then being less attractive would lessen the chance of being a victim. The only way it would not is it there were no rapists who were motivated by attraction. Given the dearth of actual data it would seem premature to presume that there are no rapists like that.
It would seem premature to presume that there are no rapists who target "less attractive" women as well. After all, tons of categories of women generally considered "less attractive" are at a much higher risk of being attacked -- the homeless, mentally ill, drug addicts, etc.
  #506  
Old Today, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by SmartAleq View Post
10-34? That's not the age of attractiveness, that's the age of being too small to fight back, too inculcated with patriarchal bullshit to fight back effectively and too young to be taken seriously by the legal system while also not having the resources to mount a good legal battle. Women in their 30s get savvier and more assertive and less easy to coerce and force and a goodly number of them take self defense classes or take out carry permits so they can shoot prospective rapists dead.

Seriously, guys, with all this "attractiveness" blether you've got going on it's starting to look quite a lot like maybe you have something you want to get off your chests? Some acts of your own you'd like to have retroactively excused by some women so you can feel better about what you did to some other woman? Are you looking for absolution because YOU did something bad and you're trying to excuse it by rationalizing that "well, ANY man would have done what I did if they'd been presented with as attractive a target as I was." That's how you're coming across. Women pay attention to men who talk like that, because they're quite often trying to talk themselves out of feeling bad for what they've done--or what they intend to do. We pay attention to our guts and our feelings about creepy guys precisely because most men have "tells" of this nature--and when a rapist tells you what he is, it's best to take him at his word.

ETA: It must be so nice to be able to be pedantic and dispassionate and "just asking questions" regarding this subject. It would be wrong of me to wish that the universe would supply every man who does it with a concrete personal occurrence to make it close enough to home that they'd fucking well stop doing it.
We are in agreement that it would be wrong of you to wish rape on other people and you would be evil for doing so.
  #507  
Old Today, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Manda JO View Post
I wish you would explore WHY you find this topic interesting, and not all the other aspects of the discussion.
Good question, I will come back to it shortly

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I am happy to concede that taken as an entire package, the rape prevention protocols might lead to a reduction in the incidence of rape. However, I think there is a stark lack of evidence that it would be a significant reduction, and I think there is tremendous evidence that the myth that they do--that presenting them as viable, useful options to increase your safety--does does actual harm.

I am even happy to concede that the most radical of them--like never leaving the house alone after dark, never drinking or being in the presence of those who do, and never being alone with a man would dramatically reduce the incidence of rape--but I think that anyone who did those things would be a fool. And I think that presenting some of them--especially the ones about not being alone outside after dark, or around brown people (because let's be honest, that's part of it) or travelling--are incredibly life limiting and damaging, and are often presented as "reasonable" precautions by men who would never accept such restrictions on their own freedom.
I close-to-unreservedly agree with all of this

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I ask you what I asked filmore--ten pages of testimony, under what circumstances should women modify their dress or actions?
I have no idea. I think it's a tremendously difficult question... and one I think each woman needs to decide for herself, with "I will not modify my dress or actions at all" being a completely reasonable choice; and one that absolutely positively does not mean that women "deserves it" or "is asking for it" or anything. The only point I would even come close to holding firm on is that to the extent that there is actual factual data (which there probably rarely is), it's good to give woman that data and let them decide for themselves. If doing X reduces your risk of rape by 1%, well, women should know that. You personally might decide that X is not worth doing because of the imposition it places on your life. Another woman might decide to never do X. Another might choose to do X only on certain occasions, and only while taking other precautions. All absolutely reasonable, and none of those choices ought to be used to judge or scold before, or CERTAINLY after, the fact.


As for why I find this topic interesting, I think there are two main things that have drawn me to this thread:

(1) Initially, and this has sadly gotten lost in the shuffle, the topic that this thread was originally about, which is where you draw the line between appropriate and inappropriate advice, before and after the fact, prompted or asked for, etc., is a big and interesting and complicated one. If a friend tells me that she is going to a party in a neighborhood that I know is sketchy, should I warn her that the neighborhood is sketchy? Is it condescending to assume she doesn't already know that? But people aren't born knowing things, she might not. Should I tell her she can call me if she needs a ride home, so she doesn't have to ride home? Or is it patriarchal and/or creepy for me, a man, to even make that offer? Do any of these answers change if she's tipsy? Or flat out drunk? A complicated issue, made more complicated by the fact that the answers usually adopted by men for so long have been so truly awful.

(2) General stubbornness. Claims and arguments have spiraled, as they do on the internet, and I find it hard to let a logically poor response go by unremarked.
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  #508  
Old Today, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by puddleglum View Post
An OK Cupid study found that attractiveness peaks at age 21 and only half the men are interested in dating a 35 year old woman, half those who are interested in dating an 18 year old.
Okay, what about all those 10-16 year olds?

And, in any case, I'm going to say a lot more men like the idea of an 18 year old (with the connotations of youth and virility our society has for "guys who date 18 year olds) than actually want to you know, date an 18 year old. Hollywood prefers to cast women (and men) in their early 20s for teen roles, because women (and men) in their early 20s are more attractive.

I made 3 points addressing your claim. You didn't respond to these two:

1) This doesn't mean that as you grow more attractive, your potential to be raped grows in proportion--that's quite a leap

2) If you think women are stupid to make themselves more attractive, do you think they are also stupid not disfigure themselves more than nature intended?
  #509  
Old Today, 03:05 PM
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Try this one: imagine yourself walking down the street late at night, and you come across a half-naked and thoroughly drunk 15-17 year old, to pick the peak age from the earlier cite. They've got exactly the figure you find most sexually attractive. Nobody else is around. Consider seriously: if this happened in real life, what do you think you'd do?

Note that I'm not asking whether you'd be aroused; that's not the issue. I'm asking what you'd actually do. filmore, you too.
For the situation you present of her along the street, I would think she was attacked or injured and would get help. But instead if I consider the situation of finding her in a remote bedroom when I'm at a house party, then I'm not so sure. When I think about this, my answer of how I would react depends on my age. If I'm 16, then I'm pretty sure I'd be tempted in some way. It would be like finding a stack of money and thinking I could steal it. I'm not 100% certain what I would actually do. I'm fairly certain I wouldn't do anything, but I don't feel 100% positive about that. My moral foundation around that time was more "caught or not" versus "right or wrong". By the time I'm early 20's, I'm much more certain that I wouldn't be tempted and I'm absolutely certain I wouldn't do anything. This hypothetical the only situation I can ever imagine even remotely being tempted to do something, and that's just when I'm a teenager. By the time I'm 25 or so, I absolutely trust my moral foundation and am 100% certain I would act in a pious manner.

I can't point at anything to say why I might have been tempted at that time and why that kind of temptation went away as I got older. It's not like anyone taught me one way or the other. I can imagine that if I had a different group of friends or influences, my actions in that situation could vary widely. For some reason, I didn't feel the same moral absolute boundary around that hypothetical at 16 that I did around for things like murder or forceful rape. My moral weakness around this kind of situation is one reason I worry that other boys at that age would have the same temptations.
  #510  
Old Today, 03:15 PM
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Except possibly for logistical reasons, do you think her choice of clothes would have tilted your decision?
  #511  
Old Today, 03:32 PM
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Except possibly for logistical reasons, do you think her choice of clothes would have tilted your decision?
No, I don't think it would have any meaningful bearing on what I would do in that situation.
  #512  
Old Today, 03:42 PM
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For the umpteeth time, comparing rape to property damage (finding money) is offensive.
  #513  
Old Today, 03:50 PM
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For the umpteeth time, comparing rape to property damage (finding money) is offensive.
Yeah, I even said that upthread somewhere. My comparison wasn't meant to imply that finding her was like finding money. It was that even people with firm morals can find themselves in a situation where they may be tempted to act in an immoral way. Some other people won't even have the temptation at all in that situation.
  #514  
Old Today, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by thorny locust View Post
Try this one: imagine yourself walking down the street late at night, and you come across a half-naked and thoroughly drunk 15-17 year old, to pick the peak age from the earlier cite. They've got exactly the figure you find most sexually attractive. Nobody else is around. Consider seriously: if this happened in real life, what do you think you'd do?
I would 100% do the right thing and call the cops, and then stand by her until they got there, covering up with a jacket/sweatshirt if I had one. (I'm reading this as "she is passed out drunk" not "she is stumbling around incoherent".)

But suppose we adjust every slider that's affecting my behavior in the worst possible way:
-this happens when I'm 17, at peak horniness but far from peak impulse control
-I had just gotten harshly and publicly rejected by several women I had crushes on and was feeling aggrieved towards women in general
-I had just gotten somewhat sucked in to incel chatrooms and my mind was full of hateful misogynistic bullshit (this never happened, btw, just proposing it as part of the hypothetical)
-I was drunk


Put all of those together and I would end up in a situation where lust/rage was tugging me one way, and ethics/morality/decency was tugging me the other. And as best as I can imagine, the more attractive the unconscious woman was, the stronger the tug of lust and rage would be.


But, prior to reading this thread, that would have struck me as entirely obvious and noncontroversial. So I'm not sure where you're going.
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  #515  
Old Today, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by filmore View Post
Yeah, I even said that upthread somewhere. My comparison wasn't meant to imply that finding her was like finding money. It was that even people with firm morals can find themselves in a situation where they may be tempted to act in an immoral way. Some other people won't even have the temptation at all in that situation.
And I argue that the moral line one has to cross to commit a crime of opportunity like found money as compared to sexual violence is so different to be a useless (and hurtful) comparison.
  #516  
Old Today, 06:00 PM
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I would 100% do the right thing and call the cops, and then stand by her until they got there, covering up with a jacket/sweatshirt if I had one. (I'm reading this as "she is passed out drunk" not "she is stumbling around incoherent".)

But suppose we adjust every slider that's affecting my behavior in the worst possible way:
-this happens when I'm 17, at peak horniness but far from peak impulse control
-I had just gotten harshly and publicly rejected by several women I had crushes on and was feeling aggrieved towards women in general
-I had just gotten somewhat sucked in to incel chatrooms and my mind was full of hateful misogynistic bullshit (this never happened, btw, just proposing it as part of the hypothetical)
-I was drunk


Put all of those together and I would end up in a situation where lust/rage was tugging me one way, and ethics/morality/decency was tugging me the other. And as best as I can imagine, the more attractive the unconscious woman was, the stronger the tug of lust and rage would be.


But, prior to reading this thread, that would have struck me as entirely obvious and noncontroversial. So I'm not sure where you're going.
And there we have it, friends. Congratulations, dude, you're a rapist. As, indeed, a majority of men are because when you ask men if they'd commit rape most of them are all "Oh holy shit no way no how!" but ask them again about committing rape but don't CALL it rape and give them scenarios and stick in some "extenuating circumstances" that really only make sense to men raised in a patriarchy and you hit a threshold where the majority of men admit that yeah, they would commit rape--just don't call it that, so icky.

Now do you understand what we walk around with in the real world? The sure and certain knowledge that basically every man we know and care for has a threshold and my gods do we hope that threshold is really high--but we never know until it happens and by then it's way too late. So which of the rape rules do we follow to make sure the men around us don't hit their thresholds? How do we twist ourselves enough into pretzels and Moebius strips to control the behavior of the men we're surrounded by? IT'S NOT POSSIBLE, WE CAN'T DO THIS. Nobody can. Nobody can control everyone around them to make sure nothing bad ever happens to us. So FFS stop telling these lies to women that there are rules they can follow that will protect them from rapists because it's BULLSHIT.

And while you're at it, stop telling these comforting lies to yourself and other men that there are these extenuating circumstances that exist to let men off the hook for raping women and that there's fault to be placed on the victims who really SHOULD HAVE KNOWN how to follow the rules better so's not to create extenuating circumstances that excuse their rapists. Because that too is BULLSHIT.
  #517  
Old Today, 06:44 PM
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And there we have it, friends. Congratulations, dude, you're a rapist.
That's some serious Orwellian thoughtcrime-level bullshit.

So, to review: if I was presented with the "best" possible circumstances to commit a rape (unconscious attractive victim, no one around), I absolutely would not.

But if:
-I was 17 (I'm not)
-I was drunk (I don't drink)
-I got sucked into incel chatrooms (I never have)
-And I was angry because I had just gotten rejected (which has been true for maybe 0.01% of my life)

Then I can _imagine_ that _maybe_ I might commit a rape.



By this sort of logic, everyone is everything. We're all rapists, all of us, men and women. And we're all child pornographers. And racists. And drunk drivers. And pedophiles.

For fuck's sake.
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  #518  
Old Today, 07:09 PM
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You gave us a scenario under which you could see stepping into the rapist's shoes--access, anger, victim blaming, approval from other men. You have your mitigation all lined up--young and drunk. Funny how young and drunk excuses men but indicts women, strange how that works out innit? What you're saying is that this concatenation of factors hasn't happened for you. But it could--and the only thing that would stop you becoming a rapist for real would be your own volition.

Women exist in a perpetual state of being a rape victim whose concatenation hasn't coalesced yet. This is our reality, the environment we operate under 24/7 for our entire lives. When the factors coalesce, the only thing that stops us from becoming rape victims is the volition of the rapist. We don't have the agency, that belongs to someone else.

And see how these things work? There you are just JAQing along being all dispassionate and detached and postulating circumstances and making your points when suddenly someone else makes you into something you don't want against your will by telling you YOU'RE a rapist. Does that make you uncomfortable? Does it suck to be forced into a fundamental change against your will? Welcome to the reality of being a rape victim who hasn't yet found the spot marked X with her name on it.

Don't like it? Then work to make the world a place where it's unthinkable for rapes to occur. Until that happens, you're culpable too. If you can imagine a scenario under which you'd commit rape then yeah, you're a rapist. Just like I'm a rape victim. I didn't ask for that, but it wasn't my choice. Sucks, don't it?
  #519  
Old Today, 07:21 PM
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MaxTheVool, do you see how it makes a lot more sense to identify the risk factors for rapists than the risk factors of rape victims?


Do you understand why we're saying it doesn't make sense to give more advice to young women than young men with respect to rape? If you had a son who was exhibiting the risk factors you laid out, wouldn't you be talking to him a whole lot more than your daughter--regardless of her risk profile?

I think your answer to this question could help folks see exactly how much you've absorbed for this conversation.

By the way, I appreciate your candor.
  #520  
Old Today, 07:32 PM
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MaxTheVool, do you see how it makes a lot more sense to identify the risk factors for rapists than the risk factors of rape victims?
Absolutely... but why is it one or the other?

We should definitely positively do everything we can to keep young men from growing up to be rapists (short of ludicrous extremes like chemically castrating them all).

But that has no bearing on the question of what advice we should give to young women to help protect them without interfering with their ability to lead full lives. How to equip them to deal with the sexism in society without implicitly normalizing and accepting that sexism. How best to do that is a difficult and thorny question.

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I think your answer to this question could help folks see exactly how much you've absorbed for this conversation.
Well, if you'll go look at my first post in this thread, #32, you'll see I'm saying basically the same thing there as I am here. Whether that means I have learned literally nothing, or that I've done a comically poor job of communicating my position, is unclear.

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By the way, I appreciate your candor.
Thanks.
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  #521  
Old Today, 07:36 PM
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Why is it one or the other? How about because we have hundreds of years of stupid rules and advice to women and it hasn't stopped rape or even slowed it down. Insanity is continually repeating an experiment with the same parameters and expecting a different result. So what say we stop doing the thing we KNOW doesn't work and try something else, like trying to train young men not to rape? That work for everyone?
  #522  
Old Today, 07:44 PM
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You have your mitigation all lined up--young and drunk.
Bullshit. Nothing I said suggests that those factors would make me any less guilty or culpable or responsible, legally or ethically, if that confluence of circumstances had occurred and I had committed a rape.
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  #523  
Old Today, 07:48 PM
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Why is it one or the other? How about because we have hundreds of years of stupid rules and advice to women and it hasn't stopped rape or even slowed it down.
Quoting wikipedia, bolding mine:

Over the last four decades, rape has been declining. According to the National Crime Victimization Survey, the adjusted annual per-capita victimization rate of rape has declined from about 2.4 per 1000 people (age 12 and above) in 1980 (that is, 2.4 persons from each 1000 people 12 and older were raped in 1980) to about 0.4 per 1000 people in 2003, a decline of about 85%. There are several possible explanations for this, including stricter laws and education on security for women.
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  #524  
Old Today, 07:58 PM
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Wanna buy a bridge? I have a couple of nice ones, cheap.
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