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  #2201  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
Is it true that the letter from Trump's lawyers ended with the words "Now go home and get your fucking shine box?"
They'd better hope not. The scene continued after that line.

Last edited by bobot; 10-08-2019 at 05:35 PM.
  #2202  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:50 PM
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They'd better hope not. The scene continued after that line.
I know, that's the best part!
  #2203  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:52 PM
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*wink wink, nudge nudge*
  #2204  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Max S. View Post
I don't think that's going to happen. Removal under the 25th Amendment is more difficult than removal under the Article I impeachment process. The 25th Amendment requires both a majority of the Vice President and cabinet/other-body-provided-by-law and a "two-thirds vote of both Houses" (U.S. Const. art. XXV, § 4). Impeachment only requires a majority in the House of Representatives and "the Concurrence of two thirds of the Members present" in the Senate.

~Max
I didn't say I thought it would be easier. I said that, if it became politically expedient to remove him, I think they might opt for the 25th Amendment rather than going along with impeachment. My reasons were in the post. They did not have anything to do with it somehow being easier than impeachment.

Last edited by eschrodinger; 10-08-2019 at 05:59 PM.
  #2205  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:08 PM
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It should not be necessary to consider how to protect a whistleblower from Congress critters!

(Paywall)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...d44_story.html


Quote:
House Democrats are weighing extraordinary steps to secure testimony from a whistleblower whose complaint prompted their impeachment inquiry, masking his identity to prevent President Trump’s congressional allies from exposing the individual, according to three officials familiar with the deliberations.
  #2206  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:10 PM
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Our Democracy is a game who's rules are laid out in the Constitution. Our form of government only works if everybody agrees to play by the rules.

We do have a Constitutional crisis. The Executive branch has abandoned the rules. The normal (Constitutional) processes to remedy the situation will not work because the executive does not recognize them. Trump controls the DOJ so he doesn't care what the Supreme Court does. The Republican Party appears willing to accept anything Trump does in order to stay in power. The Dems would be well advised to post a nightly fire watch in their chambers.

A government shut down may be the only remedy ( unless the Republicans turn against Trump).

Last edited by Crane; 10-08-2019 at 06:13 PM.
  #2207  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:28 PM
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Justice Department lawyers used the example of Richard Nixon’s impeachment inquiry to argue that the House Judiciary Committee should be denied its request to obtain information about grand jury materials assembled under special counsel Robert Mueller’s probe of President Donald Trump.
Lawyers from the Justice Department surprised the judge, Beryl Howard, by arguing that the decision to release normally secret grand jury materials to the House in 1974, when Nixon faced impeachment, was incorrect.
The House is currently conducting an impeachment inquiry into Trump.
LINK.

Real quote from the judge involved: "wow."
  #2208  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:59 PM
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...
A government shut down may be the only remedy ( unless the Republicans turn against Trump).
What kind of remedy is this? What does this correct? What does it accomplish?
  #2209  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:14 PM
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A government shut down may be the only remedy ( unless the Republicans turn against Trump).
They won't turn against Trump.

Some of them may already be compromised to the point that they know that the end game for them is jail time if they turn on Trump.

Others are spineless cowards.

And others are hoping that in the future dictatorship, they will hold positions of extreme power that others can only dream of.

There may also be a couple of True Believers among them. But only a few.
  #2210  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:24 PM
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They'll send them a sternly worded email and that will be the end of it.

Republicans are saying "fuck you" to the norms and to the legal processes. And getting away with it. So why would they not continue?
They've said "fuck you" to the norms but not really the legal processes. Yes, they are delaying things in the courts, but if the WH starts violating court orders then Pelosi will start jailing people. Trump can get away with defying Democrats, but he won't get away with defying both Democrats and the judicial for too long.
  #2211  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:29 PM
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Yes, they are delaying things in the courts, but if the WH starts violating court orders then Pelosi will start jailing people.
And how exactly will she do that when Barr is fully in on it, and the US Dept. of Justice will do nothing?

Will she just march in herself with handcuffs and start jailing people? I fully expect that if Congress tries to do anything to enforce a subpoena, the DOJ or the Army will have Pelosi herself behind bars.
  #2212  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:31 PM
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Public opinion is turning against Trump, most notably with independents. That's the most powerful weapon we've got right now.
  #2213  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:39 PM
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Trump is now going Full Nixon, and not cooperating with the legal investigation. He will be shredding, destroying any evidence he (or his minions) can find. This is how he has always rolled for his entire life. This is familiar territory for him.

His loyal Republican lapdogs will go on the offensive, attacking anyone who gets in their way.

Some differences with Nixon:
Trump has a loyal member heading the DOJ, so that is not a problem for him.
Trump has an entire network willing to lie and do anything for him.
Trump has the majority of Senators who no longer have the independence nor the integrity of those in Nixon's time.
Trump has loyalists in the Supreme court that he put there himself.

I expect that Trump will never cooperate, and will never suffer any consequences.
  #2214  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Trump is now going Full Nixon, and not cooperating with the legal investigation. He will be shredding, destroying any evidence he (or his minions) can find. This is how he has always rolled for his entire life. This is familiar territory for him.

His loyal Republican lapdogs will go on the offensive, attacking anyone who gets in their way.

Some differences with Nixon:
Trump has a loyal member heading the DOJ, so that is not a problem for him.
Trump has an entire network willing to lie and do anything for him.
Trump has the majority of Senators who no longer have the independence nor the integrity of those in Nixon's time.
Trump has loyalists in the Supreme court that he put there himself.

I expect that Trump will never cooperate, and will never suffer any consequences.
Somehow, that server that Trumps phone conversations with foreign governments have been move to needs to be saved. Unfortunately, I doubt that can be done.
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  #2215  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:07 PM
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The White House sent a letter to Pelosi, Schiff, Engel, and Cummings. You should read it.
  #2216  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:10 PM
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“Due process,” huh? As in the legal world where subpoenas have teeth? Sure, let’s go there.
  #2217  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:15 PM
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The ONLY reason Trump is stonewalling is because he has something to hide. And probably a lot.

It's not because Trump et al are worried about the precedent or the principle. They have neither.
  #2218  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:24 PM
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It proves that Lincoln’s maxim about fooling some of the people all of the time can be proven true for the shrinking party of Trump.

Last edited by Ravenman; 10-08-2019 at 08:24 PM.
  #2219  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:29 PM
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I'm three pages in, and it's such a crock of shit already. Does it get better?

1) The WH presumes to tell the House how to follow its own rules. That's not actually their business. If the House has determined that it's an impeachment inquiry, there's no constitutional method by which the WH can gainsay that. To suggest otherwise is to trample on separation of powers.
2) The quote about fearing Trump's re-election is 100% irrelevant.
3) Schiff's paraphrase was obviously a paraphrase, and everyone--EVERYONE--knows that. This is a ridiculous point to harp on.
4) Trump's claim that he "has no choice" but to refuse to cooperate is too silly to dignify with a response.
5) The idea that the inquiry phase requires the right to confront witnesses is similarly idiotic, and everyone knows that. It's like suggesting that you don't need to let the police into your house, despite their warrant, unless they tell you who tipped them off. Your right to confront witnesses happens at your trial, not during the investigation; and it's confined only to those witnesses whose evidence is a direct part of the trial.

That's as far as I got. Three pages in, and nearly every point is a lie or a pitiful twist of the truth. Is there any page that's not full of lies? Direct me to that one, and I'll read it, but I'll hold you accountable for any claim that it's an honest page.
  #2220  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:31 PM
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Three pages in??? So it's not a tweet? OK, who wrote that!
  #2221  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:33 PM
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The ONLY reason Trump is stonewalling is because he has something to hide. And probably a lot.

It's not because Trump et al are worried about the precedent or the principle. They have neither.
His 'stonewall' will be the only one that gets built. This one is made of lies, redirection and strawmen.
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  #2222  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:36 PM
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If Trump played poker, he'd turn up 5 aces and say "beat that".
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  #2223  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
And if they defy the Supreme Court, what then? Who is going to make Trump follow the Supreme Court orders? I expect Trump would just make up some insulting nicknames for the members of the court and tweet about how they should be impeached.

Is Ginsberg going to personally go to the Whitehouse and kick Trump in the nards?
If she does, they should put it on pay-per-view. The proceeds could retire the national debt.





Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
The ONLY reason Trump is stonewalling is because he has something to hide. And probably a lot.
That's the dangerous thing about this WH tactic---even low-information Americans react this way. 'If he's stonewalling, he must have something to hide.' It's fundamental human psychology.

Having a corrupt Attorney General and a packed Supreme Court in his pocket won't save Trump if the "hold an impeachment trial" poll numbers get up into the sixty-percent range. Because that's the point at which GOP Senators are going to start to get nervous about saving their own hides.
  #2224  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:45 PM
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If Trump played poker, he'd turn up 5 aces and say "beat that".
And by five aces, you mean five cards with the letter A written in the corner with a sharpie.
  #2225  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Left Hand of Dorkness View Post
I'm three pages in, and it's such a crock of shit already. Does it get better?

1) The WH presumes to tell the House how to follow its own rules. That's not actually their business. If the House has determined that it's an impeachment inquiry, there's no constitutional method by which the WH can gainsay that. To suggest otherwise is to trample on separation of powers.
2) The quote about fearing Trump's re-election is 100% irrelevant.
3) Schiff's paraphrase was obviously a paraphrase, and everyone--EVERYONE--knows that. This is a ridiculous point to harp on.
4) Trump's claim that he "has no choice" but to refuse to cooperate is too silly to dignify with a response.
5) The idea that the inquiry phase requires the right to confront witnesses is similarly idiotic, and everyone knows that. It's like suggesting that you don't need to let the police into your house, despite their warrant, unless they tell you who tipped them off. Your right to confront witnesses happens at your trial, not during the investigation; and it's confined only to those witnesses whose evidence is a direct part of the trial.

That's as far as I got. Three pages in, and nearly every point is a lie or a pitiful twist of the truth. Is there any page that's not full of lies? Direct me to that one, and I'll read it, but I'll hold you accountable for any claim that it's an honest page.
What Left Hand of Dorkness said, and among many dumb things there, the message I also got is that Trump made one basic shortcoming to be official: Trump just can't walk and chew gum at the same time, he has no business being president.

Last edited by GIGObuster; 10-08-2019 at 08:47 PM.
  #2226  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:49 PM
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Remember when Republicans LOST THEIR FUCKING MINDS about Obama exerting executive privilege on one issue, not related to impeachment proceedings?

That was so cute.
  #2227  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:53 PM
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Remember when Republicans LOST THEIR FUCKING MINDS about Obama exerting executive privilege on one issue, not related to impeachment proceedings?

That was so cute.
Ya, well Obama did that in an .... uppity... manner. <wink>
  #2228  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:57 PM
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Are we supposed to be doing anything besides laughing after reading it?
  #2229  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:24 PM
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Trump is now going Full Nixon, and not cooperating with the legal investigation. He will be shredding, destroying any evidence he (or his minions) can find. This is how he has always rolled for his entire life. This is familiar territory for him.

His loyal Republican lapdogs will go on the offensive, attacking anyone who gets in their way.

Some differences with Nixon:
....
Trump has loyalists in the Supreme court that he put there himself.
Nixon had 4 appointees on the Court. Of course, that was when the court wasn’t as blatantly partisan as it is now.
  #2230  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:34 PM
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Yes that is funny. Thanks for sharing!

Seriously though ... Graham was right and more broadly the cover-up is what did Nixon in. Trump covers up with more public bluster but it digs his hole deeper. The House won't allow this clumsy blustery cover up to slow walk it and will impeach based on obstruction and presumption of covered up materials, along with the evidence already available.

Public opinion? The 538 tracker on this is of note. The Senate doesn't care much that Democratic support for impeachment has jumped (a little as it may impact turnout but not much). But GOP support has crept up marginally - from under 10 to over 14% - and independent support has real momentum, going from 34 to 44%. It won't take more of this sort of covering it up to move them into the over 50% group, and that is where more GOP elected critters will experience tipping points. Not helped by his party being pissed at his throwing the Kurds under the bus, or tank treads more accurately, and a broad growing nervousness about the economy and the market.
  #2231  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:57 PM
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Three pages in??? So it's not a tweet? OK, who wrote that!
It starts out with "I write on behalf of President Donald J. Trump..."
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  #2232  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:06 PM
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Thanks. I didn't get that far in. Truth be told, I didn't click the fucking link.
  #2233  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:12 PM
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The ONLY reason Trump is stonewalling is because he has something to hide. And probably a lot.

It's not because Trump et al are worried about the precedent or the principle. They have neither.
Not a safe assumption. Trump survives by exceeding the statute of limitations and he has infinite funds to keep his lawyers going appealing every inane thing and, because he's the President, the courts have to take it seriously and spend time on it.

Trials can take years. 1 year here, 2 years there, and it all adds up. A lot of criminal statutes go blank after 5 years.

While an imbecile 99% of the time, the man is a genius in the remaining 1% as regards taking advantage of trust and any inkling of fair play in society. There is no limit to his pettiness if it allows him to walk.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 10-08-2019 at 10:15 PM.
  #2234  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:15 PM
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Interesting...

"Just sent @SecPompeo a letter flagging that the Feb 2019 spending bill prohibits pay to federal officials who prevent other officials from communicating with Congress.

We refuse to bankroll this administration while they hold witnesses hostage. Sondland must testify on Ukraine."

https://t.co/2q9qyFANRv

From WI Rep Mark Pocan. Apparently the 2019 spending bill contained provisions which halt the pay of any government official who prohibits other government officials from speaking to Congress.
  #2235  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:18 PM
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Thanks. I didn't get that far in. Truth be told, I didn't click the fucking link.
No worries. I could tell it was garbage halfway through the first paragraph.
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  #2236  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:50 PM
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No worries. I could tell it was garbage halfway through the first paragraph.
Cipollone is always a fun read.
  #2237  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:57 PM
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Seems to be a "then pound on the table" response.
  #2238  
Old 10-08-2019, 11:01 PM
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Seems to be a "then pound on the table" response.
"I didn't get a 'harrumph' from that guy!"
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  #2239  
Old 10-09-2019, 12:32 AM
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And how exactly will she do that when Barr is fully in on it, and the US Dept. of Justice will do nothing?

Will she just march in herself with handcuffs and start jailing people? I fully expect that if Congress tries to do anything to enforce a subpoena, the DOJ or the Army will have Pelosi herself behind bars.
That's what the Sergeant at Arms is for. It's been done at least three times already. Once in 1935 - can't remember what for, and once in 1927 for Teapot Dome.
  #2240  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:41 AM
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How come this scandal doesn't have a catchy name yet?

Can we pin Stupid Watergate down?
  #2241  
Old 10-09-2019, 01:47 AM
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And by five aces, you mean five cards with the letter A written in the corner with a sharpie.
Brilliant.
  #2242  
Old 10-09-2019, 02:38 AM
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What lies between "what can be done" and "what will be done" is a gap so wide Evel Knievel himself would shake his head, say "Oh, hell no!" and walk away.

Last edited by Czarcasm; 10-09-2019 at 02:39 AM.
  #2243  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:12 AM
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Try to understand this: If it doesn't take away his money or effect him physically he just doesn't give a flying fuck. File that lawsuit-he won't show up and you can't make him. Demand to see documents-he won't hand them over and you can't make him. Demand his cronies appear-he won't let them and you can't force them.
I mentioned some weeks ago that he has to show up in the Capitol to give next year’s SOTU. If the Sergeant at Arms shows up loaded for bear, he can probably bring a posse who can get the drop on the SS, and cart the America-hating fuckstick off to what passes for mall jail in the Capitol.

Yeah, it means a several-month delay, but it would be worth it.
  #2244  
Old 10-09-2019, 04:43 AM
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They can use D.C. jails if local authorities permit it. Not part of DOJ. Barr carries no more weight there than you or I do.

Err, or so I've heard. IANAL.

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  #2245  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:19 AM
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I haven’t read the whole (45 page!) thread but why is Pelosi so afraid of giving Republicans subpoena power? AIUI, that’s one of the main reasons that she’s not bringing the inquiry up for a vote.
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  #2246  
Old 10-09-2019, 06:40 AM
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Schiff has issued a sternly worded tweet about today's obstruction.
https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/st...ews|twgr^tweet

https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/st...148353/video/1
OK man, so what are you going to DO about it??
See that the trap springs not
'Til the greedy varmint gorges
On raw bait in the kill zone

Muster all your patience
For there will not be
A second chance

.

Last edited by I Love Me, Vol. I; 10-09-2019 at 06:42 AM.
  #2247  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:13 AM
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Hey, that's good!
  #2248  
Old 10-09-2019, 07:48 AM
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The White House seems to be under the impression (or more likely they're pretending they're under the impression) that the House impeachment inquiry is a "trial". This is factually false, quite obviously.

It's telling that the lies their spewing are now so incredibly obvious. It means they've got nothing else -- not even "good" lies. But we'll see how this affects the polling, and ultimately Republican votes in the Senate, which is what matters.
  #2249  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:16 AM
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Remember when Republicans LOST THEIR FUCKING MINDS about Obama exerting executive privilege on one issue, not related to impeachment proceedings?

That was so cute.
Remember when Republicans got mad that Al Gore used a telephone in the White House to call possible campaign donors?
  #2250  
Old 10-09-2019, 08:26 AM
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Remember when Republicans got mad that Al Gore used a telephone in the White House to call possible campaign donors?
Or when some Chinese gave a bunch of illegal campaign donations that were rejected, and Republicans held two years of hearings about it?
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