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  #4801  
Old 11-15-2019, 10:01 PM
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I disagree. I believe at this moment that Schiff is engaging in political theater without real evidence
lol

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  #4802  
Old 11-15-2019, 10:15 PM
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I disagree. I believe at this moment that Schiff is engaging in political theater without real evidence, and that it is a continuation of trying to throw anything and everything at the President until something hopefully sticks. And if Schiff lied about anything to do with the inquiry, then I believe it calls into question his entire proceeding even more.
Schiff is engaging in political theater. That's what he does for a living.

The people who are under oath are under oath and, if they perjure themselves, then well...Roger Stone. If they say bad things against the President, then they lose their livelihood. This is not scripted TV and the people answering the questions are just regular people who would prefer to be at work, living a quiet, making the world a better place. Instead, they're destroying their life either way they go and trying to be lawful citizens and faithful employees.

If your argument require time travel or mind control then your argument is wrong.

Schiff can be every bit as scummy as you desire but he does not have the magical power of mind control.

They say the things they say because it's a crime for them to lie and going to jail is worse than being fired.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-15-2019 at 10:20 PM.
  #4803  
Old 11-16-2019, 03:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
Ok, others have noticed this:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-roger-stoned/

And I see two more possible lies reported on the same website:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...staffer-video/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...secutor-video/

The Democrats made a big mistake promoting her from the secret to the public hearing.
  #4804  
Old 11-16-2019, 04:11 AM
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Your source is The Gateway Pundit?
This Gateway Pundit?
Seems like they "notice" a lot of things that are untrue.
  #4805  
Old 11-16-2019, 05:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
Ok, others have noticed this:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-roger-stoned/

And I see two more possible lies reported on the same website:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...staffer-video/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...secutor-video/

The Democrats made a big mistake promoting her from the secret to the public hearing.
@ Jim Peebles — Supposing that we stipulate that the charges against Ms. Yovanovitch are true, how would you compare her perjuries with the crimes that Donald Trump is charged with?
  #4806  
Old 11-16-2019, 07:31 AM
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but I do think there could be some softening of Trump's support as that part of the public paying attention sees the weakness of Trump's position. The arguments excusing his conduct are poor, and those wielding the arguments are not coming off well.
I can't really disagree with this, and his support has actually been softening for a while. By that I mean that probably 10-15% of those who support him do so mainly because they are optimistic about the country as a whole in spite of Trump. I think a fair percentage of Trump voters don't really like Trump's personality or style, and some might have grave reservations about it all. But at their core, they don't trust democrats and they are suspicious of people with progressive values. This is how politicians exploit culture wars, which is Trump's ace card.

But if suddenly people begin to feel that the situation itself is going down the tubes. If they, for instance, they see the entire economy go into reverse, then that's a game changer. The president gets the blame if Americans are miserable, fearful, or pessimistic about their futures. Most likely, these 10-15% of Trumpers wouldn't vote Dem, but they might just vote for William Weld or stay home, which is probably the best we can hope for.
  #4807  
Old 11-16-2019, 07:33 AM
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@ Jim Peebles — Supposing that we stipulate that the charges against Ms. Yovanovitch are true, how would you compare her perjuries with the crimes that Donald Trump is charged with?
Jesus Christ the JAQing in this thread. It doesn't matter how he thinks she compares to Trump. It's a matter of witness credibility. Which has already been addressed some posts back. You're perfectly capable of making your own argument instead of asking other people to make it for you.

Last edited by Ruken; 11-16-2019 at 07:35 AM.
  #4808  
Old 11-16-2019, 08:03 AM
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Your source is The Gateway Pundit?
This Gateway Pundit?
Seems like they "notice" a lot of things that are untrue.
See our earlier conversation on how criminals and psychopaths think everyone is criminal and psychopathic. The Gateway Pundit is just a bunch of liars who assume everyone else are liars.
  #4809  
Old 11-16-2019, 08:24 AM
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My bold.

This is important and has been lost sight of in this discussion. This is what the soon-to-be Former President said:
"She started off in Somalia. How did that go?"

He's not saying she's bad at her job. He's implying that she was instrumental in causing the crisis in Somalia. That she causes bad things to happen in a country. Of course, he doesn't come right out and say it, because his lack of gonads prevents him from speaking clearly and directly. All he is capable of is sneering and snarking-- "I've heard..." "People are saying..." "It looks like..."

What the ever-loving fuck?
The tweets aren't just designed to intimidate, although that's certainly partly the motive behind them; more than that, the tweets are Trump's way of asserting himself and projecting power. It's a message to all civil servants who oppose him or who blow whistles: "This is what will happen to you. And nothing will happen to me." It's also aimed at Republicans in the Senate. He's projecting strength and dominance, which fires up the voters upon whom some senators will depend to get re-elected next fall. It's a message from a tribal leader, intended to unite the tribe. Classic Roy Cohn type stuff.
  #4810  
Old 11-16-2019, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
Ok, others have noticed this:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...-roger-stoned/

And I see two more possible lies reported on the same website:

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...staffer-video/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...secutor-video/

The Democrats made a big mistake promoting her from the secret to the public hearing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by septimus View Post
@ Jim Peebles — Supposing that we stipulate that the charges against Ms. Yovanovitch are true, how would you compare her perjuries with the crimes that Donald Trump is charged with?
That’s some serious gaslighting, especially the last one. That one involves the bogus “do not prosecute” list that she allegedly gave the prosecutor. Which he retracted.
But according to this bombshell, He denies that he never retracted the list!.

All this Ukrainian stuff is going to provide lots of opportunities for gaslighting. Yovanovitch discussed the “do not prosecute” stuff in deeper detail in her closed door testimony. In that country, corrupt prosecutors frequently target innocent people for both political and business/financial reasons. Part of the “cleaning up corruption” mandate involves squelching this type of corrupt law enforcement activity.

But these efforts can easily be swung back around and “tried to stop so and so from being prosecuted” sounds bad, on its face. Especially when you’re dealing with an audience that doesn’t understand the former USSR. Because Lutsenko, Lestchenko, same difference, right?

Frankly, because of this, I know that there’s no way to get Trump’s much deserved impeachment and removal based on the Zelensky shakedown. (Unless Zelensky decides otherwise, if he complained on the world stage about being strong-armed that would be a game changer).

But the Republicans still have a problem, because it’s blindingly obvious that Trump does not differentiate between his own self-interest and US interests. So he’s going to keep his minions running around the world doing stupid vengeful stuff, and Vlad is going to feed him enough disinformation to keep it interesting. It’s not ending with this.

Last edited by Ann Hedonia; 11-16-2019 at 09:18 AM.
  #4811  
Old 11-16-2019, 09:58 AM
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CNN: After private White House meeting, Giuliani associate Lev Parnas said he was on a 'secret mission' for Trump, sources say
Quote:
At one point during the party that night, Parnas and Fruman slipped out of a large reception room packed with hundreds of Trump donors to have a private meeting with the President and Giuliani, according to two acquaintances in whom Parnas confided right after the meeting.
...
According to those two confidants, Parnas said that "the big guy," as he sometimes referred to the President in conversation, talked about tasking him and Fruman with what Parnas described as "a secret mission" to pressure the Ukrainian government to investigate Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

In the days immediately following the meeting, Parnas insinuated to the two people he confided in that he clearly believed he'd been given a special assignment by the President; like some sort of "James Bond mission," according to one of the people.

To Parnas, the chain of command was clear: Giuliani would issue the President's directives while Parnas, who speaks fluent Russian, would be an on-the-ground investigator alongside Fruman, who has numerous business contacts in Ukraine.
  #4812  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:15 AM
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Won't McConnel simply call for an immediate vote and Trump be acquitted?
  #4813  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by galen ubal View Post
Your source is The Gateway Pundit?
This Gateway Pundit?
Seems like they "notice" a lot of things that are untrue.
The Gateway Pundit is quite possibly the worst thing to have come from St. Louis. It makes me ashamed of my beloved home town.
  #4814  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:48 AM
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Trump tweets quote from "Rush L", presumably Rush Limbaugh, describing Yovanovitch, Taylor and Kent as part of "the Swamp" that needs to be "drained".
  #4815  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:53 AM
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Given CNN's knack for shooting themselves in the foot, I'm going to guess that they haven't double-checked anything that their acquaintance of Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump is saying, and that this will come back to bite them and anyone that falls for it.
  #4816  
Old 11-16-2019, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Walken After Midnight View Post
Trump tweets quote from "Rush L", presumably Rush Limbaugh, describing Yovanovitch, Taylor and Kent as part of "the Swamp" that needs to be "drained".
The Republicans seem to have decided at some point that "swamp" wasn't corruption, it's "non-faithful Trump loyalists".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoils_system
  #4817  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:15 AM
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Won't McConnel simply call for an immediate vote and Trump be acquitted?
Interesting but unconfirmed, it's rumored McConnell doesn't have the votes to do that. More unrest in his caucus over this than is perhaps publicly known.

Of course, he will do his best to make the Senate trial a joke and will simultaneously sideline a number of Democratic candidates for president. That will allow Trump and his minions to focus their efforts and money on dirtying up Biden.
  #4818  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:32 AM
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Won't McConnel simply call for an immediate vote and Trump be acquitted?
I suspect the end result will be acquittal, but why rush it? Senator McConnell should drag the trial out through February, March, maybe even April. Keep Sanders, Warren, Harris, Spartacus, Klobuchar, and Bennet tied up in hearings the whole time. Basically, clear the field for Biden. At the same time, use the subpoena power that Schiff has denied Republicans in the House to bring Hunter Biden, Eric Ciaramella, Schiff, etc. before the Senate and focus on Biden's corruption and the "political-motivated witch hunt" nature of the impeachment proceedings in the House. Pound Biden over and over again for the impropriety with Burisma and the extortion he used to have the prosecutor fired. Then, after all that, call for the vote and queue the "Trump exonerated, no bribery" talking points. Seems like a cake walk from there to victory in November.

ETA: I see Aspenglow beat me to the punch.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-16-2019 at 11:33 AM.
  #4819  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:35 AM
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I suspect the end result will be acquittal, but why rush it? Senator McConnell should drag the trial out through February, March, maybe even April. Keep Sanders, Warren, Harris, Spartacus, Klobuchar, and Bennet tied up in hearings the whole time. Basically, clear the field for Biden. At the same time, use the subpoena power that Schiff has denied Republicans in the House to bring Hunter Biden, Eric Ciaramella, Schiff, etc. before the Senate and focus on Biden's corruption and the "political-motivated witch hunt" nature of the impeachment proceedings in the House. Pound Biden over and over again for the impropriety with Burisma and the extortion he used to have the prosecutor fired. Then, after all that, call for the vote and queue the "Trump exonerated, no bribery" talking points. Seems like a cake walk from there to victory in November.
If Hunter Biden actually testified, what’s the hope? He doesn't explain his role as a Board Member well? They’ll never call him to testify because, as far as I can tell, he has nothing to be defensive about.

Last edited by Procrustus; 11-16-2019 at 11:35 AM.
  #4820  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by HurricaneDitka View Post
I suspect the end result will be acquittal, but why rush it? Senator McConnell should drag the trial out through February, March, maybe even April. Keep Sanders, Warren, Harris, Spartacus, Klobuchar, and Bennet tied up in hearings the whole time. Basically, clear the field for Biden. At the same time, use the subpoena power that Schiff has denied Republicans in the House to bring Hunter Biden, Eric Ciaramella, Schiff, etc. before the Senate and focus on Biden's corruption and the "political-motivated witch hunt" nature of the impeachment proceedings in the House. Pound Biden over and over again for the impropriety with Burisma and the extortion he used to have the prosecutor fired. Then, after all that, call for the vote and queue the "Trump exonerated, no bribery" talking points. Seems like a cake walk from there to victory in November.

ETA: I see Aspenglow beat me to the punch.
While that is, certainly, a strategy for trying to throw things in Trump's direction, I fail to see how it is advantageous for citizens?

If you want, for example, a government that does things that make sense and that aren't stupid then I would suggest that if you've packed it with people who do things that don't make sense except in terms of abusing rubes, in the name of doing what is stupid.... Well that seems like you're just going to get a lot of stupid legislation that only seems any good to rubes.

So unless you are a rube, I fail to see how this would somehow be good. And even if you are, it might appeal to you but that still doesn't stop it from being stupid.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-16-2019 at 11:46 AM.
  #4821  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:43 AM
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If Hunter Biden actually testified, what’s the hope? He doesn't explain his role as a Board Member well? They’ll never call him to testify because, as far as I can tell, he has nothing to be defensive about.
PBS - WATCH: Yovanovitch: Hunter Biden’s Burisma role could raise ‘appearance of a conflict of interest’
  #4822  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:46 AM
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While that is, certainly, a strategy for trying to throw things in Trump's direction, I fail to see how it is advantageous for citizens?
A politically-motivated impeachment attempt will have failed. I consider that "advantageous for citizens".
  #4823  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:53 AM
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A politically-motivated impeachment attempt will have failed. I consider that "advantageous for citizens".
Has there ever been a politically-motivated impeachment attempt that failed?
  #4824  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:53 AM
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Interesting but unconfirmed, it's rumored McConnell doesn't have the votes to do that. More unrest in his caucus over this than is perhaps publicly known.

Of course, he will do his best to make the Senate trial a joke and will simultaneously sideline a number of Democratic candidates for president. That will allow Trump and his minions to focus their efforts and money on dirtying up Biden.
Perhaps it's been explained elsewhere, but once it hits the Senate, isn't Roberts in charge? Isn't McConnell basically the jury foreman at that point? Won't it be up to the CJ to decide the pace?
  #4825  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:55 AM
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Perhaps it's been explained elsewhere, but once it hits the Senate, isn't Roberts in charge? Isn't McConnell basically the jury foreman at that point? Won't it be up to the CJ to decide the pace?
I don't think Chief Justice Roberts gets control over the Senate calendar.
  #4826  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:57 AM
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The “appearance of a conflict of interest” isn’t sexy enough for anyone to give a shit. Trump and him family have actual serious conflicts on interests and the country shrugs.
  #4827  
Old 11-16-2019, 11:58 AM
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Is it your expectation/assumption that overwhelmingly Democratic and progressive voters will fall in line to protect and defend (at any cost) any possible impropriety that is found related to the Bidens, the way that 80-90% of Republicans fall in line to protect the well documented improprieties of Trump & Co.?

I don't speak for all progressives (obviously) but I suspect dems/libs will not line up behind wrongdoing as readily and willingly as reps/cons have demonstrated time and time again. You not the least among them.
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  #4828  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:03 PM
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Perhaps it's been explained elsewhere, but once it hits the Senate, isn't Roberts in charge? Isn't McConnell basically the jury foreman at that point? Won't it be up to the CJ to decide the pace?
From the Senate's website:

Quote:
A committee of representatives, called “managers,” acts as prosecutors before the Senate. The Senate Chamber serves as the courtroom. The Senate becomes jury and judge, except in the case of presidential impeachment trials when the chief justice of the United States presides.
I believe Justice Roberts fulfills the role of the judge, calling balls and strikes re objections and issues of admissible evidence, witnesses, etc.

Here's a more "read friendly" overview from Buzzfeed. Interestingly, it's the White House lawyers who act as defense counsel. I wonder who they will find.

Sorry, Happy. To answer your direct question, McConnell has already announced that if there is a Senate trial, it will run 6 days a week for half days (I can't remember if he said mornings or afternoons), recessed only on Sundays.

Last edited by Aspenglow; 11-16-2019 at 12:06 PM.
  #4829  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:05 PM
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Interestingly, it's the White House lawyers who act as defense counsel. I wonder who they will find.
Please god, let it be Rudy
  #4830  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:11 PM
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Please god, let it be Rudy
LOL, you read my mind... but of course we both know it will not be Rudy. I wonder if Cipollone is any good at trial. I mean, if he's as good at trying cases as Steve Menashi, it should go well.
  #4831  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:13 PM
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As an entertainment, perhaps. Let’s not forget, though, that the fix is already in as regards the jury.
  #4832  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:15 PM
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Hunter Biden being on that board looks bad? Yeah, fer sure, it does. And Il Douche could have got some mileage out of that from sheer innuendo and insinuation. Not enough for him, so here we are. Dumb sumbitch.
  #4833  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:20 PM
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The "do not prosecute list" is discussed beginning at 1 minute 33 seconds here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fiRZ1gdh1s4
Here the main source of news on the list, John Solomon, points out that there is also testimony by others that pressure was applied to prevent prosecutions. (I guess he is talking about the secret nonpublic testimony. Or it is in transcripts that have been released from the nonpublic hearings that more energetic Dopers can track down for us.)
  #4834  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:26 PM
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Is it your expectation/assumption that overwhelmingly Democratic and progressive voters will fall in line to protect and defend (at any cost) any possible impropriety that is found related to the Bidens, the way that 80-90% of Republicans fall in line to protect the well documented improprieties of Trump & Co.?

I don't speak for all progressives (obviously) but I suspect dems/libs will not line up behind wrongdoing as readily and willingly as reps/cons have demonstrated time and time again. You not the least among them.
As an Illinoisan, I find some interesting parallels between Trump and Rod Blagojevich.

One major difference though seems to be in how Democrats -- members of Blago's party -- reacted to his wrongdoing. The Illinois House voted 114-1 with 3 abstentions to impeach Blagojevich. He was removed from office and prohibited from ever holding public office in the state of Illinois again, by two separate and unanimous votes of 59–0 by the Illinois Senate.
  #4835  
Old 11-16-2019, 12:34 PM
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One thing really needs to be said about the new revelations that really irks me...

People suck who listen to their cellphone in a restaurant sooooo loud, they have to hold it away from their ear and everyone can hear, instead of just turning down the volume. Serendipity does not make it alright.
  #4836  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:02 PM
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I can't imagine anyone is in a hurry to make this about useless kids of prominent politicians getting jobs and influence they don't otherwise deserve.

And that's not just a jab at Trump. I'm sure plenty of Congresspeople on both sides have useless children in positions they don't deserve.
  #4837  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:11 PM
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A politically-motivated impeachment attempt will have failed. I consider that "advantageous for citizens".
Given how partisan Congress is, I can't deny that it's terribly likely that their principal concern is to make a partisan win.

But say that the little boy cried wolf for the fourth time and, by happenstance, there actually was a wolf there. Should you ignore the wolf, just to spite the boy?

There's a concept of kids not eating their food, because they're angry at their parents. Personally, as a kid, I never understood that. If I don't eat, then I'm hungry, and my parents haven't been punished. I have punished myself. That's stupid. There are infinitely better and more successful ways to annoy your parents.

If you have a hatred of partisan politics:

a) Being equally partisan just seems like you're practicing a sort of blind self-loathing. I'd recommend getting over that.
b) The solution isn't to ignore the crime of trying to corrupt our elections so that they give advantage to ever more and worse politicians than we already have, just to spite the Democrats, it's to vote for people who aren't corrupt and partisan.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-16-2019 at 01:12 PM.
  #4838  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:16 PM
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The "do not prosecute list" is discussed beginning at 1 minute 33 seconds here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fiRZ1gdh1s4
Here the main source of news on the list, John Solomon, points out that there is also testimony by others that pressure was applied to prevent prosecutions. (I guess he is talking about the secret nonpublic testimony. Or it is in transcripts that have been released from the nonpublic hearings that more energetic Dopers can track down for us.)
Why don't you just read the transcript yourself? It's been available to the public for almost 2 weeks now.

And John Solomon is not a reliable source. Nor is Sean Hannity.
  #4839  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:18 PM
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Jesus Christ the JAQing in this thread. It doesn't matter how he thinks she compares to Trump. It's a matter of witness credibility. Which has already been addressed some posts back. You're perfectly capable of making your own argument instead of asking other people to make it for you.
I'll guess you completely misinterpreted the intent of the question I directed at Mr. Peebles.
  #4840  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:24 PM
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For all the talk about the WB and first or second hand witnesses, why isn't there more of a push to have the actual full verbatim version of the call transcript released?

This seems like a no brainier for both sides: everyone defending Trump says he did nothing wrong, so the actual transcript would be exonerating. Right?

Why aren't the Dems demanding the real transcript?
  #4841  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by DoctorJ View Post
I can't imagine anyone is in a hurry to make this about useless kids of prominent politicians getting jobs and influence they don't otherwise deserve.

And that's not just a jab at Trump. I'm sure plenty of Congresspeople on both sides have useless children in positions they don't deserve.
Rep. John Ratcliffe appears more than willing to. You don't really think he's utterly alone in that regard, or that he doesn't have Senate counterparts that feel similarly, do you?
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Old 11-16-2019, 01:41 PM
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Is it your expectation/assumption that overwhelmingly Democratic and progressive voters will fall in line to protect and defend (at any cost) any possible impropriety that is found related to the Bidens...
Not at all. To the contrary, I suspect the public airing of Bidens' dirty laundry will peel off some of his current supporters, probably enough to cost him Minnesota at least. That it'll be happening at the very moment that his chief rivals for the nomination are tied up and prevented from campaigning is ... what was the word tampora used ... serendipity.

Last edited by HurricaneDitka; 11-16-2019 at 01:44 PM.
  #4843  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:41 PM
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Any House Rep or Senator supposedly focused on nepotism who is ignoring or defending the Trump family is not actually interested in nepotism.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-16-2019 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 01:43 PM
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Rep. John Ratcliffe appears more than willing to. You don't really think he's utterly alone in that regard, or that he doesn't have Senate counterparts that feel similarly, do you?

Well, that's one, count 'em, one. And we are supposed to supply the rest? Maybe there are more, maybe there are not. So?

Last edited by elucidator; 11-16-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
For all the talk about the WB and first or second hand witnesses, why isn't there more of a push to have the actual full verbatim version of the call transcript released?

This seems like a no brainier for both sides: everyone defending Trump says he did nothing wrong, so the actual transcript would be exonerating. Right?

Why aren't the Dems demanding the real transcript?
I've wondered the same thing, but I don't know that there is an "actual full verbatim version of the call transcript". The transcipt-like memo might be the most complete version in existence.
  #4846  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Any House Rep or Senator supposedly focused on nepotism who is ignoring or defending the Trump family is not actually interested in nepotism.
As I'm sure you know, rank hypocrisy is a far more highly prized characteristic of Trump Republicans than intellectual honesty.
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Old 11-16-2019, 01:53 PM
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Why don't you just read the transcript yourself? It's been available to the public for almost 2 weeks now.

And John Solomon is not a reliable source. Nor is Sean Hannity.
Solomon was talking about testimony from others, not Yovanovitch. Can you provide us link(s) to that? You should note: I don't consider arguments of the form "So-and-so is not a reliable source" to carry much weight. What in specific about what they said in the video do you disagree with? Too often I find people use the "not a reliable source" smear to influence people not to look at valid sources that are simply reporting facts they want hidden.
  #4848  
Old 11-16-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post
For all the talk about the WB and first or second hand witnesses, why isn't there more of a push to have the actual full verbatim version of the call transcript released?

This seems like a no brainier for both sides: everyone defending Trump says he did nothing wrong, so the actual transcript would be exonerating. Right?

Why aren't the Dems demanding the real transcript?
Based on the testimony from Vindman, there is no real transcript and the one we have is more or less the one that he saw back when it was put together plus or minus a word or two.

The description of Vindman's testimony that described it as though there was a purposeful gathering to corrupt the document was a falsehood, probably created by Schiff - though it's not impossible that Team Trump did it to try and frame the Democrats.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-16-2019 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 11-16-2019, 02:04 PM
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Based on the testimony from Vindman, there is no real transcript and the one we have is more or less the one that he saw back when it was put together minus a few things.

The description of Vindman's testimony that described it as though there was a purposeful gathering to corrupt the document was a falsehood, probably created by Schiff - though it's not impossible that Team Trump did it to try and frame the Democrats.
There is a more complete transcript. It is what Trump hid in the super sekrit squirrel server that is supposed to be reserved solely for utmost classified information.

There is an entire process used to prepare a complete transcript. It involves a transcriber, similar to a court reporter, making a verbatim transcript of what he/she heard on the call. The transcript is then reviewed by others who were on the actual call for accuracy and corrections, if any. Vindman offered two corrections about information he had heard that was missing from the verbatim transcript, and those were not adopted. But a more complete transcript does exist, and even though it is not classified, Trump has not released it.

Your dislike of Adam Schiff is apparent in many of your posts. Schiff did not lie when he said there was an effort to corrupt the document. That's what Vindman actually testified to in his deposition, that his, Vindman's, corrections were left out of the final version of the official transcript. Your overreach to air your Schiff grievance is tedious and incorrect.
  #4850  
Old 11-16-2019, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Peebles View Post
Solomon was talking about testimony from others, not Yovanovitch. Can you provide us link(s) to that? You should note: I don't consider arguments of the form "So-and-so is not a reliable source" to carry much weight. What in specific about what they said in the video do you disagree with? Too often I find people use the "not a reliable source" smear to influence people not to look at valid sources that are simply reporting facts they want hidden.
One might also note that a biased source can give truthful information.

Ultimately, you have to do legwork to verify things, sometimes.

Solomon is trash, though. I mean, granted, I don't have the feet on the ground to evaluate Ukrainian sources so if someone has been arrested or fired for corruption, I have no way of knowing if that person was actually corrupt or simply got on the wrong side of a political argument.

But Solomon's sources were all pretty damn questionable looking and his articles smelled heavily of "Look, I found the one guy who says that his grandad knew a guy who thought he
saw the man in the grassy knoll. What if JFK was assassinated by someone else?"

They were very heavy on tone and light on direct or even tertiary evidence. And, as said, the people giving that evidence didn't look too believable.

The best way for journalists to lie, and not get hammered for libel, is to factually quote a person who is telling them a lie.

Last edited by Sage Rat; 11-16-2019 at 02:06 PM.
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